So then we are abou to lose CA

[jiacinto]

I am really upset at the prospect of all of this. I really am.

[West Coast Democrat]

1. Hold On!

A California Chamber of Commerce poll showed Schwarzenegger ahead of Bustamante, 35 percent to 31 percent, with McClintock at 17 percent. The poll of 807 likely voters on Wednesday and Thursday had a 3.5 percent plus or minus error probability.

(near end of article)

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/yhoo/story.asp?guid=%7B00BCBEA3-0AE3-4298-BB84-D1D4F890C6D1%7D&siteid=myyahoo&dist=myyahoo

[Sweetpea]

5. The margin is still too close for comfort...It is truly depressing.

[jiacinto]

6. Yeah yeah

but Bustamnete seems to have squandered his lead.

[diplomats]

18. What happened to it?

Was it the debate? Things seemed to be going so well for us before that.

[AmeriCanadian]

68. ... I'm tellin' ya, it was Bustamante's "Promises"

... This whole mess thouroughly upsets me.

http://cnn.allpolitics.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&expire=-1&urlID=7710325&fb=Y&partnerID=2001

[Fixated]

2. .....

On the plus side, we still hold the South. ::picks up phone:: What? Since when? What happened?? Oh...yeah that makes sense.

[CatWoman]

4. ....

Fixated -- I love the "...." trademark :D

[Fixated]

51. ...

It's the only reason anyone knows me!

[goobergunch]

3. It's still a Toss-Up IMHO.

But I am going to :puke: if the Cyborg gets "elected".

[AP]

7. I think Clark is going to go save the day for the Democrats.

He's campainging in Arnolds' back yard, S.Cal, on Oct 1st.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

8. How can a "gallup poll" be trusted???

They have been highly incorrect in the past and this may be biased towards the Gropenator!!!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. Actually Gallup Foretold The Puke Pickup In 02....

NT

[PROGRESSIVE1]

28. In 2000 they had Bush leading 15 point one week then had...

Gore ahead by 10% the next week!

[noiretextatique]

9. do you really think this is useful?

there are some DUer working their butts off to make sure this doesn't happen.

[jiacinto]

13. I am just dejected by the news Arnold is ahead by 15

nt

[noiretextatique]

14. another poll has him ahead by only 4 points nt

[PROGRESSIVE1]

39. Please give us a link!

.

[noiretextatique]

62. see post #1 for the link

:hi: no giant chimp in sacramento...vote NO on the recall!

[jeter]

79. Carlos, he's not ahead by 15%, that much is certain

He may be ahead though. I still have this gut feeling we're going to pull it through. I just can't believe how badly the Democrats fucked up here. This recall should have been a walk in the park. But too much infighting between Davis and Bustamante.

I still think we win. If we lose, we blame the whole thing on Bush. Remember the Sec. of State in CA is an elected Democrat, and the State Senate and Legislature is Democratic as well. Arnold won't be able to do anything. I bet you the public turns on him if he does pull through.

I have seen non stop Arnold attack ads in the past two days on TV. If he had such a huge lead, he wouldn't be attacking.

Gallup is wrong, the way they're always wrong.

[Character Assassin]

10. Nah, I'm still here.

[AmeriCanadian]

12. Me too, I think it's because CA voters remember Bustamante said ...

... To cure the States ills he would raise taxes, hand over driver's licenses and provide free medical services to illegal aliens and ban private ownership of firearms from law abiding free men.

... That's what got Davis on the recall ballot in the first place!

... I believe Cruz Bustamante should have throttled back on these issues if there were hope for a Democrat candidate to reach office.

[Classical_Liberal]

16. nope it is because Arnold excites the public

with celebrity. There aren't that many militia people in California.

[AmeriCanadian]

22. Not "militia" people as much as sporting enthusiasts and

... Rightful gun owners. Look at the bill Davis signed into law last week banning nearly every form of handgun made in the USA. Are you so naive to think that it's not going to affect millions?

[Classical_Liberal]

40. Most moved to Idaho and Montana

when the Defense industry collapsed after the coldwar. They didn't have to get many people to sign the petition to start a recall either. The people who would be upset about these issues and think about them the way you do are McClintock voters, and he sure as heck isn't goint to win. Davis is unpopular because of the economy. Arnold is popular because he is a celeb.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Classical_Liberal]

46. What are you talking about?

?

