A question for you...how many think that the phrase "under God" should be

[Democracy White]

taken out of the Pledge or how many of you think it should be kept in?

I was having this conversation with my mom yesterday and she thinks that it should stay in because we have been taking God out of evertything. Such as prayer in schools. She argues that since it has been taken out of the schools our society has gone downhill. She says that if the phrase "Under God" is taken out than our right to free speech will be next and out society will become more like heathens.
She says that our country was founded on a religious principle.
I told her that our founding fathers intended for the opposite, that we can have religious freedom but there is the seperation of church and state and that having kids say "under God" in the pledge is a violation of that since there may be one or two kids who don't believe in the Judeo-Christian God which is what this is intended for.

So I want the opinions of DUers. I want to see where you stand.

Dee

[MemphisTiger]

1. Tell her where it started

in the 50's washington put it on the money and in the pledge as propaganda against the "godless" soviets. The founding fathers didn't put it in because it doesn't belong. Nobody is saying that there is no place in our society for God, but it's the responsibility of the family to do that, not the government.

[Democracy White]

41. Yes I did tell her that it was put in the 1950's during

the Cold War. She knows that but still feels that we should have God in the pledge as it has something to do with spirituality making society stronger.

She says that since prayer was taken out of schools that kids today have no respect and crime rates have gone up. Basically: no God.. more immorality.

She is pretty open-minded and centrist (I can't say she is liberal since she does lean a bit more to the right, however more moderate.)

Dee

[MemphisTiger]

68. I would suggest to her that the responsibility lies

with the parents for the kids getting our of hand. Also, look at the abortion clinic bombers that did it in the name of God.

[arcane1]

92. prayer is still in schools....

ask her for one example of a child being forbidden to pray to their god in school


personally, I deplore "loyalty oaths" of ANY kind

[BlueEyedSon]

2. God was not originally in the pledge, it was added during the red scare

in 1954 (the pledge was written in 1892, by a minister, with no reference to god or religion!!!).

[JimmyJazz]

3. For religious reasons, I think the Pledge of Allegiance should be

abolished. :)

[intheflow]

4. Red Scare McCarthyism holdover--take it out!

Here's another recent thread that discussed the same thing:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4289148

[spuddonna]

80. I totally agree - take it out!

If a MINISTER didn't think it was necessary when he wrote the original, then I think that says a lot...

[jackster]

5. TAKEN OUT!

Americans who believe in no God have the same rights and privileges as those who do. The Pledge should be representative of ALL Americans and not based on any religious principle.

[FreedomAngel82]

11. And also I think

it's very hypocritical about "liberty and justice for all" being mentioned with God and they are denying rights to people. They denied rights to blacks and now to gays. So isn't that hypocritical?

[Democracy White]

65. It is hypocritical...

I started feeling uncomfortable with the Pledge in fifth grade. I stood up with the class but I didn't recite it.

I just felt that it was silly.

Dee

[Saphire]

13. Bingo....

[shoelace414]

6. God has not been removed from school

God can't be taught, but also, you can't prevent someone from doing whatever they want to do to their deity, as long as it doesn't adversely effect the other students.

[FreedomAngel82]

22. Exactly

At my school before school started I would get there at 7am est and there would be a group around the flag and would pray and that's fine because the school started at 7:30am est. My mom said how you can say a silent prayer at lunch or something like that. We would also have a silent moment and you could pray too and same thing before the football games and stuff. Someone also once made the suggestion to try (a dare to say) and it was to take your Bible in the school, in the hallway and read it. See if anybody says anything to you. I doubt anybody will.

[Democracy White]

62. My mo isn't against individual prayer...

a 5 minute "silence period" that will allow different people to pray but that it should be allowed in school. I don't think she knows that we can already do that, since when I got stressed in school I utilized prayer right in the classroom. She says you can pray in your head and no one will know it, but I got confused when she said that they should bring prayer back in the schools though it shouldn't be where the teacher led it. Huh? I get what she is saying but correct me if I am wrong, can we already do that?

Can there be Christian clubs in school?

Can a group of kids gather for prayer during a break time ?

I am not against religion or organization as long as they don't take the business of harassing others for it.

