Wasn't the Netherlands considered a paragon of tolerance?

[_Jumper_]

What happened?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/farright/story/0,11981,711452,00.html

<The Netherlands' image as a tolerant and liberal society has been dealt a blow by a new opinion poll which shows that almost one in two young Dutch voters favours zero Muslim immigration, and more than a third plan to vote for an openly racist far-right politician in this year's general election.

Forty-six per cent of the 18- to 30-year-olds polled favoured zero Muslim immigration, while 36% of the young women and 46% of young men questioned said that they planned to vote for the controversial far-right politician Pim Fortuyn. The poll was carried out by a Dutch weekly, Nieuwe Revu.>

[Rowdyboy]

1. Perhaps you might try living

in their society before you begin lobbing stones...

[LittleApple81]

2. The Netherlands is a VERY SMALL country. The impact

of immigration by a group that does not assimilate can be enormous.

[Dagaz]

3. Do you live in California?

You sound like you have experience in this area.

[_Jumper_]

5. What ethnicity are you?

How long did it take your ethinc group or ethnic groups to assimilate? It takes well over half a century to happen.

[izzie]

20. I do not count as the family were all English or few Scots.

We were here doing all the good and the bad since 1620. I am not un-american because I say some bad. Their was a lot of bad to go with the good. I did marry into a family that did not like this as they just came into country and felt the hate that was here.Now they are the ones that wish to keep people out. You figure it out.

[_Jumper_]

4. Muslims are just 3% of the population there

n/m

[rman]

26. it's more like 50% in many big cities

3% is the average. though it's more like 10%

[_Jumper_]

43. 3% is the CIA number

The 10% figure may be the % of immigrants.

[izzie]

18. 40 miles in some places from border to border.

:grouphug:

[rman]

25. i live there, i see no stones being lobbed

the topic starter asked a legitimate question.

[Kamika]

29. i agree

Facts are even if they are unpleasant , that the majority of street violence, assaults etc are by middle east immigrants in most of western europe.

I visited sweden(stockholm) some years ago and was told that i shouldnt walk late in the suburbs or so because there were immigrant youth gangs walking around taking ppls cellphones etc.


If immigrants doesnt assimilate they create a subsociety and all sub societies are a danger for the country.


Thats one thing thats great about america, when my parents came here from south korea they were basicly told.. get used to our society or get the hell out(well not in those words), so they opened a restaurant and made good money and in every way adapted, and im in every way american altough im very aware of my ethnicity.

in europe they give immigrants wellfare, often more then they would earn by honest work in their native countries. Not encouraging them at all to adapt.


(disclaimer) i feel i need one here so i dont get banned or anything.. i have absolutely nothing against muslims.. its just that the immigrants in this case are muslims. Same thing about adapting goes for all kinds of immigrants. If they dont adapt and grow a large sub society in any way they are a danger for their new country, whether they are muslims, christians, americans, or whatever.

[DemExpat]

31. Absolutely, Kamika.....

The Dutch welfare system has been far too lenient and 'nurturing' to ALL immigrants IMO, but it seems to be the Middle Eastern groups who want to stay separate the most. I believe that this stems from religious principles and laws.

But in Holland they are not the only group of immigrant youths who cause trouble - Antillian youths do their share as well....but they are not exactly 'immigrants' as they have free entry into Holland because of the colonial ties.

We as Americans all stem from immigrants - my father was born in Scotland, and my mother is mixed from other Western European countries. They and their families did all they could to join American society and culture while retaining their roots. And I realize that Europeans are not so 'different' from the dominant American culture, but your family shows that other ethnic groups assimilate as well.

DemEx

[_Jumper_]

36. Read what you said

Pat Buchanan easily could have posted the same thing about crime, welfare, and subcultures about Hispanic immigrants in America and African-Americans.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

48. yes, but it's partially true

The reason we had such a bloody civil rights fight was because former slaves and their children and grandchildren were never allowed to assimilate, and instead faced apartheid in the form of "seperate by (un)equal" and unrelenting terrorism.

The problems of factionalism and non-assimilation is all too real. When people are shunted into ghettos, usually by force, sometimes by choice, it's going to be a disaster.

[_Jumper_]

52. I didn't dispute that

I just think that we should hold European xenophobes to the same standard we hold American xenophobes.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

54. but just calling them xenophobes doesn't address their concerns

and some of their concerns are valid. I imagine there are a number of the LGBT community that are as scared of fundamentalists as they are here. In our case, our fundies are home-grown, but in Holland they are immigrants.

