Hey Deaniacs. . .

[wndycty]

The day Jim Jones, er uh I mean Howard Dean drops out of the race please do not drink the Kool Aid!

I am sorry I had to go there, I don't normally Bash other candidatesm but Dean's comments this morning about Clark being a Republican are disgusting given the way you guys and Dean were lobbying for Clark to be his VP about a month ago. Clark may be a new Democrat, but he has a hell of a lot more integrity than Jim Jones, er uh I mean Dean!

[AWD]

1. Flame bait

You know better than that, and I would hope that you represent Clark better than that on the trail.

[Pepperbelly]

10. very rich ...

Deano can say what he wants but he is sacrosanct?

:eyes:

Whatever.

[AWD]

26. Well, as a Democrat...

....I support what Democrats say.

You go ahead and cuddle up to the Repuke.

[Pepperbelly]

33. whatever ...

But Howie will clearly say anything to try and snare the nomination and he revealed that today. Not a SINGLE Deaniac dares to address the facts of the issue, preferring addle-pated slogan shouting over substance.

Stay away from the Kool-aid, dude. It's a bummer.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

55. And just what are those facts?

Nixon, Reagan twice, and maybe Poppy once. Fundraisers for Democrats and REPUBLICANS (very recently). Don't be shocked if that is a little frightening for members of DEMOCRATIC Underground. It doesn't mean his conversion is insincere but it's damn well worth examining minutely.

Address that.

[Pepperbelly]

76. Will ...

his own words do? Remember, he was apolitical while in the Army. It is how they do things. So what happened then:

"So when I got out of the military and into business I looked at both parties," Clark explained to the crowd on why he was a Democrat. "I talked to Condoleeza Rice right away. I found out I didn't like her view on foreign policy. She said American troops shouldn't do peacekeeping they should do real fighting. But she is an academic, what does she know? I've been on the front lines. I tried to explain it to her. She let me know she was going to be in charge. And I spoke out on the election campaign on what we are trying to do on behalf of Bosnia and the Balkans and so forth. And when I went home to Arkansas I was in business and I wanted to meet both sides. The Republicans came to me and said 'Hey we would like for you to speak at our Lincoln Day fund-raiser. I said I am not going to be there for Lincoln Day. They said 'General we'll hold Lincoln Day whenever you can get here.' So I did. I spoke to about 450 Republicans there at Embassy Suites. I was non-partisan. I basically praised Republicans for being Republicans. . . . But I knew what the Republican Party was like and I couldn't identify with that party. They are the party that when I was commanding in Kosovo, they were the party led by Tom Delay against our airman who were in the skies over Yugoslavia taking fire from Serb anti-aircraft and this party voted against them. They claimed they weren't. They claimed they were voting against just a policy, but I read what they said. They wanted the policy to fail. They didn't have a vision. They didn't understand what America was about. They put their interest of the party above the interest of the party. I'll never put the interest of the party above the interest of the country."



http://www.politicsnh.com/archives/pindell/2003/september/9_27clark.shtml

[Patriot_Spear]

2. Blow me... a tune like 'moon river'.

Dean as Jim Jones- getting alittle desperate aren't you? LMAO

[AWD]

4. Getting VERY desperate

If only the truth about Clark wouldn't come out, everything would be fine with these people.....

[goobergunch]

6. Who is Jim Jones?

I'm probably being an idiot here, but inquiring minds want to know!

[JVS]

8. In 1978

Jim Jones had a cult in South America that drank poison kool aide

[AWD]

11. Oh, you're SO young!

Guyana...cult leader....had hundrerds of followers, and when the govt closed in on him (for killing 2 agents), he convinced his followers to drink poisoned kool-aid. The photos were horrifying. They're still burned into my head from when I saw them as a child.

They forced crying children to drink it, if somebody tried to run, they were shot. In the end, I believe only 2 people survived it out of hundreds.

But of course, to this Clark follower, it's a joke that they fling around at other Democrats.

Or at least those who have been Democrats more than a month.

