A fate worthy of a tinfoil hatter ..... O YE OF LITTLE FAITH !

[Land Shark]

Re: Elections and tinfoil hats.

Since the data (ballots) and analysis (trade secret vote counting methods) are both kept secret in elections, at the point of election results (which are *conclusions* only) and without a meaningful recount, we can only by faith believe in election results.

they are not scientifically reproducible, and in no way verifiable. that is why I say we have "faith based elections". Especially since Buh and HAVA came along and computerized the country's elections, the ballots are often electronic and inherently invisible and unverifiable.

But what fate does someone earn who calls bullshit on this state of NO DATA AND NO METHODS DISCLOSURE?

They are HERETICS to this faith based system, denounced as tinfoil hatters.

Burned at the stake for being tinfoil hatters or whatever demonic name is attached to the heresy committed.

the tinfoil hatter will contribute a bit to their own ostracism because their intellectual curiosity gets them to speculate in an educated way about what's behind the walls of election secrecy set up, but nevertheless it's clear who is being burned at the stake and why they are being burned at the stake: lack of pure faith in elections.

Let's be clear. By today's standards, Founders who conceived of many CHECKS AND BALANCES would be denounced by some as paranoid conspiracists: how dare we imagine CONGRESS would do ANYTHING unconstitutional?? Marbury v. Madison is tinfoil! Yet what do computers introduced into our elections do by there mere purchase and use?: eliminate critical checks and balances of public observation, eliminate voter verification of ballots, and eliminate appeals to election boards in case of questionable voter intent, among other checks and balances. All this, without so much as an unconsitutional act of a legislature to eliminate the public's control over the instrument it created (government) to SERVE it and to promote the GENERAL WELFARE.

CONQUEST BY CONTRACT BABY! And the rapsheet of the companies doing it is impressive. But it wouldn't matter if George and Martha Washington wanted to count votes in secret: it's corrupt no matter who does it.

Now to be sure, even with results or conclusions only being available one can still through internal consistencies and conflict with exit polls find evidence suggestive or probative of fraud or irregularity, but it is MUCH MUCH harder that way, than with direct data.

Watch those who denounce tinfoil. They have faith.

[charlie]

1. I approve of this message

:thumbsup:

[helderheid]

2. bravo!

Prove it! :)

[Junkdrawer]

3. Scrutineers...

...

My model for smart voting is Canada . The Canadians are watching our election problems and laughing their butts off. They think we are crazy, and they are right.

Forget touch screens and electronic voting. In Canadian Federal elections, two barely-paid representatives of each party, known as "scrutineers," are present all day at the voting place. If there are more political parties, there are more scrutineers. To vote, you write an "X" with a pencil in a one centimeter circle beside the candidate's name, fold the ballot up and stuff it into a box. Later, the scrutineers AND ANY VOTER WHO WANTS TO WATCH all sit at a table for about half an hour and count every ballot, keeping a tally for each candidate. If the counts agree at the end of the process, the results are phoned-in and everyone goes home. If they don't, you do it again. Fairness is achieved by balanced self-interest, not by technology. The population of Canada is about the same as California , so the elections are of comparable scale. In the last Canadian Federal election the entire vote was counted in four hours. Why does it take us 30 days or more?

...

http://wesavedemocracy.org/follow_money.html

[SmokingJacket]

13. Every time I read about this, I go a little more out of my mind.

It's so simple. So perfect. So why why why do we have the most ridiculously complex, secretive, hackable system on Earth?

Well, obviously: someone benefits. Corporations who make the complex, secret, hackable machines benefit, and so does someone else: someone with a lot of power. Obviously, or we would have gotten rid of them years ago.

It sickens me that only maybe 12% of our electorate thinks this is a problem.

One day an amazing book will be written about these years. Damn, hope I live long enough to read it.

