Sibel bigger than Plame, DSM

[wiggs]

"High profile americans linked to the 9/11 attacks...."

Plame is important. DSM is important. In both cases, though, everyone really suspects they know what happened, even though the specifics might not be known...The administration twisted intelligence and protected itself by lies and deceipt and smearing. We know that. We also know our military did things they shouldn't at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.

But if details of 9/11 come out that surprise 99% of the population (American involvement? Allied involvement? Drug money again?), this is something that moves the tectonic plates of politics and global power, reshaping our opinion of ourselves and our system of government.

This administration may be able to run out the clock on Plame, DSM, Abu Ghraib and even Sibel. But when and if Sibel's information, all of it, makes its way to the surface, pieces of the puzzle will fall into place and the big picture that we see may shock us back to life....Even if it happens after Bushco and House of Saud and House of Enron are no longer in the white house.

[BootinUp]

1. *raises hand*

What's DSM?

[TomClash]

2. downing street memos

[LeftNYC]

3. Can you link to a Sibel story so I can get some idea of what you speak of?

Thanks...

[Hissyspit]

4. Start here:

http://antiwar.com/deliso/?articleid=2917

[moodforaday]

10. Kicked and

seconded - this is the most comprehensive of the interviews.

[LeftNYC]

14. Not that it matters one iota...

Sibel is pretty cute...:bounce:

[Hissyspit]

23. So is LaLaRawRaw!

:7

[politick]

47. Well it does matter

as a nice, cute white lady is more friendly and believable to the American public -- when and if this breaks open -- that the fat, sweaty, comic book store owner conspiracy theorist of popular reference.

[Imagevision]

101. KIck

Sibel Edmunds hasn't even started yet, and the courts as of today will make Bush allow the news media to publis Ahbu gharaib prison photo's and video's.

[helderheid]

19. thanks I'll check it out!

[Imagevision]

82. The Sibel Edmunds matter is as relevant as Plame outing!

This story should not go away until Bush & Cheney are out of Washington.

[tocqueville]

5. here

http://antiwar.com/edmonds/?articleid=3151

[Hissyspit]

6. Also, here and here and here:

http://baltimorechronicle.com/050704SibelEdmonds.shtml

http://www.justacitizen.com/

http://www.BreakForNews.com/Sibel-Edmonds.htm

[LeftNYC]

7. Thanks!!! Looks like a got a lot of reading ahead...nt

[stellanoir]

8. Pick up the September issue of

Vanity Fair. There is supposedly a scorcher of an article about Sibel in it. Mine hasn't arrived yet but should very soon.

[Hissyspit]

11. memory hole:

http://www.thememoryhole.org/spy/edmonds_letters.htm

[wiggs]

35. Thanks to Sibel followers for jumping on requests for information....

...I was out of reach of my computer.

For those new to Sibel, this is an amazing mystery novel of a story that may end up coming true. I hope you get a sense of her courage in coming forward and fighting for us.

[AuntiBush]

97. She is Courages by Leaps & Bounds...

Have kept-up w/her brave story early on. What I'm trying to figure out is (if someone can point this out to me, it would be appreciated) is, can she become "un-gagged," meaning can or will she be able to "speak what she knows?"

Fitz's grand jury, maybe?

[wiggs]

99. yeah

That was an interesting question posed a couple of weeks ago, I believe.

Can Sibel talk if supoenaed by Plame Grand Jury?

I don't think it was resolved here on DU. Interesting to know if Sibel heard the names of Bolton, Niger, Feith, etc..

[AuntiBush]

100. Ass-Croft!

He gagged her. Is it me, or has anyone heard or seen of A##croft since the Grand Jury deliberation w/Fritz?

Just sayin'. Someome has to be spilling guts, maybe?

[moodforaday]

109. No, she cannot

As far as I understand. She was already subpoenaed in the 2004 suit of six hundred 9-11 families against the Saudi government. On the day she was to testify, Ashcroft talked to judge Reggie Walton and that was the end of the subpoena. (source: David Ray Griffin)

[johnfunk]

80. Vanity Fair article is now here:

http://911blogger.powermediahost.com/documents/vanityfair_clean.pdf

[Imagevision]

86. We need to kick Edmunds story around to gain more traction!

[evermind]

9. There didn't seem to be anything about 9/11 in the Vanity

Fair article coming from Sibel. Her allegations apparently concern criminal activity at a Turkish lobbying organisation, and implicate Dennis Hastert in bribery, but 9/11 does not seem to be involved in any of that.

Where does the purported link between her case and 9/11 stem from? It's not just Tom Flocco, is it???

(On edit: you can read a messy PDF version of the Sibel Vanity Fair article at http://www.911blogger.com/2005/08/sibel-edmonds-vanity-fair-issue-pdf.html

It's a fine article, but no 9/11 material from Sibel in it, and from reading it it's hard to see what bearing her material could have on 9/11 - she seems to be occupied in other areas.. )

[moodforaday]

12. No. Read the interview(s)

linked above. She does mention links to 9-11. She's under a gag order imposed by Ashcroft, so she can't legally give any details.

The Turkish bribes to Hastert is a separate matter altogether. My guess is this isn't covered by the gag order, so Sibel can speak openly about it and name names.

