which is better: Tipping Waiters, or Paying them better & No Tipping?

[mopaul]

[wtmusic]

1. Tipping

if they give you lousy service they get paid less

[ClassWarrior]

54. Paying them better. Restaurants would be forced price honestly.

And like any human being, a waitperson has a responsibility to do the job to the best of his or her abilities - tip or not.

NGU.

[wtmusic]

59. What is pricing "honestly"?

Restaurants price to maximize their profits, period. There is nothing honest or dishonest about where they choose to set their prices.

You can say that waiters have a responsibility to their best job, but in that industry service is key, and there is a large clientele. A large part of their product is not overseeable by management. That's why tipping works and why it will stay that way.

[SoCalDem]

2. Both?

:)

[Cornus]

3. Decent wage - no tipping

It would make it so much easier for everyone if everyone were paid a decent wage and dispense with ALL tipping.

[tx_dem41]

4. Tipping....if they're good they should make at least 10.00 extra..

per hour based on added tips alone.

[seabeyond]

5. speaking as a waitress, i like htose tips. especially in reno

nv. work 4 hours 5 days a week,....wow. i made a lot

[calico1]

6. Better pay.

A lot of people stiff wait staff. So they can't depend on tips.

[Cleita]

7. Having been in the restaurant business myself, it is impossible

to pay servers big wages. The price of your food would be enormous, which is why the tipping system began. However, I think that a service charge should be added to the tab and tipping eliminated. This way the server gets paid a living wage for work done. The restaurant owner doesn't go broke or have to charge exorbitant prices for a hamburger and the customer knows what is expected of him. A few places are trying this. I hope it catches on.

[mopaul]

8. which state was it that just passed the service charge law? N.Y.?

caught the story but forgot the state

[progressivebydesign]

9. There's an upscale restaurant here that includes the tip in the bill..

. that way everyone in the staff gets a piece of it. It's not overly popular with diners, but it hasn't turned any biz away.

[H5N1]

10. I don't like that. I tip BIG for good service...

the service need not be awesome... just good.
Likewise I tip very little for really bad service.

[Cleita]

15. The problem is that there aren't many like you out there.

Sometimes the most demanding customers leave small tips. Demanding customers take time from servers that they could be giving better service to others customers. However, a well trained server should be able to give all his customers outstanding service at all times.

If you have bad service you should tell the management so they can correct the problem and put the server through further training. You should never have to pay for bad service, especially if you are charged for it on your bill. In that case the management could choose to comp the service charge on your bill.

[LostinVA]

24. In Europe, there's often a service charge, AND you can tip

if the service is really exceptional. I've done this while I've been in Germany and the UK. Conversely, you can often complain if the service was bad.

[bunkerbuster1]

37. I always thought that made the most sense.

Same deal in Switzerland. You might leave an extra franc or two; more if the service was exceptional.

I know why they don't do this in the States--too much like ensuring a decent wage! can't have that!

[SammyWinstonJack]

26. I tip 20% of the total even if the service wasn't great, anyone can

have a bad day, and here in Texas wait staff hourly wages are disgraceful.

[ret5hd]

13. what diff does it make to you...

if you call it a service charge or add it to the price of the burger? kinda reminds me of those 'airport fees' and 'fuel surcharges' the airlines tack onto the ticket...it's ALL coming from the same pocket, and that burger is still gonna cost me $2 more than it did yesterday (except that i am always a good tipper).

[Cleita]

17. Tipping is really not a good way to compensate for work done.

It means the worker is at the mercy of the customer, who can and often do choose to the stiff the worker. I don't think you would find it acceptable at your job.

If you were a plumber, what if your boss left your wages to be paid by the customer, whatever they wanted, and only charged for parts and travel time?

[ret5hd]

22. oh, i agree a 100% but i think you missed my point...

you said:
Having been in the restaurant business myself, it is impossible
to pay servers big wages. The price of your food would be enormous, which is why the tipping system began. However, I think that a service charge should be added...

my point was:
what difference does it make to you (or the customer) whether you add it to the price of my food or call it a service charge?

[Cleita]

28. It shouldn't. But as some of the posts on this thread show, people

erroneously think what they tip will give them better service. It's just not true. If they get bad service, they should complain to the management. Restaurants expect their servers to give competent service to everyone, not just the good tippers. Frankly that only works in taverns.

[yewberry]

44. It makes a difference to the staff.

Unfortunately, if a service charge is added, that money frequently goes into the operating budget and not to the servers.

I'd rather work in a place where I can keep the tips I make rather than have them go to paying the salaries of the kitchen and management. Yes, the higher hourly pay would make a big difference (federal minimum for servers=$2.63 an hour) but the potential loss is too great.

[wtmusic]

35. Not analogous

The problem is that it's nigh impossible for a restaurant manager to keep tabs on who's getting good service and who isn't. Tipping makes the waiter directly responsible to the customer, and service benefits.