[JVS]

15. He's not that young

That was almost 25 years ago

[JohnKleeb]

24. hey I knew and hes older than me

but as for as congress and the government in general goes, I think you should trust Goob not me, AWD. You should have seen the look on my face when I got the same pyschology grade or higher than a kid I know gets on all A honor roll. I was like whoa!, I didnt brag but hey when youre a near 3.0 student and possibly the only DUer in high school who is both Learning Disabled and not in any AP classes, you gotta have a bit of fun. :) I dont like to knock myself but everyone knows I am the "dumbest".

[JohnKleeb]

12. finally something I know that Goob doesnt

:) thats a compliment man
Jim Jones was a cult leader in the 70's and all the members committed suicide by you guessed it kool aid and yes this is flame bait.

[goobergunch]

22. Thank you all!

:yourock:

[JohnKleeb]

25. I try dude

[wndycty]

13. Here you go

http://www.culteducation.com/jonestown.html

[JVS]

3. Koresh, I mean Clark is the one!

[JohnKleeb]

32. Jones/Koresh!

A candiate for the cultist :)

[wndycty]

37. You liked that?

:kick:

[JohnKleeb]

42. I was joking around

[JVS]

40. A ticket that unites cults.

[JohnKleeb]

43. lol

[Padraig18]

5. Flame/troll bait!

[wndycty]

7. Who has thin skin now. . .

. . .all is fair in love and politics. . .right?

[AWD]

21. Well, taht's what the Repukes say

...but you'd know that. You support one.

[liberalnurse]

9. Well, the truth obviously hurts.....you back a republican; Gen. Clark.

Don't be ashamed of yourself. We will forgive you for being impulsive and frightened of *bush. We understand. You were impressed with a man in a uniform...understandable, as our society is commercial driven and that John Wayne fantasy lurks with a few.

We Deanies are quite grounded and back a concistent winner; Gove. Howard Dean, the next President of the United States.

[Pepperbelly]

16. if that is so ...

why will none of you address what Clark actually said?

I argue that it is because the intellectually dishonest and bordering on just plain dishonest attacks don't work when Clark's words are considered.

[liberalnurse]

35. Why did Clark hold out so very long with sharing his party

affiliation over the summer? I know why now...He was a republican.

[liberalnurse]

45. Hey, I didn't start this flame post....

and I am not going to sit back and not speak up either. I was quite content thinking about the issues while sipping my coffee, watching CNN and reading DU.

If you don't like the replies to offensive posting then I encourage you to tone down your peers.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

19. How Many "Republicans" Are Pro-

Choice
Affirmative Action
Environment
Internationalism
Tax-Cut-for-the-Wealthy Rollback
etc. etc. etc.

Nice try, though, I'm sure we'll see this charge continue to surface in light of Dr. Dean's disgraceful performance. I can't wait until Clinton and the CBC rebut this and make the people who gladly carried Rove's water look like idiots.

DTH

[AWD]

34. Gee, you know all this???

Funny, he's not willing to show these issues on his web site....I wonder why??

SO many of you are willing to claim that Zell Miller or Breaux are Repubs in disguise. This guy WAS a Repub, and you fling yourselves at him like he's the messiah.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

41. I Know All This Because I Pay Attention

Unlike some.

He also voted Democratic in 1992, 1996, 2000, donated $1,000 to Erskine Bowles, and campaigned for Cleland and Katrina Swett. The RNC thing was just a speech, and by making it so much more important than the rest of the context, all you're doing is gladly carrying Rove's water. Who the hell do you think released that video in the first place? Who the hell do you think stands to benefit?

Aren't you running for some office? Shouldn't you know all of this?

DTH

[janekat]

53. DEAN is the Republican - have you seen his record as Governor??

n/t

[poskonig]

14. I'd rather praise Dean than Wolfowitz, thank you.

eom

[Pepperbelly]

27. another intellectually dishonest attack by a Deanie ...

why am I no longer surprised.

[JVS]

38. Could you elaborate on how that post was intellectually dishonest?

I could see calling it a cheap shot, but I don't see the intellectual dishonesty.

[Pepperbelly]

51. if he is relying on ...

the remarks in Salon, it is indeed. Let's see what he says.

[poskonig]

39. The criticisms of Clark are factual.

Clark praised Republicans, voted for Nixon and Reagan, said he would have been a Republican if Rove returned his phonecalls, will not give out any issue details despite the scholarly knowledge his supporters brag about, and didn't say he was a Democrat until 25 days ago, etc.

