So I didn't stand for the pledge today...

[Idioteque]

If you have read the thread I posted last night entitled "Why I won't be saying the pledge tommorow", you know that me and a few friends decided to sit out the pledge today.

We went through with our plan. Although four of us did not stand, the only ones to get referrals were myself and one of the kids that did not stand yesterday either.

We were told to sit in the office to wait for the assistant principle. Our referrals were for defiance. The teacher wrote a description something along the lines of "Refused to stand to show respect to the flag after being told to stand." (It should be noted that I was never told directly to stand...the teacher called my friends to her desk yesterday to talk to them but I never received a direct order that I was defying).

I've heard that while we were in the office the teacher gave a spiel to the class about the importance of standing to "support the troops" during the war on terror. (I wonder what she thinks of Cindy Sheehan?)

After about 15 minutes, she came into the office holding a description of the supreme court case West Virginia State Board of Education vs. Barnette provided to her by one of our friends who didn't get a referral.

Although she didn't read it, she dismissed it immediately. (I kid you not, she actually said that because the ruling was from 1943, it doesn't matter. I was thinking of informing her that they don't expire ^_^.)

The Assistant Principle was out so we're told to return to class. The secretary said that we would be paged when he was back.

They never called us back. I'm not sure if the AP decided to throw our referrals out (he is a pretty fair guy) or if he is going to speak to us next week. If the referrals aren't reversed, we are prepared to inform the ACLU.

I'll try to keep you guys updated. Thanks for the support! :)

[villager]

1. thank *you*

n/t

[rlev1223]

55. Regarding the West Virginia case

Justice Jackson, who later was the chief prosecutor at the Nuremburg trials, wrote the opinion. A good teacher would use it as the basis of a discussion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_H._Jackson

[July]

72. That would be a great idea.

The actual discussion of the issues is terrific. I believe the opinion was issued on FLAG DAY, in the middle of WWII, as well.

There was a later Supreme Court case (I don't remember its name) that addressed the issue of standing. The SC ruled that one cannot be forced to change one's positon (bow head, stand, put hand over heart, etc.) during the pledge.

In other words, the teacher was WRONG.

Schools can ask students not to disrupt others from saying the pledge, but cannot force students to participate in any way.

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. Stick to yer guns, sweetie. Show that Principal your principles. ;^D

[Ian David]

3. You rock! Keep us informed!

[FreedomAngel82]

114. I LOVE that cartoon! It's so cute!

[movie_girl99]

4. way to go!!!! n/t

[Career Prole]

5. Know what?

:yourock:

I'm proud of ya!

[Ian David]

6. Maybe pledge to The United Federation of Planets?

8 Year old suspended for pledging to United Federation of Planets

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United Federation of Planets, and to the galaxy for which it stands, one universe, under everybody, with liberty and justice for all species.


Hey, Klingons have feelings, too!

I got a call from the elementary school administrative assistant this morning.

"Mrs. Jaworski?" I could hear her tapping a pencil against the desk.

"Uh yes, and it's Ms., please."

"Your son, 8, has been suspended for the day. Come here and pick him up."

She didn't give me time to answer, to ask questions, her voice disappeared as if someone cut the line. I stood in the kitchen, my bare feet aching from yesterday's marathon, and I took a deep breath. My son can be a nut at times, but he's never done the kinds of things that troubled kids do. He doesn't talk back, he doesn't pick fights, and he's never destroyed property. I couldn't picture him doing anything scholastically evil. Maybe he stripped and ran around the school naked, I thought. I grabbed my keys and headed out the door.

So she told me what he did. And as she told me, I started to laugh. I didn't laugh a little, either, but I belly-laughed and grabbed my stomach. My son stood with his class this morning, put small right hand over heart, faced the American flag, and recited his own personal pledge of allegiance:

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United Federation of Planets, and to the galaxy for which it stands, one universe, under everybody, with liberty and justice for all species.

More:
http://blogs.salon.com/0003522/2005/06/06.html#a576

[progressoid]

23. Holy crap - is that for real?

[1monster]

75. Had my son been suspended for that, I would have told the principal that

she was going to IMMEDIATELY unsuspend my child or she and the Superintendent of the School District, as well as the School Board would be hearing from my lawyer and perhaps the ACLU. (And I work for the school district.)

While the child's pledge was funny, the reaction to it was not.

[FreedomAngel82]

115. Aw what a sweet pledge

[steve2470]

7. Good for you !!!!!

Always remember the principles of civil disobedience and you will do great. :-)

[latebloomer]

8. Good for you!!

The whole ideao of pledging allegiance to a flag really bothers me. And nobody has the right to force you to do so.

[kestrel91316]

105. If the flag pledge is not said of our own free will .................

it loses ALL meaning. And if someone doesn't want to pledge to the flag, that's their right. I hear the Amish, Mennonites, Quakers, and some other religious groups do not say the pledge. Big deal.

