I dialed 911 last night because I witnessed a mother hitting her child

[toey]

I was sitting in my living room minding my own business when all the sudden I heard blood-curdling screams outside my apartment. I muted my TV to make sure where it was coming from. I proceeded to get up and walk outside with my cell phone. I stood on my porch watching a mother and her child walk toward their apartment about 50 yards away. When they reached their steps, she started swatting his bare calves with a belt she had been carrying. I started walking down there and screamed at her to stop hitting him. She stopped. The child continued screaming and I called 911. In the 12 minutes it took a sheriff to arrive, she was trying to intimidate me by standing in front of me chest to chest while I was on the phone. She started coughing in my face and when I tried to turn around to walk away she followed and stepped on the backs of my flip-flops and continued coughing on me. While standing in front of me in the middle of the street, she stuck her tongue out at me and started "kissing" the air in front of me to try to get me to do what? I have no clue. I tried to back off and every step I took, she also took another step toward me. Throughout the 12 minutes, she commented that I didn't know what it was like to raise children, especially black ones...yes, she pulled the race card (little did she know, I have several exes who are African American). Many more things were said, but I won't bore you with those more than I'm already boring you now.

So anyway, the sheriff finally showed up and got her away from me. A second officer got there and interviewed me while the other interviewed this woman. Eventually, the sheriff came over to tell me the outcome of his conversation with the mother and the child. He said he "couldn't do anything because there were no marks." Okay, now I'll pull the race card in my head because if it was a white child, the marks would have been completely visible. This child had very dark skin. Granted if she hit him hard enough to leave welts, those should have been visible.

I guess my point here is, I tried to help a child who I witnessed getting swatted with a belt on bare skin and the police did NOTHING!

I don't like to see (or hear) people getting hurt. I have never heard screams like this in my life.

Was I wrong? Or is this just another reason for me to have a jaded view of authority?

Oh, did I mention the shirt I had on is a DU shirt that says "Our country is being by shitheads."

[Rich Hunt]

1. please

There is no excuse for abusing one's authority over a child. Abusive parents will use any excuse at their disposal.

You did the right thing.

My favorite excuse: "it's none of your business how I discipline my child."

As if children are nothing but property.

[toey]

3. thanks

the non-sheriff said i did the right thing, too. musta liked my shirt

[Iris]

4. And as if abuse and taking one's frustration out on someone weaker

is acutally "discipline".

[China_cat]

35. My neighbor once said that the only way

to get 'discipline' across to kids (he had gotten stuck with his 3 grandkids from hell) was at the end of the belt. Then he added that he had no idea of what discipline was until he joined the Navy.

Flummoxed him when I asked him how often they had to hit him while he was in the service. Said 'oh, they never hit me'. I then asked him if they didn't hit him, how did he learn discipline since that only came with a belt or a paddle.

[Iris]

52. doesn't logic hurt sometimes?

Last week, a columnist in my local paper said parents should get back to the root meaning of the word "discipline" - which means "to teach." A lot of people seem to think discipline and corporal punishment are the same thing.

[FreedomAngel82]

43. With disciplining kids

there's a right way and a wrong way. Especially if the child is young and can't defend themselves. What this mother was doing was obviously over boundries. I'm usually not the type to step in since I don't know the situation etc. but I think at the time being you did the right thing. Especially how the mother reacted towards you. That was just nuts. And what is with the kissing the air thing? :shrug: Never heard of that before. My aunt has whooped my cousin before but nothing like that. You have to and should discipline your kids but that sounded extreme.

[Iris]

53. discipline and corporal punishment are not the same thing.

Discipline means "to teach" - hitting someone is not teaching them anything except that violence is a way to solve problems. Or - whoever is bigger and stronger has all the power.

[H5N1]

6. Children and animals: if we don't stand up for 'em, nobody will!

[faithnotgreed]

38. dont forget the homeless the poor the elderly the....

if you dont have funds or power then you are not represented in truth

[Lorien]

61. ALWAYS.

You did the right thing, Toey.

[Iris]

2. If she treated you like that just imagine what daily life is like

for that child.

You did the right thing. I'm sorry it didn't work out the way you would have wished, but at least there is some record of this treatment now.

[goddess40]

5. You did the right thing - the sheriff is an idiot

I'm sure you made a good impression on that poor kid, he'll remember someone thought that he deserved not to get beaten.

People seem to think that just because they can produce offspring that doesn't make them a fit parent.

[toey]

7. the sheriff told me the child was making excuses for getting beaten

i feel so bad for her children...yes, there's another one who she left at home while she was outside my apartment beating the other one.

[goddess40]

9. did the bitch ever say what the kid did that was worth a beating?

The real answer is there is no way to justify it but she must have had some excuse that was good enough for her.