Garden variety xenophobia and bigotry can be dealt with, but when you have organized demonization of immigrants, absolutely you are right. But we have to address the concerns of those people that are attracted to those racist campaign, so they aren't taken in by hate.

What worked in the US? Integration and affirmative action, so far that's the only thing that has.

[_Jumper_]

55. I agree

n/m

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

57. The US military is one of the most successfully integrated institutions

in America, one of the reasons I like Clark and I assume the reason he supports affirmative action. :) From what I understand they did it through strict affirmative action, what publicans would demonize as "quotas" now. Then again, in the military they have quotas for everything, so it wasn't really out of place.

[_Jumper_]

59. I think she means social integration

When off duty in the military blacks and whites still segregate.

[Kamika]

56. About affirmative action

Im a minority and im really against affirmative action, the best thing to intigrate immigrants is to treat them eactly like an american no more, no less.



Btw i dont see how ppl can say these guys are xenophobic, did you see for example the documentary a french algerian did when he managed to infiltrate a french arabic group.. they were talking about how they would make europe islamic, how it was ok to lye to europeans since they were infidels, or how the women were whores.. etc etc.. and this was no minority it was everyday group in mosques

They have a right to be suspicious.. whats great about america is that we practicly force ppl to get out there and work.. and trust me work is what works BEST to intigrate ppl. not sending them wellfare checks

(disclaimer) i feel i need one here so i dont get banned or anything.. i have absolutely nothing against muslims.. its just that the immigrants in this case are muslims. Same thing about adapting goes for all kinds of immigrants. If they dont adapt and grow a large sub society in any way they are a danger for their new country, whether they are muslims, christians, americans, or whatever

[_Jumper_]

58. Those were exteremists

Again, a similar argument can be made here. Many on the right cite fringe Mexican groups who say they are going to reconquer the Southwest for Mexico. Do you support Buchanan and co. when they claim that Mexicans are invaders trying to conquer a part of this nation for Mexico????

". Same thing about adapting goes for all kinds of immigrants. If they dont adapt and grow a large sub society in any way they are a danger for their new country"

Arguably Hispanics and African-Americans are large subsocieties in America. Do you feel right-wingers are justified in attacking those groups? Do you feel those two groups are dangerous? Or do you have one standard for Arabs and one for other minorities?

[Kamika]

61. They arent sub societies

Africans and hispanics are intigrated, sure they are very well aware of their ethnicity but they work and go to the same schools, and their views are what wed call american even though its from a certain point of view.


A sub society is when theres a whole group of ppl (hundreds) that doesnt go to school, dont pay tax, treat their women really different then others etc etc.


Americas only real sub society today is illegal immigrants. (and im not meaning they are bad or anything, if i could chose we would let anyone in who would work hard and be american

[_Jumper_]

63. Then you are just stereotyping

"A sub society is when theres a whole group of ppl (thousands) that doesnt go to school, dont pay tax, treat their women really different then others."

Step up to the plate and produce evidence backing that claim up. If not, you're just a racist who, like Freepers, just believes any negative thing about a group that confirms your prejudicies.

"Africans and hispanics are intigrated"

That is false. Look around. Mexicans and other large Hispanic groups segregate and have a distinct culture. The same is the case for African-Americans in general. Whites don't intermingle or intermarry much with these groups due to the lack of integration. Given that, do you think they are dangerous to America?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

60. I think you're wrong

"Im a minority and im really against affirmative action, the best thing to intigrate immigrants is to treat them eactly like an american no more, no less."

I agree with your idealism, but I don't think it works that way in the real world.

[Kamika]

62. i know this

If my parents had come here and gotten money from the state for doing nothing, they wouldnt even learnt english. They would absolutely not have sent me to a public school (something they still think was bad), and im not sure if they had opened our restaurant.

[_Jumper_]

64. Don't you realize that you sound just like Buchanan and co.?????????

They say the same thing about Hispanic immigrants!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

65. okay

handing out free money is usually a bad idea, I agree. Learning the language of the host country is vital, I agree with that too.

Affirmative action barely puts a dent in the nepotism that the employment world is based on. If we don't integrate all the diverse groups of people we have, it's going to cause huge problems.

I certainly don't have the answers...

[Imajika]

6. Well...

...the Netherlands will not always be tolerant. Public opinion changes back and forth. Some people have the idea that Europe is some permanent bastion of liberalism. It is not. For the moment most of Europe is more left of center than the United States. Times change. Twenty five years from now the exact opposite could be true.