[tblue37]

108. Jehovah's Witnesses used to be terribly abused

by "patriots" because their religion does not permit them to swear secular oaths.

[kestrel91316]

111. I personally think JW is a STRANGE religion (like a lot of the fundies)

but for pete's sake, I don't think they or anybody else should be pilloried for a religious opposition to the pledge or oaths.

I had a JW employee once (nice girl, a little odd) who was raised JW so that pretty much cured her of any tendency to pursue membership as an adult. She never got any birthday or Christmas presents growing up. But she said they did give lots of "just for the heck of it" gifts to make up.

[tblue37]

141. My sister and her 2 adult children are JWs.

We don't discuss religion, because she knows how I feel about that stuff, and we have no desire to ruin our relationship over it, but she and her kids are good, decent people.

[Nite Owl]

9. Thanks for letting us know

what happened today. Would it be a good idea to let the ACLU know what has transpired so far? They might be able to provide you with more info.

You and your classmates sure make me fear a little less for our future.

[ibegurpard]

10. I'm confused

Where is it that a school is getting the authority to force students to say the Pledge of Allegiance?

[Southpaw Bookworm]

19. Several states have passed legislation

Requiring the Pledge on a daily basis. SCOTUS just ruled that such requirements are not unconstitutional and a not a violation of church and state.

http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2219

[WalrusSlayer]

28. Not exactly applicable here

Current state law mandates that the pledge be recited at public school each day, but does not force students to participate. Meyers told the court his two children had been forced to participate at times by substitute teachers and others.

So even in Virginia (the state where the SCOTUS ruling discussed in the article applies), student participation is not mandatory. So the original poster would have been within her rights to abstain, even under Virginia law.

[kbm8795]

65. What a surprise. . ..it's Virginia.

The nation's most historical example of tyranny in the making. The state that once tried to enforce an official church membership requirement in order to vote or hold property. And of course, the home of the 700 Club, America's finest example of televised religious quackery.

[Mairead]

73. And what's sad is that Virginia originally produced

George Mason, the author of the Bill of Rights. He walked out rather than sign the proposed new Constitution, and spoke out in Virginia against its ratification.

"He explained his reasons at length, citing the absence of a declaration of rights as his primary concern. He then discussed the provisions of the Constitution point by point, beginning with the House of Representatives.

The House he criticized as not truly representative of the nation, the Senate as too powerful. He also claimed that the power of the federal judiciary would destroy the state judiciaries, render justice unattainable, and enable the rich to oppress and ruin the poor. These fears led Mason to conclude that the new government was destined to either become a monarchy or fall into the hands of a corrupt, oppressive aristocracy."

We have the Bill Of Rights today mostly because of the respect in which he was held--the Federalists gave in on the BOR because they feared that he could single-handedly prevent ratification.

The sad part, of course, is that he was right: the House is not representative, the Senate is too powerful, the poor are exploited mercilessly by the wealthy, and the government is indeed in the hands of a corrupt, oppressive aristocracy.

[kbm8795]

66. What if you are an exchange student?

They aren't American citizens - wouldn't they feel a bit put-out being ORDERED to rise to pledge allegiance to a nation they are only visiting?

[pop goes the weasel]

159. that's not a SCOTUS ruling, I think

from the looks of it, it was a state court.

[manic expression]

11. That's very, very great...

I, too, have refused to stand for the pledge in class last year, and I intend to do the same this year.

It takes a lot of courage to do that, and I tip my hat to you and those who took part with you.

Don't give up! Don't lose your conviction! Know that you're not alone!

THANK YOU.

[Hamlette]

12. you're my hero! Good for you!!

[Craig3410]

13. Geez, what a republifascist.

My senior year of HS, I never got in trouble for not standing.

I just pretended I was asleep :D

[Roland99]

14. W A Y...C O O L ! ! !

Keep it up, Idioteque!


It's with youth like yourself that I still have some hope for the future of the great nation.

[LeftNYC]

15. Free! Country! nt

[firefox]

16. Schools are supposed to teach

What kind of education comes from wasting valuable time repeating anything every single school day? Indoctrination is for North Korea and should not be in our schools anyway. But there is no group of words that need repeating every single day, even if they were not indoctrination mumbo jumbo.

I would ask to be excused from the exercise completely. Tell him you already know the words and tell them they should start in reciting the Preamble to the Constitution, as people should understand America Inc. has long ignored the mission state of government.

Do they want sheep or scholars? Well, it is to obvious to answer.

[BeFree]

17. I did that too...

...but they knew better than to haul my ass into the principal's office. hehe

That was thirty years ago. Nowadays, at functions when the pledge is said, I stand up in respect to my colleagues but mumble the first part of the pledge until it gets to the ...with Liberty and Justice for All. That's when I make sure my voice is heard, loud and clear.