[toey]

12. It was time for dinner (8:30 p.m.) and he wasn't there

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

19. Firstly, I am so proud of you! You did the absolutely correct thing!

Secondly, it breaks my heart that kids will make up excuses for the abusive parents. These same children become enablers for other to take advantage of them as their lives go on.

Now maybe, is it at all possible for you once things quiet down, to talk to the Mom? Befriend her? Find out why she is so angry and must use violence? Maybe she needs some free time, something??? The cycle of abuse has to be stopped.

[toey]

24. she used the black thing a lot

and asked if i had children, in fact, the sheriff asked if i had children too as if by me not having children, it doesn't give me the right to stop someone from abusing a child in front of me

[Seabiscuit]

42. Hopefully when he's big enough to pull that belt out of the hands of

that bitch he'll remember you and let her know what could happen to her if she ever tries to hit him again.

[Silverhair]

57. The sheriff is NOT an idiot.

He followed the law. He can't make his own law.

1. He was in a situation where two people were giving him opposite stories. He needed EVIDENCE to be able to do anything. Without it, how can he act? As it was, it was word against word.

2. Also, since there were no marks on the child, it may have been completely legal. That's right - totally legal. If the corporal punishment was not up to a certain level of severity, it was probably legal.

Do you really want law enforcement making up their own laws on the spot? Think about it.

[goddess40]

58. He didn't look close enough

if you get hit in the legs by a belt there will be marks - they might only show up as bruises but it was his job to check it out all the way. He should have taken the kid in to be checked by a doctor.

[Silverhair]

59. If the marks aren't obvious, they don't count.

Sorry, but that is the way it is. The sheriff has to obey the law as it is. Do you really want them making up law on the spot?

I can sympathize with your anger. I have interfered three times to stop abuse of a small child.

Once all I did was stop what was happening at the moment.

The second time, different people, I was actually able to change the situation for the better.

The third time, again different people, I let the school know and they looked at the kid and called CPS. The woman took her kid out of school and began to homeschool her. The mother is a junior high drop out. She had the kid watch A-Beka tapes. The kid was out of school for two years. In Texas, that's legal. The kids don't even have to pass any kind of tests to prove that they are really being schooled. At this time the kid is now in an expensive private high school and home life is still hell.

Believe me, I understand your feelings. But the sheriff's hands are often tied by the law. You were wanting the sheriff to come in and make justice happen instantly. But the system doesn't work that way. And I am glad it doesn't. I don't want the cops to have the ability to make justice happen on the spot.

[toey]

79. I'm wondering if you'd feel the same way

If your purse/wallet was stolen, you saw the assailant, and by whatever means, it was returned to you and it was your word against the word of the person who stole your property, would you feel the same about cops taking action against this person. maybe they had a good reason for taking your property. It doesn't make it right.

[Silverhair]

83. Did you even read my entire post??????

Did you see where I have intervened three times? Did you see where I said I understood your feelings?

How I would feel has absolutely NOTHING to do with it. Law is NOT based on our feelings at a particular moment.

If someone stole some cash from me, and I called the law - I WOULD HAVE TO PROVE THE CASH WAS STOLEN. If I can't prove it was stolen from me, then the thief does indeed get to keep it. Can you understand that?

Child abuse has to be PROVEN. You may make the allegation all you want to, BUT THE LAW OPERATES ON PROOF.

Innocent until proven guilty. Have you ever heard of that? Or do you want the police to operate on the idea that anybody you say did something is automatically guilty?

An emotional reaction, which is what you are having, is NOT a substitute for reason and logic.

[Fridays Child]

8. Call child protective services and report her. The sheriff's department...

...may have already done so, but you can call, too.

[toey]

11. I think I'll do that, but our CPS sucks worse than the sheriff's dept.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

22. They may suck,

but you'll be making a record there, and if it happens again, you contact them again. And again. And again. And again.

If that mother thinks she knows everything about bullying, she ain't seen nothing yet. I invented it.

If there's anything I can help with, don't hesitate to PM me. I did a lot of guardian ad litem stuff when I was starting out years ago, and I know how these things work. You did a noble and brave thing, calling the cops and then standing your ground with her. If I were you, though, I'd watch my front door very carefully in the near future, because that's the kind of person who's liable to fill your lock with Crazy Glue.

Cover your ass, but, at the same time, take a bow. I wish there were more people like you out there.

[Fridays Child]

30. Most cps folks are overworked and underpaid...

...but at least you'll start--or add to--a paper trail on this woman. Thanks for standing up for the child when those around you probably just pulled their drapes shut and turned up their TVs.

:hug:

[renate]

21. Good point...

...get a paper trail started.

