How many of you who are attacking Clark

[Squibbie]

on the basis of the ideological purity issue will vote for
Bush if Clark is the nominee? And how many of you who are
attacking Dean because of the unelectablity issue will vote for
Bush if Dean is the nominee? Or Nader, or....? Just curious.

Edit: This was wild! I posted this as a not so subtle anti-flaming
comment. What did I get? Flaming! (not from all). Go figure.


http://blogger2.hootsandtoots.com/Wrecked/wrecked.html

[IndianaGreen]

1. Unlike Clark, none of us ever voted for a Bush

:puke:

[JVS]

3. Actually, I've seen a couple of confessions in threads this week about

voting Repuke in the past

[RandomUser]

12. There was a poll

that showed over half of DUers voted republican in the past.

[Renew Deal]

4. Proof please?

Where is the proof?

[IndianaGreen]

10. By his own admission, Clark voted for Poppy Bush

Clark says he voted for Gore, but I can't fathom having a Gore voter (particularly after the Selection 2000) say what Clark said about Bush in March 2001:

And I'm very glad we've got the great team in office: men like Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Condolzeezza Rice, Paul O'Neill--people I know very well--our president, George W. Bush.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110004065

[Renew Deal]

17. So you made it up?

You don't belive him. I deon;t really believe that Dean wants to keep the retirement age at 67. He said that he considered 70. In fact, I think Dean wants to make the retirement age 72.

[IndianaGreen]

61. What part of what Wesley Clark said don't you believe?

You are refuting the words of your own candidate, not to mention that you did not even bother to read Clark's speech, the link for which I provided to you.

This is what Reichsmarshall Clark said about Poppy Bush:

And we will always be grateful to President George Bush for that tremendous leadership and statesmanship.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110004065

And what he said about Ronald Reagan:

And thank God Ronald Reagan had the vision to start that

And what he said about George W and his gangsters:

And I'm very glad we've got the great team in office: men like Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Condolzeezza Rice, Paul O'Neill--people I know very well--our president, George W. Bush.

[Renew Deal]

72. What lines says:

I voted for Bush 1?

[wyldwolf]

5. Someone has to say ask..

How many DU'ers do you speak for? Just you? OK!

If you voted Green, IndianaGreen, you own stock in the current Bush regime.

[IndianaGreen]

14. 150,000 Hoosier Democrats that voted for O'Bannon in 2000

voted for Bush for Prez. My protest write-in vote for Nader was irrelevant!

BTW, I voted for O'Bannon!

[Kahuna]

26. Amen!

nt

[noiretextatique]

36. she speaks for me

an i voted for gore.

[Tinoire]

86. She speaks for me and most of the "Old Democrats"

Had you been around long enough, you would have realized that!

Do not attack Indiana Green- it only makes you look foolish and blind.

[JanMichael]

I DID!!!! I voted for BUSH I! I regret it!

I was only 20 and apparently drunk at the time.

Now, 15 years later, I'm 100% Leftist, is that OK, or am I to be forever persecuted for that?

[wyldwolf]

47. You're not a true ideologically pure leftest...

..your Bush vote pollutes your blood. You might be accepted on the left but you'll never be trusted. Never.

[JanMichael]

54. Sadly that's possible.

Irrational, but possible.

It's almost like there's a pre-destination requirement for some...Oh the irony.

[catforclark2004]

71. He voted for Republicans in the past? So what? Good for him for admitting

http://www.memphisflyer.com/onthefly/onthefly_new.asp?ID=2581

Seven questions you should be asking about Candidate Clark
ED WEATHERS

IS WESLEY THE ANSWER? (link for entire article)

2) He voted for Republicans in the past? So what? Good for him for admitting it. At last week’s debate, Clark addressed the issue of his “Democratic” credentials to my satisfaction when he said, “I am pro-choice. I am pro-affirmative action. I am pro-environment, pro-health. I believe the United States should engage with allies. We should be a good player in the international community. And we should use force only as a last resort.” For me, that’s as solid an anti-Bush platform as I’ve yet heard, and the guy deserves credit for coming right out and declaring his support for policies (abortion choice, affirmative action) that will immediately alienate many slightly-to-the-right voters who would otherwise have been attracted to him as a military man. All this just proves that Clark is a man who thinks outside political boxes. Indeed, given his chummy-with-Republicans history, he might, just might be able to return a measure of nonpartisan politics to Washington--which could be the most revolutionary thing to happen there in decades. (A note to conspiracy theorists: If you believe Clark is a Trojan horse planted by Republicans to sabotage the Democrats’ presidential campaign next year, please send your cards and letters to Bill and Hillary Clinton, as well as liberal U.S. Representative Charles Rangel of New York--all of whom seem to be convinced of Clark’s Democratic bona fides.)