On edit: In relation to 9-11, Sibel Edmonds hints at two things. One is that the intercepts she saw and was translating indicate the administration's foreknowledge of 9-11 (though it should be noted that Sibel started working for FBI after 9-11, she would have had access to earlier intercepts too). Second, she hints at drug-running operations in which some high-level officials are implicated. How is this related to 9-11? Well, Dan Hopsicker for one shows that Atta was a drug courier, assisting in heroin trade between Afghanistan and the US.

Disclaimer: I find Hopsicker abrasive and I detest his "if you're not with me you're against me" stance, and I don't agree with some of his conclusions (Atta may have been a psychopath, but that doesn't mean he was the least bit sucidal, and it doesn't mean the other 18 were). But while his conclusions may be faulty, he has strong evidence regarding the drug trade and Atta's role in it.

[FreedomAngel82]

26. So that could be why

they pinned it on Afghainstan even though there is no vital proof as seen in the documentary "Loose Change." Why would they pin it on Afghainstan if fifteen of the nineteen hijackers were from Saudi Arabia?

[ohio_liberal]

30. It's simple

Unocal wants a natural gas pipeline through Afghanistan.

[KansDem]

41. Wouldn't the fact that poppy production exploded following the demise

...of the Taliban in Afghanistan also cause wonderment?

I seemed to recall that the ban on poppy cultivation was lifted and many farmers returned to growing poppies. Hmmm...something about an international drug trade involving high-profile people and an entire country being freed from a poppy-growing ban that makes me go...well, "hmmmmmmm..."

[moodforaday]

44. You got it

This is part of Michael Ruppert's reasoning as well. Someone in the US is making huge profits from heroin. Ninety-ish percent of the world's production of heroin comes from Afghanistan. The Taliban crack down on production, heroin supply drops drastically, money pit is gone. Solution: remove the Talibs.

It absolutely does fit in with what Sibel Edmonds and Dan Hopsicker are saying.

[ohio_liberal]

50. I think that's just a happy bonus of the whole thing

It's my belief that the 'Master Plan', stuff that you won't find on a PNAC website, means controlling the Mediterranean Sea and the surrounding areas containing oil or natural gas, and/or the routes needed to transport it to the Mediterranean. Any country that won't play, or won't play by their rules gets "regime change". I know it sounds tinfoil-hattish, but I've listened to people who have looked hard at the situation and came to this conclusion. One of them is a Republican, even.

[Booster]

56. If you look at this map you can see every country from Afghanistan

to the Mediterranean has been mentioned by this Administration as being needed to be attacked. They aren't even covert about this shit.

http://www.sitesatlas.com/Maps/Maps/MEast.htm

[moodforaday]

110. Wow. Just wow..

One thinks one knows the map, but you have to actually see it. Thanks.

[ohio_liberal]

115. The Caspian is important too, strategically

Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, all involved with crude oil/natural gas pipelines

[Blue Belle]

59. Controlling the Mediterrainian Sea....

It's astounding how history keeps repeating. Control of the Mediteranian has been the goal since the time of the Greeks (if not even further back than that). You'd think we'd learn by now.

[wiggs]

49. This is done, isn't it? nt

[ohio_liberal]

63. Are you asking if this is something that happens?

If so, then I would have to say the answer is absolutely yes.

Since 1994 Unocal and Bridas (which later merged with BP Amoco) were trying work a deal with the Taliban to run a pipeline through Afghanistan. The Taliban government was tough to deal with and finally Unocal withdrew (it was going to be just too expensive as it stood, and the region was very unstable). Now, we went after the Taliban because they were supposedly harboring Al Qaida and Osama bin Laden. So we took the government down, but strangely enough Osama bin Laden has never been captured or killed and Al Qaida seems to have survived. Then they hold elections and a man named Hamid Karzai wins. By all accounts he had little national support but he managed to win 21 of the 34 provinces, defeating 22 opponents. Many people say that Karzai once worked as a consultant for Unocal. Isn't that a strange coincidence? People working for Unocal and Karzai say it isn't true, although they "could not speak for all companies involved in the consortium". And now Unocal is back, wanting that damned pipeline. It all just defies belief.

[wiggs]

73. No...my poor recollection tells me that a significant pipeline

has recently been built already.

[ohio_liberal]

77. Possibly

There's a lot of pipeline-building going on between Iran, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, and probably some that I can't remember. But the Trans-Afghan pipeline isn't built yet.

[whatelseisnew]

116. From the Unocal website

http://www.unocal.com/investor/96ar/venture.htm

CENTRAL ASIA-PIPELINE PROJECTS. We have proposed new pipelines to transport oil and gas from Turkmenistan to ready markets in Pakistan and beyond. Unocal has already been joined by companies from Saudi Arabia, Turkmenistan, and Russia. Although these pipeline projects have support from Turkmenistan, Pakistan and all Afghan faction leaders, we cannot move forward until there are improvements in the Afghanistan political situation.

[cascadiance]

78. And now China wants to buy Unocal too!...

[Imagevision]

90. Kick!!!

[Gloria]

102. China withdrew from the Unocal deal....

eom

[fearnobush]

91. Not just that, its bribes from Fat Cat Saudis etc. saying:

"if you take this generous $$ offer and let my little group raise money for this charity on your terror watch list, I'll give you the Arab vote... 91% of arabs voted Bush in 2000.

Craig Unger - Hous of Bush House of Saud

<http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=6719&fcategory_desc=In%20Case%20You%20Forgot%20!>

[wiggs]

37. One could suspect

that our administration is worried about uncovering suspicious relationships with Pakistan, Turkey, and/or Saudi Arabia.