Dee

[FreedomAngel82]

79. Exactly

After schools the groups can meet on the campus too. Even at colleges they have Christian groups where you can meet. And I'm sure kids can say a prayer before lunch and before school and all that. They don't make any sense. One minute they want prayer back into school and the next minute they don't want it led? :eyes: They can already do that! I graduated in 2001 so I haven't been out very long.

[jackster]

91. Kids should be able to join religious "GROUPS AND CLUBS"

just as they join the LATIN CLUB or the ROTC or CHEERLEADING for that matter. But that would include the Wiccans that want a club, or the Muslims, or even the Atheists that want a club. This should not be the sole privilege of the Christian.

Yes, kids can gather for prayer in groups during non-class time as long as it is not mandatory and, again, the groups must be representative of the kids' desires and beliefs.

Religion could even be a part of the curriculum as long as, let's say, all major religions are represented and are treated equally AND are taught in a historical or cultural light not in a RELIGIOUS or SPIRITUAL light. In fact, this to me is important. We should be teaching our children about his or her global responsibility and in order to be a good global citizen, one must be educated and tolerant of other's beliefs.

I've always believed that we should be able to WORSHIP or NOT according to our beliefs free of any reasonable encumbrances and while NOT causing discomfort to others. And I USED to believe that most others felt this way.

Obviously not......

[FreedomAngel82]

7. Before 1954 those words weren't there....

So do they think we're better then another country who doesn't say "under God" in their pledges? Who do they pledge to? God and the country itself or a silly pledge?

[Goldmund]

8. This country was founded, among other things, as a refuge from religious..

...persecution.

"She argues that since it has been taken out of the schools our society has gone downhill."

Not to parrot John Stewart, but when we had prayers in schools we also had segregation, institutionalized racism, rabid anti-communism, etc -- not to mention older examples such as slavery etc.

Second, even her this proposition is true, it is analogous to the argument that the absence of pirates causes global warming: www.venganza.com.

In addition, arguments such as "it doesn't say which god" hold no water, because not only can one choose which religion to follow freely, one can also choose to be an atheist, agnostic, pantheist or whatever.

Not only should the phrase be taken out of the Pledge, but also from the money, court houses, etc.

[FreedomAngel82]

24. And also on the money

is masonic symbols. If you look in the top right hand cornor of your bills you can see this owl. This owl is Murdoch who is mentioned in the Bible who is a god.

[Goldmund]

32. You mean Moloch, right?

The deity they worship at the Bohemian Grove?

Although Murdoch is a deity in his own right too. :D

I can't see any owls -- I know about the pyramid and the eye. Can you give a bit more detail on how to find the owl?

[FreedomAngel82]

43. Ah Muloch

I thought it was Murdoch. :blush: It's in the right uphand corner. It's very tiny.

[Democracy White]

35. Which denomination of money?

That's interesting.

Dee

[FreedomAngel82]

47. I'm not sure

But I remember seeing a film about all that somewhere and they showed the little owl in the corner. There are also signs of masonic signs all over DC too.

[Goldmund]

49. Holy shit, you're right!

More here: http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/greatseal/

[FreedomAngel82]

53. For whatever reason

I get strange feelings with that owl and the whole Boehimean Grove thing. Funny thing is I don't get such strong weird feelings with S&B. I do get them but not as strong. :shrug:

[K-W]

63. Here is the lowdown on Bohemian Grove

http://www.counterpunch.org/bohemian.html

[Democracy White]

71. So all of our politicians are devil-worshippers? n/t

[Goldmund]

73. It's standard operating procedure of all powerful secret societies

This is how they compromise each other and get dirt on each other -- S&B hold joint masturbation sessions, some worship shady deities, etc. It ensures that the member will remain secretive about the organization.

[FreedomAngel82]

82. You should watch Kay Griggs' interview

It's interesting. According to her not every guy (and now woman) doesn't do things at S&B. Those who do get to the top and those who don't don't get to the top. I think it's interesting how Kerry and Bush were both tapped. Bush was tapped cause of his name and power and Kerry was tapped because of who he was and his skills as a future politician. When Kerry was in college he was very well known for being involved in politics (debates and clubs) and people knew him as JFK. Bush was younger then Kerry so he doesn't know any of Kerry's secrets. Bush only knows secrets of the guys in his group in his year. I don't know if Bush knows any of Kerry's mates in the club. :shrug:

[K-W]

77. Read post 63

Its all very secular and rediculous.

