JFK's Church/State Separation Is Being Broken by Current Caths

[UTUSN]

Preface: Anybody who IMAGINES this is a Catholic-bash is not even close.

Before JFK, as far back as Al SMITH, Catholic politicians were ghetto-ized by the smear that they could not be trusted in high office because their ultimate loyalty was to "Rome".

After years of Camelot-debunking, it now looks like JFK did, indeed, have a bright, shining moment, a moment that is ending: That he represented the separation of church and state, allayed the old smear through this affirmation.

The threats from the Catholic hierarchy that have been rumbling, that Catholics and their politicians must adhere to strict orthodoxy (anti-Choice--and what next, anti-the death penalty) OR ELSE-------are actually going to have the effect of breaking down the JFK covenant and ghetto-izing Catholics again.

This regression has been fanned by a whole LAYER of media loud-mouths and politicians who happen to be Catholics: O'REILLY, HANNITY, BUCHANAN, SCALIA, THOMAS, now ROBERTS. Together with the Protestant fundies---help me out here, how do they fit together?--will both wings be ghetto-ized, or will it work against the Catholics mainly.

This fanaticism is not new. Father COUGHLIN in the '30s probably had more radio listeners than LIMBOsevic.

On Edit: Put "anti" in "anti-the-death-penalty".

[mikehiggins]

1. The Catholic Church is against abortion AND the death penalty

and the invasion of Iraq. Keep that in mind.

Individual Catholics differ with the Church's views on all three of those issues and a lot more. Its like the rightwing fundies (are there any other kind? yeah, there are) who are always presented as speaking for all Christians. Bullshit.

Catholics in public office are open to pressure but they won't be voted out by Catholics for standing up for America's laws, even if Pope Benedict demands it. How we vote is between us and God (and Diebold, I guess), the Church can impel but it cannot compel.

I'm a Catholic and I voted for Kerry. My difficulty in voting for him was related to my opinion of him, not his ideas about abortion or gay rights or any of that stuff. I just thought he was a weak candidate; the wrong man at the wrong time for the wrong race. I would never turn away from him at the behest of Rome, however, anymore than I would support Bush even if PB canonised him.

[DanCa]

23. Well the Catholic Church expelled me in 2000

For vocally disagreeing with it's teachings on reprodutive health, and gay rights. Which is sad because I problably agree with it's stances on almost all other issues. Note I don't blame any liberal catholic on DU for my situation, it's just that I come from a very small town and the click that ruled the church was a very powerful one.

Side note number two. I wanted everyone know that I cried and mourn when both Pope John Paul two passed away and Cardinal Bernadine of chicago. Pope John Paul was a fellow parkinson's suffer and how he made it thru mass let alone being pontiff is beyond me. He also called George W The anti christ for starting the Iraq War.
Now here's the down side of the church.

I believe that Pope Benedict manipulated the conservatives bishops into power and bill donahue and the other's followed suit. And now they are trying to find ways to control politicians thru rules and means.

Well this is my theory any way and I hope I didn't offend anyone.
I may be still angry from what happened and kind of impartial. Anyhow I hope you all have a great weekend and a peaceful night Danny :D)

[etherealtruth]

2. I agree with your "history" and ...

...I understand what the positions of the Catholic hierarchy are. I agree that if Catholics were to vote along with the hierarchy of the church they would certainly risk becoming "ghetto-ized."

My belief is that Catholics mirror American society in general and their voting is reflective of that. (I've had links tracking the voting patterns of RC's, if you like I will dig them up).

As Catholics (and ethnicities traditionally linked with Catholicism) became fully integrated into the fabric of American society they reflected that society. As personal wealth increased more Catholics turned to the Republican party (motivated by their own self interest more than anything else).

My rambling point: Catholics do not vote as a group. There are definite right wing wackos filling the pews on Sunday mornings, but they're likely to be sitting along side people like Ted Kennedy and John Kerry.

Edit: grammar

[H2O Man]

3. Always picking on the Irish, eh?

Actually, I agree with most of what you are saying. However, the more pressure the extreme right puts on, the more of a division they create within the church. Read the Irish Echo, the largest IrishAmerican newspaper, and you'll see that the majority of the Irish Catholic leaders -- including the priests and nuns that have the most contact with their communities -- are good democrats.

[UTUSN]

4. Actually, I've Been Accused of Picking on Just about Every

sub-group in our community--wrongly, I-wish-it-were-needless-to-say.