[FreedomAngel82]

116. Good

I get so pissed off at all these rightwingers who claim to stand for "freedom" and "democracy" and all that and say the pledge with some pride and then they turn around and deny rights to immigrants and gay people. :mad: It's so hypocritical!!

[Rude Horner]

18. Stand for your principles. You're right on this

Blind obedience to a flag, a nation, or a leader, is what they want. But contrary to what your teacher or principle or all those "good americans" will tell you, it's dangerous.

I'll be proud of my country when my country does something to be proud of. Until then, I will not just play along and put a ribbon on my car, wave the flag and be a good little american.

A fascist America is not not what our forefathers had in mind.

***
In other news....It's my 100th post! Woohoo!!
:bounce:

[I Have A Dream]

29. Congrats on your 100th post, Rude Horner! n/t

[LizMoonstar]

20. I am a member of a speaking club with my boss and my co-workers

and we start each meeting with the pledge. as i work for these people, I don't remain seated, but i stand without participating, as I do when my overly Christian relatives give prayers over dinner. I feel like it's a good combination of respect and dissent at a level I can handle. Keep up the good work, kid!

[Kerrytravelers]

21. Let the ACLU know ASAP!

As a teacher myself, I have never made a student stand for the pledge. That is an individual choice.

[annabanana]

22. Yeah! The kids are ALRIGHT!

Just when I'm about to pack my '60's optimism into a dusty old trunk, I hear a story of new sparks and flames of fight.

Always remember, kids.. YOU are right in this one!

[Salviati]

24. Good god, your teacher is a moron...

So in 1943, in the midst of fighting the facists in Europe, the SC rules that students can't be forced to say the pledge. Of course idiots will claim that 911 "changed everything"(tm) and now our constitional rights must be given up so we can force everyone to swear fealty to Bush and his trumped up oil war, which in their eyes is the most just and noble war ever to be fought in the 6009 years since God created the Earth...

Sheesh. The blinding idiocy of some people staggers me. What does she teach anyway, I hope it's not social studies...

[MuseRider]

25. I read your thread

last night with interest and I am glad you got back to us with the update. I have not read through all the responses yet but in case no one had already suggested this here goes. If you are told you must stand and you do not have the ACLU already working for you go ahead and stand and simply turn your back. Simple, a way to hold to your ideals. You may still get in trouble but this teacher is way out of line.

[northzax]

26. the first thing you should do

is spell principal right :)

the second thing you should do is agree to stand and say the pledge. However, everytime the word 'god' shows up, insert the name of a different god, Yaweh, Vishnu, Allah, Flying Spaghetti Monster, David Koresh, Eric Clapton.

[I Have A Dream]

31. With all due respect...

I feel that if someone feels as though he/she shouldn't stand, the person shouldn't stand. If the approach you state works for you, that's wonderful, but it doesn't work for everyone. Again, I don't mean any disrespect from this post -- I just don't agree with what you're saying. What you're saying is probably what I would do, but I pick my battles -- I don't want anyone else picking them for me. Therefore, if this is a battle that this person deems worthy, more power to him/her; it takes real courage to do this, and obviously the person is following his/her conscience.

[kbm8795]

67. I agree. . .

And patriotism isn't shown by going through some forced ceremony as dictated by some wingnut, but by real behavior in how you treat others. In that respect, wingnuts fail every time.

[FreedomAngel82]

117. Exactly

It's for standing up for the true principals of this country which is in the Consitution and Bill of Rights.

[Idioteque]

43. We don't have time to learn to spell...too busy pledging ;) n/t

[tavalon]

53. LOL

Good retort.

Wow, you're doing this at your age. You are going to be one of our stars.

Great work and, BTW, you may think your teacher is a raving idiot but by the time you get to be my age (41), you'll know it for sure. ;)

(that last line comes from when they used to tell me that I just didn't understand and when I got a little older.......Yeah, right!)

[HeeBGBz]

76. Hahahahaha, great comeback

You are a bright and shining hope for the future. Rock on!

[uncle ray]

51. yeah, use the learning aid they taught me in school...

the principal is your "pal":eyes:

edit: spelling error of course!

[AuntieM1957]

57. Well, you're just wrong about that

since you feel so comfortable telling her what to do, I guess I'll follow your lead.

You're wrong.

No one should ever pledge allegiance to anyone or anything if it is not what they truly feel.

Not pledging out of protest to a particular action of a beloved country is also valid.

P.S. Eric Clapton is god-like with a guitar, but the only rock God is Bruce.

David Koresh just thought he was God. Not the same thing.

[Dr Fate]

27. I guess I have to revise my "Dont trust anyone under 30" motto.

Do what you think is right, Kiddo!

Keep making good grades and no one can touch you.

[Redstone]

30. I NEVER said the Pledge in school, because I'm an Indian.

Never got in trouble for it. But that was in the 1960s; I guess things have changed.

Redstone

[tk2kewl]

32. Way to go!

I guess that explains why the Constitution doesn't matter anymore... Heck, it's over 200 years old.