[FreedomAngel82]

81. I don't know if all of them are

:shrug: I don't know if they really believe it or just show up. I read that every president has to show up to these events whether they believe or not. Even Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton have been there. Carter came to the group through his military career. You should see Jones' film about it. It's interesting anyways.

[K-W]

83. The jones film has interesting footage, but the analysis is bullshit. nt

[K-W]

56. No, the owl is not a biblical god.

The owl is a symbol of Athena, goddess of wisdom.

It is hardly a secret that the founding fathers borrowed heavily from Athens and ancient greece.

[FreedomAngel82]

61. I got the two confused

I thought it was Murdoch but it's not. :blush:

[K-W]

72. Well, there may be an owl god in the bible, I dont know.

But regardless, the most likely explenation for owl imagery in washington is thier desire to reference greek democracy.

[FreedomAngel82]

85. There is a Murdoch mentioned in the Bible in the OT

That's why I got the two confused.

[Matariki]

99. that would be Lilith

her emblem is an Owl - AND she eats children. or so they say.

[OrlandoGator]

9. We want the original Pledge restored.

Putting "Under God" in was a political move, and to be honest it cheapens Americans' faith in God to equate it to our faith in our government.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

10. taken out, revert the pledge to its original form

it was never meant to be in there, that is why it wasn't put in in the first place.

[K-W]

12. There should be no pledge of allegience it is anti-democratic.

The only people taking pledge of allegiances should be elected officials, and they should pledge allegiance to thier constituency, not America.

But if we are to keep the pledge, we should remove the christian propaganda.

[Goldmund]

15. I agree

The entire idea of the pledge is anti-democratic: it's like a verbal goose march.

[judy]

14. It should be out of there pronto...

Tell your mom, with all respect due her, that when the Pledge was written, it did NOT have those words. They were put in in 1954 by the McCarthyites, to differentiate themselves from the Godless communists.

It doesn't belong there. One Nation, indivisible, cannot be "under" any God, as it excludes all the Atheists or Wiccans, or Zen Buddhists who might not call any entity "God".

Ask your mom in what way has our society gone downhill. I think it has in the sense that it has been dumbed down by the Creationists and their ilk, and that morality has been flushed down the toilet by the current White House. But I have a feeling she wouldn't agree with me :)

[FreedomAngel82]

28. And also tell her

how God is above space and time. None of that means anything to Him. What matters is what we do and our faith and helping people. Then if someone wants to convert to the religion they can if they believe. Ask her if there is a pledge God mentions in the Bible anywhere? According to mine there isn't any pledge in there he wants us to take to our country.

[GeorgeBushytail]

16. I am an American Atheist and I don't live under any deity-thingy

[Not_Giving_Up]

17. The decline in society did not start because we took prayer out of school

The decline happened when parents stopped being parents. I remember having friends who had those parents that wanted to be buddies. Great, but your kid has friends, what he or she needs right now is a parent.

I love the commercials where they tell people to ask where their kids are going and who is going to be there, etc. They put these out there and tell parents that sometimes they have to be the bad guy to keep their kid off of drugs.

I'm a parent, and I know that I have to be the bad guy sometimes. My kids expect it, whether they realize it or not. They know that they can talk to me about anything, and they do. However, they know that if they are leaving the house, I'll have all the details and verify it with the other kid's parents.

[GeorgeBushytail]

33. American apartheid flourished before mandatory group prayer was outlawed

So God was pretty useless in eradicating the greatest evil.

[FreedomAngel82]

34. I agree

People need to have personal responsibilities as well. I love those commericals too. Preachers need to preach more about that then about going to hell. My preacher has never preached about going to hell. He's mentioned it at the end of a lesson but that's all. He does lessons that can be applied to their lives.

