Who's Taking Blame for Christian Violence?

[blue sky at night]

This very topic was on my mind the other day when I emailed my Pastor, truly where is the Outcry? Here is an excerpt and a link:
by Calvin White
Now that imams in Britain and Canada are standing up and publicly condemning terrorist acts as anti-Muslim and against the teachings in the Qur'an, I wonder if pressure might be put on Christian leaders to take a similar stand.

Contrary to what some might like to insist, Christianity is not the religion of "an eye for an eye" but it is the religion of Jesus, who refined those earlier directions and distilled the ten commandments into two. One was to "love thy neighbor as thyself." Pretty definitive isn't it? As is the edict of turning the other cheek.

Jesus expected to be betrayed. He expected to be arrested by the authorities. There was no exhortations to prepare for battle. There was no bloody attempt to stop the proceedings.

Even as Jesus was brutalized while carrying his own crucifixion cross and being nailed onto the timbers, there was no violent counterforce from his disciples. Not even an outcry.

No matter where one reads in the accounts of Jesus, the only conclusion one can come to is that Jesus was about love.

So where are the Christian leaders when it comes to violent actions by our Western leaders? Where are the televangelists, who every Sunday take over the airwaves to trumpet the message of Jesus, when it comes to taking on bunker busting bombs and mass carnage?

http://www.progress.org/2005/christ04.htm

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beaver Tail]

2. I know many Christians as I am one myself

We all reject the abuses that are happening in our society as anti-Christian. I agree whole heartedly that high level Priests, Ministers, Bishops and so on are definitely doing little to publicly denounce the treatment of our friends of Islam. To do so is a failing of our Christian Leaders.

Saying "what these so-called-Christians are doing is wrong" from the pulpit is not good enough. I will certainly go to my Priest this Sunday and ask him directly "who do I need to speak with in Canada to try to push him and get him to denounce these evil actis in a public statement".

[xchrom]

3. progressive christian leaders need to confront

fundie leaders directly before we can move on to critisizing ''our leaders''.

fundamentalism and bcakwards conservatism that is promulgated as ''christian'' is the first problem..

there needs to be less fear schism -- embrace the change and move on.
let the people know that real christianity rejects violent minded tactics such ''pre-emptive war''.

[fishwax]

9. I agree completely

there's a new organization of progressive christians forming (again), and I hope that they raise a strong enough voice to do just that. The huge mass of those who profess faith but are ill-informed politically need an alternative when it comes to the Christian message.

I know too many people who are not very up on the nuances of issues and may or may not be well-versed in the actual scripture of christianity, but they think of themselves as christians, and so when "christian" voices speak about various issues and are entirely unchallenged in the media, they trust those voices. Our country needs alternate christian voices, and desperately.

[Kerrytravelers]

4. Excellent. Thank you. As a Catholic myself, I ask these questions daily.

I have yet to find a Catholic church in my area of my blue city, my blue county and my blue state who had the courage to take this on as loudly as those who go to Mass to beat the drums of war and invasion.

I haven't attended Mass in a very long time. I can not reconscile sitting next to someone in a pew and hearing the Homily from someone who hears the same message from the bible I'm hearing, yet interperts that as "kill the Iraqis... kill the Muslims... * is a good man of faith... and no taxes..."

I just can't do it.

[bliss_eternal]

7. Hi Kerry--I read about an interesting church in your area...

Coincidentally, I read this days after the election last year. I was so depressed, I turned to one of my spiritual magazines.

In it, there was an article written by a Rev. Ed Bacon, a rector of All Saints Church. Apparently it is a 3,500 member, multi-ethnic urban parish with a reputation for effective social action. The magazine called him 'a passionate advocate for peace and justice in our community, the nation and the world.'

The article that he wrote was entitled,"God's Presence is Global, Wake Up." It comforted me to read of someone with an alternative view to the 'hate those that hate us' and the 'gays are not worthy of God' and all the other things religions have spewed the last year or so as the election drew near.

Sorry to go on and on--I didn't mean to. Just thought I would point you toward someone that MAY be doing things differently--if and his congregation practice what was preached in the article I read.

:hi:
bliss
oh and p.s. Dh and I haven't set foot in any churches in quite some time for the exact same reasons you stated. We were attending a so-called Christian church in our area a while back, but we got very turned off when one of the pastors took to 'praising * and his leadership' every chance he could during services. It was a mutual turn off--we left and never looked back.

sorry--didn't mean to hijack the thread, carry on. :)

edited to remove identifying info.

[Kerrytravelers]

8. We went to a Progressive Christians meeting with head of All Saints there

We have been considering going there. It's Episcopial (sp) and we're Catholic... but we really don't care. Apparently, many Catholics have gone there because the lack of integrity in our local Catholic churches.

Thanks for the post!

[bliss_eternal]

11. Would you mind pm-ing me the specifics?

Like the location of the church?

Dh and I live QUITE a ways away, but I may consider making the commute for a place like this. If it's as promising as the article made it out to be.