[friesianrider]

33. I'd inform the ACLU about that teacher anyway.

Crazy neo-con bitch. She can't do that - tell her to keep her personal political views OUT of the classroom.

[ihaveaquestion]

34. I thought this was settled YEARS ago!

This was an issue when I was in high school (during Vietnam) and the administration then just gave up on controlling us. I think they had all they could do just to keep us in school. We didn't have to stand or recite the pledge, just be quiet. They also threw out the dress code and the haircut standards and then they went a little too far and allowed smoking during lunch breaks in a specific area of the school courtyard. This was in a Maryland suburb of DC.

:hippie:

[Ariana Celeste]

35. I was in highschool recently and didn't stand either.

It was my silent protest. When in class, teachers didn't mind. I got no problem from them. However, during assemblies, other teachers, and administrators, were rude to me. They tried to intimidate me. They threatened me with suspension.

Guess what? They never followed through with it. ;)

I can't remember the exact words I used, but it was something along the lines of "I'll say the pledge when I start agreeing with what the government is making our country do in the world."

[kbm8795]

68. As a college teacher, I can tell you that I would be incensed

if I saw some other teacher/administrator intimidating a student for something so ridiculous. Of course, I'm much older now, but it would have taken every bit of patience in my heart to have stopped myself from looking right back at one of those "teachers" or "administrators" and remarking how they can be suspended too. . .for intimidation.

[Ariana Celeste]

71. I'm wondering if a teacher spoke to them.

I can't think of any other reason why they didn't go through with their threats. Other than maybe one of the teachers who supported me or even just a teacher who knows better spoke with them. This was in '03.

[anitar1]

36. Good for you! This Granma is behind you. n/t

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

37. My 14 year old son has not stood for the pledge, and maybe because

we're in NY, his teacher didn't say boo about it.

[donco6]

38. They can't do anything to you for not standing.

Not even discipline - the referral is wrong, too. They can't get you for anything UNLESS you disrupt the school environment (i.e., chant, make noise, throw stuff, etc.)

[neonplaque]

39. Rock On !

I hope they call you back in Monday and attempt to enforce the referrals. If you're like me, you'll know when to fight the good fight! DON'T BACK DOWN! :) Peace.

[blindpig]

40. Good for you!

I did the same back in the day(71-72) with about the same results. Didn't stand for the rest of the year.

I think it takes more guts today than it took back then, we weren't facing the gargantuan propaganda of today. You be tough!:bounce:

[zippy890]

41. Good for you - I'm proud of you

Your story reminded me of me in high school

I was 16 in 1970 - there was lots of civil disobedience over the vietnam war.

A friend & I decided to sit during the pledge of allegiance, which was not recieved well by the teacher. He made us get up, - but he couldn't make us say the pledge, which we refused to do.

You are courageous & I commend you for exercising your constituional rights.

ps - My mother taught us to omit the "under God" when reciting the pledge - she was a strong believer in separation of church and state. She ran the Sunday School program at the church we belonged to, so it wasn't for lack of faith on her part.

[otohara]

42. Bravo

to you and your friends.

[Jazzgirl]

44. Back in the 60's I refused to stand for the pledge too.

I never got in trouble and we lived on a military base. My Mom and stepfather were teachers and we lived on the base. I got to the point where the pledge just didn't make sense to me. Why would I pledge allegiance to a country that really didn't like me anyway? I'm a black female and this was during the time of Martin Luther King's assasination. I refused to stand for a flag that didn't believe I had rights too. Good for you! Stand for your principles!

:hippie:

[Midnight Rambler]

45. Damn the man!

I graduated in 2000, but were I still in a situation where I had to say the pledge, I'd have done the same thing. Probably wouldn't have been wise, since my uncle was a teacher at my high school and would've known about it immediately, plus the fact that my mother was (and still is) an administrator in the same school district and she would've quickly been informed as well. Wouldn't have mattered though. She knows how I feel, and my brother feels the same way, albiet on a much less subdued level, and I would've gladly taken any punishment both at home and school knowing that I stood up for Free Speech.

:yourock:

[Ilsa]

46. Stay calm, cool, and matter-of-fact about the issue.

Don't let emotions rule the day. Be logical. You don't want anyone claiming you were irrational or threatening or emotional about it.

I think you're going to do great next week. :bounce: Good luck.

[I Have A Dream]

49. Good advise, Ilsa. n/t

[titoresque]

47. way to go!

I think back and wish that I had a chance to do a few things over again. Not major regrets, just that I wish I had spoke my mind more often when I was your age. I really give my kids that respect and I try to foster a good balance so that they can speak out without just being thought of as brats. You should be proud of the stand you and your friends are taking at this point in your life. It will serve you well later on.

keep us posted :)

[FreedomAngel82]

119. I'm the same way

I'm working on it now though to stand up to people. It's still hard sometimes for me but I'm working on it and pray all the time to God to give me the strength to stand up for what's right.