[johnnie]

18. I say keep it in

Just don't make people say the pledge if they don't want to. Then when the fundies die and go to Heaven, St. Peter will tell them that they are going to hell for having other gods before him. Worship the flag all you want, just don't freak out when you get laughed out of heaven for breaking the second commandment. :eyes:

Seriously, I don't give a shit about the pledge of allegiance. It a bit freaky to me to be talking to a flag anyway.

And also :popcorn:

[FreedomAngel82]

39. Yes

That's what my mom said. Nobody makes you say the pledge or any of that patriotism stuff. My patriotism lies with the Constiution/Bill of Rights. Not some silly pledge or a flag made from China. The flag is a symbol of our country but it's not what makes you a patriot.

[K-W]

51. Ask her if she would feel the same way

if the pledge read "One nation, in a universe with no god."

The fact that it isnt a life or death issue isnt a reason not to do the right thing.

[Caution]

19. Show me evidence that society has "gone down hill"

From what I can see violent crime against women is down, racial crimes are down, tolerance for differences between people is more prevalent. Are there still problems? sure but most of those are caused by the bastards who advocate crap like prayer in school.

the pledge should be abolished altogether. Why the hell should my loyalty be questioned?

[MindPilot]

20. Ask her: Has our society improved or not since 1956?

Because that's when it was added. "In God We Trust" was put on the money two years earlier.

None of the founding documents contain any reference to God, let alone Christianity. The Declaration mentions "creator" but that's as much religion there is.

Most of the founding fathers were Deists, only a few were Christian, several were outspoken against religion in general and Christianity in particular.

That's the facts, Jack.

So yes, the pledge should be restored to it's original state before the McCarthyites mucked with it. Same with the money.

On Edit: I think we should be pledging allegiance to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, not the flag.

[Captain Hilts]

29. Crime levels mushroomed after it was placed in the Pledge...

and "In God We Trust" on the money.

Of course, it's probably not related, but let's not let facts get in the way.

[FreedomAngel82]

50. Exactly

The Constiution/Bill of Rights is where are freedoms are. Not a pledge. Not a flag. That's what I defend and pledge too. Even Arbaham Lincoln didn't like the Bible: The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."
-- Abraham Lincoln

[PassingFair]

21. Ask your mother...

why the US got through the Revolutionary War, and two World Wars WITHOUT "under god" being in a "pledge". Guess Vietnam was covered by god, though.

"She argues that since it has been taken out of the schools our society has gone downhill. She says that if the phrase "Under God" is taken out than our right to free speech will be next and out society will become more like heathens."

I'm a heathen, and I DO NOT like to stand for the pledge, because it forces me to be hypocritical, or a mumbler, or a radical. I cannot escape it's many invocations. In schools, at political meetings, even at local meetings. Ugh.

Let's make a mandatory prayer to Ganesha, and see how people like it.

[FreedomAngel82]

57. That's what I ask people

Would they like to say a pledge to a god from pagansim? Or Santanic?

[aintitfunny]

23. As to the pledge, I do not care

leave it in or take it out, it is a non-issue, but the right-wingers love to scream about it.

Our founding father's were primarily christian. But they founded the nation on freedom of religion, not on religious principle. This is the new christian right rallying cry and and it is not only a lie, but an un-american lie.

[punpirate]

25. Sounds as if you'd better check...

... the refrigerator. There's got to be some Kool-Aid in there.... :)

You're probably not going to change your mother's mind quickly, but you might start with prayer in school. Her argument is that the "society has gone downhill" because of that. You'll have to ask her why she thinks that is the case, when there are so many other societal factors which may be the reason--if the society has declined precipitously, which is also not necessarily true. One has to be able to define terms before there's any dialogue on the matter.

See if you can find the exact quote from Jefferson about the First Amendment, which is that it was intended to build a wall separating church and state. It's in one of his letters (oddly enough, to a Baptist preacher from Connecticut, who had written Jefferson complaining that the Congregationalists and Presbyterians in his area were attempting to use the power of local government to restrict his religious activities).

Remind her that the introduction of "under God" into the pledge is actually quite recent--it was done in 1954 after a long, concerted lobbying effort by the Knights of Columbus--as a means of distinguishing the United States from "godless" communism, and remind her that 1954 was the peak of the hysteria over communism which McCarthy used for political purposes.