[nolabels]

42. Yea but don't ya just kinda wonder about this "Atta" guy?

Like all these spook places knew so much about him an had all these connections that were leading to and from him. Too much of it seems way fishy and convenient in any explanation.

The real conspiracy theory is the official explanation on what happened
on 9/11 and the continuance of lies. There has to be really something very deep there.

[wiggs]

53. There are so many connections it boggles the mind

and leads one to think there is a vast story behind all the stories.

A couple of the most amazing:

John O'Neill's FIRST DAY at World Trade Center after leaving counterterrorism post at WH with Clarke was: 9/11/01. He died.

Two of the hijackers were living with an FBI informant in San Diego????

The Pakastani guy who sold nuke secrets to Iran is golden with us now. How does he tie to Chalabi, who also sold secrets to Iran and is now in charge of oil in Iraq? And let's not forget that Bolton, who the administration is going to the mat for, was in charge of nuke anti-proliferation....then you can throw in Brewster Jennings, Wilson, Plame, Niger, Judith Miller.


WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?? AND DOES SIBEL HAVE "THE BIG PICTURE???" She certainly reads the news about all the other stuff...has she figured it all out?

[nolabels]

118. There might be more clues to be found but..........

There also might be many more hidden. I don't question the intention of Sibel or even or stories of what she might have uncovered. But I do think there is a trick in there somewhere.

I like to remember Sibel was working with a lot of raw uncorroborated and researched evidence which could be misleading (even on purpose)if it was MIHOP or worse, what better way than to mine the data fields with false reports of something thats going to be happening. Twist the info a little bit (to fit the plan and put it out there).

The government has yet to prove their story is any where near the truth. I am going to believe rouge operatives with the help of higher ups did it until proved otherwise



IF A PHOTOGRAPH SPEAKS A THOUSAND WORDS, WHAT DOES VIDEO SAY?

What “911 In Plane Site” accomplishes that no other video expose’ on September 11th has to date, is it exposes the viewer to a barrage of news clips from a majority of the mainstream news outlets. The official story of that day was told on live TV by reporters, policemen, firefighters, and other on-the-scene eyewitnesses, however, that footage was shown only once on live television broadcasts in the first hours of the attacks and then… it was never repeated. The stories changed, information was enigmatically omitted, and what can only be described as officially prescribed propaganda took the place of indisputable reality.
(snip)
http://www.911inplanesite.com/911synopsis.html

[evermind]

113. Now I've read them, you're right. And I think your quick

summary is about right, too.

One thing that caught my eye (and may be old news to Sibel watchers) is that she translated "war on terror"-related things in all three of her other languages: turkish, farsi and azerbaijani. She speaks of "big money" involvement in connection with administration officials.. I couldn't help notice that the Azerbaijan-US chamber of commerce has an impressive list of members:

* Wolfowitz
* Perle
* Cheney
* Armitage
* Brezezinski
* Kissinger
* Schlesinger
* Scowcroft
* Former Secretary of State James Baker

according to information from Professor Michel Chossudovsky, quoted in various places on the web (eg http://schema-root.org/region/asia/central_asia/azerbaijan/us-azerbaijan_chamber_of_commerce/ ).

I wonder if any of those names are in her list of indictable officials?

[LeftNYC]

13. I didnt realize Sibel and the Vanity Fair article person were one in the

same...

[DearAbby]

15. Each are important, because each one are connected.

IMHO. Fixing intelligence to wage a war based on lies.

[Karenina]

17. Simple accounting

SE+BCCI=:nuke:PNAC:nuke:

[FreedomAngel82]

27. Exactly

Everything is connected and for the same purposes.

[Peace Patriot]

52. I suspect that they did more than "fix intelligence" to wage war;

I suspect they were trying to PLANT "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq in spring 2003; got foiled by somebody; were already worried about the whistleblowing by Brits WMD expert David Kelly to the BBC (May-June 2003); Kelly was identified and interrogated by Brit intel, and Blair warned that Kelly knew something far worse ( July 7, 2003); the Bushites then outed Plame to keep her from finding out, or punish her for helping foil them (July 14, 2003-Novak); Kelly was found dead, under extremely suspicious circumstances (July 17, 2003); they searched his office and computers, found some Brewster Jennings connection, and outed the whole CIA WMD monitoring capability (July 22, 2003-Novak). It's just a guess--but it's a pretty interesting one. A lot of the pieces of the puzzle fall into place around it.

[wiggs]

54. Your scenario is as believable as any other....

...and what was that Italian journalist writing about at the time of her shooting? Can't remember, but it was something along the lines you mention.