[Obamanaut]

48. Even though I'm retired military, or because of it -

I agree with you completely. In high school in 1960, I was captured several times by the prayer police for not participating in the morning recitation of the mandatory "lord's" prayer. They finally gave up on me.

You're the second person this week on DU to get on my hero list.

[immoderate]

50. I support you.

The pledge always seemed like an un-American thing to do. A flag is a piece of cloth.

It seems to me that this is modeled on medieval oaths of fealty where loyalty is pledged to a lord. The Constitution negates the need for that.

In some situations I can see an oath to support and defend the Constitution which, at least, has some ideas which are worth defending.

You may find interesting this essay about Mark Twain and the "treason of saluting the flag."

http://www.boondocksnet.com/twainwww/essays/twain_saluting_flag020630.html

--IMM

[kestrel91316]

107. Don't some religions also consider it idolatry?

[slay]

52. From what I understand

the words "under God" were not in the original pledge anyways. I totally support you standing up (or not standing up as is the case here) for your beliefs. Rock on! :yourock:

[kbm8795]

69. lol..maybe that's why the witch teacher

considered a 1943 Supreme Court ruling not applicable. Every wingnut knows that the Pledge didn't become honorable until they added the words "under GOD" in the 1950's.

Someone needs to inform this teacher that she isn't being employed to let students in on her personal belief system. She has a textbook. .. and plenty of room to provide a variety of examples. If she is incapable of doing that, she needs to look for another career. . .like pharmacy, where she can throw her weight around deciding for others if her religious beliefs will allow them to have a prescription filled.

[FreedomAngel82]

120. That's right

The original pledge was written by a Baptist minister who was a Christian Socialist. He got the idea from a cousin of his (Edward something) and the idea of the original pledge was without "under God" because he wanted everybody to feel involved. Of course in 1954 with all the "anti-Communism" stuff going on it was added.

[AuntieM1957]

54. While you're informing them...

you might want to remind them that freedom from standing is precisely what the flag represents. I certainly hope it wasn't a civics teacher who tried to coerce you.

I still stand for the flag, still say the pledge - but leave my God out of my government.

And I think what you are doing is great. No words of allegiance have any meaning at all if students are COERCED, BULLIED, AND RIDICULED into repeating them.

[MelissaB]

56. I'm a teacher, and I sat with you today.

:hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. Good for you, and by the way, nwo this is going to your generation

good, we need everybody in this

[Used and Abused]

59. the flag is an idol!

I will not pledge, worship, or make promises to inanimate objects.

[bluestateguy]

60. Your teacher is the one breaking the law, not you

You may also want to contact your local media.

[uppityperson]

61. Congratulations for sticking to your ethics.

good job, and good job with the W.Virginia ruling.

[Mythsaje]

62. We used to pledge our livers

to some unspecified entity.

We didn't show school spirit either. A "pep" assembly was an excuse to sneak out the back door and go do something non-conformist.

It's a good thing they're not dealing with ME these days. I'm the immovable object when I dig in my heels. And they would've gotten short thrift with my father. He's more anti-establishment than I am...he was just louder about it.

[Bill McBlueState]

63. *because the ruling was from 1943, it doesn't matter*

...dies of laughter.

[bluestateguy]

70. Does that mean Brown vs. Board of Education will expire in 11 years?

:)

[kbm8795]

64. She needs to be fired.

Honestly. This type of coercion is beyond the pale for any teacher. She neither has the right nor the ethical power to require anything of the sort. First, she doesn't define what is loyalty or patriotism for this nation - second, her students are not her prisoners; third, she is employed by the community to educate, not indoctrinate.

The school cannot require everyone to stand for anything. If you go to a football game, for example, the announcer almost always says "PLEASE rise for the playing of our national anthem." Notice the word PLEASE? That isn't a requirement; you aren't ejected from your paid seat for choosing NOT to rise. It's a request.

In my opinion, it is neither her business nor her perogative to dictate displays of patriotism and what forms they must take to placate her nonsense. You were neither being disruptive nor defiant of her instruction, because she isn't being paid to instruct the class in patriotism according to her own beliefs.

I think the four of you should compose a letter to the local Board of Education concerning this behavior. And you should mention that she used class time to bully students into displaying behaviors that reinforce HER beliefs - moreover, where does she get off thinking she can claim to "support the troops" just because she orders people to stand? You are high school seniors - and this is a classroom, not a church. And she isn't a minister - she's a teacher.

I'm willing to bet a round of cokes and burgers to you guys that this is a woman who "respects" the flag by leaving hers hanging out in the rain at her house while she's at work; while wearing a flag sweater (which was considered desecration in the 1960's) and putting a vinyl flag tablecloth on a picnic table for the Fourth of July. It seems to me that you guys have every right to not only question HER patriotism but her dismissal of that 1943 Supreme Court case as an example of her inability to teach anything related to American history and government.