I have lots of European friends, and immigration is building to be a bigger and bigger issue. Many of the Muslim immigrants are not assimilating well into European society - often by their own choice. A growing number of Europeans don't like it.

I notice many people on this forum think America is this backwards, racist society. True, many Americans are far from enlightenment and there are lots of racists rightwing nuts running about. But when compared to many nations, even European nations, the United States is actually surprisingly tolerant of most races and religions.

The majority of my travel is in Asia, and I can flat out say for certain that most of those countries are far more blantantly racist than America. Many nations are very homogeneous and make little attempt at hiding outright racism.

Imajika

[_Jumper_]

7. The Netherlands is a special case, though

It is, or at least was, considered the most tolerant nation on Earth by many people.

"Many of the Muslim immigrants are not assimilating well into European society - often by their own choice."

It takes a few generations to assimilate. It is unreasonable to expect assimilation overnight.

" have lots of European friends, and immigration is building to be a bigger and bigger issue."

It is an issue for the same reason it has been an issue here over the years: immigrants are convenient, powerless scapegoats. Immigrants make up a small share of the population in most of these nations yet they are blamed for everything.

"I notice many people on this forum think America is this backwards, racist society. True, many Americans are far from enlightenment and there are lots of racists rightwing nuts running about. But when compared to many nations, even European nations, the United States is actually surprisingly tolerant of most races and religions."

I concur.

[Imajika]

8. Jumper

"It is, or at least was, considered the most tolerant nation on Earth by many people."

Times change. Nothing lasts forever.

"It takes a few generations to assimilate. It is unreasonable to expect assimilation overnight."

Your right. Good point. But I have to tell you, without opening an entirely new can of worms, many Muslims really are not assimilating well in parts of Europe. Often peoples kneejerk reaction will be to immediately jump on the white Europeans for oppressing their new Muslim citizens and immigrants - but that is not the entire truth. Islamic communities in many countries are getting more radical and more detached from the rest of the societies in which they exist. And this began happening long before 9-11.

I am not saying these new immigrants won't assimilate over time, they might. But there is a growing perception of a certain unwillingness on their part to do so, and this pisses many Europeans off.

"It is an issue for the same reason it has been an issue here over the years: immigrants are convenient, powerless scapegoats. Immigrants make up a small share of the population in most of these nations yet they are blamed for everything."

I largely agree here. Infact, I think your point is mostly right on the mark when it comes to most immigrants. But I get back again to the sense that an increasing number of Europeans feel that the Muslim communities do not want to assimiliate to the European culture. Most Europeans are plenty willing to be tolerant, but they do not want Muslim enclaves appearing that do not accept and revere the liberally minded institutions and laws that have been established.

I would be willing to bet that the anti-Muslim immigrant feelings will continue to grow. You watch, Europeans will increasingly start voting for whatever party will restrict immigration - especially if the European economies don't pick up soon. Anti-immigrant feelings could very well lead to the rise of the right in Europe at some point.

Good points, and thanks for the response.

Imajika

[_Jumper_]

35. It is true to an extent

The question is whether most Muslim immigrants are assimilating. If most aren't than I see nothing wrong with reducing Muslim immigration. However, if the vast majority are then there is no problem IMO. Remember, the argument that immigrants aren't assimilating has always been a favorite argument of xenophobes. It is used today in America against Hispanic immigrants.

[AP]

38. Then we should kick out all those Native Americans from the US who never

bothered to assimilate to the US, eh?

I mean, what is that language they're speaking?

Do we even let Eskimos vote? Put them on an iceberg and ship 'em off to, uh, well, wherever they, uh, came from.

[_Jumper_]

40. Don't forget Hispanics and African-Americans

Many on the American right make the same arguments against Hispanic immigrants that are used against Arab immigrants in Europe. Similar arguments are used against African-Americans by the right.

[izzie]

21. You are right.

n/t

[QERTY]

28. America Is As Racist As Any Nation

It's just that we've forced the racists to be dishonest. In many other countries, there are no repurcussions for honest declarations of racism. Also, most other nations are homogeneous cultures where there is little or no possibility of a backlash for honest declarations of racism.
Do not be fooled, almost all Americans of all cultural segments harbor racist views, sometime unbeknownst to themselves. Some even have harshly racist view against their own subculture! Like me! White people suck!

[_Jumper_]

37. What is this based on?

Do you think all nations are equally racist?

[Paschall]

9. This story is from Feb, 2002, and Fortuyn has since been killed...

...by an assassin.

Next.

[Paschall]

13. Did I mention that the List Pim Fortuyn

...the party that continued after Fortuyn's death has garnered less than 6 percent of ballots in the last two elections in Holland?

