In your mind, are the Iraqis who kill our soldiers "heroic?"

[Guaranteed]

There's a pretty intense discussion going on over in LBN:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1683196&mesg_id=1683196

Just thought we could use a tally on this one.

[izzie]

1. I am not into killing as good

--

[DoYouEverWonder]

2. Desperate

would be a more appropriate word.

[Catholic Sensation]

3. Heroism is what the Warsaw Underground did against their oppressors

Heroism is what Harriet Tubman and Frederick Douglas did against their oppressors, which is help those being oppressed and speak out against the oppression with unrivaled eloquency before or since.

The insurgents are mostly foreign fighters trying to kill Americans, they aren't defending shit, they're just looking to murder.

[Jara sang]

17. Could you provide me with numbers?

You stated: "The insurgents are mostly foreign fighters" wher are you getting this estimate?

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/194BA8A5-2DAF-461A-A101-5965D0156D17.htm

[Catholic Sensation]

24. apparently there are quite a bit trying to enter

http://www.mmorning.com/ArticleC.asp?Article=2700&CategoryID=6

This story says there are a ton of them trying to get in, and considering that syria admittedly can't patrol the border at night too well, it would be foolish to assume thousands aren't entering already.

And just so you can't claim this is some American news source trying to make the case for the government, the news source is from Lebanon.

[BillZBubb]

23. I'd like to see the source of your data!

How could it be mostly foreign fighters? That makes NO sense. To mount an insurgency you must have widespread active and passive support from the community. You need food, shelter, protection, and people willing to keep your status secret. None of this would be possible to mainly foreigners.

Don't buy the propaganda. This insurgency is homegrown and wide.

[orpupilofnature57]

4. No ,but I am aware of what they perceive as going on, Instant Karma....

for them, heaven no matter what the out come, a little harder ,when your a christian with A\C and 157 channels at home.Shrub has abused the word so much it's become ambiguous .

[Deja Q]

5. Dunno. If someone invaded the US illegally and you had to kill to defend

your own...

That's hypothetical.

My opinion, however, is that the insurgents are as much heroes and as worthy of being candidates for the nobel peace price as * is.

[teknomanzer]

6. War itself is an act of cowardice...

where can one find heroes among those that kill? What would be heroic in my opinion is finding a solution that involves no killing. There are no American killer heroes, and no insurgent killer heroes. The heroes are those caring for the suffering in all this madness... they get little press.

[Trajan]

12. Hear Hear .... Well Said ....

The heroism ISNT in the killin : it is in the NOT killin ....

[etherealtruth]

7. It's tragic ...

I am sure most of them NEVER wanted to be forced into a position like that.

[WilliamPitt]

8. No

[wtmusic]

9. .

:popcorn:

[Trajan]

10. Not at all ....

Killing, while sometimes necessary to PROTECT one's family, can not, even then, be considered 'good' .. or 'heroic' ....

The urge to defend the insurgents as 'heroic' isnt much different than having parades for triumphant armies ... the same motivation applies ....

I despise killing of ANY type ....

[ClintonTyree]

11. I see we have 2 visitng freepers........

now go away.

[Trajan]

16. No .... they are DUers ....

And they have a right to their opinion ...

BTW ? .. it is against forum rules to call out Freepers ....

[ClintonTyree]

20. Thanks for the rules information.......

:eyes: If it wasn't for people like you it would be complete anarchy around here.

[Trajan]

22. Just call me ...

Momma ...

LMFAO .....

[ClintonTyree]

29. I was thinking of another word......

but never mind, it's not worth it.

[Trajan]

33. Self Delete ...

It isnt ....

[Anarcho-Socialist]

13. No they're not

[Trajan]

18. Hey ? ... HOW did you do that ? ...

Amazing ... these magical boxes called computers ....

[Maat]

14. I agree .. peace is the answer.

War never is.

I voted that they are heroic, because most of them manage to survive such crazy circumstances without offing their superiors. Now, THAT'S heroic.

It is unconscionable that we set up young people to fail in that situation, to do things that they will regret the rest of their lives, and to die or become seriously injured without proper equipment.

The NeoCons will suffer for eternity in a Hell of their own making.

[katsy]

15. I voted no but agree with Galloway in one respect.

I agree that to resist US occupation is heroic. To kill innocent Iraqis is NOT heroic. IMO, that is criminal.

As for storming military barracks... I would have hoped that Americans would hold that slug in the oval office criminally responsible for every death caused because of his illegal war. I just can't applaud the death of soldiers.