But while the Catholics of the past few generations have NOT been monolithic, it appears that the trend is to firm up the orthodoxy. A week or two ago there was a thread here about one of Benedict's lieutenants writing up the marching orders to come regarding not allowing divorced Catholics communion. Back when KERRY's pro-Choice-ness became a factor in the election, HANNITY was saying, "Whoa, I'm not sure I like this because *I'm* pro-death-penalty, and where does it stop?"

As for the Church's being anti-Iraq-attack, it wasn't THAT strong on THAT score: Basically, the single issue of anti-Choice is what trumps everything.

I am well aware that the Church in the last hundred years has had an outstanding social justice agenda, which I've posted about several times----how can it share 99 out of 100 agenda items with the Dem party and call for voting against Dems based on ONE issue?

But to return to the "picking on Irish": No, I pick on HANNITY, O'REILLY, SCALIA, THOMAS. I pick on Wingnuts. I HAVE noted that among all the yakking class, Irish tend to be significant in numbers and significant in their education and language skills---probably the result of those scary nuns with the rulers: It just means that the last few generations of Irish are the fruit of being assimilated and "rising to the top". Actually, this probably means they will completely blend in and "disappear". I don't see Tweety's kids as being so OUT THERE as Tweety or O'LOOFAH.

[H2O Man]

6. I was joking .....

in large part because of a thread I had just posted a couple minutes before finding yours. If you read it, you'll understand why I made the feeble attempt at humor.

[UTUSN]

13. Thanks for the Clarification. I Was Pretty Sure You Were Joking

but I actually *have* been called anti-Irish (I'm 1/16th, myself) whenever I list all of the Irish-American political commentators.

[FreedomAngel82]

9. Did Hannity really say that about the Kerry nonsense that happened?

Call me surprised if so. How can anybody be pro-death penalty though? :shrug: I as a Christian am personally both pro-life and pro-choice. I'm pro-life in the policies I believe in that make life such as the enviornment, public education, economy etc. And then I'm pro-choice because I know in the end that it's not my decision or even God's in dealing with having an abortion. I can't force someone to view things I do. I can give my opinion but that's really all I can do. How I can change things with issues such as abortion is the policies I believe in and looking at why women have abortions. I'm against the death penalty because I believe there are better ways to deal with people instead of just killing them. Two wrongs don't make a right. Jesus didn't have the "eye for an eye" rule. One reason why I'm not a Catholic personally is because I wouldn't like someone saying I can't have the communion because of my politics. That's nobody's choice to say. I can only get to God through Christ. Not some Bishop or some Pope. How can a Pope know what's going on at my church all the way here in Tennessee?

[UTUSN]

14. Yep, HANNITY Is Pro-death-penalty and Said That n/t

[FreedomAngel82]

7. Even one of today's most popular figures in religion

is a democrat. Billy Graham is listed as one. I've also heard reports that (ew) Fred Phelps is one as well. :shrug:

[FreedomAngel82]

5. I think it's religion in general

JFK is surely rolling in his grave. I remember reading how people were freakin out about JFK and being Catholic and how people thought he and the Pope were going to take over the world and there was a tunnel in the White House that lead to the Vatican (huh ocean remember?) and all that nonsense. Where is that today? :eyes:

[seriousstan]

8. The "JFK covenant"? Did I miss something? Wasn't abortion illegal?

Wasn't the death penalty in effect under JFK? What did the Catholic Church have to complain about? How was their a separation?

[UTUSN]

11. My Made-up "JFK Covenant" Regards His Swearing

that his Catholicism would not interfere or over-rule his performance of his job in the government----separation of church and state. The Church's positions on anti-Choice and anti-death-penalty were thus separated out away from politicians who happened to be Catholic: They could be Catholic in their private views while being pro-Choice and pro-death-penalty in public. This is what is being broken down now. A wingnut (Protestant) talkshow host (local) says this is how it SHOULD be, that if somebody wants to be called a "Catholic" or whatever denomination, that somebody needs to toe the line in all points of the denomination's agenda.

[seriousstan]

17. If the Church's views and the politicians views are the same

then it isn't the Church's views that need to be examined but rather the politicians adherence to them.

Members of churches are free to come and go. It is one of the most open door clubs, with the exception of cults.