This is straight-up meat and potatoes info on Clark.

[JohnKleeb]

46. Thats all good

mmm meat and potatoes. I dont like him(Clark) much either. I am not an anti military leftist, yeah I am a leftist far as they come lol. I remember when only a few really had problems with Clark, I get disconnected, and more saw it I am seeing. I tell you this koing I had my problems with Clark before he entered.

[Pepperbelly]

49. are you talking about the remarks from Salon?

Are those the ones you are pimping now?

[poskonig]

52. If it is Clark versus Bush, I'll take Clark any day of the week.

However, I'm more comfortable with Dean since he has been honest with me where he stands.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

17. Can Dean even win without Clark as VP?

Sure Dean will get the electoral votes from Vermont, but without used-to-be-a-Republican Clark what's Dean going to do?

[JVS]

30. Gephardt would do fine as Dean's VP

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

56. I like Gephardt

Can Dean/Gephardt beat Bush during the invasion of Syria? (Don't think it won't happen)

[JVS]

65. As much as any other combination IMO

If Bush invades Syria and the public is all hua-hua about it, I don't see any other ticket being able to win the election. I don't think our military has enough capacity to handle another country though.

[TrueBlueDem]

18. Shame on any Clarkies or Deanies who take part in this discussion

It's amazing all the time wasted by so-called political activists at DU who take part in divisive backbiting discussions like this.

INSTEAD... go out and do something CONSTRUCTIVE for your candidate. Pass out some flyers; work a table at the local farmers' market; stuff envelopes... ANYTHING would be more constructive than this B.S.!!!

[clar]

20. Ugh

Don't toot your horn about what a good guy you are and then compare a dem candidate to Jim Jones and the candidate's supporters to cult followers. Having said that, I'll repeat for the third time this morning that I was disappointed in Dean's attack on Clark on FTN.

[wndycty]

29. Hey I was pushed. . .

. . .this is temporary. But there was only so much I could take before I came down to the level of bashing.

[wndycty]

23. I don't know what everyone is upset about. . .

. . .I am just trying to save a few lives.

[CMT]

28. I think it is an issue that is legitimate to raise

even John Kerry has raised it saying that while he was fighting Nixon and Reagan Gen. Clark was voting for them. Did you criticize those comments?

[wndycty]

31. Kerry was not spreading rumors about Clark being his VP

:kick:

[Nazgul35]

66. Nor is there any proof that Dean did...

if you will remember the quote that was bandied about at the time....it was individuals who had been at the meeting, with no identification as to whose camp it was!

I've seen some discussion that it was in fact the Clark camp that leaked the meeting, as it would not have benefitted Dean to publicize the fact that he asked Clark to be his VP, which Dean has refused to do in any interview to date, saying it would be presumptuous...and would have made Dean look foolish....

In fact, the only camp that ebenfitted from it was the Clark camp, by making Dean look like he was afraid of Clark...and considering the tactics that Clark used against Edwards (and who the political operatives that have joined on are) a few weeks ago...i'm more inclined to believe the whole thing was coming from Clark's camp...

besides...this is a stupid thread...you're fast approaching a well known Kerry support for idiotic posts...

What everyone should be focusing on was Dean's last point...which I have been making for months...what many here call flip flopping is what people who learn the scientific method as re-evaluating your theory...something I find refreshing from a politican...and as a social scientist, I know exactly what Dean is talking about....but considering how crappy our school system is, I can see why some people are having trouble understanding the process...

[blm]

68. Kerry said Clark should answer for himself

and it seemed Dean was supplying the answer FOR Clark. BIG difference.

[jonnyblitz]

36. well if you must use the jim jones/cult analogy

Usually members of a cult go into complete hysterics when their grand leader is spoken ill of. So who is getting hysterical here and who must be the Jim Jones?!?

[JVS]

44. I'm in the Kucinich cult.

[jonnyblitz]

59. the cult of the undecided here.

I just find the CLark supporters particularly interesting to observe.They have far surpassed the Dean supporters when it comes to 'devotion".

[JohnKleeb]

61. wanna join us jon?