That poor little kid. Thinking of what his and his sibling's life must be like is just absolutely heartbreaking. Obviously the mother is in a lot of pain too, to be so angry (she sounds mentally ill, actually)--which I feel bad about, but it's so much sadder to think of those helpless kids being stuck with her. To be totally dependent on someone who hurts you... it's beyond terrible.

I'm so glad you came into that kid's life. A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step--you may not have been able to fix the situation last night, but you've taken the first step towards getting that family some help.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

10. So many people out there who would do anything to have a kid

and raise him in a loving and nurturing family. Just makes no sense.

Of course you did the right thing. Who can turn their back when they see someone hurting a child?

[histohoney]

13. Not wrong

and please do not assume the sheriffs dept. did nothing because of your shirt,(I be there are more that a few who might feel that way.) I don't know your local laws, but if it's a she said/ she said and the child defended the mother (sad, but it often happens for many reasons), physical proof would be all they had to go on.

I worked ER's for a long time and trust me I have seen lots of law enforcement hearts break for children and be equally frustrated by not being able to do more. They are not ALL the enemy.

Keep calling when you see something, that way they can get some paper work started on her, call CPS, get a file started. That mother and child need some serious help, that may get it started.

[Ladyhawk]

14. I stopped abuse in progress once and the mother got in my face, too.

I was younger and in better shape at the time and I really hoped she would hit me so I could hit her back. I am not a violent person. I haven't hit anyone since junior high, but she made me so angry. :shrug: She had been hitting a baby, then literally threw him into his car seat. The cops came and she DID get in trouble.

I can't believe the cops didn't do anything in the case you saw.

My father hit me with a belt all the time when I was growing up and yes, it hurts, both inside and out. It still hurts. If someone even picks up a belt, the muscles in my back tighten and I get an adrenaline rush.

What that mother did was horribly wrong.

Disclaimer: I just woke up with a splitting headache.

[SpiralHawk]

17. Abusers use denial all the time

It enrages them when they are called on their shit, and then they try to turn the tables. It is a sickness of the soul.

[gardenista]

15. Call Child Protective Services, and watch your back.

This woman sounds like a psycho.

[toey]

20. I made sure she was inside her apartment before I walked home

She lives in an apartment where there are no windows to view in my direction. The only issue i have is that its a one-way street and I have to drive by her to get to my apartment, so chances are she'll see me. maybe even fuck up my car, but still i think it was worth it

[Ladyhawk]

31. I hope she doesn't know where you live. :( :( :(

Apartment living can be scary. There were two fires within a year in the last apartment complex where I lived. One of them was set by a person with a vendetta. It gutted four apartments. The other fire was right next to my apartment, in the home of people with an abusive relationship. I'd called 911 on them at least twice, I think. The fire was caused by negligence and they were finally evicted. (When it broke out, I only had time to grab my bird and run.)

The lady you dealt with sounds seriously fucked up. Feuds in apartment complexes can be absolutely horrible. Proceed with caution, please!

P.S. Would it do any good to complain to the apartment managers, or would that just narrow down your location?

LH

[toey]

34. i could only leave a message with the apartment managers

i'll probably get a call bright and early monday morning

[Bmongilly]

16. Wow

It sounded like she had a few screws loose. You did the right thing, but those situations are very risky. I remember I was walking one day when I saw a man and woman arguing and the man struck the woman in her face with his fist. It was a slapping motion, but with a closed fist. I tried to jump in the middle of it to defend the woman and they both turned against me. I think I was lucky to have slithered away from that one, but it makes me wonder if the woman enjoyed it.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

25. Yes

Just in the past week, a man in suburban VA, outside DC, stepped up to intervene in an argument between and man and a woman - the man was pushing the woman around.

He got stabbed - by the man - and died. The woman took off with her girlfriends, didn't even stick around to see what happened. They caught both of them, though, and the stabber is in the slammer.

Cops will tell you that domestic disputes are - by far - the most dangerous. While applauding your courage and sense of outrage, I'd counsel you never to do that again - but, if you think it's serious enough, call 911.

[steve2470]

27. Great squirrel ! Unfortunately, there is a new rule for sig lines

i'll look for the link for ya.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=announcement&id=173

[toey]

29. i have an aluminum bat by the door that i considered taking with me

but after assessing that it was a woman approximately my size, i thought i'd be ok...next time, i hope there isn't a next time, i'll take my bat

[Kali]

37. yeah I was going to comment on the squirrel but the topic

was so serious I was going to try to find another post. Now I'll just slip in here and say - ditto on the cool squirrel but ... what happened to his tail?

[toey]

39. his tail must be that thing bouncing behind him....

maybe its in a bun...now quit f-ing up my thread!!!! :mad: :sarcasm:

[Kali]

55. sorry

sorry :blush:

Been there with the whole abuse/neglect violent family shit (Am guardian of my niece because of fucked up adults)

CPS around here is pretty shitty too, local sheriff is ok but limited manpower and large rural county.