[NashVegas]

70. The California Budget Gaps

In Wilson's final year as governor Cali state expenditures jumped from 67-72 billion. 1999, which would also likely have been Wilson's budget, the jump was 72.56 to 82.28. The 2000 budget jump was to 92.02.

Davis's projected budget for 2001 tried to stem the tide, featuring a mere (snickers) 6 billion jump (98.3). For 2002, was a projected backtrend to 94 billion and down to 89 for 2003.

Now, throw in 40-45 billion worth of price-gouging, and what do you expect to happen?

[Classical_Liberal]

73. Rephrase: Who are you talking too?

I didn't bring that up in my post.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

80. Short attention span?

Davis is unpopular because of the economy From your own post.

[Classical_Liberal]

83. Thin skinned?

I still don't get it. That is why he is unpopular. Your post seems fairly unrelated, and claiming that I was lying about his unpopularity is over the top. That wasn't editorializing. That is just an objective fact.

[NashVegas]

104. The Person Above You Did

And you reacted as though they were pulling something out of their ass ("what are you talking about?").

I don't know why it was deleted, but going by memory, I think the poster said something about how the gap increased dramatically in the Wilson admin's final throws, and Davis has been trying to bring it down.

The point of the excersize was to show you just how well Cali is being propagandized.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

114. Yes I erroneously told the truth about the fact that the poster

has no clue about California and has deliberately misled this board about Gray Davis and my post was removed.

Here is the text of what I printed:
The gap between revenue and spending is indisputable — it is the heart of the state's current budget crisis. But a close examination of where spending went up illustrates why keeping California's budget in balance has become so difficult, regardless of which party controls the governor's office.

Although the precise 40% figure used by Republicans is debatable, spending during the Davis years has grown faster than the combined effects of inflation and the state's population would suggest. But the same was true during the last Republican administration.

Spending from the state's general fund, currently $70 billion, actually grew by a smaller percentage in the first four years of Davis' tenure than during the preceding four years under Gov. Pete Wilson, when the inflation rate was lower.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/recall/la-me-spend28sep28,1,1632887.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Since the truth is a threat to the poster, he had it removed and went crying to the mods.

[okieinpain]

119. that's what I was thinking but you never really hear anyone

put it like that. davis is probably the only one speaking to this issue, cruz should have left the tough love crap in his desk drawer, who the hell advised this man.

[AmeriCanadian]

45. And Nevada, Arizona & Utah. But that does not mean CA residents

... That stayed don't feel alienated by these draconian and desperate measures levied on them by Davis. Trust me, they don't trust him any longer.

... I think the whole reacll is a sham, but that doesn't excuse the treasonous acts on law abiding guns owners that number in the millions!

... I've sadi it before, we need to rethink the power gun owners have with their votes. I'm serious.

[Classical_Liberal]

49. I think they are mostly the small McClintock Demographic

That is a lot of people, but California is big enough that this dwindling minority is lots of people. He didn't take guns from any law abiding citizens. Just asked them to register them.

[noiretextatique]

69. a lot of people who actually LIVE in california

support gun control. just ask some of the folks in east oakland and south central los angeles.

[pbeal]

54. No Davis on the recall ballot because of a crazed winger with money

Davis was against Every thing you just said, The republican wingnuts are simply poor losers and even worse winners.

So stop lieing

[AmeriCanadian]

55. What? Didn't Bustamante just say he would raise taxes, give drivers ...

licenses to illegals in the debate? Don't call me a liar.

... BTW, Davis did just sign into law the most sweeping anit-gun legislation in recent history last week.

... Come on, where's the love?

[Classical_Liberal]

67. He gave licenses to illegals, so what

You can't get around in California otherwise. You want them driving without lisences? He is only going to raise taxes on the rich who can afford it, and his pro-registration legislition didn't take guns away from any law abiding citizens.

Your a right winger on a lefty board. You shouldn't expect to much love.

[AmeriCanadian]

71. I am not a right-winger, why must you call names? Look, I'm just ...

... Stating what's floating around offices, churches and barstools. I'm not making this up!

... I fully support the NO vote and if it fails I fully support the Democratic ticket, so why the fuck are you throwing accusations about my party preference around.

... Sheese

[Classical_Liberal]

87. People who float this stuff have a candidate

and he is nowhere near a democrat. He is McClintock.

[AmeriCanadian]

88. ... Perhaps, but let's not alienate those folks on our side

... OK?

[okieinpain]

120. the mexican nationals are terrorist, or didn't you hear that

.