[Junkdrawer]

14. You and me both, sister...you and me both.

Indeed, and every time the idea is brought up, a raft of "progressive posters" magically appear to tell us how impossible and unworkable such a system is, despite its efficient use in Canada and other true democracies for over a hundred years.

Simply amazing.

[SmokingJacket]

15. Oh yeah, and I forgot expensive.

We're paying through the nose for this shitty hardware and mysterious software. Coming soon to my state.

:grr:

[electropop]

24. And you hear people claiming "hand counts cost too much"

Bullshit! They do it in half an hour in Canada, while we wait days, weeks, or until eternity for accurate counts. And the machines do what for us again?

Think about it: How long does it actually take to count a few hundred ballots? We already have enough poll workers for the job; just pay them for an extra half hour. And by gum, our party should monitor every location in person!

[mod mom]

4. Out of the water non believers-SHARK ATTACK! (oops thats into the H2O)

thanks Landshark-how did Thom Hartmann go today?

[Land Shark]

6. It went great with Thom, but never long enough with him, wonder

if his wife thinks the same.

[meganmonkey]

8. Ooooh!

:spank:

:P

[Land Shark]

9. ouch!

[eridani]

22. Thom is saving himself for his wife, silly!

:9

[understandinglife]

5. Recommended. Oh, and the consequences of invalid elections can ...

.... be considerable....here are a few examples...


http://www.newsparkproductions.org/



Peace.

www.missionnotaccomplished.us - How ever long it takes, the day must come when tens of millions of caring individuals peacefully but persistently defy the dictator, deny the corporatists their cash flow, and halt the evil being done in Iraq and in all the other places the Bu$h neoconster regime is destroying civilization and the environment in the name of "America."

[lvx35]

7. Lets gid rid of ALL the religious crap around election fraud.

The ones who believe in faith based elections, AND the ones who demand that to truly be for election reform, you need to believe in vast conspiracy!

[FogerRox]

10. I think DREs have Dwarfs inside-- writing with quill pens

they write what ever they feel like-- I dont trust the little vote dwarfs who knows if they really write what you tell them to--

I voted for Kerry in Nov 2004 and I think the Dwarf in my DRE laffed at me and wrote BUSH with his quilled pen. But I cant see the dwarf writing so I have to trust that the Dwarf writes what I tell him to--

[Land Shark]

11. Funny, but it is very much like telling one's vote to a stranger

and trusting that stranger to record it correctly (when you vote on a touch screen DRE voting device)

Since these DREs claim to be state certified and state-tested and this is claimed to be our saving protection, I suggest that we all have to vote by whispering our votes to lawyers, who will are also state certified and tested (bar exam) and even have a character and fitness examination prior to entering the bar. Surely we can trust lawyers to vote for us in secret, can't we?

[FogerRox]

18. those Sequoia Edge DREs are not HAVA compliant

they cant be used in a Federal election-- coming in ahhhhh hmm 2006
Better get them all replaced in WA----
>wink<

[Land Shark]

19. We are down to only a single county in WA using DREs........

[troubleinwinter]

12. Another recommend! Excellent.

[reprehensor]

16. You're not alone.

Related post in Activist Form

[Land Shark]

17. Thanks for the link

[bleever]

20. To an American, each person's right to vote is sacred.

The counting process...eh, not so much.

But c'mon, a person would have to be *crazy* to think anyone would have selfish interests within a holy place, a place as consecrated by God like the Warren Country, Ohio admin. building, or Holy Cyberspace, wherein the blessed Tabulation of the GEMS occurred.

[Melissa G]

21. Floaty Hearts for Landshark!

You are a Lawyer I trust!:loveya: But I want Proof about Anybody recording and Counting MY VOTE be it Lawyer, Dwarf with quill pen or devious republican controlled election management system! I am Not remotely wanting a faith based voting experience....More Floaty hearts for Landshark!:loveya:
:loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya:

[annabanana]

23. kickin' in the am... . . . . . . .n/t

[Melissa G]

25. kickin' in the pm! n/t