[Massacure]

74. I doubt the AP will do anything.

I'm a senior, and last year we had a stupid sub who insisted on the pledge. All she got was "Oh Canada" instead, and nothing really happened to us. But I suppose Wisconsin is different than where you live.

[sakabatou]

77. Crazy, crazy chickenhawks

[dissent1977]

78. I would contact the ACLU now to let them know what is happening

It is very possible as soon as the school received a phone call from them that they would back off instead of taking the matter to court, but it will show them that they can not force you to do something you don't believe in. If they don't think there is any possibility of them getting in any trouble over this the teacher will likely continue trying to force the students to stand, but if she receives a threat of litigation against her for doing so then she will be forced to recognize the students right. I would get on the phone with the ACLU right now, I am sure they would be more than happy to call the school for you.

[Warren DeMontague]

79. Another thumbs up.

Good Job! :thumbsup:

[NVMojo]

80. right on!

I've been walking out on the pledge for about 2 years now.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mr_Spock]

83. Enjoy your stay.

This kid is a hero and your a zero.

[greekspeak]

84. "you better stand and say the pledge"

The point exactly that the OP was trying to make...stand up and salute or else. That is fascism. Maybe if you don't like protest or critique of America when it does wrong, you can take your own advise..."don't let the door hit you in the ass."

Further, the reason why the flags are upside down is that the flag flown upside down is a sign of distress. America is in distress right now, and the upside down flags are an acknowledgement of it.

Then, your equation of majority viewpoint with patriotism is absurd. True patriotism is something you feel, something inside. It is not rambling off a few words because an authority figure forces you to, or because you are afraid not to.

And finally, as you lecture the OP and everyone else about "the troops" and what supporting them means, if you have served your country in the armed forces, thank you. If not, I suggest you find the nearest recruitment office and sign up. Thank you and welcome to DU.

[deadparrot]

92. Obviously, he doesn't have the freedom NOT to say the pledge,

now does he? You contradict the very "freedoms" you speak of.

I could care less what the majority of Americans think. People tell me that a majority of Americans picked a monster to be our president. A majority of Americans were once against school integration and interracial marriage.

Oh, and by the way, if you're so concerned with what the majority of Americans think, keep in mind that the majority of Americans DISAPPROVE of your Commander-in-Thief.

Enjoy your stay, freeptard.

[greekspeak]

94. He clearly does not understand freedom. Clearly

America is not about a Toby Keith song telling all "My way or a boot in your ass." That is PATENTLY unamerican.

[Mr_Spock]

85. This country was founded by free thinkers

Not butt sniffing cowardly robots like you!

[immoderate]

87. What good is freedom if you can't exercise it.

Pledging to a piece of cloth is creepy. Sounds like you are ordering people what to do, and being judgmental.

Welcome to DU. Enjoy your, um, stay.

(Oops. This is in reply to post #81. In case that's not clear.)

--IMM

[Mr_Spock]

89. Hehe - I figured it out

:D

[immoderate]

97. Whew!

:hi:

--IMM

[Mr_Spock]

86. A patriot stands up to his oppressor - like our founders

If it were up to cowardly conservatives like you there would be no America and tea would be $10 a cup and you would pay it like a two bit robot who has no individual freedoms.

[Cats Against Frist]

91. Uh, how's it a free country, if people have to say the pledge, or leave?

I love right-wing, big-government-loving authoritarians. :eyes:

[FreedomAngel82]

122. Oh yes

"We're for freedom and democracy!" Only your way right?

[Midnight Rambler]

95. "I am telling you right now to leave"

This little line of yours shows not only how little you tolerate another viewpoint, but also how little you understand the very freedoms represented by that flag. This young man/woman, like many others, is exercising his Constitutional right to Free Speech, something that you obviously know very little about.

What you sir do not understand is that while we may not agree with what you have to say, we will defend your right to say it. From your post, I gather you would like for all of us who disagree with you to shut our mouths and leave the country. You are a hypocrite of astonishing proportions, and I pity you.

I will call you what you are, a fascist, because you care more about loyalty than freedom. You are not a patriot, you are a jingoist.

[Mr_Spock]

96. Please defend this tripe - you haven't been banned yet

C'mon, I dare you to post your second post defending that blather rather than linking to your fellow mindless 'Merkins.

[Midnight Rambler]

99. Yes, please defend yourself

I know this person will be gone soon, but before he goes, let him explain why his viewpoint must be tolerated, but somehow Idioteque's is unconscionable. Let him explain why he hates Free Speech.

[Ladyhawk]

82. Sounds like another case of the student being smarter than the teacher.

Sigh.

It's so awkward when that happens.

"After about 15 minutes, she came into the office holding a description of the supreme court case West Virginia State Board of Education vs. Barnette provided to her by one of our friends who didn't get a referral.

Although she didn't read it, she dismissed it immediately. (I kid you not, she actually said that because the ruling was from 1943, it doesn't matter. I was thinking of informing her that they don't expire ^_^.)"

