Ted Rall cartoon says 9000 US dead in Iraq?

[Ksec]

http://news.yahoo.com/edcartoons/tedrall

[LiberalVoice]

1. What documents is he talking about? nt

[riverwalker]

8. article here

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/jim-lampley/the-ultimate-deception_2838.html

[riverwalker]

11. and what Rall said about his numbers

Rall Cartoon: U.S. Deaths in Iraq Undercounted

By E&P Staff

Published: August 08, 2005 5:27 PM ET

NEW YORK Have 1,800-plus American soldiers died in Iraq, or is the number closer to 9,000?

Ted Rall's latest editorial cartoon, dated Aug. 4, uses the 9,000 figure. The drawing shows a soldier -- as he helps carry a badly wounded man to a helicopter -- saying: "You don't count as war dead unless you die IN Iraq. If you die in Germany, or even on the plane leaving Baghdad, you're not counted." In the cartoon's final panel, the soldier urges the wounded man to try to stay alive at least until the helicopter takes off.

Rall wrote today in his blog that some e-mailers were asking where he got the 9,000 figure. The Universal Press Syndicate cartoonist said one of his sources -- which he linked to in the blog entry -- was TBRnews.org. An article posted on that site said: "The DoD lists currently being very quietly circulated indicate almost 9,000 dead."

The "About Us" section of TBRnews.org said the site is run by "a very disillusioned moderate Republican."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
E&P Staff ([e-mail])

[Cha]

2. That's easy to

believe!

[vogonjiltz]

3. Don't believe everything you read in cartoons.

[VPStoltz]

6. Sometimes the cartoons are the ONLY thing you can believe.

[jobycom]

4. Common rumor, often debunked

Some claim that we don't count soldiers who die from their injuries once they leave Iraq, but those who have followed these numbers closely claim that's not true.

[long_green]

5. While I believe that there has been significant...

underreporting of casualties in both theaters in the war on terra I think that gap exists mostly in the category of wounded.

9000 dead in Iraq? I don't see how that could be hushed up. I know that we have had some NG units from S. LA that have been badly chewed up but five times the KIA?

that being said, of course this lead should followed. Anything to turn the heat up on this junta.

[MadHound]

28. You've know of some LA units chewed up,

I know of some Missouri units chewed up, we all know of Ohio units chewed up, but who puts this together. Casualties are spread out, who counts these guys as they get home?

I could see easily how the numbers are being fudged. It would take a count of all of the obits to get a true picture.

[Ksec]

7. I dont but

knowing Rall theres something to this

Does anyone know if thats true. If he gets shot in Iraq and then dies in the hospital in Germany does that not count as an Iraq casualty?

[beam me up scottie]

9. Untrue.

This has been debunked many times.

[TomInTib]

13. ever been in combat?

I have ('68-70) and just as many guys die in MEDEVAC as on the ground.

Most of these "debunks" are crap in my opinion.

Even with improved armor(?) and life-saving measures our guys are taking jellyfying organ concussion that takes hours to kill.

[beam me up scottie]

14. What the hell does being in combat have to do with counting?

I suppose we're supposed to take YOUR word for it, then?

[TomInTib]

20. just telling you what I have experienced

close proximity concussion causes all kinds of problems that aren't immediately recognised and cause all kinds of problems.

Like death.

[beam me up scottie]

21. I understand.

Forgive my snarkiness, but this is a touchy subject here.
If you would, check out the kos article I posted at the bottom of this thread.

Peace

[TomInTib]

23. Thanks

Do you remember when KIA in Laos and/or Cambodia did not count because they did not happen because We weren't There?

Peace twice

[beam me up scottie]

25. I do.

But that's not the case here.

[wli]

10. the govt. is lying, but IIRC no one who knows the real figures is talking

Or at least not getting the message out and escaping being discredited.

We have no idea what the real body count is.

[Ksec]

12. It may have something to do with

the way they count combat injuries or dont count them as combat injuries.

If a guy is on his way to a battle and wrecks the jeep hes in it isnt counted as a battle injury and that means money not being given to those that need them the most.

It may be playing on that..

[beam me up scottie]

15. It is a lie/rumour/falsehood/myth...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3986145

[Ksec]

16. Gotcha

But is this cartoon playing on the phony way they count combat injuries? Remember Rall has a smart way of making people think...

Like I said in my last post if you can be injured on the way to a battle and its not counted as a combat injury , that has consequences in the pay department. I saw an article about this a while back. Ill see if I can dig it up.

[beam me up scottie]

18. You don't need to look far.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4079096#4079438

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4124026#4124144

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4242064

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3961716

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3960889

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3907898

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3907804

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3906841

Lynn has worked endlessly to ensure the accuracy of the count.

You may not know her, but IMHO, not believing the ICCC is an insult to Lynn and countless others who have been monitoring these numbers to make sure the public knows the truth.