[_Jumper_]

42. So what?

Dutch youth apparently are racist. That was the main issue here. If the youth are this racist imagine how racist middle-aged and elderly Dutch people are...

[AP]

10. The Netherlands has very lax business laws (most American companies

incorporating in Europe incorporate in the Netherlands). There has been a trend in Dutch politics: as it becomes more and more the Delaware of the EU, the RW is more aggressively exploiting wedge issues like anti-arab racism. I, for one, believe the two are linked. I think the RW politicians are getting lots of money from businesses who need conservative politicians to give them bigger and bigger legislative gifts. They're just exploiting the thing that is easiest to exploint in Dutch culture -- Arab immigration.

[DemExpat]

15. But AP....campaigns here are nothing like in the States....

no huge media blitzes etc....just a few posters around town is about it. Perhaps one series of state-paid debates right before elections.

People voted in a Center-Right government because they were most disastisifed with 8 years of Labor.....and getting more worried about the influx of Muslim immigrants who do seem more unwilling to assimilate as well as other groups.
(But because of the economy and this government's cutbacks, polls show that people would now vote to get labor back......fickle, these Dutchmen! :-))

Right wing parties might have latched onto this issue, but I think Imajika's view of the situation is right on the mark.

Add to this the population density of this country compared to others....the many social problems are difficult to ignore.

Since they are the most visible group here (with women's head covers), the fastest growing group as well.....through immigration, family unifying policies, and birthrates, the Dutch are not too pleased.

Perhaps because most Muslims here come from very conservative villages (farmers) they are more reluctant to assimilate in the super-modern/super liberal society here, but the contrast is enormous, and the Dutch do not want their civil liberties, principles of law and order, and very liberal social policies weakened by extreme conservative ones, many based on Islamic laws.

They are suspicious about where this could lead to in future - being a democracy.

DemEx

[AP]

30. I stand by my theory.

Business law is becoming increasingly important to large corporations. Millions are at stake. I see a huge correlation between the increasing significance of big business legislation in the Netherlands and the rise of the parties on the right.

Even if you don't need money to run an election, money can be used to buy a public perception of a "problem" in society which leads to people voting for right wingers. Throughout history, the social issues have always been wedge issues which are used to get people to vote for parties which help people make more money. It's always about the money.

DemE.P., I know that you have said in the past that you have some sympathy for the anti-immigration sentiment. I want you to think about where you started gettting those ideas. I bet you don't realize it, but at the root of those perceptions, is probably a guilder put up by a big business.

[DemExpat]

32. I think that a large % of the Dutch have anti-immigrant sympathies now

unfortunate as it may be. The left -wing government had excellent ties with business, so I really don't believe that in Holland's case that your theory fits.

It has been the growing perception that some groups of immigrants are very reluctant to accept Dutch ideas, laws, freedoms, and principles -while taking full advantage of the over-generous welfare policies that has caused this sentiment to arise.
Serious social problems are coming from this situation.
During the 8 year reign of the left-wing government, absolutely NO public discussion of these problems was allowed - it was racist and not politically correct. Thank goodness it now is being discussed....by Dutch AND by immigrants.

The young Dutch people have this attitude, the adults have this, and the older folks as well.
Hopefully something will be decided about immigration on the EU level to keep borders open for incomers, while limiting the flow and demanding some responsibility to our culture(s) as well as ours for theirs.

DemEx

[AP]

33. Holland wouldn't be what it is today if not for liberals helping business

But the more they helped business, the more money there is at stake. And the more the right wingers want to serve those interests.

Dem, what I'm saying isn't far-fetched. Historically, this is what happens all over the world.

We've had long exchanges about this before, I don't have the energy to do it again. I just want you to think hard about where you've gotten your ideas about immigration.

I'm not saying there wasn't in place many elements ready to be exploited. However, I would be extremely surprised if the money behind figuring out how to exploit them effectively didn't come from big business looking for even more protection of their hegemony and profits from right wing parties.

[DemExpat]

34. I appreciate your ideas....and they surely have some merit

but I know that MY feelings about this situation began when I noticed how the left-wing lock on political discussion about immigrants stifled all expression of unease.....
I live in a town where the Dutch are the minority now....just as in Amsterdam and Rotterdam. This is a tiny country, and the rest of Holland is watching this demographic development with less than eagerness for this process to envelop the whole country....

That is all I am saying here.

But you are right that business is having more of a say about all of our worlds at present....