Your teacher is an idiot.

[Mr_Spock]

88. "Think, it's patriotic" - don't let an idealog push you around

You are a leader and that is a good thing to be.

I have "Think, it's patriotic" on my car - it means be a leader, not a follower. You have a bright future.

[SunDrop23]

90. "...because the ruling was from 1943, it doesn't matter."

Wow.

Anyway, thanks for keeping us in the loop.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Liberal In Texas]

93. Supreme Court decisions have expiration dates? This is a TEACHER???

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. A person in a position to pass her ignorance on to the next generation. Pathetic.

[orleans]

98. if my daughter did that i would back her 1000%

and i've told her

(i have issues with the "god" part)

she doesn't like to make waves--unlike her mom.

however, i did manage to get her to pass out some "opt-out" forms to the kids at her high school when i found out that the high school didn't notify anyone about it -- as was required by law. (needless to say, the situation has been corrected...maybe not "needless to say" but i rode the thing and we all got letters sent home informing parents about it.)

[Redneck Socialist]

101. Jeebus Christ! What area of the country do you live in?

I can't believe anyone gives a shit about standing for the pledge. I worked in a high school last school year and some kids stood, some didn't. No one gave a rat's ass one way or another.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ulysses]

104. Americans are dying for the freedoms

we should give up because Americans are dying for them?

:freak:

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[immoderate]

109. The flag is a piece of cloth.

It is not freedom! Freedom is freedom! The flag will not do shit without the right people and ideas behind it. Right now it is used as a symbol for lies and aggression.

Freedom and honesty are more important than the flag. Which would you want to live without? If you can give up freedom and honesty to be with a flag, that says what about you?

Think before you answer.

--IMM

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Phentex]

140. The flag does not stand. It's usually hung.

It's a symbol for some. For others, it's a piece of cloth. No one should be required to stand and face a symbol IF THEY DON'T WANT TO!

[immoderate]

147. It stands for many things.

It stands for freedom when there is freedom. It stands for oppression when we invade other countries. It stands for no universal health care. It stands for racism. It stands for special treatment for corporations. To people in Central America it stands for death squads.

In short, it stand for the deeds we do. But it is still a stand in. It is not freedom. It is not the actual thing.

George Bush's flag stands for lying, and plundering and incompetence. Was the flag lesson the only day you were awake in history class?

I don't worship idols.

--IMM

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[immoderate]

152. Nope. It's a piece of cloth.

I choose to not participate in these rituals. They are silly. If you like it, you can do it. I don't go out of my way to deface or derogate the flag. But this flag worship is for the simple minded. You imply that not participating is disrespectful. That's just not true. In a truly free country, one does not have to feign obeisance.

I have done the things you mention above in other countries. These are my inalienable rights, for which I am endowed by my creator (in my case that's my parents.) The flag, for some, serves the same purpose as blinders. Where did you get the idea that the US holds the monopoly on free thought?

--IMM

[TankLV]

155. That flag currently stands for OPPRESSION & WAR CRIMINALS!

It has NOTHING to do with "freedom".

[pop goes the weasel]

160. I'm a historian

We don't teach that the flag stands for freedom. In fact, we don't pay that much attention to the flag at all, what with all the dead people we have to squeeze into 45 minutes. Those dead people, now, most of them, the ones we talk about, they stood for freedom. What little time is spent on the flag is about its use as a symbol of national identity. National identity, not freedom. Haul the US flag up a pole in some other country, and other people do not think "freedom." They think "USA." Don't get the two confused, or you may someday find yourself following a dictator who waves the Stars and Stripes at every opportunity.

[Brewman_Jax]

110. The Constitution is what you have pledged to defend

not the flag. You are lying to say otherwise. Since you have a problem with free speech, you can go somewhere it is not available. I will not extend you welcome, for you do NOT comprehend nor stand for the principles for which the USA was brought to existence.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TankLV]

156. What "freedom and liberty"?

Have you been asleep for the past 5 years?

And to clarify: you ARE a "flag waving MINDLESS dickhead".

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mr_Spock]

118. Hey, you got a new name - enjoy your stay!!

"While I do not agree with what you are doing and what is being said on this board "

Then go away you flag waving dick head.

[Mr_Spock]

121. To non-Nazis, freedom is more important than being an automaton

Nazi's were automatons like you. Is that what you want your country to become - a bunch of non-questioning robots? This country wouldn't even exist if it weren't for people who questioned the status quo. Not that you like this country at all since a country is made of people and you seem to have a problem with the free thinking people that make country's like the USA great. This is America - love it for it's FREEDOMS or leave.

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FreedomAngel82]

123. Turn your back on the flag?

WTF is that all about? The flag is a PIECE OF CLOTH MADE FROM CHINA! What is more important is the Constiution and Bill of Rights. Not a freakin piece of cloth made from China! I'm sure you support it. :eyes: One second you say you support it and then turn around and say not to abandon or whatever. Whatever, what a hypocrite.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mr_Spock]

143. Well, your user name was used by a freeper who was benned before

I don't forget things like that.