[bearfartinthewoods]

96. and none of us are likely but

some of us may decide this is just one step too far and do something different for a change....vote on principle.

[IranianDemocrat]

97. KUCINICH GREEN OR DEAN RIGHT?

.

[JVS]

2. I'm not going to vote for Bush

[AP]

6. I know I'm voting for the Dem. But it's not me I'm worried about. And it's

not so much other DU'ers I'm worried about.

It the millions of people on the hump fo the bell curve distribution of where people line up on the political spectrum.

[JVS]

11. Is there any proof that political affiliation is normally distributed?

[AP]

21. How else would it be?

We're approaching 1/3 of the electorate DECLARING themselves to be independant. I'm going to guess that the vast majority of voters are within inches of either side of whatever threshold on the right and left you have to cross to consider yourself an independant.

(Incidentally, the first time I registered, I registered Ind. even though I had always been a Democrat, and have always been since.)

[JVS]

98. It could be an even distribution

or a barbell distribution.

[Julien Sorel]

101. The fact that polling works is proof.

[mhr]

7. I am Not A Republican

To learn more about Clark's past see the following:

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles8/DVNS_Wesley-Clark.htm

Don't flame me, read it for yourself.

[imhotep]

8. I would consider

voting for anyone but Clark.
That is how dangerous Clark is to this country.

[wyldwolf]

9. Everyone book mark imhotep's reply here...

...

[imhotep]

13. I changed it

so you types would not take it out of context.

[JVS]

16. Rotflmao

good one!

[wyldwolf]

28. It looked pretty cut and dry to me!

... what a back pedal that was!

bwhahahahahahaha.

I'm STILL going to remember it. I did a screen shot of it!

[JVS]

65. Link? Besides, doesn't he have a right to change his mind.

If he says he won't vote for Bush we should take his word for it.

[RandomUser]

44. Not out of context

You just stated quite simply and in a single sentence post that you would vote for Bush if Clark was the Dem nominee.

[Tinoire]

63. Why vote for a wannabe Republican

when you can get the real thing?

Hell, let me just echo his original post. I will never vote for Clark after all the stuff that's come out. I would vote for Bush before I voted for Clark. Now since I will never vote for Bush... understand clearly, very clearly, that if the Clark commando raid succeeds in getting him the Democratic nomination, 3rd party numbers will swell unbelievably and will create an irreparable rift in the Democratic Party.


Now when you quote this in future threads, be sure to include that last part because I too will book-mark this post to prevent any juvenile games and intellectual dishonesty.

Nice try to discredit an established DU Democrat!

[RandomUser]

73. More than one of us

saw him post that he would vote for Bush. He should have left the post up there instead of editing it out, if he stood by his position and believed we misunderstood. I can understand someone who will vote third party if Clark becomes Dem nom. But he said he'd vote Bush if Clark became dem nom.

[Tinoire]

95. He's not the first who's said that

and he's not the only one. It would be interesting to know how many Democrats would rather just see Bush keep the whole thing than hand it to what they see as a smarter version of Bush acting in their name.

I know this is difficult for you to accept but honestly, many good Democrats are as scared of Clark as we are of Bush. For those of us who believe they're part of the same machinery, it's no reassurance that Clark is smarter- in fact that's even more terrifying.

And Clark supporters have frankly not done a good job of allaying people's fears or refuting the information that's been coming out.

You guys have so much passion and energy and dedication that it's admirable but it's going to take more than passion- it's going to take deeds (not words) from your candidate to help you.

I don't want to get into individual squabbles... my fight isn't with any of Clark's suppporters- it's with his candidacy.

