It is NOT "Noble" to Die in Iraq. Period.

[IdaBriggs]

It is shameful. It is heartbreaking. It is TRAGIC.

That being said, IT IS NOT THE FAULT OF OUR SOLDIERS.

WE -- ALL OF US -- FAILED THEM.

Our soldiers take an oath to serve US. They put their own feelings and opinions aside, grit their teeth, and SERVE US. It is up to "WE THE PEOPLE" to make sure the people in our highest offices have

== Good Judgment

AND

== Integrity

because everything they do affects ALL OF US.

Including our soldiers. And our elderly. And our children. And US.

But in the most important decision -- whether or not to put our troops in harm's way -- the bombs and the bullets DIRECTLY affect our soldiers.

And WE FAILED THEM.

The Republicans put up a guy with a DOCUMENTED history of Drug & Alcohol Abuse (Bad Judgment), Failed Businesses (Bad Judgment), Corruption (No Integrity), and a history of Saying Whatever the Listener Wanted to Hear (No Integrity) While Doing Whatever People With Money Wanted (Bad Judgment).

The Democrats allowed him to be installed as President.

Its no surprise "bad things" are happening to ALL OF US as a result of this administration, but the point of this post is OUR SOLDIERS.

The Romans had a "problem" with Generals leading their troops in rebellion against the government, and then installing the Generals into positions of power; in order to avoid becoming a military dictatorship, we DEMAND that our troops follow WHOEVER we put in charge of them.

We're an opinionated country. Its a decent bet a good portion of the military isn't going to have that high of an opinion of WHOEVER is "in charge" but THEY STILL DO WHAT THEY ARE TOLD BECAUSE THAT IS THEIR DUTY.

In service to their country, in the belief that someone has to be willing to "look out for the greater good" by taking up arms and placing themselves in harms way, the Men and Women of our Military serve with Honor and Courage.

Yes, there are always people who do NOT emulate this ideal; logic dictates a percentage of every population -- civilian and military -- will be "not nice" people. The majority, however, are Brave, Decent, VALUABLE HUMAN BEINGS --

And their SACRIFICE in Iraq is DOUBLY TERRIBLE because of the UNGODLY BAD JUDGMENT THAT LANDED US IN THE MESS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

We failed them. And on behalf of my country, I say this to all of them:

I am sorry.

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[JimmyJazz]

1. We have disagreed in the past on a couple of subjects, but I

completely agree with everything here. Thank you. :)

on edit: spelling error.

[IdaBriggs]

11. Thank you. nt

[Tace]

2. "You Will Die Like A Dog For No Good Reason" -- Hemmingway

"They wrote in the old days that it is sweet and fitting to die for one's country. But in modern war, there is nothing sweet nor fitting in your dying. You will die like a dog for no good reason." --Ernest Hemmingway

[mattclearing]

3. No we didn't.

I don't know about you, but I was out there marching in winter of 2003 on the Mall.

Also, we have a volunteer military, and these people pledge to kill in the name of politicians regardless of whether they agree, or the politicians' constituents agree.

Their sacrifice is based on trust in elected officials to do the right thing. Does anyone really think that any amount of protest could have prevented the Iraq War?

Let's face it: Our leaders have betrayed us. They deserve neither respect nor loyalty.

[hobbit709]

7. When I served

I did NOT pledge to kill, I swore to defend the Constitution and the United States.

[mattclearing]

8. All over the world?

The Constitution sure needed defending in Iraq and all the other places that we intervene in.

Let's face it, our military is used in ways that are neither understood nor appreciated by the troops or the public, but it's rarely for defense. The bottom line is that people get killed and we get lied to. That's just a fact.

This country hasn't needed a real territorial defense since at least the Cuban Missile Crisis, and arguably since the Civil War.

If the United States needs defending, you can bet people will sign up in droves. Right now enlistment is down, because the leadership isn't trustworthy.

In the wrong hands, it's the Department of Offense, and that't the current situation.

And that oath implies that you will kill for your country, regardless of its motivations. I don't support the abandonment of freewill to some arbitrary authority, especially not to the point of murder.