[FightingIrish]

17. It may have been debunked but

What makes the purported truthful number so hard to believe is that the number who have died at Landstuhl Regional Medical Center is less than 20 and the number at Walter Reed is less than 15. Given the more than 13,000 wounded admitted by the DoD, those are pretty phenomenal mortality rates for a facility that treats such severely injured cases. We are prevented from counting coffins so speculation like this is not unreasonable.

[beam me up scottie]

19. 9,000 dead and the Reality-Based Community

"9,000 dead and the Reality-Based Community
by kos
Sun Jun 19th, 2005 at 23:44:37 PDT

We like to say that we are members of the reality based community. But to say that, we have to legitimately live in the reality based community.

So to those who keep passing around that ridiculous "9,000 dead GIs" figure -- stop it!

I don't know how many times this bullshit rumor has to be shot down.

And the best debunking comes from dear dKos community member Pat K, co-founder of iCasualties.org:"

For two solid years now, Michael White and I have followed the deaths in Iraq literally on a daily basis. We haunt the CENTCOM, MNF-Iraq and DOD websites ... as well as all of the major news feeds. In fact, the two of us have grown adept at finding death notices in the news media prior to the military issuing them. For about the past year and a half, Michael and I have been joined in the research by Evan D., an historian in the Washington D.C. area, and by Lynn L., another researcher whose husband is in the 4th ID. So that makes 4 of us searching the news media and the military sites, each and every day mind you, for deaths.

And after all this time, we all four of us concur. Yes, there are a few unreported deaths, which I'll explain in a minute. But not thousands. We'd have found them if there were.

Here's something that might interest you. If you go to our homepage, you'll notice a place up top that says "Fatality Details". Click on that. That'll take you to our fully searchable database.

When you get there, scroll down to the bottom of that page to where the Filters are. I'm finding that many people simply don't realize these handy, dandy little tools are there. Go over to the right to where it says "Country of Death" ... and select, say, "Germany" from the drop down list. Then hit the "Apply Filter" button over to the left.

Voila ... a list of 23 guys will appear ... all of whom died in Germany from wounds or illnesses incurred in Iraq ... all of whom have formal releases from the DOD and who are on the DOD's death list.

Now go back to the filters and hit "Remove Filter" so that you can start fresh. Go back to the "Country of Death" and select "USA", then hit "Apply Filter". There's 31 troops who died in the USA and whom the DOD has owned up to.

So there's no truth to the rumor that if you die outside of Iraq, the DOD automatically ignores you. Yes, occasionally it does ... especially if the death happens months after the soldier gets back from Iraq (Lynn's husband knows of 5 men that this applies to). And I am told that occasionally Special Forces deaths may be hush-hush. But as a rule, no. It's just a wild rumor.

And it's the same with this 7,000 business. If our list were missing thousands of names, can you imagine the e-mails we would get from enraged grannies, aunts, best friends, etc. for daring to leave their loved one OFF !!!!!??? I shudder to think of it. I get called to task for every little goof-up I make as it is. I recently mistakenly entered a soldier's service branch as "U.S. Army National Guard" because that's what a news article said. Oh my ... the chaplain for the man's unit had an e-mail in to me within the HOUR complaining that it was U.S. ARMY RESERVES, dammit! And then there are the parents who write to say that the DOD published the wrong hometown, and would I please put the correct one in my database. We have thousands upon thousands of eyes out there watching that list. We aren't missing thousands of names.

The last thing to consider is this: the Bush administration isn't GOOD ENOUGH to hide that many deaths. They haven't managed to hide Halliburton's over-runs. They haven't managed to hide the troop equipment shortages. And they haven't managed to hide their own ineptness in the whole occupation. Somehow the truth has a way of seeping out between the cracks.

And me and Michael and Lynn and Evan watch those cracks like hawks.

"So please, just stop it. You do yourself and the anti-war effort no good by running with unsupported conspiracy theories that contradict the very hard reality-based work cataloging the effects of the war by our very own side."
::
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/6/20/24437/8204

[Ksec]

22. Like I said, maybe it was

used to bring light to how they categorise INJURIES.

Im pretty sure Rall is part of the reality based world.

[beam me up scottie]

24. I didn't say it, kos did.

I just reprinted it to show that this has been kicking around for a while and it's bunk.

[muriel_volestrangler]

26. But his source isn't part of the reality based world

From post #11 in this thread:

Rall wrote today in his blog that some e-mailers were asking where he got the 9,000 figure. The Universal Press Syndicate cartoonist said one of his sources -- which he linked to in the blog entry -- was TBRnews.org. An article posted on that site said: "The DoD lists currently being very quietly circulated indicate almost 9,000 dead."

TBRnews is an offshoot of The Barnes Review - a far right anti-semitic publication. They are not reliable. They make shit up.

[geek tragedy]

30. No, people in the reality-based world don't recycle Neo-Nazi hoaxes. eom

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

27. Rall should STFU...

...and stop spreading baseless rumors from wingnut sites.

[geek tragedy]

29. Ted Rall is a fucking idiot--as is anyone who still believes that 9000

figure.

Teddy got that figure from the Neo-Nazis at Tbrnews.org.

Figures.