[JVS]

67. You need some proof for that assertion.

[RandomUser]

75. He edited his post

to erase the proof. Did you read it before the edit? Now that it's gone, it's the word of one person who edited his post vs. the word of several of us who saw it. Either believe him and believe that a bunch of us are conspiring and lying, or believe us when we say we all saw it. Up to you.

[JVS]

81. I need solid proof. Maybe it said something else

[Tinoire]

45. I'm sorry- imhotep is making a point

that many progressives and leftists are making here, on other boards, in their publications and on their web-sites.

Democratic Party-loving Clark supporters, no matter how new to the Party, had best start paying attention, unless their goal is to destroy everything we've been trying to do for the last 3 years to get Bush and the entire PNAC apparatus out of office.

In no way, will progressives enable just a smarter head of the same Hydra.



Hydra (mythology)
In Greek mythology, a huge monster with multiple heads- offspring of Typhon and Echidna. When one of its heads was cut off, two new heads appeared.

[wyldwolf]

48. Yeah, they made a point in election 2000, too!

Look where that point got us!

[Tinoire]

64. Who is they? The Reagan Democrats who voted for Bush?

I know you're not talking about people like Imhotep who voted for Gore!

[Justice]

15. Okay, So Vote For Bush - How Constructive Is That?

To say Clark is worse than Bush crosses the line of all common sense.

[JVS]

18. you can't prove that imhotep claimed to vote for Bush

Stop bashing Imhotep

[JanMichael]

25. Hardy har har har. Cute.

I get it.

Here's a mind bender for you: I'm as far Left as anyone on this board (Or in this State...Country maybe) and when I was 20 years old I voted for Bush I.

I regret my political naivete at that time, but over the last 15 years have voted Clinton twice and Gore once, so what does that make me?

[wyldwolf]

30. A Republican

[JanMichael]

41. I was at one time.

Then I grew a heart.

[Blue_Chill]

33. It makes you human

imagine that. A socialist can be a human. Learn something new everday. lol :D

[JVS]

42. Your post illustrates the difference. You regret and have renounced your

Republican voting past. There are some who have no regrets.

[wyldwolf]

34. Oh, no! He needs to be bashed.

[imhotep]

22. Anyone but Clark

is my motto.

[wyldwolf]

31. ..including Bush for you, right?

[RandomUser]

50. Yep, that's what he posted

before he went back and erased it, lol! But many of us saw it with our own eyes first. You said you would vote for Bush. Anyone but Clark. Lol.

[JVS]

69. You have no evidence

[RandomUser]

88. Check #59

[imhotep]

68. yes

thats what anyone means.

[JanMichael]

19. WTF? Is this a "devil you know v. the devil you don't" condemnation?

I couldn't disagree with you anymore on this.

I'm certainly not a Clarkie, and have raised my own questions simply to get a feel for his potential views on issues, but to vote for Bush over him? No fucking way.

[JVS]

23. Where did Imhotep say he'd vote for Bush. I see nothing indicating that.

[Blue_Chill]

24. He wrote "Anyone but Clark"

"Anyone"

[JVS]

32. I'm sure there will be some splitter parties to vote for

Bush would probably be a choice of last resort

[wyldwolf]

38. Actually he edited his post, he DID say he would vote for Bush over Clark.

...but then he "changed" it so no one would take it "out of context."

bwhahahahahahahaha!

[JVS]

49. Link?

Sorry but I will not tolerate this unsubstantiated bashing of DUers.

[RandomUser]

56. More than one of us read it

with our own eyes. I was like WTF? He stated he would vote for Bush over Clark.

[RandomUser]

52. That's because he edit it

He went back and erased it when we called him on it.

[imhotep]

59. here it is

I would consider voting for anyone but Clark and that includes Bush.
You didn't "call me" on anything.

[RandomUser]

78. Finally

Thank you for the clarification. There might be some misunderstanding. Let people make of this statement what they wish. But at least they're not saying we're lying and bashing.

[JVS]

62. You have no proof

You are just like the Clark bashers.

[RandomUser]

79. Proof

that he said he would vote for bush over clark. He just reposted his statement.

[JVS]

85. But that doesn't mean he'll vote for Bush

I'd vote for Pat Buchannon over Bush, but certainly there will be a better choice than Buchannon

[RandomUser]

89. Agreed

That's what I meant, given a choice between Bush and Clark, he'd vote for Bush.