[JohnKleeb]

60. lol

I thought it was called Kucinich tovarištvo.
tovaristvo!
Sorry I love to speak my grandfather's native language which is very simliar to the Kucinich's croatian. Yugoslavs rule :), as do Irish, lol and of course everyone rules but these are my faves, my Irish and my Yugoslav side.
If you can guess the word I said, tovaristvo, then join lol the unoffical DU Balkans Club.

[JVS]

77. Come on, isnt DU Balkanized enough already?

I don't know much of slavic languages. let's see
Voda -- water
Brylla -- Eyeglasses
Hlyeb-- Bread
Pivo-- beer
Dobra -- good
Sznaps- Schnapps
That's about it

[JVS]

47. And I thought my threads were stupid flamebait! I concede the crown to you

[wndycty]

48. Hey I have been on the DU a long time. . .

. . .aren't I entitled to atleast one flame bait thread. IF YOU ARE GONNA FOUL, FOUL HARD! I think I FOULED HARD. LOL

:kick:

I'll play nice soon enough, I just had to let this one out, it felt very very good.

[JVS]

50. I just realized, on Sunday threads often go very long without being seen

by moderators. This could go on for quite a while.

[wndycty]

54. Well I'll enjoy it while it lasts. . .

. . .I don't really like attacking other peoples candidates, I want to be able to support whomever wins the nomination, but for Dean to attack Clark to me is kind of low. In a way I think its deserved, Clark has to prove himself, but for Dean (who actively courted Clark for VP) to say this in just disgusting. The same comment from Kucinich, Kerry, Edwards, et al would not have been nearly as bad. Dean is being a huge hypocrit.

[blm]

71. wndycty is one of the most evenhanded posters at DU.

It would take alot to push his buttons against another candidate.

[prolesunited]

57. What a constructive thread

:eyes:

I really thought better of you, wndycty. Not that you give a shit, but I am disappointed.

[wndycty]

58. I thought better of all of the Clark bashers. . .

Normally, I would not go there, but I have had it. You know it would take a lot for me to say what I said. I probably won't do it again, but I have had enough. I have been extremely respectful of other candidates and will make every effort to be in the future. . .sometimes you just have to say F&%k it!

[prolesunited]

70. A favorite quotation for you to ponder

An eye for eye only ends up making the whole world blind.
Mohandas Gandhi

And believe it or not, when the primary is over, we all have to come together to beat Bush. If you alienate and trash everyone in the process, how is that going to happen? Debate and constructive criticism is one thing and you know yourself that this crosses the line.

Say Clark does win the nod. Are you telling me that your team doesn't need the Dean people's votes and money to send him into office? After you've treated them like the enemy, do you really think they are gonna want to sing Kumbaya with you later?

[OneTwentyoNine]

62. Hey Windy,when Dean drops out I'll eat Tuckers other shoe...n/t

.....

[wndycty]

64. You are a DU'er. . .

. . .I'll let you eat cake, we may not agree but you are family.

[OneTwentyoNine]

74. And you'll eat what when your proven wrong?? Heh he...

Crow? Nah,your a DU'er,I'll play nice and let you eat cake.

Bottom line,Dean will be in till the very end. He'll then either go home or be the Dem canidate for Pres.

David

[JNelson6563]

63. Why do you do R's work for them?

Thanks so much for helping me to demosntrate a point.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=422687

Finally, something constructive out of you! To think I almost abandoned hope!

Julie

[MoonRiver]

67. Dean just alienated those of us who really liked him but preferred Clark.

Now I'm starting to sincerely HOPE Dean does not get the nomination. :thumbsdown:

[LWolf]

69. Enough is enough.

Disagree with a poster. Promote your candidate. Debate with the opposition. Criticize the opposing candidates. Fine. That's politics. This is an election.

Calling Howard Dean "Jim Jones" has crossed way over the line. Alert.

[JohnKleeb]

75. and we got called us vile huh

huh tovarištvo?
so anyone who gets what tovarištvo means gets a free trip to *game show aunnocer voice* beautiful Lubijana.
beautiful huh
now pm me, I will be back later.

[Terwilliger]

72. so, you attack Dean like this then want respect for Clark

I think you are prime example number one of why I don't like Democrats either

[Elad]

73. Locking this thread - flamebait