[Emboldened Chimp]

15. Look for Davis to fire all cannons in the last week

He's going to go negative like you've never seen before. Ads, push polls, attack, attack, attack. Davis is as ruthless as they come, and in this instance, I welcome it.

[AmeriCanadian]

19. You may be quite alone on that sentiment

... any repectful voter sees right through the negativeism these days, and it turns most of us off cold.

[boxster]

27. I hate to disagree, but I think negative campaigning is

still effective. I've seen it work way too well out here in the Midwest. A lot of people are gullible and it just doesn't take much to sway them.

Look at Bush/Gore in 2000. All we heard over and over was how much of a liar Gore was (in the media). Then, that's all I heard at work, etc., for months. People were buying into the Bush BS that he was honest, blah, blah, and that Gore was a chronic liar.

[AmeriCanadian]

30. Again, you're in a minoity these days

... most voters prefer candidates that argue their position through strength and honor versus a position of weakness, discgrace and emotion.

... not saying "Ahnold" wouldn't stoop to it but Davis' track record centers on it.

[boxster]

81. I just don't see that.

Look at Bush/McCain in the primary in 2000. Bush's negative tactics against McCain in SC changed the tone of the election, and frankly, I think it turned the momentum away from McCain toward Bush.

Max Cleland (SC, again) lost 3 limbs in Vietnam. His opponent ran tons of ads accusing him of being unpatriotic. He was way ahead going into the late stretches of the campaign, but lost, and I think that the negative ads had a ton to do with that.

Or Davis' campaign in California in '02. His support in the polls was abysmal and he ran one of the most negative campaigns in recent memory, but he won.

And, I don't recall saying that I was in favor of negative campaigning. I just believe that it works. I know for a fact that it works here in the Midwest because I've seen it work and talked to tons of people afterwards regarding why they voted the way they did.

[SharonAnn]

116. Not true. Just repeating something doesn't make it so. I wish

that voters would pay attention to the issues but candidates use negative campaigning BECAUSE IT WORKS!

[Emboldened Chimp]

29. Not true

The reason campaigns go negative is because it works. People do react to it. In an ideal world, your sentiment would be the norm; in the real world, it is the exception.

Look at Rove. How did he wipe McCain out of the race? Push polls and a whisper campaign that appealed to the worst in voters. Same thing will happen here. I'm not saying I approve of it on a general level, but in this instance I do, if only because this whole recall is nothing but a power grab by the right wing. In this case, the ends do justify the means--the end being honoring our elections and preserving our democracy.

They're playing for keeps. So should we. The gloves are off.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

41. Bingo manco!!!!

The people must be turned off by Arnie!

[mitchtv]

109. too late to go negative

many have voted and the rest have made up their minds There are a few hypocites here(you Know who you are)(Not you Manco) who must be very happy 'cause you have been trashing Davis for weeks. Calling other people rightist doesn't help redeem your Arnold enabling behavior. Thank god you can't vote in Our state

[Democat]

82. Are you actually a Democrat

Every post of yours seems to be attacking Democrats and supporting Arnold?

[AmeriCanadian]

97. You need to read my posts

... I've said time and again, NO on recall, YES on Democratic candidate regardless.

... What bothers you is that I've posted bits and pieces I've heard from neighbors and co-workers.

... Sorry, I guess your rose colored glasses need cleaning I guess.

... and yes, I'm a registered Democrat and have been for years

[okieinpain]

122. not really, the repugs do it all the time. and lets see they

control the white house, house, congress, picked up quite a few state seats. their little stinking news network is number one. oh I don't know maybe you're right and going negative doesn't help.

[AP]

17. One of the stupid things about this recall is that if Davis campaigns, it

hurst Cruz. If Cruz campaings well, it hurst Davis.

I think the no vote is going up, and Cruz is going down right now.

What they need is a front running Republican whom they can both attack. Arnold is getting the post-debate bump (and the media is totally in his camp in CA -- it's shameless).

This will all come down to the last week and, if Arnold is in the lead then, I think we're going to see Clark bashing him relentlessly.

[diplomats]

20. I'm not sure even Clark can help

Clinton, Gore and others have campaigned for Davis but Arnold is still gaining.

[AP]

23. All the others are rallying Dems to vote and that's working

The media/Republicans wanted low voter turnout, and the Dems fought that back effectively.

Now, Clark is the guy who draws out the fakery that is Arnold.