[JVS]

94. Too hypothetical

It is a large leap in logic to say that that equates to support for Bush

[Blue_Chill]

29. So let me get this straight

Clark used to vote repug and stopped. So we have to hate him.

You bitch and moan and Clark, but now cosider voting for Bush? Seems clear to me who is the fraud here and who isn't.

[JVS]

35. The Imhotep will vote for Bush meme has already been debunked

[imhotep]

40. here is the deal

if corporations and the pentagon are going to win, I will do what I can to make sure it isn't under the label "Democratic"

[wyldwolf]

60. You just keep stepping in it deeper.

[RandomUser]

66. Nope

More than one eye witness. Unless you're saying all of us are lying. He wrote it, then when people said they'd bookmark it, he went back and edited it. But I know what I saw. He stated he would vote for Bush, and that that's how much he hates Clark. I would say it's debunked if there was only one of us. But how would you explain when several of us responded that we saw the statement? Are all of us conspiring? Believe the word of one man (who went back and edited his post), or the word of a group of DU'ers who all saw it.

[JVS]

70. That isn't solid evidence. Quit bashing Imhotep

[RandomUser]

77. So saying we saw what we saw is lying?

You have a choice. One of the two are lying. Imhotep, or a bunch of DU'ers who saw it. I wasn't even the one who first called him on it.

[JVS]

80. It isn't verified

[RandomUser]

82. Read the new post

He posted it again. He would consider voting for anyone but Clark, even Bush.

[JVS]

90. Sorry not adequate

If you are at thanksgiving dinner with your mom, dad, three brothers and partner and you say "I am going to have sex with someone in this room other than dad" One cannot assume that you meant your mom.

[Kahuna]

20. The most afervent Clark-bashers are GREEEENS..

whose stated mission statement is the demise of the Democratic party unless we capitulate to their demands.

I just believe in full disclosure here. A lot of them are posing as Democrats but they're Greens. Figure it out.

[imhotep]

27. why is it that

greens are the devil but republican moderates are "swing voters?"

[Padraig18]

37. It's because...

...unlike the moderate Republicans, there is virtually NO chance the Greens will vote Dem-- just like they didn't in 2000, and saddled us with Bush. :grr:

[VolcanoJen]

39. Just out of honest curiousity, imhotep, how do you feel about...

... Jim Jeffords?

[IndianaGreen]

92. I see all the things the Senate Democrats have done for Jeffords lately

Here is the list:

(this space intentionally left blank)

:eyes:

[JVS]

51. Because Greens are supposed to be their bitches in the Big House, oops

I mean in the Big Tent

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

57. Interesting since with the election of Bush, the greens have turned us all

into his subjects. I guess the Green tent isn't all that big either since it can't tolerate anyone who doesn't match its ideological position.

[JVS]

74. I wouldn't know, I'm not a green and I voted Gore

But when I hear the ABBers start to bellow "BEND OVER" I realize that I may be leaving soon

[noiretextatique]

76. greens not only disenfranchised eligible voters

but they also wrote that horrid scotus decision, in addition to threatenening to send bush electors, regardless of the outcome of the florida elections. and it was also greens who failed to address the florida voter purge scam...the one that eliminated more than enough voters to put gore over the top in florida. they are everywhere :hi:

[noiretextatique]

55. LOL..and for the upteenth time: some greens vote for democrats

a finer point some routinely dismiss in their zeal to prove they are of "pure" Democratic stock. too bad that "purity" doesn't apply to some presidential candidates :eyes:

[IndianaGreen]

84. Stop beating the Green/Nader dead horse and WAKE UP!

Clark is a neocon Trojan Horse, an unrepentant Reaganite, and a war criminal to boot!

[diplomats]

43. I will vote for the Dem nominee

no question

[Squibbie]

58. Candidates I would vote for over Bush

Edwards
Kerry
Kucinich
Mosley-Braun
Dean
Clark
Lieberman
Sharpton
Graham
Gephart

Not in any particular order of taste or distaste.

[Armstead]

46. See this thread for an antedote

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=423744

[PurityOfEssence]

53. Okay, for myself...

I have rebuffed Clark--and especially his supporters--on the idological issues and, having ears and eyes would actively campaign for him should he be the nominee. (I'm for the Democratic Nominee, period.)

