Any Irish here offended by th Notre Dame mascot?

[tk2kewl]

Just askin' :shrug:

[lildreamer316]

1. Nope

(irish heritage--Killian)
Proud of the schoola and its history.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DistressedAmerican]

11. So Are You Implying Native Americans Are Oversensitive About The Issue?

What is your point? :shrug:

[DistressedAmerican]

33. Still Wondering...

Was this just a drive by or are you a little too embarassed to defend the comment?

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JimmyJazz]

16. I agree. Particularly those who have been historically oppressed.

Some people are just so thin skinned :sarcasm:

[Chovexani]

34. Yeah, whiny Indians need to shut up

I mean it's not like they suffered a systematic attempt at genocide or anything! Sheesh.

:eyes:

:sarcasm:

[mondo joe]

35. Nothing like a little attempted genocide and several centuries of

racial oppression to sensitive a group.

[jpgray]

43. You could be talking about either the Irish or the Native Americans

[mondo joe]

45. I guess I missed the Irish genocide and the herding into

reservations. Did they suffer? Sure. But I don't think it quite compares to the native Americans.

In case anyone failed to notice, Irish ancestry is considered a BENEFIT to a political candidate. I think that speaks volumes about the difference between the two groups in the United States.

[jpgray]

51. You need to bone up on English/Irish history

Look carefully at the reigns of Elizabeth I, James II, Charles I and Cromwell for example. Irish people who immigrated here in the nineteenth century were often treated like subhuman animals. Either a stereotypical mascot is wrong or it isn't--you can't put up pie charts or graphs to guage how much death and suffering is sufficient for nasty stereotyping to be wrong. That doesn't make any sense.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

54. Then the Irish should complain..and it still nowhere near matches

the genocide of American Indians

[jpgray]

55. I'm just saying they have every right to complain

Both Native Americans and Irish folks. It's not any of my business whether they choose to or not. What's wrong is the nasty stereotype--that Irish people have it easy in this country these days compared to Native Americans is perhaps why one group doesn't take so much offense. But I think it's silly to try and balance out suffering and declare a winner who can safely object to a derogatory mascot. The derogatory mascot is the problem. If it's part of a larger social stigmatization then there is admittedly more reason to be upset about it, but it remains wrong in either case.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

56. They do and they should take a page from A.I's and do it

[jpgray]

58. I don't necessarily agree

Some battles don't really need to be fought--Irish folks these days are socially secure enough not to be bothered by such a stereotype. It isn't really indicative of a pattern of social discrimination, so it probably doesn't seem as urgent and distressing. Sort of like the old classic "white people can't dance": yeah, in theory white people could assemble outside Sinbad's house toting Baryshnakov placards, but is it really necessary?

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

52. Obviously you don't too much about what happened to the

Irish during the Famine and as being herded into reservations, when Cromwell ruled Ireland, his favorite thing about the Irish Catholics at the time was saying "to Hell or Connacht". Also check out the Penal Laws that were enforced by the British in Ireland. Pretty nasty things, they were.

[H2O Man]

64. I believe we are

discussing this in terms of sports teams in the United States. The OP lacks insight. The poster is attempting to make a clever point, but fails in every sense.

[ohio_liberal]

3. No

I've never given it a second thought :shrug:

[MsUSA]

4. Nope.

100 percenter.

[tk2kewl]

8. 100 percenter?

I thought that was code for KKK?

[AngryAmish]

5. I hate Notre Dame and I am Irish

Not because of the mascot, just because they are a bunch of self-important jerks. Am I so petty as to feign offense just to stick it to ND? Yes, I am a small and petty man.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

6. No comparison. Notre Dame was founded by the Irish.

Not one of those colleges using American Indians as mascots was founded by American Indians.

[AngryAmish]

10. ND founded by the Jesuits who were French

There is a cathedral in Paris with a similar name.

[JimmyJazz]

12. Thank you.

:thumbsup:

[SonofMass]

15. You are wrong. They were Holy Cross brothers from France.

http://www.nd.edu/~ndmag/dome5f99.htm

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

26. Either way the name came about from the fact that there were Irish kids

on the team.

