The last vestige of "rationalized" war support: "It was noble"

[stevietheman]

The so-called "tipping point" has been indicated by the polling. Roughly 3 out of 5 Americans don't like how things are going in Iraq.

But there's yet another tipping point to come: Removing the final rationalization behind this war. Passing that tipping point is what will finally drive the war support numbers down as far as they can go.

Following are the four main arguments against this war, the first three of which we have already been successful at arguing:

Illegal: This has been amply demonstrated by documentation, such as the Downing Street memo, and it could even be argued before we knew of such documentation. Congress was lied to. We violated international agreements. And so on, and so on.

Unjustified: "WMDs and mushroom clouds" were the #1 stated purpose behind the war. Everyone, including rabid right-wingers, knows the truth now. All of Bush's pre-war justifications have vanished into a puff of air. Iraq posed no threat to the U.S.

Immoral: The death and destruction has always made this arguable. But then, the death and destruction combined with no justification for war, combined with losing so many of our finest, combined with the ongoing struggles of the Iraqi people, make this _easily_ arguable. The Iraqi people clearly want our occupation to end, yet the soldiers remain, triggering more and more pain for the people there. Nothing moral about this.

Ignoble: A successful argument here will be the straw that will break the backs of right-wingers and blinkered sycophants who still support the President and his war. This is what will finally dilute the Kool-aid. The question is--How do we make this argument without appearing to love Saddam? After all, wasn't it "noble" to remove a ruthless dictator who savaged his own people?

This is how we make the argument that the war was ignoble:

1. Acknowledge that the _idea_ of removing a genocidal evil dictator is noble. Acknowledge that Saddam was and is the scum of the Earth. No question. However, naked aggression against a country we've already proven was no threat to the U.S. was not the only approach we could take to eventually see Saddam gone. In fact, our policies before the war were largely keeping his aggressive behavior in check.
   
2. State that historically the U.S. has never had the _official_ policy of removing foreign leaders by invasion who were not a direct and immediate threat to the U.S.
   
3. State that the U.S. does not and never has had a singular "divine right" to clean up the harsh regimes of the world. The U.S. is a republic, not an empire.
   
4. State the hypocrisy of removing Saddam, but not dealing with other harsh regimes. We can name Cuba, China and North Korea as examples that approach this hypocrisy from different angles. This is also where the "war for oil" arguments (if well crafted) can drift in.
   
5. State that it's wrong for America to basically cut off its nose to spite its face. America killed thousands and thousands of Iraqis... so that Saddam wouldn't? This makes America look noble? That we denied the evil Saddam to kill his people, while we, the supposed "good ones", did the killing? We must stress that this does not make us look noble in the Arab/Muslim world.
   
6. State that ultimately, it was up to the Iraqi people and the Arab community to determine what to do with Saddam. The right-wingers argue about "states' rights" in this country, but when it comes to the sovereignty of other nations and regions, their intellectual gears slip.
   

We must emphatically state that the "happy thought" of removing a vile dictator does not make this war noble. To think something is noble without looking at the entire situation, with the tremendous death and destruction, and how our actions are viewed in the world, is to display a superficial understanding of what is really noble. Laying waste to a country and its people to take down one man... just try to keep that image in your head while mouthing the word "noble"... and try not to throw up.

Foreign policy and defense of this nation cannot rest on the kind of happy thoughts... er, naive thinking... that the U.S. somehow "performed a service" for the Iraqi people, while denying all the other facts of this war. We as human beings cannot have the noble thought of "oh, wouldn't it be a good thing to remove this serial killer from our midsts", and then proceed to the destroy the city we think he is in to find him.

We must tell the right-wingers: "With this war, the nobleness ended as soon as the original happy thought was processed."

In summary, to move a lot closer to ending this big mess we're end, we must forcefully make the final argument that THIS WAR WAS IGNOBLE.

[speedoo]

1. Superb, outstanding, wonderful post.

Thankyou. I hope lots of people read and digest this.

Nominated.

[Village Idiot]

2. Good post, except for number 2...

2. State that historically the U.S. has never had the _official_ policy of removing foreign leaders by invasion who were not a direct and immediate threat to the U.S.


You were kidding about this one, right?

[stevietheman]

5. No, but if it's a matter of phrasing, please offer an alternative. n/t

n/t

[firefox]

3. Imperialistic

The war is not an isolated development. We have 50 years of the defense/offense department spending more than any other country. Now we spend 10 times more than the UK that is in second place. The keyword of our times is "Empire". Iraq was just an imperialistic war for oil and treasure and an even stronger military position against the world.

[gratuitous]

4. You have clearly forgotten

The infallibility of God's own instrument, George W. Bush, which trumps all of your picayune "points" about whether this invasion was illegal, immoral or fattening. It is most certainly not fattening, as it burns far more calories than it consumes!

There. I've run rings around you logically.

[stevietheman]

6. I'm not offering arguments to convince the crazy--they can't be helped. nt

n/t

[Teena]

7. God's own instrument?

gratuitous - I do hope you are joking. We are, each of us, God's instrument. In spite of what he wants people to believe, George Bush does not have any more right to order the deaths of other human beings and the destruction of sovereign nations. And he certainly has not convinced the majority of the world's people - yes, we live in a world, not just a country - who know instinctively that his motivations are evil and that he must be stopped. Bush knows this as well, which would explain his extraordinary level of security everywhere he goes. If he really thought that what he is doing to this world was God's will, he would trust solely in God to protect him.