Facts are your tools in any discussion. Find them and use them well. :)

[MissB]

31. Or at least check

Snopes. Seriously, the OP's mother sounds like she received and memorized that stupid email going around about taking God out of this and that and everything.

Sigh. Koolaid indeed.

[Captain Hilts]

26. Out. (nt)

[GeorgeBushytail]

27. Some Buddhists object to "Under God" too

During one of the court cases they filed a friendly support document(don't know the legal term) in which they said something like - We have found that focus on deities impedes spiritual growth.

[MindPilot]

48. Making school kids say the pledge has already been found

unconstitutional. I don't know the case right of the top my head, but I believe it was brought by a Mormon in 1942.

I think "amicus brief" is the term you're looking for.

[RebelOne]

30. As an atheist, I say it should come out. n/t

[Fovea]

36. PLURALIZED!

"In Gods we trust."

After all, it ain't just about the J-guy.

There's Vishnu, Allah, and Otis, god of elevators.

And of course, all them Goddesses too...

Hmmm. How about?

"In the divine we trust"

Yeah, that works for me.

[meganmonkey]

37. 'Heathens' - that's the kind of word that exemplifies why the word God

shouldn't be part of the pledge.

I am likely a 'heathen' by her definition, yet I live a life with high ethical standards - likely moreso than lots of people who call themselves 'Christian'. Does the very fact that I do not belong to a religion cross out the fact that I feed the hungry for a living, I am careful about what products I purchase and what companies I support (as far as environmental standards, sweatshops, etc), I donate significantly of my time and money (of which I have little given my job) to those less fortunate than me? And conversely, do the child molesters and other criminals who call themselves Christian get a free pass?

I guess what it comes down to is that the problems of this nation cannot be blamed on whether or not we see the Judeo-Christian God as part of our individual lives.

At best, trying to infuse our culture with more use of the word 'God' is a band-aid on a much deeper problem.

At worst, it will just serve to reinforce the divisions among our population and alienate people even further from each other.

[Cleita]

38. Take it out. I never had to say it in school before it was added

in violation of the Constitution. I believe God doesn't mind either. S/he prefers it that way. Patriotism has nothing to do with religious beliefs.

[FreedomAngel82]

70. Exactly

God is above it so why should He care? There's no mention in my Bible about pledging to a country.

[johnaries]

40. Removed! The statement that our country was founded on

religious principle is a lie that had been debunked many times. Here are just a few websites:
http://jeromekahn123.tripod.com/thinkersonreligion/id9.html
http://monotheism.us/
http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm
http://www.postfun.com/worbois.html
http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/dispatch/fathers_quote2.htm
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html
http://altreligion.about.com/library/weekly/aa070202a.htm

That was just from a quick search.

[Democracy White]

54. Hey thanks for the sites!!!

They are helpful, though I will have to bookmark this thread until I have more time to read them fully on the Internet.

Dee

[understandinglife]

42. OUT.

Matthew Donaldson, an independent visual artist from Auckland. “On this, the 60th anniversary of Hiroshima's bombing, my grief for all of those murdered and yet to be murdered by America's weapons - of mass destruction or otherwise - overwhelms me” said Matt.

It overwhelms me, as well, Mathew.

Peace.

www.missionnotaccomplished.us - How ever long it takes, the day must come when tens of millions of caring individuals peacefully but persistently defy the dictator, deny the corporatists their cash flow, and halt the evil being done in Iraq and in all the other places the Bu$h neoconster regime is destroying civilization and the environment in the name of "America."

[Sapphire Blue]

44. Does one have the right to pledge to "One nation under Allah"? Or "YHWH"?

Or any other name that one prefers to use?

[Lone_Star_Dem]

45. I had a very similar conversation with my father a few months back

He said that it shouldn't be removed because that was how it was written and it was wrong to change it now. You can imagine his surprise when I told him that it was added in the 50's (I couldn't recall the exact date at the time).


To answer your question, it should never have been added in the first place. It goes against the principals established by our founding fathers for it to be included now, and it should be removed.