And you are all certainly welcome to petition Notre Dame to stop using the name if you wish.

That doesn't change the fact that none of the colleges using these names did so out of anything but mockery and stereotypes.

[AngryAmish]

17. More here from ND website

"The Fighting Irish

Exactly where and how Notre Dame's athletic nickname, "Fighting Irish," came to origination never has been perfectly explained.

One story suggests the moniker was born in 1899 with Notre Dame leading Northwestern 5-0 at halftime of a game in Evanston, Ill. The Wildcat fans supposedly began to chant, "Kill the Fighting Irish, kill the Fighting Irish," as the second half opened.

Another tale has the nickname originating at halftime of the Notre Dame-Michigan game in 1909. With his team trailing, one Notre Dame player yelled to his teammates - who happened to have names like Dolan, Kelly, Glynn, Duffy and Ryan - "What's the matter with you guys? You're all Irish and you're not fighting worth a lick."

Notre Dame came back to win the game and press, after overhearing the remark, reported the game as a victory for the "Fighting Irish."

The most generally accepted explanation is that the press coined the nickname as a characterization of Notre Dame athletic teams, their never-say-die fighting spirit and the Irish qualities of grit, determination and tenacity. The term likely began as an abusive expression tauntingly directed toward the athletes from the small, private, Catholic institution. Notre Dame alumnus Francis Wallace popularized it in his New York Daily News columns in the 1920s.

The Notre Dame Scholastic, in a 1929 edition, printed its own version of the story:

"The term 'Fighting Irish' has been applied to Notre Dame teams for years. It first attached itself years ago when the school, comparatively unknown, sent its athletic teams away to play in another city ...At that time the title 'Fighting Irish' held no glory or prestige ...

"The years passed swiftly and the school began to take a place in the sports world ...'Fighting Irish' took on a new meaning. The unknown of a few years past has boldly taken a place among the leaders. The unkind appellation became symbolic of the struggle for supremacy of the field. ...The team, while given in irony, has become our heritage. ...So truly does it represent us that we unwilling to part with it ..."

Notre Dame competed under the nickname "Catholics" during the 1800s and became more widely known as the "Ramblers" during the early 1920s in the days of the Four Horsemen.

University president Rev. Matthew Walsh, C.S.C., officially adopted "Fighting Irish" as the Notre Dame nickname in 1927."

[Captain Hilts]

7. AB-SO-LUTELY!!!!!!

I am consistently stunned that this mascot is so rarely mentioned as offensive.

The Seminoles logo and name, conversely, isn't, but is listed as being offensive. And a national survey of native americans showed that more than 80% DIDN'T find the Redskins or their logo racist. Yet both are seen as offensive.

I don't get it.

[MGKrebs]

21. I think I can explain it.

If some are offensive and some are not,where do you draw the line? You would have to set up some committee to decide, which is basically what has been done here. They are just drawing the line at a place that is relatively clear rather than trying to justify a distinction between "redskin" and "seminole".

If you would like to propose an enforceable description of what should be acceptable for a team name and mascot and what should not, it might be an interesting topic for discussion.

[SonofMass]

9. They might as well be called the Notre Dame micks. It's

degrading to every one of us. They should be ashamed and the NCAA shouldn't allow them in ANY post season activities or championships.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[JohnnyBoots]

13. It is the one ethnic mascot that will never change, it has been emraced

not shunned, there are worse things out there where do you think the term "Paddy Wagon" comes from? Epithets are everywhere. People need to get over the little stuff. Take life with a grain of salt. I'm of Irish decent and was raised to support the "Fightin' Irish", from birth simply because of the name. I find the real reason of Saint Patrick's day more offensive, all the "Snakes" he chased out where in actuality the indigenous religions of my ancestors being "re-educated" by Christian missionaries, that's what I find offensive. Glad we got Charlie, Go Irish!

[AngryAmish]

19. Don't you mean "Police Van"?

When Daley the II came to power here in Chicago the term was officially changed.

[JohnnyBoots]

20. really, good for him.

