Is there anything in the Bible that addresses when life begins?

[kittenpants]

I don't want to start a religious debate, but I just wonder if there is anything specific that the religious right draws on. I ask because conservative, religious zealouts believe so fervantly that life begins at conception. Where do they get this?

*also, I know the Bible says a lot of things... I'm just curious about this.

[lynettebro440]

1. They believe that it started when

God created Adam and Eve. That is their concept of the beginning of life.

[LiberalVoice]

2. Anyone who takes 99.9% of things stated in the bible literally....

will be one poor christian.

[Deja Q]

3. Abortion or how conception worked wasn't really known or thought of...

4000 years ago.

The Bible says lots of things; unfortunately the reich-wingers and their ilk typically use a salad fork to pick and choose which quotes to use and which to ignore rather than reading and interpreting the thing; which in turn makes the quotes they're more inclined to ignore that much more accurate!! (sharing, forgiving, helping the needy, et al.)

[ecstatic]

4. there are references to punishments for miscarriages

induced by someone else. The punishment? A fine... The punishment for killing a person outside the womb? Death.

[thereismore]

22. That reference is to "premature birth". If you injure a woman who gives

premature birth (but not death to either woman or child) you will be fined. This verse was mistranslated in one version as referring to "miscarriage".

[theboss]

5. Jerimiah 1:5 is the most cited verse

'Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." (KJV)

[SemperEadem]

23. isn't that regarding just one person and not every person?

after all, everyone running around is not an ordained prophet.

And what do the other unpublished gospels say about this issue? That's what I'd like to read.

[Coastie for Truth]

26. But some contemporary Jewish, Unitarian, and Islamic scholars

say that Jerimiah symbolically refers to a Messiah or Prophet -- not to all fetuses.

(Like the theory that Revelation is ongoing -- to "good" schizophrenics - like John Forbes Nash and (according to some) - St. Francis, the Bal Shem Tov, Joseph Smith, etc.)

So - to be totally cynical

'Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee with prophetic schizophrenia, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

[MadHound]

6. There are several Christian answers

The Bible doesn't specifically address this issue, so over the years, various sects of Christianity have come up with their own definition. The vast majority of Christians state that life begins at conception, some state that it begins at implantation, and a few believe that it when the baby is actually born.

Various other religions have varied opinions. There are tribes in Africa and elsewhere that believe that a child's life truly doesn't begin until the child is two years old. They don't name the child, except for a nickname, and they aren't terribly attached to it. Don't get me wrong, they take perfectly good care of the child, but they don't become attached to it until the kid is two. This is due to the very high mortality rates.

All this goes to show is that the issue of when life begins, and hence abortion's morality varies from religion to religion. Thus, it is a religious matters, yet in this country we have seperation of church and state. Thus we shouldn't be advocating one religious view on abortion over any other such view.

Cheers.

[kittenpants]

18. I agree completely that Christianity should not be the standard by which

abortion is legislated. I'm just curious about their (rabid pro-lifers') rationale... if you can call it that.

[dr.strangelove]

7. Religion

Many religious people base their understand on far broader bases than the bible. However, since you asked about the bible, here are a few passages from the bible.

Old Test.
If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. Exodus 21:22

If the lord permits punishment for causing a miscarriage and no other injury, then there must be a value in the fetus that is worth protecting.

New Test
Other areas describe the placement of a soul prior to birth. With regard to Jeremiah, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)

With respect to John the Baptist, "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother's womb." (Luke 1:15)

Both these passages suggest god placed some sole or blessing while in the womb. I understand this is the basis for resisting abortion on a biblical basis, that the bible tells us the lord places his blessing on the child in the womb.

I'm not suggesting one rely on the bible as a basis for anything, but if you want to rely on the bible as a source of god's rules, there appears to be evidence that the fetus has a sole and value as a life.

[On the Road]

8. A Couple of References to Being Formed in the Womb

but they don't say when or what the status is of the fetus.

The Protestant church was founded on taking guidance only from the Bible ("sola sciptura"). The Catholic Church, however, also believes in historical church teaching and interpretation. So Catholics actually have a better foundation for being anti-abortion. Neither group has a foundation in the Bible.

[patcox2]

9. They confuse the issue by saying "life." Its "personhood."

You see how they have moved the goalpost when they started using the "life begins at conception" slogan?

Sure, you cannot deny it, a zygote is alive. But so is a dog, or a bacteria.

The real issue is when is it a "person."

The bible never says with much clarity when you become a person. However, the western judeo-christian ethical traditions actually have some traits similar to the african beliefs discussed above, their is the tradition of when people achieve the age of reason, for example, before which they are not wholly human.

Probably the single most important evidence that a fetus was not considered a person was in the criminal sanction discussed above; this is a clear and straightforward rule, the penalty for assaulting someone with the result that a fetus was killed or aborted was punished as a tort, not as a homicide.