Another factor is that when the economy was humming, there was less need for protest as there was 'plenty' of money to go around....it's now a different story altogether, and since Hollnad has such an enormous social system, how the (now limited) money is handed out is coming under scrutiny.


DemEx

[janekat]

11. Whoa - that is quite surprising... It WAS one of the most liberal

countries. I'll have to look in to this. (I'm of Dutch descent and have relatives there....) I was always proud of their tolerance (even thought of moving there).

[screaming_meme]

12. The Dutch shouldn't tolerate the intolerant

Muslims cramp their style.

[wuushew]

14. Please use <sarcasism> tags unless purposesly trying to be racist

n/t

[REP]

16. Grain of Truth

Part of what some Dutch object to is how some conservative Muslims treat women. That is simply not acceptable in Dutch society, and I can't see what's wrong with that. If there were group of immigrants who treated blacks as chattel, would we be tut-tutting the Dutch refusal to tolerate that?

Edit: improper use of the subjunctive. Sheesh, I must be sick.

[izzie]

24. What is a sarcasism tag?

n/t

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

19. Since you consider Stalin a Liberal

I'm not sure that I can define Tolerance in a way you will understand....

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[_Jumper_]

39. Only a racist would care about that

If non-whites assimilate only racists would care about the white share of the population.

[rman]

23. tolerance is required in the face of lack of respect

Think about it: "tolerate" What?
Things/behaviour one would rather not see.

When people respect each other (or rather, do not disrespect each other), then there's not much need to "tolerate".

Tolerance is the *second* line of defence against popular unrest; we had to fall back on that because the first line of defence (respect) has failed.

Besides, things changed not to long ago when we elected a conservative/religious government. Far-RW elements seem to feel... encouraged.
Before that we had a RW/LW coalition which was to much middle of the road for many; with the Left supporting, not opposing privatisation of al kinds of government activities.

Both coalition and opposition now want election districts like in the US, whithout even bothering to explain which problem it is that is solved by doing that.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[im4edwards]

41. I always thought that it was tolerance of drugs and sex

not people. As my dutch friend was fond of pointing out, "if you're not dutch, you're not much". Hes a nice guy but very nationalistic and very intolerant toward other nationalities or races. I'm not suggesting that this is common among all dutch people.

[MrPrax]

51. Yeah same thing here...

I was looking at the thread and wondering--well they are tolerant of drugs and sex in ONE province of the Netherlands, but the Dutch are insanely conservative people...
They founded South Africa for Gawd sakes...

[im4edwards]

53. true, for their size they're very wealthy. Very.

n/t

[AP]

44. Jumper, why are you so fascinated with these superificial fault lines in..

liberal ideology.

Although, I recognize that they appear to be inconsistencies, I think they aren't worthy of the level of confusion you seem to have over them. I've read a couple of your posts, and they have sort of a faux-ignorant tone. Like you really have no idea how something can be. That's fine outside DU, and I recognize that lots of DUers haven't considered these issues before. However, you seem to be really persistent even after the issues have been explained really well.

I just wonder if we could have a meta-moment here, and we could talk about why you're so interested in these issues.

(I may actually have you confused with another poster--appologies if I do.)

[_Jumper_]

45. You do

I haven't attacked liberal ideology.

[AP]

46. I probably do...

...but, to be clear, I wasn't saying that it was an attack. I was saying that whomever was doing it was pretending they didn't understand, and pretending that it was some kind of fault line which revealed contradictions, the discussiono of which then seemed to undermine liberal principles.

[_Jumper_]

49. That isn't me

I'm not a regular poster here. I usually post only about tolerance and foreign affairs issues. I don't undermine liberalism and don't really post about any issues other than the two aforementioned ones.

[QC]

47. What if large numbers of Southern Baptists moved to San Francisco

and began agitating to repeal the domestic partnership and civil rights laws, close the gay clubs, preached against the city's gay population, etc?

I suspect most of us here would understand why the liberal majority in San Francisco would not be pleased. Some people might even say that since these people knew what San Francisco was like before they went there, they really have no basis to complain.

As I remember from the news coverage, a good bit of Pim's support came from such a fear as this--that large numbers of very conservative immigrants would change the country's social atmosphere, one that most Dutch are very happy with as it is.

One can argue the merits of that case, but I do not think that it is necessarily racist or anti-Muslim.

[_Jumper_]

50. It isn't necessarily racist or anti-Muslim

However, the arguments against them are the essentially the same ones used against Hispanic immigrants in America. If we denounce Pat Buchanan as a racist why hold European right-wingers to a different, lower standard?