[moodforaday]

57. Giuliana Sgrena

but I don't recall if she was writing about WMD. I know she wrote about the destruction of Fallujah, how napalm was being used there:

"Many are saying that there was military antipathy to Giuliana's stories which reported in the use of napalm and prohibited weapons by U.S. troops in Fallujah last November. At the time, no U.S. outlets even reported on this. Last week, Dr. ash-Shaykhli of Iraq's Health Ministry confirmed that U.S. troops used internationally banned weapons including mustard gas, nerve gas and other burning chemicals. Sounds like the kinds of prohibited weapons that Saddam was accused of having."

http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/21427/

[moodforaday]

61. "Former Intel Officer: The US Considered Her a Military Target"

More on Giuliana Sgrena:

Former Intel Officer: The US Considered Her a Military Target
By JERRY FRESIA
Former US Air Force Intelligence officer

"I also believe that a clear motivation for preventing Sgrena from telling her story is quite evident. Let us recall that the first target in the second attack upon the city of Fallujah was al-Fallujah General Hospital. Why? It was the reporting of enormous civilian casualties from this hospital that compelled the US to halt its attack. In other words, the control of information from Fallujah as to consequences of the US assault, particularly with regard to civilians, became a critical element in the military operation."
http://www.counterpunch.org/fresia03112005.html

[flyarm]

93. whistleblower says usa tried to plant wmd in iraq!!

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/03/06/Whistleblower.html

snip:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
June 20, 2003



A DOD whistleblower reportedly details an attempt by a covert U.S. team to plant weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. The team was said to have been later killed by friendly fire due to CIA incompetence.

Pentagon Whistleblower Reveals CIA/ DoD Fiascos

IN a world exclusive, Al Martin Raw.com has published a news story about a Department of Defense whistleblower who has revealed that a US covert operations team had planted "Weapons of Mass Destruction" (WMDs) in Iraq -- then "lost" them when the team was killed by so-called "friendly fire."

The Pentagon whistleblower, Nelda Rogers, is a 28-year veteran debriefer for the Defense Department. She has become so concerned for her safety that she decided to tell the story about this latest CIA-military fiasco in Iraq.

According to Al Martin Raw.com, "Ms.Rogers is number two in the chain of command within this DoD special intelligence office. This is a ten-person debriefing unit within the central debriefing office for the Department of Defense.

The information that is being leaked out is information "obtained while she was in Germany heading up the debriefing of returning service personnel, involved in intelligence work in Iraq for the Department of Defense and/or the Central Intelligence Agency.

"According to Ms. Rogers, there was a covert military operation that took place both preceding and during the hostilities in Iraq," reports Al Martin Raw.com, an online subscriber-based news/analysis service which provides "Political, Economic and Financial Intelligence."

Al Martin is a retired Lt. Commander (US Navy), the author of a memoir called The Conspirators: Secrets of an Iran Contra Insider, and he is considered one of America's foremost experts on corporate and government fraud.

Ms. Rogers reports that this particular covert operation team was manned by ex-military personnel and that "the unit was paid through the Department of Agriculture in order to hide it, which is also very commonplace."
According to Al Martin Raw.com, "the Ag Department has often been used as a paymaster on behalf of the CIA, DIA, and NSA and others."

According to the Al Martin Raw.com story, another aspect of Ms. Rogers' report concerns a covert operation which was to locate the assets of Saddam Hussein and his family, including cash, gold bullion, jewelry and assorted valuable antiquities.

The problem became evident when "the operation in Iraq involved 100 people, all of whom apparently are now dead, having succumbed to so-called 'friendly fire.' The scope of this operation included the penetration of the Central Bank of Iraq, other large commercial banks in Baghdad, the Iraqi National Museum and certain presidential palaces where monies and bullion were secreted."

"They identified about $2 billion of cash in US dollars, another $150 million in Euros, in physical banknotes, and about another $100 million in sundry foreign currencies ranging from Yen to British Pounds," reports Al Martin.

"These people died, mostly in the same place in Baghdad, supposedly from a stray cruise missile or a combination of missiles and bombs that went astray," Martin continues. "There were supposedly 76 who died there and the other 24 died through a variety of 'friendly fire,' 'mistaken identity,' and some of them -- their whereabouts are simply unknown."


back up articles to this story!

BACKUP..
http://www.motherjones.com/news/dailymojo/2003/08/we_53...
http://www.americanpolitics.com/20040420Baker.html



Real History and the Iraq War

[wiggs]

94. Really interesting

Ever debunked? Where is she now? Anything more recent than June 2003?

This deserves its own post....MSM and the public might be more receptive to this kind of information now.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

114. Right, I was convinced that WMD's would be "found" whether they were

there or not.

The non existence of WMD's is a "bad penny" for the administration that keeps turning up. I still believe a plan existed for ensuring their discovery, and just recently saw the theory about David Kelly's death and Plame's outing.

It makes so much sense. Kelly should be posthumously recognized and honored, if he was able to prevent the faux discovery of those weapons.

MKJ

[Hamlette]

16. she better have a blue dress or she'll be majorly discounted n/t

[jbnow]

45. From her letter to the 9/11 commission

in August 04 it looks like much of what she says is already documented or has other witnesses.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0802-06.htm

I'm sure these aren't the issues she has a gag order on but what is noted that was ignored is deeply disturbing.

[trekbiker]

18. Kick,..

[wli]

20. go figure, MIHOP

Do you really think less than 1% of merkins have figured out that the govt. orchestrated it?

[wiggs]

34. Yes. I think a larger percentage might think....

they didn't mind that it happened. Maybe a still larger percentage thinks they were asleep on the job.

MIHOP is not a fringe position here on DU, but I think it is a fringe opinion within the public at large. So I think it's fair to say 1%, 2%, 5%, whatever, might think MIHOP. Just my opinion based on conversations and reading though....

[wli]

36. my SO has run into a lot of ppl talking about MIHOP at her job

Unbidden, even. Not sure if there's a correlation between who goes in for massages and those who consider MIHOP the most probable explanation.