Note, Arnold uses the HumVee as a central part of his identiy. How does any Dem candidate other than Clark draw out the problem with that? None of the others do.

Clark does that.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

21. Wesley Clark's my choice!!!! He should bash Arnie Boy....

all the way!!! I CANNOT believe that this is happening, that this ding dong is going to become governor! I hope I'm wrong! Dianne Feinstein was right when she said that all efforts should be put into defeating the recall! We'll never hear the end of how great Arnie is! At the same time the REICH WINGERS will still be bashing the left in Hollywood!


:kick:

[knight_of_the_star]

25. He WILL have something to say

Any idea where this speech is going to be? I want to see him talk in person! Clark is going to nail Ahnuld to a wall! I seriously hope that he does, that will not make ahnuld look good and it will help build Clark up.

[_NorCal_D_]

101. Ah-nold

will 'invite' Bush to gallivant and parade through California in 2004. Damn it we can't let this happen!

[knight_of_the_star]

24. We may lose this battle

But the way I see it is that because the Repigs have set the standard that recalls can be used for political reasons, just wait two or three months and a new recall will take place. Trust me. If Ahnuld fucks up that quickly, which will probably happen, then I intend to make every effort I can to give him the same treatment that was given to Davis.

[chookie]

63. I don't agree

I think you are really vastly underestimating the shameless hypocrisy of the radical right.

The same people who were so outraged by Bill Clinton extramarital affairs have sanctified Arnold's sleazy past and overlook his sexual misbehavior. Not logical -- but it works.

All along there has been a major dissonance between dramatizing economic meltdown in California by lynching Gray Davis, but blessing the economic meltdown of the United States under George W. Bush. Go figure.

So IF The Dark Lord is on the march and Sauron is about to take over California, things are going to get much worse there, but what WILL change is how these same people will talk about it. Suddenly, it will be "Hate Speech" to say anything negative about California's economy. Arnold will be hailed as a Great Leader and there will be talk about allowing foreigners to run for President.

Trust me. Arnold (or rather his puppet masters) ARE going to fuck up on a very large scale, bringing about hardship there that people are going to be shocked to see, and yes, there will be a national repercussion and NATIONALLY things will get worse. If California goes to radical Republican control, they will "elect" George W Bush in 2004.

It's a matter of time before California is hit by a terror attack, on top of everything else, and just imagine what that is going to do. But Arnold will be sent out to talk Terminator, and we will be told about how lucky we are to have such a mightly leader to see us through the crisis.

The Fall of California is going to be remembered as a fateful day in history, when things went from bad to much, much worse....

[knight_of_the_star]

72. I will still fight on

To run from the battle that must be fought would be dishonourable and unchivalrous. I will not run while there still is a war to be fought and the possibility of victory looms on the horizon. I care not if they try to shut us down, I will fight on anyway, for it will be the good fight that has to be fought. To fail to do so would allow for a darkness far worse than anything that this nation has experienced.

[chookie]

77. Hell yeah!!

Me too. I'm right there next to you, brother. I will never give in.

[knight_of_the_star]

85. Huzzah!

'Tis a far better thing to die as free men than to live as slaves!

[catzies]

117. Today's Doonesbury is about starting recall of Schwarzenegger

right away!

[PROGRESSIVE1]

26. See this link:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/09/26/MN173997.DTL


It seems that the Democratic base is moving back to their partisan roots! This is the only way that we can defeat this coup!!!!

[Gingergal]

Hope that article is true.

That is precisely what Al Gore told them in his anti-recall speech in Calif.
<http://www.algoredemocrats.com/news/gnn/EpyuppZlAZWHHfoNKo.shtml>

[Tatiana]

31. Bustamante is not a better choice than Davis.

I believe the debate showed that. Hence, Ahnuld's minor lead.

The only choice is for every Democrat in California is to vote NO on the recall. Davis isn't Einstein or FDR, but he's certainly better than the alternatives.

[noiretextatique]

32. NO on the recall would end this circus nt

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

33. Not as depressed as I am seeing this title on DU and seeing people

who have not done anything to help us actually HURT us with posts here.

We are still fighting here in California. Arnold has gottena BUMP from his ONE debate appearance. IT will hopefully fade in a few days. Many people have already sent in their absentee ballots so even if McClintock drops now, it won't matter....there is NO doubt there are votes for Simon, Ueberroth and Issa on thos ballots as their names are on the ballots as well.