You did the right thing, but watch your tires.

[steve2470]

18. Good for you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i cannot tell you how mad I get at those dummy parents who think hitting is the solution for everything.

[jillan]

23. I am so proud of you for calling!!!!

You did the right thing. And right now there is a child that thinks you are a hero!

[toey]

26. i actually got in between my other neighbor's when they were fighting

domestic issue, i just can't help but get involved when people are hurting.

[jillan]

32. Did they stop because of you??

Maybe you should be a social worker :toast:

[toey]

36. they did stop

haven't heard them fighting anymore since (been months, it was cold and rainy then). but i see they are still together. i told her if she ever needed anywhere to go, any time day or night, come get me, knock on my door, whatever. told her she didn't deserve to be treated that way and i think it did give her a bit of confidence, felt pretty good about that...social work...yikes! i'm going to school for psychology, i think....

[jillan]

40. toey....

:yourock:

[toey]

41. pirhana....

:toast: thanks!

[ignatius 2]

28. You should be proud that you stood up for a powerless child. The woman

sounds as if she needs some mental health help, if nothing else the cops should call protectiver services so that this family can be monitored.

Please do not feel ashamed for doing what was right.

[Ladyhawk]

33. I agree. You were very brave to do what you did.

After I stopped the abuse-in-progress, I was very concerned, hoping the young mother would get the help she needed. After I had calmed down, I realized that the baby probably wouldn't get help until the mother did. Yes, she needs help. My father needed help, but my parents would have denied that with their last breaths.

[eleny]

44. You've gotten good advice

Don't hesitate to call child protection, no matter how lousy you think they are. A few home visits to this woman might cause her to think twice before beating her kids. And keep a camera by your window if you have one handy. A few snapshots might do a world of good if you witness it again.

That woman's behavior toward you sure was strange. I'm glad she didn't use her belt on you.

[toey]

46. i wish she had used her belt on me

i'd've beat the ever livin shit outta her! i'm so not a violent person but when she coughed in my face, i reared my fist back...and then got control of it.

[DistressedAmerican]

45. I Stepped Up One Night When My Downstairs Neighbors Were Brawling

Literally the whole house shook for 45 minutes and I heard bookshelves falling etc. It was pretty messed up. Just as I decided to get involved the guy stormed out of the house and destroyed a relator's sign in the front yard (the landlord was selling the place) and them walked about a block up the street. I watched and suddenly he stopped turned around and rushed back in a rage to the house. I had never met the guy before. they had just moved in.

I grabbed my shoes and met him before he got back in the door. I am a big guy 6'4" and over 200 pounds. I was still pretty nervous. I read him the riot act. I told him that if I heard another peep EVER the cops would be there. Not me. He was a bit indignant but, eventually backed down and slinked back in.

I never heard a sound from that apartment again. Reported the sign destruction to my landlord. Not sure if he ever followed up on it or not.

It seemed to work. But, in future it will be the cops doing the talking. That was a bad and dangerous move on my part.

But like you, I could not sit by. The lady this asshole was living with was tiny. Must have weighed about half of what he did. She thanked me later. I'm not sure if he was beating her of just destroying the apartment. Didn't matter. I was sure if he hadn't gotten to beating her, it was coming. Especially when I saw him come storming back.

Not on my freaking watch.

Good For You!

[murray hill farm]

47. As scary as it now is...u did the right thing.

she may try to get back at you in some way...but most likely she will not....people like that woman need to be able to control who they abuse..smaller and more frightened than u are..and as confrontive as she was to you at the time, u did not back down from her and called the police. once she thinks this over...she will try to avoid you from now on..if she cannot avoid you, she may shout some nasty remarks, but she will be afraid of you for the most part. every time u see further abuse, call the police again...they will remember now...there is a record..there may have been record already of her abuse..we dont know that...but keep the paper trail going on her if you do see further abuse...just do it from the safety of some distance..do not confront her directly..let the police handle it. usually what will happen, is that she will move to a different place once she realizes that there are people like you in your apt complex will will report her...and good for you for doing it...because u cared.

[stray cat]

48. Welts/marks still present 24 hours later is defined as abuse

At least according to social workers in terms of calling it abuse. It took guts to call. Regardless of the outcome.

[Spock_is_Skeptical]

49. No, you were totally in the right- I would have called 911 as well.

[mdmc]

50. Our country is being by shitheads?

You did the right thing. While the cops didn't charge this mom with CPS / neglect, they did respond. Their response did two thing (besides disappoint you, :~)) - 1- made the mom aware that her actions have consequences. 2- let the kid know that there are people looking out for him and that he can get help in the future, if needed.

