The more depressing news I read, the more I ask myself:

[Seabiscuit]

how can the wealthiest country on earth, a country with more material and human resources than any country in history, continue to be so crass, crude, ignorant and just plain dumb?

I mean, there are articles out today about families grieving in an Ohio town which is home to the 14 marines killed the other day and not one of the people interviewed had a clue as to why their sons were dead. They'd probably vote for Shrub again if they could, and get their sons killed all over again if they could.

I doubt if any of them even remember Vietnam, because obviously none of them learned a damned thing from Vietnam.

[iconoclastic cat]

1. I believe it's called decadence.

[Seabiscuit]

3. Certainly a contributing factor.

[SteppingRazor]

2. A larger question --

Throughout history, why has the wealthiest country with the most resources and power ALMOST ALWAYS been crass, crude, ignorant, and dumb?

[Seabiscuit]

5. Be that as it may, I'm just trying to focus on the U.S. for now.

The wealth, power, and material/human resources of present day 'Murika eclipses by far all previous powerful nations. The world's never seen anything like it. And the U.S. is home to some of the most mind-boggling stupidity in history.

[SteppingRazor]

10. But my point is that America is just following the precedent...

Cultures and societies who are the most successful great complacent. They are then replaced by hungrier groups, who then become complacent. That's just the way it's always worked. Why should America be any different?

[Seabiscuit]

17. So complacency is a good thing? It destroys powerful nations?

The current destruction in this country is a sickening thing to witness.

[SteppingRazor]

25. I never said either thing was good.

First, I don't think complacency is a good thing. Second, I don't think destroying powerful nations is necessarily a good thing. Depends on the nation in question.

I'm just pointing out that we're following the standard. Unlike empires of ancient history, we can change things through participation in the democratic process, but I won't hold my breath. I find that the tendency to remain uncaring after one is no longer threatened is a fairly powerful force. Ah, the power of laziness.

[CrispyQ]

23. Have you read "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight" by Thom Hartmann?

It's very good & addresses what I think you're getting at.

There are two mindsets -- the competitive mindset & the cooperative mindset.

Philosophy of competitive societies is 'you are with us or against us.' These societies generally do not live sustainsably, & at some point, they must invade their neighbors for their resources to feed their own growing population. They frequently use religion to convert the new members into the fold or to justify executing those who won't convert. They generally are led by men, & women (or any man who doesn't fit their narrow view of masculinity) are treated dismissively. Material wealth is valued more than people.

The cooperative societies believe that 'we're all in this together.' They live sustainably within their boundaries, knowing that all that we do affects everything & everyone around us. They recognize that they need their neighbors for trading, exchanging knowledge & to diversify their gene pool. Women are valued as equal members. Family & community are valued more than material wealth.

It's a very good book, although Thom does have more optomistic hope about the future of the human speicies than I do! Perhaps your library has it.

:hi:

[SteppingRazor]

26. Interesting concept, but...

Can you name any major "cooperative societies"? ever? In the history of the world?

And note I said "major" -- Don't count examples, like, say, The Koolarango peoples of the Pushbata Rainforest, or whatever. :)

[CrispyQ]

27. Perhaps the finest qualities of human beings

only triumph when the community & the individuals that comprise it are equally valued & when resources are equally shared. Perhaps it's not possible to have a "major" cooperative society, as that implies growth which needs greater resources & then seems to compell unprecedented ego & greed in some people.

Again, maybe it's possible but we haven't evolved yet socially to make it happen.

[Seabiscuit]

28. Yes, you're all getting at what I was talking about...

The current administration is so competitive as to be anti-cooperative... bashing the U.N. (made up of representatives of the rest of the planet), bullying and trying to intimidate anyone who challenges their agenda, which is to pillage the rest of the world's resources (starting with Iraqi oil) through endless war.

This is only possible because so many people in this country are still so socially backwards compared to not just Europeans but just about everyone else on the planet that we alone find a huge percentage of our population swearing allegiance to fundie KKKristian belief systems, which lulls their followers into unquestioning acceptance of whatever their leaders tell them.

So why is it that such a staggeringly high percentage of Americans, given its resources, seem utterly incapable of thinking for themselves and making up their own minds? Is it our educational system? Our mass culture? Our greed and complacency? A fatal combination of these and other factors?

When ruminating about this sort of thing I find myself tempted to just throw up my hands in despair and say: "I'm Swiss!"

[whistle]

4. Perhaps having the greatest material and human resources ....

....of any nation is history has no meaning if these aren't shared for the benefit of all of mankind and just results in wanton waste.

[carnie_sf]

6. Look at Rome at the end

[greekspeak]

7. My question

"how can the wealthiest country on earth, a country with more material and human resources than any country in history," still allow millions of its citizens to starve, go without health care, praise the stars for minimum wage jobs, be homeless, etc?

[Seabiscuit]

11. Good one. And...

"how can the wealthiest country on earth, a country with more material and human resources than any country in history" continue to elect right-wing neocon fascistas who relentlessly screw the people who continue electing them?