The only thing these polls can do at this point since this is anyone's game is suppress Dem voter turnout. I suspect that is the point in releasing them.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

34. Agree with your post!!!

By the way, anyone who voted for Issa is a looser!!!

:eyes:

[salin]

36. If it helps

I stole a vote from Arnie, yesterday. Talking to a friend in Vegas, who had another friend visiting from LA.

Don't know that I can get her to no on recall - but opened her eyes and she declared she would NEVER vote for arnie.

How could it be - she had never read any of the items re: arnie and his objectionable treatment/statements towards women. Didn't take many - along with his wife's comment to a rape survivor after an interview that her husband (arnie) would leave her if she was ever raped because she would be damaged goods (imagine internalizing THAT message?!?!). She was aghast.

That says that those stories really aren't getting much play or coverage. How can people NOT know/hear these things?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

38. Not much coverage on the news and the local papers save for the times

are sucking Arnie off. I was up in the valley on Friday and got a hold of their local paper. After reading it, I got the impression that everyone in the valley whacks off to visions of Arnold. Remember we have DYNCORP and a number of defense businesses here in LA.

Even Democrats in Hollywood who think they'll get a gig if they kiss Arnold's ass are supporting him.

I was so angry, I was coming from the Burbank airport in my convertible and saw an Arnold bumper sticker on a vehicle, I screamed out "FUCK ARNOLD" at the top of my lungs...at least I got a :thumbsup: from the UPS driver next to me.

[salin]

43. I can't believe it - really - even cynical me

that the media - with so much available, reliable information - is blanking out. Never again can anyone claim there is a liberal bias to the press. Imagine had there been this much out there available on Clinton.

Saw some stupid glossy magazine and the local grocery checkout - all about Ahnald and Maria. Looked like it wasn't even a regular magazine. In frickin' Indiana.

Where is the OUI article - where are the naked pics - where are all the icky stuff that would repulse the law and order repukes?

[PROGRESSIVE1]

44. HaHa!!!

"Fuck Arnold" or better yet don't!

Partial list of celebrities that are supported "Das Groper":

Jamie Lee Curtis
Rob Lowe
Vivica Fox
Vanessa Williams
Dennis Miller :puke:
Kelsey Grammer (ugly Reich Wing WASP type)

I will NOT being buying these people's products anymore!


:kick:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

50. All these fucking bastards can suck my ass...a big drain on unemployment

benefits in California comes from HOLLYwood itself where the staff of television programs save for anyone who actually gets credits on the screen comes from the industry. Television programs go in seasons and they only pay for the portion of the year that grippers and other non-credited ancillary film staff as well as extras, casting staff and others work...then they go on unemployment every year like clockwork...but you won't see Arnold attacking THAT problem...or any Dems since they count on contributions nor any Republicans since Disney, et al are owned by them and burden the state with their lack of living wages for support staff and seasonal work.

[Loyal]

102. Didn't like all of the California papers

endorse a No vote on the recall? That's what I heard, so maybe some good news.

[Gingergal]

35. Yes I am worried especially after reading the following.

Another title for this is Bush finally hits the trifecta.
Very troubling and scary....
<http://www.freepress.org/columns.php?strFunc=display&strID=761&strYear=2003&strAuthor=7>

[PROGRESSIVE1]

37. If California is so Democratic then why are they allowing....

the "Groper" to become their governor??? Why give Bush who has "F"ed them big time to get a victory???

[AP]

47. If jiacinto thinks we'll lose CA, I think there's a good chance we'll win

J., what's your track record so far? You though KKT was going to win in MD and that McWhat'shishame was going to win in FL. Those are the only two Dems I ever remember you thinking were going to win. You also thought privatizing utilities in the third world was a good idea, but I don't know how to measure whether that's right or wrong.

Other than that, you remind me of Sid Blumenthal's discription of George S. -- apparently Stephanopoulis was the Chicken Little of the White House. He always thought the sky was falling.

[jiacinto]

48. Well

I thought KKT could eke out a win because of the state's overwhelming Democratic bent in the hope that they would come home in the final days. I was wrong.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

52. Then the trends showing Davis gaining momentum are correct...

and the Recall can still be defeated!!!

We should have never put Bustamante on the ballot!

DiFi was right when she said that we should concentrate on defeating this coup!