That isn't noble. It certainly isn't Christian, or even positive.

Now that isn't a popular point of view, but at least it's morally defensible.

"I was just following orders," isn't.

[IdaBriggs]

13. I marched. I spoke up. I did everything I could think of --

and it wasn't enough because these folks were hell-bent on going to war with Iraq, AND ANYONE WHO PAID ATTENTION KNEW IT IN NOVEMBER, 2000.

If I, a simple woman from Michigan with NO POLITICAL "experience" could figure it out, WHAT THE HELL WAS GOING ON IN WASHINGTON WITH OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS, WHO SUPPOSEDLY SPEND THEIR LIVES DOING THIS STUFF FOR A LIVING?

I still don't have satisfactory answers. I'm pretty angry about the whole situation.....

[Ladyhawk]

21. I was caught flat-footed.

I wasn't aware of the political situation until I started questioning the lead-up to the Iraq War. I can apologize for not knowing. I did have a lot of other things to deal with, but I know everybody does. I do what I can, but obviously, it hasn't been enough.

[gratuitous]

4. And take it just one baby step further back

There is nothing redemptive about violence. You don't end violence by inflicting greater violence. You don't wage war to bring about peace. War destroys peace and the only way peace can be re-established is when the war stops. If the war continues through other means, other agencies, it doesn't stop just because no one's shooting or the bombs aren't dropping.

[IdaBriggs]

14. Well put. Thank you for saying it. nt

[Gormy Cuss]

5. I disagree.

The war is not noble.
The Chickenhawks who started it are not noble.
The Republicans who are pro-war as long as someone else is fighting it are not noble.
All the public commentators who supported this invasion knowing full well it had no personal cost to themselves or their families are not noble.
Any politician who supported Bush's invasion is not noble.

Bush and his administration are only noble in the sense that they are the landed gentry, expecting the little people to do all the unpleasant tasks in support of the nobility.

The soldiers and marines who are dying in this travesty are noble.
All our service personnel who display the courage of their convictions, who honor their country with voluntary service at great cost to their own families are noble. In fact, they're a textbook definition of noble. It is tragic that they have been betrayed by their own government.

[IdaBriggs]

15. I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with, since I think we are

saying the same thing in different ways. Yours is very eloquent, and I thank you for sharing it.

[Gormy Cuss]

24. I'd prefer to agree

It was your subject line. Your text certainly was more in line with my thinking on this subject. :-)

[niallmac]

6. I don't know. I don't think I failed them.

I did everything I could just short of having an apoplectic stroke or breaking the law. I didn't throw myself off a building but by damn I and my family protested on the streets in this red red town and argued with our neighbors, sent letters and emails and all that good citizen stuff. We have thugs in charge of our country who hope Cindy Sheehan and her supporters die of the heat. The world protested this war.
I failed nobody. I did my god damned best and now all I can say to the sheeple is I hope you are god damned happy. Things going great for you? I'm so glad. I do share this authors outrage and sorrow over the dead soldiers and the innocents we have murdered and ruined in Iraq. But I am not taking the rap for this.

[IdaBriggs]

17. What you say is fair. For those who tried everything, my charge is unjust.

For those who just shook their head and went about their business, I will stick by my premise: WE FAILED OUR SOLDIERS BY LETTING A MAN WITH PROVEN BAD JUDGMENT AND A HISTORY OF NO INTEGRITY BE INSTALLED AS PRESIDENT.

We are shamed before the world, and in the sight of each other.

:cry:

[Zorra]

9. No, I am not copping to too much blame for this.

I left the country right after the 2000 selection and have not been required to pay a dime in taxes to the US government since then. I was hoping back then that people would help shut the country down in protest over the theft of the election, but I guess a lot of people did not understand how real of a fascist threat to our country that Bu*h was at that time.

In retrospect, I do think good people would have shut the country down then if they knew then what they know now. But then again, it is still not too late to stage a massive nationwide week long general strike to stop the war tell the Bu*h fascist machine we're not going to take anymore from this illegitimate fascist administration.