[CrispyQ]

8. We have focused on material wealth,

not what really enriches our lives, which is our contact with other people, our communities. So you have a populace that treats their things better than their people.

[skids]

14. Hell, we can't even get the material wealth part right.

The majority seem to burn though cash buying toys, vacations, and worthless consumables, rather than investing in stuff that saves them money down the road.

[progressoid]

9. The end is near.

I seriously think we are seeing the end of our number one status. China or the EU will soon eclipse us. The only thing we have left are big bombs.

[smirkymonkey]

20. Yep. America is like an out of control crack addict on his last

fatal blowout.

[CrispyQ]

22. Thanks for the great laugh!

I needed that!


:rofl:

:rofl:

:rofl:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

12. Unfortunately, being incredibly wealthy tends to lead to smugness

I had a student once who was the daughter of a well-known actor. She had flunked out of several colleges and was now at this okay-but-nothing-special college, in the process of flunking out again.

She wasn't retarded and didn't have a learning disability. She just didn't do the work. Her attitude was, "I'm financially set for life no matter what I do. Why bother? I just want to have fun. I wish my parents would give up this idea that I have to go to college and let me just go skiing and stuff."

After that experience (yes, she flunked out again), I've wondered if rich people shouldn't set up their trust funds so that their offspring don't see a penny of the family money after college and before the age of 40, so that they can't survive the intervening 18 years without doing something constructive.

The elites of America have the attitude that my student had. They feel that America has treated them well, and that there's no need to change anything. The knowledge that America has the world's biggest military by far has added a certain bullying edge to their arrogance.

The lower classes identify with this attitude, even if they don't benefit from the system. They're like sports fans who identify personally with a local team, even if the team is made up entirely of millionaires who aren't even from the area and who would leave in a minute if a better offer came along.

[Seabiscuit]

13. I know what you mean, but not all people with money behave that way.

I for one, worked my ass off for decades and happened to profit handsomely from it. It didn't change me or my values one bit. And I'll certainly never spoil my children, or lead them to believe that they'll be taken care of for the rest of their lives. There are a lot of people like me. But there are doubtless a lot more wealthy assholes in America, that fit your description.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

18. I've known some wonderful rich people, too, but

one of the dangers of wealth is complacency and arrogance.

Being a graduate student and TA at Yale, I met both kinds of rich people. When they were good, they were very, very good, and when they were bad, they were horrid!

[Seabiscuit]

19. Ahh.... yes....

:evilgrin:

[Junkdrawer]

15. Propaganda Works..And its key lie is: "Your neighbors support The Leader"

Now, there comes a time when the Big Lie starts to fray - and this admin's answer to that problem seems to be "more terror". So, since the polls are down... :scared:

[sintax]

16. How can the wealthiest country be so deeply in debt?

How can a country that has 28 billion barrels of oil left and using 7 billion per year maintain its oil soaked lifestyle.

America is a culture of conquest right from the start.

Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. Sociopaths live for the moment. It's all about "ME!"

Most Americans would rather go shopping, watch sports, find out about which celebrity is screwing which celibrity, or how to lose those 20 extra pounds, than pay the slightest attention to what's going on in the world.

[Generator]

24. I've wondered the same thing

Hearing Gore Vidal talk about the US having one of the worst education systems for the wealth we have is certainly a major factor. Without an understanding of history, you have nothing.

9/11= The Maine, The burning of the Reichstag. How many would even begin to know about them? If you ever saw those Leno bits (I watched years ago) asking basic information about the country or history..you get a clue how ignorant the masses really are.

Propaganda is certainly a factor. The FACT that most people get their news from a few seconds on Teevee is truly scary. Do they read the paper? Daily? It's not done anymore..tv changed that..and now hopefully the internet will change that..though the internet is used mostly for entertainment and "hooking up". (for the under 30 set anyway) And really the internet has only become mainstream in the very last few years. I remember it being strange that I was "on line" to work friends of mine back in 1999.

And of course, with the example you mention..it's tragic. There is a fine line into believing you are a brave warrior to understanding that you may be being used as cannon fodder for greed and ideology. I mean, these poor souls most likely signed up for the military because there were so few other options. That it's a JOB..and they need a JOB is hardly ever pointed out..I guess it's obvious..but seeing F/911 Michael Moore's movie last year made it clear, didn't it. If your only chance to advance in life is to give your life..well we aren't much different than many countries on the bottom rung if that is the only opportunity available. They HAVE to keep believing because to not believe would mean they died for nothing. For the wrong thing. It would require a whole new life view. Not many have the courage for that..though we do see some...Hackett..the brave mothers and fathers of the dead soldiers that are now speaking out.

But again..what have we learned from Vietnam? It took an attack on US soil to get us there again..but it's the same story..falsehoods..greed..ideology that cannot win because you can't WIN over people by telling them how to live. It doesn't work and neither country is our rightful enemy or attacked us, so there is some deepset thing that makes it doomed to fail. Injustice.

[lonestarnot]

29. There is one or two... visit todays front page.