[CatWoman]

58. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

IT'S SO TRUE!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Carlos -- you should really give up the prognosticating :D

[Imajika]

59. Actually..

"If jiacinto thinks we'll lose CA, I think there's a good chance we'll win"

...I think jiacinto has a better grasp of shifting demographics, the political atmosphere in most states and localities, where candidates REALLY stand on the issues, and a more realistic view of how elections will unfold than most people on this forum.

I am not surprised he thought KKT would edge out Ehrlich in Maryland as many people believed that she would. The surge of Democratic strength in that state did play out to some extent with Chris Van Hollen beating Morella, but it wasn't enough to help Townsend.

I don't recall him predicting McBride beating Jeb. That would surprise me considering how poor a candidate McBride was - but everyone misses one once in awhile.

Imajika

[AP]

66. All I'm saying is that jiacinto needs someone to blow a little sunshine up

his ass, 'cause he's always so negative about Democratic prospects, and I'm also saying that that I don't remember jiacinto predicting a race correctly yet. I'll also say now that jiacinto does do the county-by-county research.

[jiacinto]

91. MD

Well I though that the state's heavily Democratic advantage would push KKT to the top. But there was so much dislike against her that I should have realized it.

[AP]

95. For someone so pessimistic, you'd think that when you were optimistic...

...about a candidate, they would have won by a mile.

[sventvkg]

53. I saw the debate and NO Way Arnie is fit to be governer of CA...

If Californians elect this moron than i've completely lost faith in people and the democrats..There is no excuse to loose California to a man who is so grossly unfit to be Governer of the worlds 5th larges economy and our nations biggest electorate. I mean, come on how fucking stupid can people continue to be???? If Arnie wins, it's proof that the Dems better take a lesson once and for all from Rove and start fighting tooth and nail if they think they are going to take back the white house and the legislative branch..I mean, we had the longest prosperity of a nation and wiped out the deficits in 8 years of beautiful expansion under Clinton..And what happens???? The Dems promply lose the White house and loose even more of a majority in the legislative branch!!!!!! Does that sound to you even romotely SANE????? Are the American people out of their collective fucking minds???? Oh, we've done so great in the past 8 years, lest just go the 180 degree complete opposite direction in philosiphy because, Heck i'm sure that will just do the trick????? This is flat out INSANE Logic!!!!!! Our problem is the Democratic party just fucking sucks!!! We need new leadership, a new more exciting message and we need to adopt Roves Negative, tooth and nail fight fight fight fight tactics to beat the Republicans...It's the only way it will happen..I'm telling you, it's basic and if we want a Government for the people we need to start fighting...Otherwise, we may as well all move to Canada

[sventvkg]

56. Kick

[chookie]

57. My prediction about what is going to happen

I don't know how many people realize how grave this prospect is. California, a powerful state with an extremely important economy, is about to fall in a coup de tete. Arnold is going to be their new puppet. I don't even think he realizes what he's gotten himself in for - he may be too drunk on his own ego, and I think they intend to keep him that way, the same way they do for smirky the chimp.

I predict that California will go from merely being in crisis to fall into catastrophe. The other thing that will change is that SUDDENLY, even though everything has gotten much worse, we'll hear about how great things really are there, and how the media is focusing on negative things, when really California has never been as well off as under Arnold, and anyone who talks facts on the ground will be accused of Hate Speech or Liberal Bias. Then -- California will "elect" Bush in 2004. We'll hear about how FINALLY democracy has triumphed there, and how FINALLY the Will of The People is on the march.

Anyone who think things can't get much worse than they are now better hold on to their asses, because if these things come to pass, we're REALLY going to be living history....

[sventvkg]

61. I Really really hope your apocolyptic prediction is wrong.....

What you are saying in effect is, chimp will win in 04...Flat out..Now way we can win if the election is anywhere nearly as close as it was in 2000 if we loose California...If this happens, I will BLAME THE DEMOCRATS for being too fucking weak to deserve to lead...It's obvious that most americans share the views of most democrats yet we can't seem to get the message out there..Our leadership is still basically at the whim of whomever big business decides to back and we get laws and policies that favor corporations over the well being of the people....THIS IS COMPLETELY FUCKED UP AND SOMEONE BETTER START DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT FROM A GRASS ROOTS LEVEL!!!!!! I can scream about it till the cows come home but people, we need to get in the fucking game here!!! If the dems loose, in my view they are over until they have a complete paradigm change..I weep for out childern..We are going down like the Roman empire people, and if you can't see it then you are blind....