In NYS, all neglect allegations are investigated by social workers.

[Demoiselle]

51. You ABSOLUTELY did the right thing!

There's no way to be sure what the outcome would have been if you hadn't intervened...but you broke the rhythm of what sounds to me like a rapidly escalating tantrum (on the mother's part) and that was really good. If only everyone who witnesses such behavior would speak up and step in....we'd avert a good number of tragedies, I'll bet. Good for you. It takes a village and all that....

[tibbir]

54. Good for you!

My parents beat me with belts, boards, brushes - whatever was handy. I wish someone would have turned them in but this was in the 50's and they always did their work inside the house.

Don't let this mother or the authorities lack of response discourage you from doing what you know is right.

[Darth_Kitten]

56. You did the right thing.

My God, if I heard a blood curdling cry from a child, I'd be on the phone.

[Cats Against Frist]

64. What happens when it's your 4-year-old son, who you just told

that if he doesn't pick up his toys, in the living room, you're not going to turn on his Star Wars video??

Children throw tantrums, and they act like they're dying. Sometimes my son will throw a tantrum, and hit the wall or something, or flail, and hit his head and then, he'll be screaming and yelling "OWWWWWW!!! OWWWWWW!!!" Thank God my neighbors didn't think to call the cops, or they'd be at our house, once a week.

I hesitate involving CPS over certain things -- a child screaming, when I have no clue why they're screaming, maybe even an incident like this poster cited. Why? Because it is the poor and minorities, who are most visited by CPS. Most well-off white kids in secluded homes with thick walls, and parents whose reputation isn't questioned, because of their socioeconomic status aren't reported to CPS.

Before you call CPS, you have to think like CPS. CPS is mandated to come out to any report of abuse, within 24 hours, and is also expected to come, in reports of neglect, within a speedy time frame. The VAST MAJORITY of CPS reports are UNFOUNDED. Meaning that resources were wasted on a child screaming over a Star Wars movie, accidental bruises (that CPS people are trained to observe), slum vendettas, people who don't realize that corporal punishment is legal -- or even the way a person's yard looks. All of these things can cause family trauma, particularly for poorer families who do not have a support system, and have more hardships.

It feels good, I'm sure, in one's white skin, in one's privilege, to judge people, and declare oneself the savior of humanity -- but, while the cops were out visiting a single incident that didn't leave any marks, another child got strangled in a bathtub because of too heavy of a caseload, overworked CPS/DFS workers, and a reigning belief (thank god) that in-tact families, so long as they aren't outright life threatening to anyone, are still better than the pain and loss that a child would experience being separated from his or her mother or father, because of dominant societal mores.

I don't like spanking. I have spanked our son, one time, after he threw a nearly 4-hour tantrum, in which he REFUSED to pick up his toys from the living room. This was after a chain of time-outs, attempting to get him to stay in his room, and threatening to take away his toys. My boyfriend, his father, has spanked him twice. Every time, I bawled my eyes out, because of the conflict, in myself, between corporal punishment and other styles of conflict resolution.

I always envisioned myself being this cool, hip liberal parent, who would never spank, and "talk out" everything. Some children, however, for whatever reason, short-circuit coping skills. Maybe they were spoiled, maybe they were neglected -- I don't know. (I know that I didn't/don't neglect my son, because we play and snuggle and talk for hours on end, every day). However, no matter how rational children can be, at times, some simply have developmental problems coping with being told "no," or expressing their anger. This has frustrated me to NO END, as this otherwise bright, loving child, who is compassionate, sweet and personable can, when angered, or denied something, can turn into a tornado on wheels.

However, I come from a long line of control freaks with borderline personality tendencies. My parents were yellers, I'm a yeller, and my son is a yeller. My parents have loved and supported me for years on end. They also hit me (open-handed, and everywhere but the face), until the time I left home. They also gave me whatever I wanted, provided support, while sometimes making me feel very lonely and misunderstood, as a child. As an adult, they have supported me and my family, and are good old Southern Democrats, who live in the country, and shop at Wal-Mart. I am not traumatized by the hitting -- but I was traumatized about how my parents made me feel, because I was overweight, as a kid. No one called CPS to tell them that I thought I didn't deserve love. And my parents thought they were trying to help me. But we lived in a nice house, with a clean yard, and nice school clothes, and, of course, we're white.

But we're all just people. Shit happens. You can't social engineer your way out of everything. Calling in the authorities doesn't solve every problem -- and sometimes, exacerbates them. Corporal punishment is neither illegal, uncommon or necessarily adverse to healthy psychology. I know kids who were beaten, who turned out fine, and kids whose parents never laid a hand on them, and came out fucked up. I've worked in social services, and I know the waste that overreporting creates. I also know how white liberals and indignant, racist Republicans treat minorities, and make all kinds of calls, because a family is not up to snuff. I know how many of those cases go unfounded, because of knee-jerk reactionaries who think it's their civic duty to get involved in everyone's business. And I know that it's mainly minorities and poor people -- and not just poor people POOR MOTHERS who get their names in a case file, because some otherwise disinterested, "enlightened" party made a phone call.