[Norquist Nemesis]

46. Well, she's correct about one thing

That our country was founded on a religious principle...that being Freedom of Religion. That said, does she accept that others are free to worship (or not) as they see fit, INCLUDING Muslim, Buddhist, Wiccan, Hindu? How does she feel about non-Christian faiths practicing in the schools?

There was a time not so long ago that the question wasn't even on my radar. I was born in 1959 and learned the pledge with "under God" in it. I never thought about it, frankly.

But now that the "national discussion" has been elevated to the point that Televangelist congregations are shrieking these cockeyed charges of persecution, well, it's obvious that Dominionists have achieved another issue divide talking point.

It's a no win situation. Take it out and they'll all be screaming, see I TOLD YOU!! Leave it in, and they'll be using it as support for more intrusion.

So, the "national discussion" needs to focus on the issue. Is this a country where our Founding Fathers intended to allow all persons to worship in their everyday private lives without intruding on others?

[dr.strangelove]

52. Its not the "under god" part I object to

Its the pledge in general. I'd rather so away with the whole thing. Why do we make our children pledge allegance to anything. The whole idea is stupid.

[Sapphire Blue]

55. Pledge of Allegiance was written by Fancis Bellamy, a Christian SOCIALIST

The Pledge of Allegiance
A Short History
by Dr. John W. Baer


Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).

Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class could create a planned economy with political, social and economic equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy similar to our present military industrial complex.

The Pledge was published in the September 8th issue of The Youth's Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader's Digest of its day. Its owner and editor, Daniel Ford, had hired Francis in 1891 as his assistant when Francis was pressured into leaving his baptist church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. As a member of his congregation, Ford had enjoyed Francis's sermons. Ford later founded the liberal and often controversial Ford Hall Forum, located in downtown Boston.

<snip>

His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. < * 'to' added in October, 1892. >

Continued @ http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

[FreedomAngel82]

75. Thank it for that information

I saved it in case someone at my church gives those lines too.

[Sapphire Blue]

88. I wonder if RWers would try to ban the entire Pledge if they were aware...

... of the author's Socialist background.

My pledge...

A few liberals recite a slightly revised version of Bellamy's original Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all.'

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

[obxhead]

58. All references to "god" should be removed

from any part of our government.
I'm sick and tired of people trying to shove their "god" shit down my throat.

[MindPilot]

59. on that "no prayer in schools" thing...

I'm going to guess your mom thinks those godless heathen atheists were the ones who got forced praying expunged from the classroom.

Nope, that case was started by Catholics who didn't want their kids forced to say a Protestant prayer.

O'Hair kind of attached herself to it later because she was, quite frankly, a bit of a publicity hound.

[Democracy White]

100. My mother tells me it was one woman

by the name of Mary O'Hara who protested against the prayers in schools. She told me that O'Hara was an atheist and was killed as a result of her protestations.

Dee

[KittyWampus]

60. Changed To "Guided By Providence" Which Is What Founders Would've

accepted and how they viewed the world.

Either change it to 'guided by Providence' or remove 'under god'.

[ProfessorGAC]

64. Out

Our society has gone downhill has it? I wonder if people who say that can enumerate the symptoms of a society going downhill.

Fewer people in abject poverty? No, that's progress.

Fewer people dying of curable diseases? No, that's progress.

More college graduates per capita? Nope. Progress.

More opportunities for minorities and women? Nope, again.

Food in greater abundance? Nope.

Society is, in fact, still on the upswing in terms of the greater good. So, by her logic, taking prayer out of the schools has helped make this country greater. Not that i think there is any correlation, in either direction.

But, the facts don't support her basic premise.

Sorry, mom. You're just wrong.
The Professor

[terrya]

66. I think it should be taken out.

People can pledge allegiance to this country without acknowleding God. God does not solely favor the United States of America. That is, if you believe in God in the first place.

[DelawareValleyDem]

67. Out

Pledge did not originally have the phrase, and its inclusion violates the principle of church-state separation. Remove it on both legal and historical grounds.

[Democracy White]

69. My mom also tells me that this is why Muslims

are more powerful... because they are devoted to God in every aspect?

:wtf: If they were more powerful, they wouldn't have so many problems there and Iraq would have kicked our asses once we set foot in there. Plus they would be more industrialized and rich than what they are now.