[iconoclastNYC]

69. I'd say it's in the majority among critical thinkers

I've met many people on the "far right" who totally believe in MIHOP.

[Just Me]

21. Well, the three combined with the war crimes could cause a crisis,...

,...of historical proportions that may lead to a major "cleansing" of the political system. Of course, that is my optimistic projection due to a firm belief the political corruption has spiralled completely out of control and it is killing this country and her people.

I hesitate to predict the reaction of people when they discover shocking facts relating to what officials at the highest level of government have done here and aboad.

[FreedomAngel82]

31. I agree

I think that's what Dean is doing and why we have to research canidates before we give them power.

[wli]

38. add Abu Ghraib, Church Committee redux, etc.

I don't really see it happening, but it's not entirely implausible we'd get so lucky.

[wiggs]

40. Shaking things up

Shaking things up, while maybe necessary, might be a bit scary for most of us. We are used to stability. Hard to imagine what would happen if it was generally known that those in power have played the rest of us without regard to life or other costs.

Back to the 60's?

[wli]

70. back quite a bit further than that AFAICT

[politick]

43. How

do people digest something like that? When I started to realize the scope of it all, it fundamentally shocked me. To the core. I think, really, that I underwent some temporary chemical change.

Now I shop at Wal-Mart and watch American Idol. But it was fun while it lasted.

(jk ;))

[moodforaday]

51. Hawthorne's "Young Goodman Brown"

This is precisely how I feel. For 10 years I taught US lit at a university here, this story was part of the curriculum. My students tended to appreciate its spookiness, but now I feel I'm living the story out.

[stubtoe]

85. Your scenario ...

has been on my mind all afternoon. A multiple whammy of this potential sort would indeed precipitate a crisis. It's probably wise to predict some sort of major "cleansing"; however, I would also anticipate that the political chaos following such a crisis could open the door for other unethical power-grabbers.

If these revelations do pan out, we will need to be on our toes as a nation.

[FreedomAngel82]

22. I think that also

Once Sibel Edmonds is allowed to testify in a real court hearing whatever she has to say will shock even us I'm sure and the people of New York. I remember last year, or earlier this year, seeing a poll that said 50% of the city believes Bush let the attacks happen on purpose. Just think of the reaction once the public learns the truth of 9/11. This is another reason we have to take back the majority in 2006 in the Congress and Senate. So we can hold real hearings and investigations on issues such as this, the Downing Street Minutes, voting rights and fraud. I think we have a good chance but it'll take us working together and being organized and on the attack.

[Talismom]

24. Getting this story out on the table would be amazing! I yearn for

the day!

[babsbunny]

29. God is truely hearing us

and answering our prayers!

[Talismom]

39. ROFL! I love the hobby that you list in your profile!!! n/t

[nolabels]

25. "whatever she has to say will shock even us" do you really think?

Mostly the motives, evidence, M.O.s and so much else is part of it, so how could we be surprised? It will never make it to court unless Bushco can hold out long enough to make it really stink. He already show signs of weakness and I would not bet he lasts that long.

The mass public is trained just like sheep and the few who know better are set up to be silenced

Sometimes it gets so ugly a person might wish they could stop looking. There are many vested interests in keeping it this way. You, yourself might unknowingly be part of the ones that want to keep it quiet


State Dept. Quashed 9/11 Links To Global Drug Trade
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=610235

[wiggs]

48. Not sure how i could be part of effort to keep it quiet...

...but I do agree that there are vested interests beyond comprehension here. Trillions of dollars. Control of empire. Corporatocracy built over the last 50 years. Ruling power in Saudi Arabia.

There is unbelievable pressure, I'm sure, to keep things screwed up the way they are. Concentration of wealth and power has tremendous momentum and they will not let it go easily. Laws, constitution, truth, human lives don't matter.

They will certainly not rely on democratic elections to fulfill their goals. That makes earthshattering, unspinnable, undeniable news like Sibel's even more important. Whistleblowers like Sibel, Wilson, and DSM are truly one of the few hopes we have of turning this around. I believe it is that bleak.

[nolabels]

76. It was just a general statement really

It's getting difficult to make a living without working in or on some part of the "Machine". The multinationals make way for one another now(did before, but now it's worse). Like how do you get of the grid that feeds them anyway? The multi-nationals benefit from most of us because the leverage they have gotten buying out our government from under us.

It is badly skewed to where this multinational beast gets more powerful while it bleeds the rest of us less connected off. It's even hard to figure how consciously others are committed to feeding the beast and or just unaware of what they are doing in that aspect. To me that's make me wonder how much is planed and how much is just like that flock of birds that fly around objects as a flock that follow each other.

Things look muddied to me (bad and good points) but hubris through the centuries has proved the whole to be stronger than the individual parts. I suspect they will trap themselves.

[stevietheman]

119. "Vote Democratic. Learn the truth about 9/11"

This could be a "whispered slogan" of the 2006 campaign.

[CantGetFooledAgain]

28. What is currently the "best guess"...

...as to what Sibel knows and hasn't been able to say publicly?

Is it more like an "open secret" or more like a real head-scratcher?

[nolabels]

32. I would guess it could be pretty big

Spend a while checking out how big money works.