[chookie]

76. CA is key to their strategy

They don't *campaign* on this openly, but what they intend to force on the US is one party rule, and specifically, that of its most extreme wing.

California is the next step in this process. I'm not saying that they have it easy, because California wil be challenging for them to bring down.

If California falls, it will because their strategies have succeeded brilliantly. Part of the strategy is to do this by stealth and deception - they can't be open about what they wish to achieve, because the American people reject it, so they have to do it by stealth, by running extremists as moderates who will emerge as Trojan Horses when they are "elected."

If California falls, and because their strategies have succeeded brilliantly, then I think it is extremely naive to think that they will not succeed in the national elections. I mean, they successfully stole the election in 2000, and no body stopped them, so who is going to stop them now?

If smirky "wins" in 2004, sorry -- all bets are off. People's heads will spin when they see what is going to happen out of CA and FL and TX, because they will have seized control, virtually, over the whole country and NOTHING will be in their way.

However, if California does not fall to the Dark Lord, then it will be a foreshadowing of a coming Age of Sanity in the USA, and then I predict Bush will certainly lose, and lose decisively, in the national election. His campaign next year will really be something! They will do ANYTHING to keep his sorry ass in power, and don't think that they would not drop Cheney in favor of Condi Rice just to pander to Blacks and Women.

Oct 7 is a big, big deal. As it goes, so goes 2004.

[ForrestGump]

60. It's over? Did I miss something?

Over? Did you say 'over'?

Nothing is over until we decide it is!

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell, no! And it ain't over now.

'Cause when the goin' gets tough...the tough get goin'!

Who's with me?

Let's go!

[noiretextatique]

64. it would be nice

to wait for the actual ELECTION, eh FG? :hi:

[ForrestGump]

65. Oh, you....that's soooooo 1999

Startling concept, waiting for the election. I guess the Eeyores have to have their day, too, though.

:loveya:

[Imajika]

74. Hmmmm...

"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell, no! And it ain't over now."

I must have missed that. What year did that happen?

Hehehehe.

Imajika

[PROGRESSIVE1]

75. Arnold declines to debate Davis on Larry King! See Link:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=7&u=/ap/20030928/ap_on_el_gu/davis_recall_925

[KG]

78. why so upset?

CA is crawling with socialists, greens, far fringe lefties, commies, feminists, blacks, and sketchy neighborhoods. one would think you be happy to lose them. :)

[Kamika]

84. i think arnold will win.. time to face it

Sorry but ppl are sheep it sucks but what are you gonna do.

Arnold is a celebrity and known to be tough.. thats what people want

Best think we can do is to find a better candidate next time.


Yes i know I sound pretty pessimistic but i think im realistic aswell.

[Imajika]

86. Kamika

Off the subject.

Who is the girl in the picture on your signature line? I've been trying to figure out if I should know this person?

Thanks!

Imajika

[Oracle]

89. What are you saying...just give up? Don't bother to vote next week?

Fuck Arnold...so what if he wins...it means nothing.

Because NO on the recall will squeak by and Davis will remain the GUV.

Fuck all you doomsayers ALL of YOU...YOUR WRONG!

Stupid fucks!

[Kamika]

96. dont give up

Im not saying we should give up.. all im saying is that i dont think we will win cali.. thats all

[mitchtv]

108. thanks Oracle , I needed that

Did you see doonesbury today? he has a recall form against AS

[VOX]

90. How BAD is Arnold? He's a pal of Orrin Hatch, and Hummer gives him $$$...

I urge all DUers to read the folowing New Yorker article -- it's lengthy, but it spells out in detail the kind of lockstep Republican that Arnold is. This is a *serious* challenge to Democrats, and it has many disturbing portents for 2004.

If Democrats really want to win in 2004, the line must hold in California. If Arnold gets in, he becomes governor immediately. And Arnold will do what he can to could ensure another win for *.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?030929fa_fact

<snip>
The big technicality, of course, is a clause in Article II, Section 1, of the Constitution—the one that states, “No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President.” On July 10th, Senator Orrin Hatch, Republican of Utah, quietly introduced what he hopes will become the twenty-eighth amendment:

A person who is a citizen of the United States, who has been for 20 years a citizen of the United States, and who is otherwise eligible to the Office of President, is not ineligible to that Office by reason of not being a native born citizen of the United States.