Did the OP make the right choice? I don't know. I don't know that -- but if the cop showed any stand-offishness, or didn't otherwise jump on the paranoia train, it probably wasn't because of a T-shirt, it's because he probably wondered why the fuck he was called out to look at a kid who was just "beaten," who didn't have any marks on him.

Like, I said, though, there is always a part of me that says, "well, what if..." and I can't say what I would have done, or whether or not the OP did the right thing. I just know that I'd hate to be the person who got social services involved in someone's life, just because they think that corporal punishment is OK, or de-stabilized a family that was already struggling, by undermining a parent's confidence, or a family had minor, everyday problems that I wasn't privvy to, in my white, middle-class life.

[Darth_Kitten]

66. Yes, if I see violence against children I'm going to call.

I can differentiate between tantrums and abuse. :(

I don't need a lecture, thanks.

If I see what I believe is ABUSE I'm going to think about the victim of it and call in the authorities. And I don't give a damn what colour/race/gender/etc they are. I'm personally tired of people using excuse after excuse to get out of taking responsibility for their actions.

[Cats Against Frist]

67. You said "if I HEARD" a blood-curdling cry"

You didn't say anything about SEEING anything. If you don't think that a kid, throwing a tantrum, can't let out a blood-curdling scream, then you don't know too many kids. It was specifically, that statement, that caused the "lecture." I didn't say that people shouldn't call, under any circumstances. I said that people need to be careful not to overreact. A spanking, by any stretch of the law, or the imagination, is not abuse, that warrants the involvement of the authorities. Taking away toys and giving time-outs is not abuse that warrants a house visit, and humiliation, because a busy-body doesn't realize that kids scream for no good reason.

Remember, MOST kids -- though not homeschooled ones -- have exposure to teachers, school counselors, bus drivers, doctors, and lots of people who are MANDATED REPORTERS, and are trained to spot abuse. The "citizen arrest" is not necessary. That's not where children fall through the cracks. They fall through, because of an over-stretched, under-funded social service system that is wasteful, impersonal and adds to the problem.

Do you know what my clients were referred for, largely?

Homelessness
Sale of drugs or prostitution, within the home
Truancy
Abuse -- burning with cigarettes & curling irons
Abuse -- breaking a kid's arm
Abuse -- sexual
Failure to protect against abuse (usually mothers who are also abused)
Neglect -- leaving small children unsupervised for long periods, or not watching them, while parent was high
Environmental Neglect -- bathtubs with a 1-inch layer of filthy scum all over the tub & shower. Stinky, roach-infested apartments that stank of the rotting meat that was under the fridge. Children shaved bald from head lice.
Withholding medical treatment.

In the three years that I worked in social services not one child was referred for "receiving a spanking." Not even close. In fact, I saw DCFS and DFS close cases, immediately, after one visit, where it was clear that the "eyewitness" to the abuse had no idea what they were talking about, and either overreacted, held impossibly high and unrealistic standards of conduct for parents and children, or, basically, thought that the family was "low class."

If you have any doubts, please peruse the literature on the epidemic of false reporting and the damage that it can do to children and families, as well as the strain it places on the social service system. Here's some initial data, that, shows, with a little math, that 81 percent of all reports are deemed "unsubstantiated."

http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/programs/cb/publications/cm98/cpt3.htm

Richard Wexler, who is no right-winger, is head of an organization that is calling for an overhaul of the child welfare system, and he says the same thing that I did, in my other post:

Most CPS findings are based on neglect. Neglect is often the direct result of poverty. Instead of helping poor parents find employment, affordable housing and daycare, their children are placed in foster care or put up for adoption. The criteria for investigating and removing children blatantly discriminates on the basis of family size, income, ethnicity, religion, alternative lifestyle and education choices. All rights protected under the constitution are violated by CPS. While the poor are targeted more than any other class, CPS operates in such a way that any family, from any background, is vulnerable to the horror of intrusive investigations and violent child removals by agents of CPS. All it takes is an accusation.

http://www.childprotectionreform.com/

I'm not saying that people should never call -- though I think that anonymous reporting should come to an end -- but it sounded like, from your post, that you would be willing to call, over what you "think" might be abuse -- like a child letting out a scream. That, to me, is part of the problem, and further screws up the child welfare system, and endangers more children.