She might have be holding back a lynch-pin in a puzzle, but you can bet a lot of other people have been putting two and two together. If and when it goes public a lot of other connections can be made

[meppie-meppie not]

46. I think you're going to find GOP campaign financing involved, illegal war

money for special war op's (CIA, NSA...) financed with drug money and that's probably just the tip of an insanely enormous iceberg....

[moodforaday]

55. She also says other people at FBI

want to blow the whistle, but are waiting to see how this plays out. This is why Sibel Edmonds' story needs exposure - the farther her story gets, the more other people will be willing to come out and corroborate it.

[Occulus]

121. They'll come forward, one way or another

Here's the administration's problem:

Sibel Edmonds is being talked about. She's already come forward about as far as she can without the gag order being violated, but enough is known now to know there's 'something' there. After all, the time is long past when someone with nefarious intent would have silenced her; she's already talking. Loudly. To anyone who will print what she has to say, be what that will with the gag order in place.

I bet Edmonds is in the * admin's nightly prayers. Now they need her alive, and for as long as they can, they need her stalled.

She can't be suicided, or accidented, or otherwise kick off without there being gallons of gas getting thrown on the fire; her cause itself cannot now be silenced: those whistleblowers will either voluntarily come forward with some legal assurance that they'll receive the same favorable treatment she does, or they will publish a full page ad in several major newspapers stating their case, or some of it, as they themselves (I believe I read this here somewhere today) have said they would do.

One way or another, the truth on this will come out. Plame, the DSM, Edmonds, and the neocons' plans... it almost has the feel of a desperate race with everything at stake.

What are they planning next?

[Mabus]

33. YES! Exactly

I was putting the links together the other night. I kept going back to old Sibel interviews that I could find and damn, she's been telling us this from the beginning.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=344&topic_id=7&mesg_id=15

So, hare are some big questions I want answered:

Who are the politicans that took the money?
How are they helping/hurting investigations into terrorism, money laundering and good old career damaging leaks?
What does the MSM know? When things are revealed will they pull out their DSM defense, i.e. "Everyone in the Beltway knew."
What will SOCTUS do?

Here's an old interview I found where Sibel puts it out there:

http://baltimorechronicle.com/050704SibelEdmonds.shtml (published on May 07, 2004)

....JH: Let me read you a short quote from Dr. Griffin's book, quoting from War and Globalization: The Truth Behind September 11 by Michel Chossudovsky and ask you to comment on it. "...The transfer of money to Atta <$325,000>, in conjunction with the presence of the ISI chief in Washington during the week, the missing link behind 9/11....The evidence confirms that al-Qaeda is supported by Pakistan's ISI (and it is amply documented that) the ISI owes its existence to the CIA."

SE: I cannot comment on that. But I can tell that once, and if, and when this issue gets to be, under real terms, investigated, you will be seeing certain people that we know from this country standing trial; and they will be prosecuted criminally.

<snip>

JH: Here's a question that you might be able to answer: What is al-Qaeda?

SE: This is a very interesting and complex question. When you think of al-Qaeda, you are not thinking of al-Qaeda in terms of one particular country, or one particular organization. You are looking at this massive movement that stretches to tens and tens of countries. And it involves a lot of sub-organizations and sub-sub-organizations and branches and it's extremely complicated. So to just narrow it down and say al-Qaeda and the Saudis, or to say it's what they had at the camp in Afghanistan, is extremely misleading. And we don't hear the extent of the penetration that this organization and the sub-organizations have throughout the world, throughout their networks and throughout their various activities. It's extremely sophisticated. And then you involve a significant amount of money into this equation. Then things start getting a lot of overlap-- money laundering, and drugs and terrorist activities and their support networks converging in several points. That's what I'm trying to convey without being too specific. And this money travels. And you start trying to go to the root of it and it's getting into somebody's political campaign, and somebody's lobbying. And people don't want to be traced back to this money. (Emphasis added by me.)

Her story needs to be told!

[cascadiance]

58. I too feel this story IS the story that needs to be pushed forward!

Sibel holds the keys to getting rid of a big chunk of the corruption that infests our government. I'm convinced by the fact that hardly anyone takes issue with her statements directly to say that she's "full of it" (unless they are ultimately challenged like Hastert has been now), and that the right wingers are more just trying to find ways to "keep her quiet", that this speaks loudly that they are afraid of what she knows and are afraid to touch her the wrong way so that they don't get slapped down when this information ultimately gets out.

It's really up to us to push this, as the MSM is being muzzled too now. I'm convinced of it. I just sent two notes to friends of mine that I worked with at Knight Ridder's web site a few years ago (when we had this thug elected to office) to see if they could also push this story up the ladder to get on Knight Ridder's media outlets...

If that doesn't work, we'll need to take it to the streets...

Go to http://www.cafepress.com/sibel to get gear to help you do this. All proceeds that don't go to cafepress.com are going to her legal fund.

It's up to us to get the supremes to hear her... Don't let it not happen!

[HootieMcBoob]

60. I couldn't agree more

we have to really agitate to get her story and her name out there.

[sintax]

62. This story is about

Heroin trafficking, money laundering and slush funds in the Rep. party.

will it ever see the light of day?

Iran-Contra figures/activities did not go away just hid for awhile and changed avenues of exchange and modes of operation.

[QuettaKid]

64. KICK. most.important.thread....ever. nt.

.