Am I right?

Dee

[annabanana]

74. The President, the Congress and the Military all pledge

to defend the Constitution... not the flag. Pledging to a piece of cloth (that people fold into bandannas and wear as bathing suits and every other damn thing without being accused of "desecration") is just silly.

Oh, and to answer your question. "Under God" automatically excludes atheists and Buddhists (who don't anthropomorphize the eternal like others do) and it should have been taken out when McCarthy went down with the other red-baiters.

[GreenPartyVoter]

76. I feel no need to keep it.

[xray s]

78. I am a Christian and I think it should come out

I don't think our money should say "In God We Trust" either.

God doesn't bless countries nor is any country "under God". God has a relationship with individuals, not countries.

When you believe sweeping statements that proclaim God endorses a country, you let yourself fall to hubris and vanity which leads to a false belief that anything your country does is endorsed by God. War, killing civilians, ignoring the poor and sick, racism...

This is not being faithful, it is sacrilegious.

Americans want a bumper sticker God. They really don't have a clue just how far away they are from Him.

[FreedomAngel82]

86. You're right

You're so right. God told us to place what matters to us in Heaven and not on Earth including our treasures and money. We should be giving our money away and helping people and taking care of ourselves. Money doesn't matter to God.

[Sapphire Blue]

89. A bumper sticker for them...

https://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=resources.catalog&mode=display_detail&ResourceID=388

[KamaAina]

84. It should be taken BACK out

and restored to the way it was before the McCarthyites tampered with it to show the godless commie Russkies who was boss.

[Hippo_Tron]

87. I think that students need to be taught about their right to free speech

"Under God" being in the "official" pledge is something that I don't really care about. It's just a little cosmetic thing as far as I'm concerned. I'm much more concerned about how something like the pledge of allegiance is being taught in schools.

Children need to be taught that saying the pledge, or opting not to, falls under their right to free speech which is protected in the first amendment. They need to be taught that patriotism isn't really patriotism if it is mandatory. Children should have the right to say the pledge with the words "under god" or without them, they should have the right to not say the pledge, and they should have the right to mock the pledge. They should be taught these rights.

[sakabatou]

90. When my mom was in school

Ther was no undergod in the pledge. She leaves it out whenever she says it now.

[ulysses]

93. taken out.

"In God We Trust" off the money, too.

[CrazyForKucinich]

94. It should be taken out of the pledge and....

so should "liberty and justice for all" as that doesn't exist here in America either.

In God We Trust should also be removed from all currency...as an Agnostic I don't trust in this supposed god.

This country has been hijacked by Christians.

[alkaline9]

95. any reference to god should be...

...taken out! I think when you said that "there may be one or two kids who don't believe", I think there are and will continue to be MANY more than one or two that don't believe. I think my generation (the 20-somethings) will be the first to break free of the traditional religious teachings to their children simply out of tradition.

I think more and more new families and young children will not be brainwashed with religion at a young age as many past generations have been. Science shows that any religious stories are JUST STORIES! If you want your children to have values you can teach them yourself. You do NOT need religion in a child's life to shape his/her future in a positive way.

In fact I think much of what is preached now-a-days is unfortunately hurting our society. Why should children be persuaded to be "good" by fear of not getting in to heaven or of godly judgment. I think a much better approach is to show that being a good person means working hard to take care of everything around you (ALL people, the environment, yourself, etc), and that not doing this will eventually lead to the end of our Earth. This is the only truth out there.

Some days I want so badly to begin a new "religion" so to speak... but I know that it would all make too much sense to actually get any followers. People are only interested if you're controversial...

[wli]

96. I'm an atheist; I want it gone.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

97. To be honest, I find the whole "pledge" idea rather repulsive.

Of course we love our country. Of course we'd defend it from invaders. The pledge isn't going to mean diddly squat when we come face to face with an enemy.

I'd be willing to bet that the most loyal Americans are those who don't need to spout out their allegiance to a flag like so much sputum.

[Matariki]

98. Ask her if she would object to changing it to

"One Nation under Goddess" or "One Nation under Allah"

if so, why does she object?

although it's probably a losing argument.