As it happens, Arnold Schwarzenegger (who, according to the Deseret News, Hatch’s home-town paper, is both a “pal” and a “fund-raising helper” of the Senator’s) became a citizen of the United States precisely twenty years ago. Hatch is the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, where constitutional amendments originate. His amendment stands a good chance of going to the states, thirty-eight of which would be needed for ratification. It would certainly pass in the states where Latino and other foreign-born citizens, now twelve million strong, are concentrated, and legislators elsewhere might support it as a gesture toward the “nation of immigrants” catechism of America’s civic religion.

<snip>

...But then the California legislature passed a bill making undocumented aliens eligible for driver’s licenses, and Governor Davis signed it, and Schwarzenegger denounced it. So he was abruptly disinvited, not just from the Grand Marshalship {of the Mexican Independence Day parade} but also from the parade itself, and was left to find something else to do.

The something else was a kids’ softball tournament under the aegis of an after-school program called the Inner-City Games Los Angeles. It was a campaign event that would have been inconceivable for any other candidate. For one thing, the Inner-City Games Los Angeles (Arnold Schwarzenegger, executive commissioner) has been funded by the Inner-City Games Foundation (Arnold Schwarzenegger, chairman), to which a major donor has been the Hummer division of General Motors (Arnold Schwarzenegger, “unofficial spokesman”). Even leaving that aside, no other candidate could command the attention of eight camera crews and a score or so representatives of the state, national, and international press for what was essentially an exercise in baby-kissing.

<snip>

[Oracle]

93. As well as a pal of George Bush, Ken Lay and every republican

corporations, they have money...he's already made it clear he HATES Unions...Union are the only thing that helps the workers...management doesn't give a fuck about you...tmanagement only find ways to trim employees, cut their benefits and lower their wages and salaries...management doesn't care one fuck about...if they can hide their money off shore, pay no taxes, still receive tax give away and take their jobs overseas they will.

[uhhuh]

92. kick

n/t

[LittleApple81]

94. kick

[newyawker99]

98. kick

:kick:

[onefreespiritedchick]

99. I'm terrribly upset...

Being a Californian and all. The polls look terrible today. What in the world happened?

[AmeriCanadian]

100. people were "fed"

... by the Hollywood hoopla

[sventvkg]

103. Stupid Stupid Stupid and they deserve what they get...............

And if we legally elect Bush in 04 we deserve what we get too...I'll Be holed up in my mountain lair with huge Pyrenese Dogs and lots of weapons....I will prey for us all...:(

[noiretextatique]

105. and many DUers are falling for it

well...i don't buy it. the giant chimp will go down.

[proud patriot]

106. I really don't think we will

but then again I'm an optimist ...

[noiretextatique]

107. damn right, proud patriot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

me too :thumbsup: i wish people would stop this.

[proud patriot]

110. I missed you today noiretblu

I brought my son toooo :hi:
We ended up on channel seven news
My son, Terwilliger and myself .
Try to catch the 11pm ch7(abc) news ..
I taped it , in case they show a Different
segment tonight at 11 ...:wow:

[noiretextatique]

111. cool!!!! i will watch it

sorry i couldn't make, but i will be there is october :hi:

[proud patriot]

123. Great see you in October

:hi:

[philosophie_en_rose]

112. We'll win either way.

When Arnold loses, it will be a statement against the Repuke recall. If he wins, he'll have to deal with actual political issues and will be an utter failure. Thus, being the living example of why everyone should vote Democratic.

[okieinpain]

124. nope, the repugs will pump billions, billions of dollars into cali

the companies will move in by the dozens, losing money or not. they will do everything in their power to insure that arnold is a hit. gas prices will go down, federal money will pour in to insure there are no more electrical problems. crime will go down, because they will house prisoners in federal jails. if arnold get's in bush will get his reelection, okay maybe not but this will help his ass big time.

[sujan]

113. hahahahaha

blame on Peter Camejo

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

115. Well he did advocate the recall since he can't win any other way

even with his appearance at the debate, he barely improved in the polls. Face it GREENS are losers and spoilers for the Dem party...what is happening in California proves they may as well take a paycheck from Republicans for all the work they do for them....no sense whoring your anarchy for free.

[jiacinto]

118. Whatever

This is the same poster above who thinks, per an earlier thread, that Saddamm Hussein is "the best thing ever to happen to Iraq".

[sujan]

121. you are correct

I do think that.

Sell your neo-colonization ideas to your choir. I dont buy it.