Our troops should not be the world's policemen or the targets of insurgents (even though I can empathize with them for wanting the US out). I'd rather see the targets painted on the backs of this administration instead of our soldiers.

I'm so so sorry world!

[Jara sang]

19. Heroism, like freedom is a concept

that can not be qualified. It is an abstract concept like money and time.

[evermind]

25. It's a good deal less concrete than money and time.

You can have a pretty good idea how much money, and even how much time you have. I doubt that it's possible to quantify how much heroism you have in quite the same way... :-)

[Maestro]

21. No

While I hate the fact that we are there, using snipers and IEDs are not going to get us out of there. I would like an end to all violence. Bring these guys to the table and talk about resoultion to the problem that we have created there.

[BillZBubb]

26. The simple answer is NO.

I am sure that there are heroic acts on both sides in the fighting. But, if the qualification for heroism is limited to just those who kill our troops, the answer is a resounding NO!

I could envision situations where an insurgent gave his life to protect his comrades and in doing so killed Americans. That act of self sacrifice would be heroic--not the killing though, but the sacrifice.

[Maru Kitteh]

27. Killing is BAD

even when it is absolutely necessary (WWII) it is STILL BAD, so no, DEFINITELY NOT "heroic".

[AuntPatsy]

28. Absolutely not and yet there are those who will argue that Americans

who kill innocent Iraq civilians are heroic...where does it end?

[niallmac]

30. The question is a bit unfair.

It requires one to step entirely over to the other side and view things from the point of view of the Iraqi nation which of course is being occupied by crusaders as far as they are concerned. The fight for them is pretty straight forward and they who fight do so with their lives. But we are being asked also to call those who kill our countrymen heros. They are heros in the context of what they are fighting for but even as liberal minded as I consider myself I feel evil saying so when our troops are stuck over there in this liars war of imperialism losing their lives.

[Guaranteed]

35. To understand what the Iraqis are doing does not require that we call

them heroes for it. We don't have to out-and-out support it.

[niallmac]

36. Exactly. And since you know how to spell heroes and I don't I defer.

My underlying bias is that I just hate this war.

[ramblin_dave]

31. Are our troops heroic for killing Iraquis?

I wonder how that question would poll?

[Caleb]

32. No

I 100% disagree with Mr. Galloway's comments.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

34. No, they're not heroic.

Killing American soldiers is not heroic. Deliberately killing innocent Iraqis is not heroic. Terrorism is not heroic. The Iraqis who're standing up for democracy in their country are heroic. The American and Allied soldiers spilling their blood to help them are heroic.

[MsConduct]

37. War, is war, is war. We'd be doing the same thing if some country

decided they wanted what we have, fight for what is ours. Kinda like the Native Americans did....well, like any country over the course of history who were invaded by foreigners.

[wuushew]

38. If the Vietnamese struggle was noble why not the Iraqi's?

Both involve defeating an unwanted American presence. The only difference I see are the methods and degree of approval or disapproval among the population.

Is an insurgency considered improper when other alternatives are not obviously available?

[Guaranteed]

40. Those attacking our troops are, objectively, justified.

HOWEVER, I refuse to support dead Americans coming home in bodybags. Mostly because it's not their fault that they're there in the first place.

So, while I recognize where the Iraqis are coming from in attacking our troops, I can't support it. And, thus, I won't call it heroic.

[wuushew]

41. Mostly true

Although quite a few suckers joined up voluntarily under Bush's watch, something that could not be said for the draftees of the Vietnam conflict.

[Guaranteed]

42. That makes no difference in my mind.

They joined up because they weren't smart enough to see through the lies.

In any case, most didn't join afterward. And it's difficult to separate our troops into two groups in that way and say that one group deserves to be killed and the other doesn't.

I still don't want to see those who joined up afterward coming home dead.

[Gyre]

39. It takes alot of guts (literally) to blow yourself up to kill your enemy.

It also takes a lot of guts to fight an enemy as monolithic and dangerous as the American military. Some of you may not like that FACT, but it is a fact. Lot's of guts ='s courage.

Perhaps some of you might want to call it cowardice (because Americans are the target) but I suspect that judgement would ring hollow with anybody capable of rubbing two thoughts together and drawing a reasonable inference.

Now civilians are a different matter, killing civilians IS cowardly, whether it's "them" or "us".

Gyre

[in_cog_ni_to]

43. No. n/t

[Retired AF Dem]

44. How many Iraqis are

actually doing the killing?

[Moderator]

45. Locking....

This is flamebait.