I doubt it would be on a regular basis. I'm asking more out of wanting to know just in case--if the mood to drive should hit me one day (lol), it would be nice to have somewhere positive to check out.

Of course only AFTER hearing from you that it was a cool place (lol)

:D

[blue sky at night]

15. Thanks for the reply........

and you are not hijacking the thread. You know I have been torn by this very idea, that the members of my "church" are so adamantly pro-war, etc. I felt like leaving very strongly last year, but I have held on to support my Wife and Daughter......my sons refuse to attend. I belong to the UCC, a very forward looking mainstream, but the folks in my local church are not so forward looking, but my Pastor is. I really think we should start a movement of holding these right wing Christians feet to the fire for the Paradox.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. you bring up a very good point

Jesus was unconditional love. His teachings are of tolerance and forgiveness, and working on overcoming your own faults before thinking about the faults of others. What I have heard from fundies is the "eye for an eye" thing, how Jesus was violent (they really extrapolate and distort the throwing over the tables of the money changers), that "saved by grace" means you can act like a jackass and worse because actions don't matter.

I know that the majority of Christian churches don't follow this bizarre take on the path of Christ. I'm wondering if they speak out against it, and these speeches just aren't reported (as is the case so many times with Islamic people speaking out).

Also, I'm sensible enough to realize that a Methodist or a Quaker or even the Catholic Church couldn't do all that much to stop the IRA from committing violence in the past. What amazes me are people on message boards who assume, because I am a Muslim, that I can, with a wave of a hand, stop the Islamic terrorists. I'm a Sufi initiate, not a fundamentalists. Sufis are persecuted by these same terrorist groups, because Sufis are tolerant and reach out to people of other faiths. Keep in mind that the Islamic terrorists, just like terrorists of any stripe, put their violent agenda first. They use religion only as an excuse.

[BiggJawn]

6. Telly-Vangelists "trumpet the message of Jesus"?

Have you heard Rod Parsely lately? "I will NOT BE SILENT! CHRISTIANS are suffering for their FAITH, and I will no longer BE SILENT!!!"
And many reasons why Bush NEEDS Roberts on the SCROTUS, too...

Politically active preachers, just BARELY staying inside the lines of what they can do to support the BFEE and keep their 501C3 status.

And show me in the Bible where Jesus preached the Gospel of the Holy Shell Game, the doctrine of "Name IT and CLAIM IT!", the magical "Prayer Cloth"...

They're trumpeting a message, all right, but it sure as shit ain't anything I ever read as coming from Jesus.....

[Lannes]

10. I mentioned this in another post last night

I suggested and still do that we find groups out there on the web or near where we live and posts links to them.Those who refute what the fundies are saying.

Show that we appreciate what they are doing and those of you who are so enclined to help them get their message across.Ive seen some but I cant remember the names offhand but I will make a point of finding them.

[undergroundpanther]

12. The problem is the bible

It preaches both love and hate.And it is not just the old testament that has this problem. The bible and in the bible god encourages and preaches bigotry, mayhem, sexism and he also says all the other warm fuzzies the liberals point to. I think the church has trouble standing up because on a human side they denounce the fundie bigots,but biblically they know the bible makes excuses for evil.The bible is not a moral compass nor is it consistently "good" nor is it a book that always encourages love.The bible is two faced.And Christianity itself from liberal to fundamentalist reflects this two facednesss.

[Lannes]

13. Jesus did not teach hate

Jesus is main the excuse for what the fundies are doing to destroy this country.Thats what some of us are trying to counter.

To belittle the what Jesus taught as "warm and fuzzy" shows me that you are ignoring the heart of his teachings to prove your point.It shows that you are using the same tactics the fundies are using to prove your point.Neither of them are good.

[undergroundpanther]

16. Is jesus THE BOOK

Or not? Does jesus for you exist Outside of that book?
And yes Jesusd said some sickening things too in the book.
So are you a follower of jesus or do you idolotarize a book?

I SAID the BOOK biblioidolotry Bible believers,over spiritual seekers is the problem.

[flvegan]

14. Isn't Christian violence sort of an oxymoron?

I think half the problem is the overuse of the "Christian" term. What is a Christian, anyway? Someone who has accepted Christ as their savior? Someone that goes to church, believes in God, Jesus, the Bible, etc?

It was my understanding that a proper Christian would try to embody the teachings of Christ. Of course, it's that very understanding that has kept me far away from any church for a number of years.

"Christian violence" is little more than violence done for one's personal belief. Acts of violence "in the name of Christ" or God or anything else along those lines would be met with strong disapproval by He in whose name it was performed. What would Jesus say? I think, "Not in my name!"

I also think that by using a term like "Christian violence" takes away from the act itself. Too many sheep will assume that since it was done in God's name, then it must have been in reason.

Bush, the televangelists (that I know of that back the killing of others), and all their ilk aren't Christians. Not even close.