[wli]

71. not just not gone away, they're in charge now more than ever

[sintax]

92. An interesting character in all of this

is Richard Armitage. He was (is) a very powerful and well connected figure in the opium trade in Burma-Laos-Cambodia.

For more on this nexus of Golden Triangle-US Military-Offshore Banking Alfred McCoy's The Politics of Heroin (Updated Edition and his last) will give one a very good insight not only into the way this has been operating for years but its fluidity and relevance to todays geopolitical situation in that area and US involvement.

[rman]

123. Not only the Rebublican party;

elements of both parties are involved.
Maybe more so on the Republican side, but it's not limited to them.

[cascadiance]

65. The Right Wing Spin machine is now starting up on this...

From "The American Thinker" (yet another oxymoron name for something Rethuglican)...

http://www.americanthinker.com/comments.php?comments_id=2811

Ed Lasky gives us this drivel:

-----------------------------------

Get Denny

The Democrat-friendly media machine launched an attack on the Speaker of the House. It is the latest round of manufactured scandal charges, intended to brand the GOP as corrupt, and convince the inattentive that where there is so much smoke there must be fire.

Left-wing British journalist David Rose has an article in the upcoming issue of Vanity Fair which purports to show that House Speaker Dennis Hastert was involved in a bribery scandal. The gist of the faux scandal is that Hastert may have accepted tens of thousands of dollars in campaign contributions from the Turkish government in order to block a Congressional resolution laying blame on Turkey for the 1915-23 Armenian massacres.

In the article, Rose relies on "sources' who tell him of "secret recordings" in which Turkish diplomats referred to Hastert as "Denny-boy" and allegedly discussed making contributions of $500,000 to get Hastert to block the legislation. Rose seems to rely on Sibel Edmonds, an FBI translator, who was fired from the FBI, for engaging in inappropriate behavior. She is now suing the FBI over her firing. Her attorney works for the ACLU – not a friendly group towards Republicans.

Even Edmonds admits that these supposed boasts by the Turkish officials could be merely that: hollow boasts. Vanity Fair also admits that there is no evidence that any payment was ever made to Hastert or his campaign. The magazine must be afraid of being accused of libel to add that disclaimer. But why run the article at all? There is no evidence of any wrongdoing on the part of Hastert.

...

[wiggs]

74. Strawman alert

The hastert stuff is interesting, but not the most important aspect of the story. She would not be gagged because of Hastert...or because of FBI mismanagement.

She is gagged because she got a glimpse of a whole bunch of things related to 9/11, american oomplicity, drug money, and foreign involvement.

Her FBI buddies, Grassley, the 9/11 commission, Ashcroft, and a couple of judges are not merely protecting Hastert. They are trying to avoid overturning the political apple cart to the point where we have a new ballgame.

[rman]

108. gag because of "diplomatic relations and certain foreign relations"

"On October 18th 2002 Attorney General Ashcroft came out personally, in public, asserted this rare "state secret privilege" on everything that had to do with my case. And they cited "diplomatic relations" and certain "foreign relations" that would be "at stake" if I were to take this issue and make it public. And, since then, this has been acting as a gag on my case." - Sibel Edmonds


Former FBI Translator Sibel Edmonds Calls Current 9/11 Investigation Inadequate
by Jim Hogue
May 07, 2004.
http://baltimorechronicle.com/050704SibelEdmonds.shtml

[stevietheman]

120. What if she violated the gag order?

I know Sibel would be in great trouble... but I wonder if she could just decide to incur the legal wrath and let the public know what it needs to know. Could she just call a press conference and just tell us everything if she chose to? I mean... openly defying this gag order might just be seen as patriotic, and perhaps the ensuing earth-shattering politics would prevent her from being prosecuted.

[The Backlash Cometh]

66. kick

[Matariki]

67. Anyone know the status of the gag order she's under? n/t

[wiggs]

75. Gagged indefinitely

Gagged indefinitely by Ashcroft, upheld by two judges so far. Don't know the exact parameters of the gag order, so I can't say how much of a risk she's taking saying what she is. I think it's fair to say (as was posted by Paul Thompson here) that there is a lot more really secret stuff still to come.

[Matariki]

81. the whole gag order seems weird

do you know the reasons? is it to protect ongoing investigation or the guilty parties? it seems incredible.

[wiggs]

87. No

The reason Ashcroft gave was to protect diplomatic relationships.

[moodforaday]

111. Reasons

According to Sibel Edmonds: "Reason one: To protect certain diplomatic relations - ; Reason two: To protect certain U.S. foreign business relations"

[Independent_Liberal]

68. The Bush Neocon Regime is going down!

Sibel is our girl!

:)

[ohio_liberal]

72. Kick for the incredibly brave Ms. Edmonds

:kick:

[cascadiance]

79. Kick again and toast to the great Sibel Edmonds!

[Imagevision]

83. Sibel Edmunds like Joe Wilson, a threat to the administration

an extreme threat if it's ever investigated, this gal got the goods on 10 recognizable public figure names!!

No wonder Ashcroft silenced her asap!

[Imagevision]

84. High profile americans linked to the 9/11 attacks...

Plame is important. DSM is important. In both cases, though, everyone really suspects they know what happened, even though the specifics are not known. The administration twisted intelligence and protected itself by lies and deceipt and smearing. We know that. We also know our troops did things they shouldn't at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.

But if details of 9/11 come out that surprise 99% of the population (American involvement? Allied involvement?), this is something that moves the tectonic plates of politics and global power, reshaping our opinion of ourselves and our system of government.