I knew Bu*h would start a war without justification, and I was not about to finance the murder of innocent people or the end of my democracy for him. I tried to tell people that the neocons allowed 9/11 to happen partly in order to start a war, and I tried to tell people that Bu*h was lying about Iraq having WMD.

Bu*h and his band of lying corrupt murdering fascists get way less than zero from me.

That said, yeah, I did fail in my duty of protecting my country and people from a takeover by a malevolent fascist dictator and a band of psychopathic thugs, so I guess I have to cop a piece of the blame for not protecting our soldiers.

If Bu*h and the neocons ever get put on trial for their crimes, I'll gladly make a donation to the government to help pay for the trial.

[IdaBriggs]

18. I believe our "leaders" in Washington truly believed they were doing

"the right thing" by sticking to the rule of law. At some level, people who actually cared for our country -- and I put Al Gore in that category -- could NOT conceive of ANYONE committing such crimes against decency as have been perpetrated by this administration.

Overall, there is a strong feeling of absolute HELPLESSNESS when it comes to setting things right. When the leaders of a country are not held accountable by the people (and with the illusion of "voting", plausible deniability is established that THIS IS THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE), there is no reason for them to do "The Right Thing" and we have seen the disastrous results.

Rising up is not something I see the citizens of this country doing. There is no one to "rise up" against since (in theory) this is the government we "elected."

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Generic Other]

10. Sadly, the real heroes die for Iraqi freedom from US invasion

And I don't say this with any pride at all.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. Not noble. Not sacrifices. Just dead cannon fodder.

These dead didn't "sacrifice" themselves for a "noble" cause. They were killed by a roadside bomb.

They were fed into the meatgrinder by ambitious politicians who find flagwaving, jingoism, and gratuitous metaphors like "noble", "sacrifice", "patriotic", and "heroes", much more palatable to the electorate than "killed", "maimed", "shell shock", "mutilated", "agony", "fear", "dismembered", or any of the other non-PC words that truly describe war.

[w8liftinglady]

16. excellent post

As difficult as it is for me to see these pictures,it is crucial that we stress the real cost of war-both to our soldiers,their families,our country,as well as the Iraqis.Thank you.

[Guaranteed]

19. It *is* tragic.

It's nothing but a tragedy that they're there and they're dying.

[Just Me]

20. Order of responsibility: BUSHCO/NEOCON REGIME, REPUBLICANS,...

,...CORPORATIONS, MEDIA, DEMOCRATS, THE PEOPLE.

Get it?

I'll be damned if I'll swallow full responsibility for everything those at that top of that chain has imposed upon the rest of us!!!! :grr:

[mike_c]

22. kicked and nominated....

Excellent post.

[Ladyhawk]

23. I am not going to take the blame for this. Maybe I didn't do enough,

but I'm not going to carry an ill-defined, overwhelming sense of guilt. I don't need the extra baggage. Carrying guilt is counter-productive. Instead of feeling guilty, we have to garner enough strength to fight in the future.

I'm not physically well, so it limits my activities and my ability to investigate. I've been out of the loop for a little while, but that doesn't mean I don't care or that I won't continue to fight. It means that I have to take care of myself first or I won't be able to fight.

Laying a guilt trip on others isn't going to help them continue to fight, either. Forget the guilt. It doesn't help. We should help stengthen each other, not tear each other down.

I did what I could, considering. I'm sorry that we didn't defeat the evil Bush cabal, but I'm not sorry for anything else.

[karlrschneider]

26. In a way "we" did fail them but I wonder how many of "us" realized the

dedication of the PNAC neocons back in early 03. Yes, millions demonstrated all around the world...even the Pope who wasn't much of a darling to most of us who clearly saw the upshot of Bush's crusade, argued against the Iraq adventure. Could we have done more?...probably, but I think we either overestimated our own influence or underestimated the commitment of the warmongers and their hold on sheeple who couldn't believe their pResident would lie to them.

In hindsight, yes, we failed to do enough...the extant quagmire is prima facie evidence of that, but in a way we were all hoodwinked to one degree of the other.