Edit: some right-wingers "think" that children who are fed vegetarian diets are being abused, and that children of homosexuals couples are being molested, or are in danger of being molested. What if these people knee-jerked, because of their "suspicions," and called in the cops? And wingnuts, despite their crowing, are only slightly less likely to call CPS than sheltered white liberals, with no children, and no experience with children.

[Darth_Kitten]

73. Sorry, you have your own agenda

and I am really not responsible for all the ills in society. Give me a break, please.

[Cats Against Frist]

74. So, so far, you've said that you're not responsible for societal ills,

nor do you care about government harrassment of the poor, AND you're tired of people playing "the race card" about everything...?

:wtf:

[Darth_Kitten]

75. YOU are saying that NOT me

Please stop projecting, you are reading what you want to in my post.

:eyes:

I would also suggest maybe stepping back from this issue a bit, since you are so ready to accuse people you don't know of bad intentions.

[Cats Against Frist]

76. Uh, these are direct quotes

"And I don't give a damn what colour/race/gender/etc they are. I'm personally tired of people using excuse after excuse to get out of taking responsibility for their actions."

"I am really not responsible for all the ills in society."

And...the iron here is astounding. The reason we're having this whole discussion is because YOU want to accuse people you don't know of having bad intentions, by calling the police and/or CPS to their house, when you have no clue what's going on.

I think you're the one who needs to step back, and realize that I am not attacking or accusing you of anything. I'm giving a perfectly rational, well-informed critique of your assertion that you would call CPS, if you heard a child screaming, and/or you would magically know the difference between a tantrum and abuse.

[Missy Vixen]

81. Generalization

>And wingnuts, despite their crowing, are only slightly less likely to call CPS than sheltered white liberals, with no children, and no experience with children.<

I'm a "sheltered white liberal", I suppose, since we have no children. At the same time, I am a former nanny.

The neighbors across the street have a four-year-old who is capable of the loudest screaming I've ever heard. We hear this child screaming when she's put to bed across the street while our bedroom window is closed. After determining that the child was not being hurt (and is, from all observation, well cared for,) we didn't call CPS. She's strong willed and has quite a temper, but her parents aren't hurting her. We did call CPS, however, on another neighbor over their children. It was very obvious to the casual observer that abuse was happening in the home.

I believe that anonymous reporting serves an important purpose. People on the whole don't care to be retaliated against for alerting the authorities to a dangerous situation.

Julie

[toey]

78. For the record...

I did SEE the abuse, it was not just me hearing the screaming that provoked me to call the police. The screaming provoked me to open my door and witness a mother swatting her child with a belt on bare calves.

I made no judgments of this woman or her life as I DO LIVE IN THE SAME NEIGHBORHOOD. I am just as "poor" as she is. I was just not about to sit by and do nothing. Nor would I sit by and do nothing if I saw you perhaps in a grocery store parking lot getting beaten, raped, or something worse.

Do not assume the child was not in danger. You were not there and do not know the facts and I am offended by your post.

By the way, I was minding my own business until she brought her business to my front door by beating her child there. I'm glad she did it in front of my door as opposed to someone else's who wouldn't have had the guts to step in and do something.

[spuddonna]

72. Oh geez, I would have needed to get sound proof windows then!

My daughter shrieked so loudly when she was 3-4 during her 'throw self on ground, pound floor, shriek in unholy terror' phase, that if a blood-curdling shriek was all it took to get the CPS involved, I'd have a casefile inches thick.

My sister-in-law witnessed this (has three kids of her own) and even commented on how horrible the yelling was. She witnessed it firsthand one night when I had told my daughter no videos, time for bed, and dd fell to pieces, had a stomping tantrum. I stood by, arms folder waiting for it to end, my sis in law came running in because she was convinced my daughter had gotten hurt.

But I would still advocate, as a neighbor, checking in and saying 'is everything ok'? in cases like mine. Our neighbors did, got to know us, and I invited them to watch the temper tantrums because 1) it showed the neighbors what we had to deal with (lol) and 2) tended to diffuse the temper tantrum quickly, at least for my daughter - she seemed to be embarrassed by the 'audience'.

Just my 2 cents...

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. Now now the Sheriff may or may not be right

depends on the state, but you can and probably should call CPS, as much of a joke they can be in some states... if you want to get that involved

[kestrel91316]

62. Point #1 - You did the ABSOLUTELY right thing.

#2 - This woman is a serious whack job, to the point of being dangerous. If it is possible to move, consider doing so. Watch your back.

#3 - My theory of why she did the coughing thing on you - maybe she has TB and was trying deliberately to infect you. Please consult a doctor to look into this.

[jbnow]

63. Good for you

You have guts. I hope she doesn't hassle you, but I know you can't ignore the screams of a child.