[UTUSN]

19. It's Not the Views Here, It's the Tossing-out-the-Door, No More Leeway n/

[seriousstan]

20. But a religion doesn't join a politician, a politician joins a religion

[UTUSN]

22. O.K., Saying It Another Way, This Religion Is Leaning towards Tossing Out

anybody who doesn't agree with every single thing BOTH in public practice and in private religion. See posts #10, 15, and 18.

[etherealtruth]

12. Catholics are supposed to be OPPOSED to the death penalty

As I stated in my earlier post, Catholics support the death penalty in numbers consistent with "America" in general.

Though, I'm not old enough to know about the Kennedy administration (or the country at that time) first hand ----- My understanding was that "people" feared that Kennedy would govern as the Chimp does ... putting his religion before the citizens of the US and attempting to rule using religious doctrine as a guide rather than US law!

[UTUSN]

16. JFK Laid to Rest the Old Fears about Rome in the Debates

That's the point, that JFK assured the nation that his religion would NOT be a factor in his performing his job.

As for the point that modern American Catholics don't toe-the-line regarding the Vatican's "dictates": That's what I'm saying:: That the threats from the Conservatives in the Vatican hierarchy are amounting to throwing out anybody who DOESN'T toe the line, that if somebody wants to be called a "Catholic" they are going to have to toe the line. Period.

[etherealtruth]

24. No, no I did understand ...

I knew your contention was that JFK adhered to a strict separation of church and state; can you imagine the outcry if he didn't completely?

I also acknowledge that the hierarchy of the Catholic truly believes they can expect absolute obedience from Catholics (with dire consequences for those that do not) ------- I don't believe the Vatican will get what its looking for. US Catholics are very independent. I realize this is very crass but $$$$ donated to the church by Americans will need to be considered in the end.

[UTUSN]

25. The Leaning Is to THROW OUT "Independent" Caths

not to extract the absolute obedience from the CURRENT "Independents".

[etherealtruth]

26. I think there are two interrelated issues ...

1.) I do think that the church is going to attempt to "throw out." I think we differ here: I don't believe, in the end, that is going to happen. (IMO for economic reasons as well as organizational/religious clout) Though I do agree that some will be lost to the church in the "scuffle."

2.) I do not believe the voting trends of Catholics is going to change; regardless of what the Vatican actions are.

" The loosening of the Democratic Party identity and voting among Catholics also is due to economic trends and population shifts. Although their parents or grandparents were of the immigrant underclass and loyal Democrats, many Catholics have achieved economic success, moved to the suburbs and become Independents or Republicans. One scholar of Catholic voting trends, the late William Prendergast, correctly stated that the Catholic community has experienced the same "homogenization" of other immigrant groups in the U.S. "Catholics went through the melting pot and came out very much like other Americans," he wrote in the mid-1990s."
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04221/357935.stm

[Viking12]

10. "America where the separation of church and state is absolute"

John F. Kennedy: Address to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association

But because I am a Catholic, and no Catholic has ever been elected President, the real issues in this campaign have been obscured -- perhaps deliberately, in some quarters less responsible than this. So it is apparently necessary for me to state once again -- not what kind of church I believe in, for that should be important only to me -- but what kind of America I believe in.

I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute; where no Catholic prelate would tell the President -- should he be Catholic -- how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote; where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference, and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him, or the people who might elect him.

I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant nor Jewish; where no public official either requests or accept instructions on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches or any other ecclesiastical source; where no religious body seeks to impose its will directly or indirectly upon the general populace or the public acts of its officials, and where religious liberty is so indivisible that an act against one church is treated as an act against all.

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/johnfkennedyhoustonministerialspeech.html

[FreedomAngel82]

15. Beautiful!!

I shared this with a Christian board I'm on. Maybe some will listen (er read?) to it.

[Viking12]

18. Indeed, an eloquent speech.

Some attribute his electoral victory to the speech. He cleverly creates a position where one is forced to choose between being "religious" or being American.

[UTUSN]

21. That's What I'm Calling "the JFK Covenant" n/t

[OneBlueSky]

27. one of the many reasons I'm called a "lapsed" Catholic . . .

I keep explaining that there was no lapse involved, that leaving the church was a very conscious choice on my part . . . or, more accurately, the church left me . . . but my aunt still thinks I'm lapsed and destined to return to the fold . . . not in this lifetime . . .

[UTUSN]

28. Farewell Kick n/t