Nothing has the potential of pulling the rug out from under our dysfunctional democracy quite like "high profile americans linked to the 9/11 attacks." this is so huge and shocking that it's frightening to think what might happen if true and exposed.

I have a feeling this information is going to come out in one of two ways, either 1) the Supreme Court hears the case and lifts the gag (SCOTUS the center of attention again), or 2) SCOTUS doesn't hear case or decides against Sibel, in which case Sibel and journalists find a way to get the information out there anyway.

[wiggs]

88. You pasted a portion of my post from another thread? nt

[Imagevision]

89. Yes wiggs, I agree,Sibel Edmunds story needs to be kicked around

to gain more traction.

[dmr]

95. There is one issue bigger than Sibel

and that's Indira Singh and Ptech.

Perhaps they both could be combined as both are so damn treasonous and poisonous it scares the shit out of me.

I'm not going to stop fighting the fight, but my belief system in our nation has been shattered. It is all an illusion. I don't think we will ever be free of those who have sold our country out.

[wiggs]

96. Imagine if everyone felt the same...

...that what we believe is an illusion...that our media, leaders, and government create an alternate reality in order to steal and grab power....that we've been had.

I think things would be quite different. There would be anger, protests, violence, change, new kinds of leaders, a return to the constitution, compassion, equality. Reminds me of a Judy Chicago poem:

And then all what has divided us will merge.
And then compassion will be wedded to power.
And then softness will come
to a world that is often harsh and unkind.
And then both women and men will be gentle.
And then both men and women will be strong.
And then no other person will be subject to another's will.
And then all will be rich and varied.
And then all will share equally in the earth's abundance.
And then all will care for the sick and the weak and the old.
And then all will nourish the young.
And then all will cherish life's creatures.
And then all will live in harmony with each other and the earth.
And then everywhere will be called Eden once again.

Amen.

[dmr]

104. You know, wiggs, I appreciate you posting

that Judy Chicago poem.

This past week I've spent hours upon hours upon hours researching and reading about Indira Singh, Ptech, Grover Norquist ... I ended up just sitting here sobbing for all of us, my son and his future kids. I thought I was beyond falling apart over politics. Boy, was I wrong.

That poem is the shot in the arm that I needed, and I thank you.

:hug:

[rman]

105. It's why Indira reads Sibel's letter before the 9-11 Citizens' Commission

"I have spoken with Sibel Edmonds because what I have uncovered in Ptech connects with some of the things that she has discovered. Sibel is not allowed to disclose content but she can ask me questions. I know some of the things that she mentioned there connect directly to what I discovered." - Indira Singh


Indira's testimony before the 9-11 Citizens' Commission:
http://911busters.com/911-Commission.html (video, audio)
- Indira Singh Sibel's Letter
- Indira Singh and Ruppert Questions and Answers
http://www.justicefor911.org/September-Hearings.doc (transcript)

[dmr]

106. I agree rman

that's why I wrote that they could be combined because they are so connected.

Thank you for the quote, and the links. I'm off to watch the video now.

Thanks again.

[moodforaday]

112. They've talked

Indira Singh and Sibel Edmonds have talked to each other. Indira read out Sibel's letter at the recent "The Citizens' Commission on 9-11" (http://911busters.com/911-Commission.html ). I don't know if they are coordinating efforts in any particular way, but I imagine they would.

[AuntiBush]

98. What Worries Me Is...

this: Even if "Bushco and House of Saud and House of Enron are no longer in the white house..."

Will we make it out of this mess "after" their long gone? Not to rain on anyone's parade here, but I'm deeply ISO hope for a brighter future here, amid such horrid, scandalous times.

[rman]

107. Yes, it is much bigger then "Bushco, House of Saud and House of Enron"

To get out of this mess there must be global awareness of the mess that we're in. But it is so far outside people's perception of how things work, that this awareness is still a long way off.

[rman]

103. DSM-, Plame-, Sibel- and Indira/Ptech stories are all connected

All corroberate one another, and point the most far-reaching and large scale corruption ever uncovered, and it is not limited to 9-11.
(actually, calling it "corruption" does not do it justice)

see the 'Sibel Edmonds and other Whistleblowers Group' for some sources on Indira/Ptech
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=344

[wiggs]

117. Look what Sibel did. End of thread summary

A mention of Sibel Edmonds led to splintered discussion of several topics, reflecting the deep connectedness of many issues. This points to Sibel's importance, IMO.

Posters chimed in on how Sibel might relate to: poppies in Afganistan, oil pipelines to Caspian Sea, China's oil company quest, Mohammed Atta, BCCI, PNAC, David Kelly, Brewster Jennings, Giuliana Sgrena, MIHOP, DSM, God, slush funds, Iran Contra, Richard Armitage, Wilson and Plame, Indira Singh and Ptech, Bolton, and the Azerbaijan-US chamber of commerce (stunning list of members there....).

Go Sibel!

[rman]

126. I know - and yet, your summary

makes my heart sink.

[Spock_is_Skeptical]

122. kick!

and nominated

[KittyWampus]

124. kick

[Generic Other]

125. It's all so overwhelming

Like how I feel when I keep my eyes open in a crowd where people are praying. It's an eerie feeling to be the only one who keeps her eyes open.

My heart goes out to Sibel. She's a good American.