[Mr_Spock]

144. Well, your user name was used by a freeper who was banned before

I don't forget things like that.

[Name removed]

151. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bluestateguy]

125. There is no law that says anyone has to love America

There just isn't.

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mr_Spock]

145. Let's get all caught up in symbols while Dubya destroys our reputation

around the world. Glad you got your priorities straight :eyes:

[Name removed]

149. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bluestateguy]

158. Even that, there is no law mandating respect

We are obligated to obey the law and not bring harm upon other people.

But respect is earned, and people often forget that the First Amendment to the Constitution does not guarantee a "right" to politeness, courtesy and to not be offended.

[TankLV]

154. The flag is just a piece of FABRIC. I pledge my allegiance to the

CONSTITUTION and particularly AGAINST THE REPUKE PARTY AND ALL TO WHICH IT STANDS FOR, and also particularly AGAINST BUNKERBOY AND HIS ENTIRE FAMILY!

We see the flag as a representation of the CURRENT OCCUPATION OF OUR COUNTRY BY WAR CRIMINALS. And to NOT show "respect" to that SYMBOL, we DO honor the original country BEFORE IT WAS TAKEN OVER BY WAR CRIMINALS!

[Name removed]

162. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ulysses]

103. you have the support of this teacher.

:applause:

[cloud75]

106. you got support in south texas

[Liberal In Texas]

112. And North Texas...n/t

[FreedomAngel82]

113. Good luck!

I remember one time when I was in high school in my biology class there was this guy who refused to stand up and do the pledge. The teacher freaked out on him (I was surprised really) but she didn't do anything. He was really calm and cool and collected and said he didn't have to stand up. I think it's outrageous what they did. I'm glad you're prepared to go to the ACLU because they're taking away a right of yours of free speech.

[usregimechange]

132. I can tell you from stuying the law on this, they broke the law

So, got a lawyer?

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mr_Spock]

146. What's your answer to this repression smarty pants?

Oh, that's right, you think people should be thrown in jail for not wanting to do some symbolic nonsense, but murdering 10's of thousands of civilians is good, right?

[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TankLV]

157. Ahh - but THIS war - BUNKERBOY'S WAR - is a war of CHOICE

BASED ON LIES!

It is far from like other wars.

To agree to it is to support WAR CRIMINALS!

[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mcar]

137. They didn't break the law

Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in pledging to the flag and don't. I have yet to see or hear about a Jehovah's Witness getting arrested for not pledging to the flag.

What law?

[knitter4democracy]

135. I was trained to teach at a Christian college--and they told us

that we couldn't force or intimidate anyone to stand for the pledge. Seriously! We had a few discussions about it in various classes with some RW'ers getting all hot and bothered about it, but we all agreed that students shouldn't be forced to do it and cannot even be intimidated to do it.

Stick to your guns. They can't make you stand, and if they make you stand, they can't make you talk. You actually have the right to leave the room during the Pledge (as Seventh Day Adventists do), which you might want to start doing. ;)

[usregimechange]

136. From National School Boards Association's Council of School Attorneys

"Barnette and its progeny make clear that
any school district or state adopting a Pledge
of Allegiance policy or law should avoid
coercing participation and punishing refusal
to participate in any aspect of the flag ritual,
including, standing, saluting the flag, and
reciting the Pledge. Schools should consider
using permissive rather than mandatory language
to introduce the recitation of the
Pledge—“You may now stand to recite the
Pledge,” rather than, “Now we will all stand to
recite the Pledge.” Schools may require that
non-participants maintain order and decorum
appropriate to the school environment.
Schools may allow students choosing not to
participate in the Pledge to leave the classroom,
but they should not require them to do
so. By making participation voluntary, schools
not only will be avoiding First Amendment litigation,
but will also be teaching children that
tolerance of dissenting views does not threaten
American values, but rather strengthens
them."

Burns, Thomas. (2002). The Pledge of Allegiance: Teaching Tolerance for Political and Religious Dissent. National School Boards Association's Council of School Attorneys: ISSN: 1069-0190

[usregimechange]

138. Also contact AU's legal Dept.

[e-mail]
or
http://www.au.org/site/Survey?ACTION_REQUIRED=URI_ACTION_USER_REQUESTS&SURVEY_ID=1021

[usregimechange]

139. Please, let us contact your school, put some pressure on them...

[Idioteque]

164. I'd kindly ask that you refrain from contacting them for now...

...I still have to talk to the AP. I don't want it to look like I am activly seeking trouble. Flooding the school could really hurt the cause.

I really, really appreciate your willingness to help. It's awesome to know that folks from all over are standing (err sitting) with us. Thanks!

[mopaul]

142. right on you little rabble rouser! screw king george