[AngryAmish]

23. Jeez, lighten up

I find it hard to say I'm an oppressed ethnicity in Chicago where Irish people basically run the town. Paddy Wagon just sounds a lot better than police van.

[JohnnyBoots]

27. Yeah, I was trying to be sensitive. I'm sure it earned its moniker, but

thought Chicago had a larger Polish population?

[AngryAmish]

28. Well, the irish have this reputation...

...a well earned reputation, especially in those days.. of drinking too much and getting in fights. Then the cops would have to call the "Paddy Wagon" (with mostly Irish cops) to throw all the brawlers in to take to the station.

The Poles came later after the name stuck.

[Gormy Cuss]

29. Nice explanation, but "paddy wagon" was the term used in parts

of America where no Irish cops were evident, just lots of "shoeless," "illiterate," "potato-eating" Harps. The Irish surname 'Branigan' was a slang term for a brawl. There were more than a few slurs about their fecundity too. "Irish twin" was embraced by the community but it is fundamentally a slur
My grandfather and great grandfather would have punished their descendants severely if we called the police van a paddy wagon. Neither one was a brawler nor a street drunk. They were hard working men who fought prejudice in the sorts of jobs that would have them and the neighborhoods where they lived. My grandmother told me one of her earliest memories was of ghosts with torches marching down her street. I later confirmed this in newspaper accounts of local KKK rallies. The Irish prejudice was extensive in some parts of the country.

In their generations slang for the Irish was a weapon used to suppress them. Me, I can't be hurt by it but I love to point out the ethnic insensitivity attached to these words. The slurs have lost the power to keep down the Irish in America. That's why "The Fighting Irish" isn't brought up in these sports mascot debates.

[Maple]

14. Yes

[Mutley]

18. Nope.

I kinda like it.

[theboss]

22. The whole thing is rather silly, isn't it?

Though only sports nickname that should probably be changed is Redskins. That's actually an epithet.

Seminoles, Illini, etc. don't strike me as offensive.

Wouldn't the state of Illinois have to change its name under that criteria?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

24. If you wanted an analogy, it would be an Asian College calling their team

"The funny looking oversized argumentative white guys"

until then, I just don't think white men should be the judge of what should and should not offend other races.

[doodadem]

30. Change the "Redskins" to the "Rednecks"

and see how many people are offended. How about the Georgia Crackers? The South Carolina Racists?
Offensive is in the eye of the offended.........

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

37. Exactly. I have to question the values of people who think sports should

trump race relations.

[Chovexani]

42. Thank you!

It's scary how close DU is to the freeps on this issue.

About the only difference is people here don't openly say "whiny minorities". They use more subtle terminology to defend privilege.

[Another Bill C.]

25. Absolutely!

The mascot is similar to the caricatures that were used to denigrate the Irish in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Unfortunately, a lot of American Irish like the old stereotypes and do their best to live up to them.

[devilgrrl]

31. Personally, it troubles me that no teams are named Guineas or Dagos...

as an Italian/American, I am deeply offended.

[Journeyman]

32. I'm offended by the NCAA decision. . .

I personally detest the NCAA decision because it's so wishy-washy. Either the team names are offensive and should be removed, or they're not and may remain. What's all this nonsense: You can use 'em during the season but not in post-season play. Basically, what they're saying is, "Ya got a crappy team, name it what you want, but if you have hopes of being good, better look for a different name."

If the issue is important enough to raise, it's important enough to resolve.

Finally, the NCAA decision itself can be seen as racist. They make the decision to stand up for Native Americans, but once again, society pisses on the Irish. What is it with that Notre Dame mascot? A possibly drunken leprechaun set for fisticuffs with all comers. And that portrays a positive image for the Irish? Excuse the pun on the previous offended group, but: "How?"

[tx_dem41]

36. Have any Irish groups petitioned ND or the NCAA about the use...

of the nickname? I haven't heard of any. Perhaps, that is the difference. Not racism.

[Journeyman]

48. I'm sure there are groups who have protested. . .

there are groups to protest almost every aspect of life, it seems. Do I object? Not at all. Is it racist? Eye of the beholder, I guess. Does it demean the Irish? Of course. Drunken, fightin' figments of a tormented imagination. . . that's what the logo symbolizes. Can't rationalize that as anything positive. . . even when the team wins.