His speech in New Hampshire goes a long way to dispel some dislikes I have, and he's still too far right for me, but I'll close ranks and do all I can to destroy Bush.

I've actively and repeatedly pointed out that electability simply isn't an issue with Dean; he can beat Junior. I don't think he can beat Junior as handily as Edwards (who I still contend has the best chance, and who happens to be ideologically more to my liking) or possibly Kerry or Clark, but it's not an issue. Dean shouldn't be marginalized as unelectable.

My problems with Dean are Dean himself, his far-too-"centrist" stances on things and the tone of many of his supporters. Far too many Dean supporters flatter themselves and their guy with the ridiculous delusion that the only reasons people would be against Dean are war-loving, fear of electability and some kind of stodgy denial. He has serious personality issues, has comported himself deceptively and isn't what he allows himself to be portrayed as. Still, having said that, he's infinitely better than Junior, and even with his nasty tactics, is not beyond the pale.

Fair enough?

[tsipple]

83. Here Are My Basic Requirements for a Democratic Nominee

1. Meet the U.S. Constitutional requirements for the office. (Born in the country, age, etc.)
2. Have a pulse and breathe every once in a while.
3. Have something vaguely resembling Democratic Party positions on various issues. (Lieberman qualifies, so I'm not strict.)
4. Be able to say that you are a Democrat for, I don't know, six months?
5. Not help Republicans raise money only 28 months ago.

:wtf: Why don't we just nominate Ben Nighthorse Campbell or Richard Shelby? Better yet, why don't we nominate John McCain? He's "electable." He could beat Bush.

Damn, I feel like I've been lied to. This sucks.

[dkf]

100. Wow. That's exactly how I feel.

If winning were everything, we should just nominate John McCain or Rudy Giuliani as the Dem candidate already.

This is sick seeing someone who was fundraising for the Repubs (as if they needed more money!) very recently trying to get the Dem nomination. Folks, he was raising money against us! sick sick sick.

If Clark wins, the Democratic party is over as it will be shown to be soulless. Heck, I'm not sure I'll stay in the party. And after all these Clinton shenanigans I find it disgusting beyond all belief.

I don't know what I'll do.

[bitchkitty]

87. If Clark gets the nomination

I will vote for him. I'm still "ABB". But after the election, when Bush is out of there, I'll register as Green. I've been knocked further and further left since 2000 by pseudo-Dems who suck up to the BFEE.

I won't waste my vote, and in a close election will probably vote for the "lesser of two evils" but the same energy that I've put into pushing the Dems will go into pushing the Greens. I honestly don't know why I'm not a Green, since I agree with nearly everything they stand for.

[TreasonousBastard]

91. Amazing, isn't it?

"Edit: This was wild! I posted this as a not so subtle anti-flaming
comment. What did I get? Flaming! (not from all). Go figure."

Are assholes equally distributed across the political spectrum? It would seem so from some of the arguments around here.

But, remember that his is now, before we're really into some fierce primary battles, and this is DU, where there are more than the typical number of True Believers in whatever it is they believe in. They're comparing their candidates to the other Democrats running.

Of course, there's a busload of trolls around, too.

Come next November, I'd put money up that 99% of the people here will vote for whoever is nominated. Dean, Clark, Kerry, or anyone else, even Lieberman won't look bad at all compared with the turd we're really running against.

[mike_c]

93. wow, the republican wing of the democratic party...

...sure comes out in droves whenever anyone criticizes El Generalisimo.

Note that I'm responding to the flurry of replies, not to the original post. As for that, I will never vote for Bush-- unless by happy chance I end up on his jury some day and get to vote to convict-- but nor will I vote for Clark. I'm sure there will be several progressive candidates run by third parties. I also agree with Tinoire's statement that a Clark nomination will likely fracture the democratic party permanently. Those of us on the left are already wondering what the hell we're still doing here.

Pepperbelly once advised me to not let the door hit my ass on the way out. While not particulary constructive, his remark was likely prescient if Clark gets the party nod.

[tsipple]

99. Are We Democrats So Hopeless...

...That we have to nominate someone who couldn't (or wouldn't) even admit he was a Democrat two months ago? :wtf:

I want a Democrat, dammit! Pick one! Any one! Is that too much to ask?