helping out placebo: should Native American mascots be banned?

[ulysses]

[Dr Fate]

1. Compromise: Encourage increasing Native American Studies programs...

...at schools that use Native American imagery/mascots.

Could this be the way to make lemonade out of this?

That's the best I can come up with at this point. Heard it on the Big Eddy Show.

[ulysses]

9. no.

There is no way to make lemonade here. Our students should know more about indigenous cultures anyway.

[Dr Fate]

17. This could be a way to goad schools into increasing those programs...

Perhaps they could be convinced to increase those programs before they change all their marketing & traditions?

...and the more folks learn, the more likely the students/future alumni are to be sensitive to other cultures.

You know as well as I do- nothing inflames hard-headed white people more than telling them they cant do or have somthing involving "heritage" or "tradition."

Hell, I openly opposed the Confederate Flag in GA, so I guess I'm flip-flopping here to a degree...I guess the difference with that is there was more of a split on opinion- but that split did not happen over night.

[NaturalHigh]

2. My high school team was the Warriors.

I've known of one person who was offended. Exactly how PC do we have to go?

[ulysses]

4. mind if I ask what you ethnic background is?

I'm beyond white, in the interest of full disclosure.

[NaturalHigh]

8. Not at all.

White as can be. My great-grandfather was half-Cherokee and half-Irish, but you could never tell it by looking at my pasty skin.

[ulysses]

12. then "warriors" has no particular attachment

to your background or anyone else's. Rest easy.

Of course, I'm only assuming your h.s. team mascot wasn't some cariacature of a Native American.

[HockeyMom]

16. I live on Long Island

Do you know how many of our towns are named after Indian Tribes? ChaNge the name of the TOWN? What are they going to call the teams from say, Massapequa HS? The Massapequa GLADIATORS? Dumb.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. They should be replaced with White American stereotypes

[ulysses]

6. but, as we know,

that's not the same.

[NaturalHigh]

10. I liked the "Fighting Whities" at UNC

At least I think it was UNC - an intramural team if I remember correctly.

[ulysses]

13. there was a thread about that a while back.

Much as I love the idea of the "Fighting Whities", it still isn't the same.

[Placebo]

5. i didn't realize i needed help!

well...that kind of help anyway :-p

[ulysses]

7. your poll did.

:shrug:

[mark11727]

11. Idea --- replace ALL mascots with ANIMALS...

Lions

Hawks

Pandas

Squids

etc...

[ulysses]

14. makes sense to me. n/t

[Mojambo]

22. I agree

The problem with using native American tribes as mascots is not that the names are insensitive, it's that you're placing them in the same context as other things that are being used as mascots (Most notably, animals.) Their culture is too valuable and important to be lessened in such a manner.

I can see how a member of the Seminole tribe might get a bit cranky about having their cultural heritage placed on the same level as a Husky, Lion, Bear or Frog.

[wakeme2008]

15. Even the liberal St. Pete Times is against NCAA on this

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/08/10/Opinion/NCAA_vs_Seminoles.shtml

NCAA vs. Seminoles

Social tolerance is a worthy objective, but the NCAA should have taken more care before issuing its ruling on American Indian mascots.

A Times Editorial
Published August 10, 2005

Universities are no place for symbols of social intolerance, but the NCAA won't advance that important educational cause with an assault on mascot names that is seen as more political correctness. That's why the decision to treat the Seminoles of Florida State University the same as the Savages of Southeastern Oklahoma State University, for example, is jarring and misguided. Not all mascots share the same history or meaning.

At FSU, the university has built a relationship with the Seminole Tribe of Florida that includes scholarships, consultation on Seminole symbols used at sporting events, and plans for an authentic chickee to be built in Tallahassee. The tribe itself has formally supported the university, an endorsement that should have meant something to the NCAA.

Here is how Tribe Council member Max Osceola Jr. reacted to the decision to include FSU on a list of 18 schools that are banned from using their mascot names in any NCAA post-season event: "Here's another example of non-Indians telling Indians what's good for them. No one from the NCAA came to our tribe to ask us directly.

..more at link...

[ismnotwasm]

18. I voted yes

Because of the spirit of ignorance from which most of these mascots started. There still is some college out there (Illinois?) that has some white kid dressed up in feathers and war paint before games. It the mascot can be done with a spirit of respect, then it's a little different picture. We had this debate here with a local middle school, and several Native American kids came out and said that they were NOT offended, and didn't wish the mascot to be changed. It was a dignified looking "chief" with full head eagle feather regalia.(it was changed anyway)The red-faced big nosed "injun" needs to go away, and I believe it mostly has. But some of the things we connect with American natives are sacred to many of the bands--really. It would be kind of like having Jesus doing the boogie-woogie swinging a cross over his head. So I don't know that it's so much a matter of being politically correct (a term I absolutely despise) as respectful of culture.

[intheflow]

19. Yes, but...

how far does this go? Should Notre Dame stop being the Fighting Irish because it's a derogatory depiction of Irish men? It certainly perpetuates an unflattering stereotype of Irish people. Contrast that with a team called the Braves, a stereotype of Native Americans, to be sure, but one that also acknowledges bravery, which is surely a desirable trait.

In the end, I know that it comes down to who has the right to name peoples, or use a name assigned them by others. The Irish who approve of "The Fighting Irish" have taken that derogatory term and claimed it as their own badge of honor among themselves, perhaps in the same way some African Americans have reclaimed the "N" word and use it among themselves.

What I'm saying, I guess, is that I fully support Native Americans seeking to ban N.A. mascots. But if it's good for them, I's like to see all racial stereotypes removed from sports mascots, and I just don't see that happening.

I know this is a confusing post. I guess I'm just acknowledging that there are cultural subtleties and inconsistencies in US society that are, well, confusing. Don't hit me! :hide:

[MichiganVote]

21. Names of tribes - fine. But Redskins? Come on...

I haven't heard those of Irish descent complain of the 'fighting Irish' tag and let's face it, we didn't place any Irish on reservations. We also didn't enslave them and we don't hold up huge sums of money from them.

[MichiganVote]

20. NCAA White Honkies? Yeah, sure, whites would love that.

Names and streotypical icons encourage disrespect and they are not fun for everyone.

[nemo137]

23. As an incoming Illini,

I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, it's a proud name, and apparently comes from a speech about the whole man given my a long-ago Illinois coach, who cited the supposed Illini concept of manhood (fwiw, Illini translates out literally as "man"). I'm an Illinoisan, and proud to be going to U of I, and for me U of I has always been the Fighting Illini. On the other hand, if the First Nations people left in Illinois feel offended by us jacking their name for our team, then we should change. I'd recommend the Fightin' Flatlanders, with our proud mascot, Fred the Soybean.

[AntiCoup2K4]

24. Here's a simple question for those who don't see the problem here..

Would you tolerate a sports team called the "Oakland Niggers" or the "New York Kikes"??

Apologies for using the offensive racist words. But the word "Redskin" is no better than either of them.