Whenever I hear of a child being hit I flash back to when my kids were young. I learned they publicly spanked kids at school. I went there and talked to the principal. My first issue was they were not allowed to hit my kids. If they ever wanted to, call me and we'd deal with it another way.
He assured me it would never be my kids. I assured him my kids acted up sometimes, they weren't perfect, but he still couldn't hit him. Then I began to talk about what I thought of the school policy.
He told me I was making too big a deal of it and I shouldn't worry because the kids they spanked all got beaten at home anyway, this was nothing to them.
We stared at each other. I asked if he heard what he said. he nodded and had the grace to blush and say maybe they should reconsider the policy. Maybe?

The principle was my neighbor, a very nice man and hearing the blase comment that the kids get beat at home anyway just made me sick.

Now my mind shifts another way. I lived in an apartment complex in Boulder for a while. When something happened people showed up pronto.A couple examples... A man was screaming at a woman in the parking lot and hit her...men came running from several apartments to stop him and several police cars were there within minutes.
I heard a neighbor screaming once. By the time I quickly dressed and got to the door there were several people there, turned out to be a kitchen fire which they promptly handled.
Life should be that way but it isn't. I've never seen that anywhere else. If the child was hit there that way you wouldn't have been out there alone.

I've confronted abusers a couple times in personal life (and worked with them professionally) but my post is long enough. Thank you for caring enough and though the kid made excuses for the mom...he knows someone cared enough to try to stop it.

[buddysmellgood]

65. You did the right thing, and more than most would. The police see so

much worse. Don't blame them.They work within the framework we give them.

[all.of.me]

68. you did the right thing.

good for you. that is courageous. i can't believe this woman was treating you that way. it's just in her nature to be an idiot. that poor child.

but now it's on the record that a call was made. if it happens again, that will show up and not look good. keep on her. maybe the next cop will have a little compassion.

[MikeNY]

69. Mentally ill you did the right thing n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

70. I don't normally use crude language, but WTF?

The mother objected to your intervening because "you didn't know what it's like to raise black children"?

Who's doing the racial stereotyping around here?

Judging from your account, that mother has serious anger issues bordering on nutcase. I hope there's some relative around somewhere who can get those kids out of the house.

[derby378]

71. You should have filed assault charges

Not on the child's behalf, but on your own. That would get her behind bars for at least one night.

[flvegan]

77. That was my first thought. Battery charges if she so much as bumped you.

Plus, she now has the beginnings of a pattern of violence towards others. Next time she beats her kid and someone complains, she's already got the tag on her. They may look a little closer.

[titoresque]

80. Haven't had time to read thru this thread so if

this has already been stated I apologize.
CPS is bullshit! Those people are either outright neglectful in their own jobs or they have so much red tape to cut thru that they are unable to do much! My guess is both.

There is a woman that lives down the street from my mom. She's a known drug addict. Tweaker to be exact. She has 5 children. She's been investigated by CPS atleast 10 times that we know of in the past 6 years. Most recently her youngest daughter who is 8yrs old came to my moms house late at night with another little girl from the neighborhood and asked for money because they had no electricity. Now, we live in Az. last week we had 112-114 degree weather. They have an empower box, which is a pay-as-you-go electricity meter. So my mom took them down to SRP and put some money on their card. She then went to the store and bought them some food.
All the while this little girls whore of a mother was at home crashing and asleep from day's of drug use. The mother had no idea that her 8yr old was gone,not that I think she would have cared anyhow.
So my mom called the police, a police officer came over.....blah,blah,blah. He couldnt do anything for whatever reason and said that he would talk with his Sarg. and look into it.
My mom called CPS.....the bitch on the phone said that since my mom had bought electric and dinner for them that night, they were in no immediate danger and that CPS could do nothing but "we will look into it"
Next day we discovered that, not only did they have no electric but they had no water either and had not had any for weeks!!!
Mother was still asleep.....thru all this.
Next day (this is TWO day's later now) Cop comes over, the kids try to lie and protect mother and say she isnt there. Cop goes in and the house is...his words "OMG! I could not believe anyone would live in these conditions!" Mother is STILL asleep, he shines his flashlight right in her face and she didnt even flinch.
He took statements from the kids, asked questions and left.
Mother never knew he even came over.
The Whore called my mom later......told my mom "you are ruining my life!"
Geeez, these people are in serious denial.
Next day police surround the house, search the house, take statements......rough up a couple teenagers who got mouthy and then left. Nothing happened to that bitch! And they still have no water or food!
CPS to this day has never gone over to check on them!

Disgusting! Pathetic!
If it were me..in your situation I would have gone to jail! I would have spit in that bitches face! It's good you stuck up for that child...if the mother is behaving this way in public can you imagine what she's doing in private?!

[Pithlet]

82. You did the right thing.

That poor kid :(