[stevietheman]

9. I think is what gratuitous is inferring...

that many of Bush's supporters cannot be persuaded by rational argument.

We can assume this is true.

However, I don't think we've gotten as far as we have by arguing about the "church crazies"... instead, our progress has come through persistent rational argumentation and the harsh facts on the ground in Iraq.

There must still be some war supporters we can eventually turn around... this is my hope anyway.

[gratuitous]

10. I thought the Monty Python tagline would be the tip-off

Yes, my post was indeed sarcastic and -- dare I say it? -- gratuitous (ba-dump bump!). However, from what I've heard and read around the internets (another teeny, tiny joke there), there is a rather significant and irreducible segment of our population that regards George W. Bush as ordained by God Almighty as the very man to lead our great nation through these troubled times. Peggy Noonan seems to be the ideological mother of these people.

Unfortunately, far from being an isolated and quarantined people, they walk freely among us, and while their peculiar brand of delusion isn't communicable in its full-blown virulence, it does seem to color a lot of our national discourse. As such, I find a little exposure to its full strength is sufficient to expose them, and to set otherwise good-hearted people to thinking properly, rather than be unconsciously infected by their contagion.

[punpirate]

8. Lessee...

noble:

4. of an exalted moral or mental character or excellence; lofty: a noble thought.
5. admirable in dignity of conception, manner of expression, execution, or composition: a noble poem.

Seems the evidence proves otherwise.

Now, the antonym:

ignoble:

1. of low character, aims, etc.; mean; base: his ignoble purposes.
2. of low grade or quality; inferior.


Yup, the dictionary concurs.

[mike_c]

11. excellent post, but I have one quibble....

I disagree with the demonization of Saddam Hussein. Yes, he was despotic. Yes, he used an iron rule to maintain some semblence of national unity in an artificial country that had relatively little internal coherence. Yes, he did some bad things during his rule, but it was a very difficult job that was consistently made harder by U.S. intervention into Iraq's affairs, all the way back to Husseins elevation to power itself, but in particular during the Iran-Iraq war, it's post war economic collapse, and the post-Gulf War international sanctions years.

Still, Hussein was not unique in any of those attributes, as you acknowledged, and there is a disquieting hypocrisy in condemning his actions-- to the point of invasion and destruction of the nation of Iraq-- while not only tolerating similar actions by other despots but actually assisting them when they serve U.S. interests, just as we once assisted Hussein.

But all that aside, Saddam Hussein kept the lights on and the water flowing where the Americans, with all their vaunted technological abilities, have failed utterly. He rebuilt Iraqi cities after the Gulf War bombing campaigns in remarkably short time. Under Saddam Hussein, Iraq was a secular nation with one of the highest standards of living in the region. It had a literate, well educated and prosperous population. The state provided excellent medicial care.

Vilifying Saddam Hussein will always provide a shred of justification for the war against Iraq, even if an irrational one. His removal from power will always be recognized as "the one good thing that came of it" even by people who decry the inordinate cost of achieving it.

But the truth is that removing Saddam Hussein was NOT good for Iraq, and leaving him in power, albeit with some international oversight via the U.N., would have been far better for the Iraqis than the situation they now face as a direct consequence of our having removed him. Even that minor justification for the invasion is false, yet demonizing Hussein gives it some macabre life.

[opihimoimoi]

13. Indeed, the War is a front for an oil grab, rising prices, and will be

repeated in Iran for the same reasons..

The Publikaners want it all. Soon, they will get those Saudis too.

[GoBlue]

12. Noble: dignified, gracious, fine, decent, righteous, good, splendid

(Antonyms: base, debased, degenerate, degraded, ignoble, low)

[alfredo]

14. If our goals were noble, why are we dividing up the spoils between

political friends of the president and vice president.

[stevietheman]

15. You're right... your statement should be #7 on the list. n/t

n/t

[alfredo]

16. If the cause was noble, it would be self-evident. There would be

no need to sell the concept.

[stevietheman]

17. Except that there are many people left still arguing "noble". n/t

n/t

[alfredo]

18. And there always will be because they have a stake in

believing Iraq was a noble cause, just like those who still believe the Domino Theory.

[GreenPartyVoter]

19. Thanks for this. Wish I had had it handy when I wrote this blog

today. :)

http://www.livejournal.com/community/thought_express/12179.html

[stevietheman]

21. That list of "historical facts" looks to be easily...

deconstructible. In short, the way the country was lied into Iraq was wholly a new enterprise and there was no justification for the conflict, unlike many conflicts on that list. It still amazes how right-wingers continue to just not get it (or they get it, and like to confuse simpletons with revisionist or half-story historical snippets).

[GreenPartyVoter]

23. I have had to very scary fantasy-land emails like that this year that

get forwarded on because they make people feel good. They never stop to think about if they are true or not. But hey, there's dates. There's quotes. Must be TRUE!

[Kire]

20. This is America, we don't have nobles.

[stevietheman]

22. Hey everyone... I'd be happy to treat this as a "wiki" article

In other words, help me rewrite it to the point where I could shop it around for publishing at SmirkingChimp, HuffPo and other spots.

I'm very open to suggestions. The more I've thought about this, the stronger I believe that this kind of article is the path to remove any last vestige of "rational support" for this war.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. latest talking point

this is about the emancipation of woemn, I shit you not