There is in the new testament a reference to the mothers of Mary and John the Baptist meeting while they were both pregnant, and the fetuses of Jesus and the Baptist recognizing each other and starting to "jump about in the womb." Thats the best evidence that the unborn might have been considered people.

[JDPriestly]

15. What verse tells that the mothers of Mary and John the Baptist

met? Where is that?

[SemperEadem]

24. Luke 1:39-56

<39> At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, <40> where she entered Zechariah's home and greeted Elizabeth. <41> When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.


I believe they were cousins.

[klyon]

10. when I was growing up in the 50s it was the quickening

not sure of the spelling but the quickening, in Catholic terms, was the first time the mother felt the fetus move or kick. After that if miscarried the baby could be laid to rest in the cemetery. I have never been Catholic but grew up in a mostly Catholic neighborhood and had many friends that went to Catholic school.

KL

[papau]

16. the quickening (about 20 weeks) is the usual - but the soul enters

at
1. at the quickening (as it did for special folks like John the B and Jesus)as life enters.

2. at birth

3. After birth (during first 1000 years AD many said 60 days for males, 90 days for females)

4. Depends on how the abortion looks (At about 1000 years AD Bishop reviews to see if it is made in the image of God)

[ChickMagic]

29. St. Augustine

decided that males received their soul 6 weeks after birth, for females it was 9 weeks.

[papau]

31. :-)

:-)

[JDPriestly]

17. The quickening was traditionally recognized

as the beginning of life in Christianity and at English common law. I learned this in Family Law -- from a Catholic priest.

[slackmaster]

11. I rarely post just to say I don't give a flying fuck, but

I don't give a flying fuck.

[kittenpants]

19. well, thanks for your trouble. I really appreciate that. n/t

[IdaBriggs]

12. Historically speaking, the soul was believed to enter the body

during "quickening" (aka when the mother was able to feel movement). This was the standard for several thousand years, and was argued into existence because that put "God" in charge of inserting the soul, as opposed to "Man" if the soul was carried on Sperm. This view changed when God spake unto the pope in the 1860's, and decreed that life (i.e., "the soul") was actually inserted at conception. The battle between "the Pope knows what he's talking about (and all the other Popes were wrong)" and the rest of the planet has been going on ever since.

NOTE: This is not to endorse one view or the other; its just some historical perspective on the battle. Interpretations of scripture are constantly changing/evolving, and this is one pretty important example.

[kentuck]

13. I believe in Genesis...

when the Spirit moved across the waters.... ?

[sandnsea]

14. Christ the Savior is Born

Born. Sums it up for me.

[patcox2]

27. You are ignoring the "miraculous conception."

"Conception." Kinda eats your argument for lunch, doesn't it?

Not to be confused with the "immaculate conception." That refers to the conception of Mary, the miraculous conception refers to the conception of jesus.

I don't think personhood begins at conception, I am pro-choice and aI agree with you, its just that your argument is fatally weak.

[sandnsea]

30. nope

The wise men, the shepherd, the star, it all happened at the birth, not the conception.

[patcox2]

32. Yeah, but the conception is noted and celebrated as well.

just because in our culture the nativity is a bigger holiday says nothing as to the relative importance of the two, or the significance of each, from an exegetical standpoint. The Annunciation is an extremely significant holiday.

[sandnsea]

33. "He shall be..."

That's what Gabriel said. Not he IS. The Annunciation really isn't significant to most people and it isn't the significant event in the New Testament. The birth is. (And the death.) If we really honored every blastocyst as life, we'd have a ceremony centered around the menses in the event "life" passes without our knowledge. The Church loves a ceremony. We don't have one, do we? It's bogus nonsense cooked up because allowing each woman to decide for herself is too much power for the little people to have.

[ComerPerro]

20. Even better yet, is there anything that mentions birth control?

Conservatives like to say crap like "There's nothing in the constitution about a right to (insert any liberal issue here)"


Well, I don't recall seeing anything in the Bible that forbids birth control.

[kittenpants]

21. well, that's part of what I wondered too.

I know some doctors/pharmacists no longer want to fill birth control prescriptions. Obviously science isn't driving this.

I'm not asking for these quotes as justification for these people, but more so I can be informed & argue effectively against them.

[SemperEadem]

25. they use the admonition made to Adam and Eve

Genesis 1:27-28

the go forth, be fruitful and multiply is being used by the rw fundamentalcases to be the basis behind denying a woman the right to birth control. They feel it goes against God's teaching.

[patcox2]

28. Yes, Onan refers to birth control, not masturbation.

For some reason, many think it refers to masturbation. Onan's brother died, it was his duty to go screw his sister-in-law, but when he "went in unto her," he pulled out and "spilled his seed on the ground." God got angry, according to the story.

But, he seems to have been angry at Onan for bucking his duty to impregate his sister-in-law, not so much at the crude early withdrawal method of birth control.