But do I object? Good god, man, I'm Irish. . . far worse insults and negative portrayals are stamped indelibly in my blood.

I just wanted to illustrate how low-brow and irresolute the NCAA's decision is.

[Stirk]

38. Look- just because I'm not bothered by Notre Dame's mascot

doesn't mean Native Americans shouldn't be pissed at these other mascots. They can collect signatures and get it changed if they're pissed about it, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Now, having said that- I don't give half a shit about that particular cause myself, because other issues are just a hell of alot more important.

[Spider Jerusalem]

39. Not exactly thrilled by it.

I've wondered why they don't change their name to "The Notre Dame Bogtrotters", or "The Drunken Paddies", or "The Shillelagh Swingers", or something...it'd fit better with that ridiculous caricature.

[Jersey Devil]

40. I was offended by my high school mascot - "Mighty Mites"

Yes, we had a bug as a mascot!!

[tx_dem41]

41. I think I'm offended by the SE Okla. St SAVAGES...

and I don't have that much Native American heritage.

[Old and In the Way]

44. I'm conflicted

Shouldn't they be called the "Fighting Frenchmen" of Notre Dame?

:-)

BTW, my wife's great uncle was Julius Nieuwland, the chemistry teacher/priest in the 'Knute Rockne Story". He discovered the synthetic rubber compound neoprene, but apparently the school sold his patent to Dupont.

(sigh)

[XemaSab]

53. "Fighting Frogs"

You really wouldn't have to change the mascot much... it's green already.

[Spider Jerusalem]

57. Doesn't fit the stereotype, though.

Of the French, I mean. You'd have to drop the "Fighting" and change the name to something like "The Fornicating Frogs". And the mascot would have to be a pale little guy with waxed moustaches and a great beak of a nose, wearing a black-and-white striped jersey and a beret and smoking a Gauloise whilst performing indecent actions on a young maiden with a loaf of bread, or something.

(NB: the above is not in any way serious, and does not reflect my views of France or the French people.)

[XemaSab]

59. This is true...

maybe the Fleeing Frogs?

[Spider Jerusalem]

60. We see why Notre Dame are the "Irish" and not the "Frenchmen"...

:D

Maybe they should call themselves "The Jesuits" or "The Cardinals" instead. They could have an Inquisitor as their mascot. There's something to strike fear into opposing teams...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

46. All I wanna know is who do you have to screw to repeatedly make racially

insensitive posts and survive here?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

49. Nah. But, wouldn't the virgin Mary be more appropriate?

They could change the name to "The Frustrated Virgins". Even more vicious sounding "The Fighting Irish".

Or, "Mary's Marauders"?

"The Maidenhead Mothers"?
"The Hymen Horrors"?
"The Warriors Intactus"?
"The Chastity Chieftains"?

Enough. Too many great possibilities.

[Kerrytravelers]

50. A bit of a difference.

The Irish suffered in Ireland under British rule. When we came over here, we suffered a bit getting started as immigrants, along with the Italians. But, I think we're doing quite nicely now.

The Native Americans, on the other hand...

[Zinfandel]

61. The "Fighting Irish" is that meant to imply, the stereotype of the drunken

brawling Irish...Then I think it would be offensive!

[lateo]

62. Notre Dame is going to kick ass this year in football!!!!!!!!!

I can't wait for their season to start!!!!!!!!!!!!!one!!1111eleven111one!!!!

[napi21]

63. Hell NO! I've always been very proud to be Irish, and I LOVE

the "Fighting Irish"! I always looked at that as a triute to the Irish people! I don't understand why Native Americans don't look at these team names and mascots as tributes to them as well???

My husband's step mother was a Cherokee, and when he heard all about this complaining on TV the other night, he just shook his head and said "What the heck is wrong with people these days?"

[Technowitch]

65. Locking

This is a continuation of a debate from another thread -- and makes inappropriate presumptions about whether groups of people have a right to find charicatures of themselves objectionable.

-Technowitch
DU Moderator