Without it, bad service results in a lost customer for the restaurant, and only rarely bad feedback about the waiter. Every restaurant I have been to which required a 15% mandatory tip the service has been lacking.

A waiter is compensated at least minimum wage and that is for service--not for food, or "parts and travel time"...

[yewberry]

38. "A waiter is compensated at least minimum wage"

I don't want to be challenging or anything, but I wanted to make sure that you know that the federal minimum wage for servers is $2.63 an hour. Some states have higher hourlies for servers, but some don't.

$2.63 an hour is generally enough to cover the taxes on tips, so a two-week paycheck is usually around $0.

(When I've had lots of $0.15 paychecks, I'd wait about six months to deposit them, so I could add them all up and break a buck. It's kind of embarassing.)

[Sgent]

49. Federal Min Wage is 5.15

The amount that waiters are paid is 2.63. However, if they don't make 5.15/hr over the course of a week, then the company must up the pay to at least 5.15/hr.

[yewberry]

52. Yes, minimum wage & minimum compensation aren't the same thing.

Oops, federal minimum wage for tipped employees is $2.13, not $2.63.

You're absolutely right, minimum compensation must be reached with a combination of wages and tips.

Honestly, I've never seen it come up; I waited tables for years and never saw it happen because tips always covered the difference. Realistically, the wages are only there (from a server's point of view) to make it convenient to pay taxes on the tips--though I always felt silly getting null paychecks for two weeks of work.

[Cleita]

50. Really, which restaurants were those? You really need to

complain. Most restaurants will comp you a meal if you are dissatisfied with anything. If a manager can't keep track of his staff then he's not doing his job. Even if he is sitting back in an office, most restaurants have cameras trained on various areas of the restaurant to keep tabs.

Even if there is a mandatory tip, if you feel you have had outstanding service, there is nothing to stop you from adding a dollar or two. I think most restaurants allow this leeway.

[stillcool]

11. having worked both sides of this fence.....

I have to say, the most secure i've ever felt in the biz was when working at country clubs where the 17%tip is included in the bill and the staff works for a decent hourly wage. It was one of the few places where health insurance was available and my salary was not so erratic.

[Cleita]

18. This is the way it should be and could be if the arbitrary tipping

custom was eliminated and a service charge put in its place.

[AngryAmish]

12. Tipping

Incentivizing good service

[mopaul]

14. couldn't you have a questionaire asking how your service was?

that way, if there were compliments, a person would get a raise eventually, or if they received a lot of complaints, they'd be replaced or learn to work better.

but for the record, i always tip, i've never been mad enough to not leave any tip.

[AngryAmish]

23. I don't fill out questionaires

I'm the bizarro-world Mr. Pink.

[Cleita]

27. Good service should be expected when you patronize any

eatery. A well trained serving staff should give you outstanding service at all times. Restaurants rely on it for return business. If you get bad service complain to the management but don't pretend to insure it by leaving or withholding a tip.

[Pithlet]

16. I would think better pay

I've never waited tables though, so my opinion probably isn't as educated on this issue. As a customer I would have no problem with the tip automatically added.

[Cleita]

21. From the restaurant's point of view, even with reservations, you

can't guarantee the number of customers per day to patronize your establishment. Holidays, days of the week, and other variables enter into the equation. Yet, you still have to be prepared to have every table filled during lunch and dinner hours, meaning that if the clientele doesn't materialize you have a wait staff on your hands twirling their thumbs that you have to pay.

That is why even top scale restaurants only pay minimum wage to their servers. If they didn't then they would have to jack up the price of the food to make up the difference for slow days. As it stands now, the servers will make up the difference with tips or so the expectation is. If a service charge is added, then everyone is happy. If the customer is dissatisfied with the service, he needs to make a complaint with the management. The management can then decide to return the service charge to the customer.

[ToeBot]

19. There are situations where servers make significantly more ...

than the salaried or wage-rate staff, but it is the exception. Also, there are too many variables, such as location, average cover price and clientele make-up, to make an easy generalization. But in a high end, tourist heavy location, servers will make allot from tips. In a mid priced local dining establishment, most servers would do better with a better salary.

[ultraist]

20. The majority of resturaunts are owned by big corps

And for those that aren't, resturaunt owners usually are very wealthy. It seems to me, that the servers get the smallest piece of the profit.

Companies should be required to pay every employee a living wage but at the same time, tipping should remain at 20%.

Consider the average wage of waiters is way below the median income and it's apparent who is profiting and who is being exploited.

[Cleita]

25. Then I hope you plan on eating at home from now on because

a living wage before tips or a service charge for servers would make your restaurant food very expensive. They will pass the cost on to you.

[ultraist]

29. The owners, usually big corps wont be able to pass on ALL costs

to the customer or they would lose their customer base. They will have to find a balance. Perhaps the CEOs of the big corporate chains will have to take a small cut in their enormous salaries to keep the businesses profitable.

Wait staff national average wages are only 16k. There is something terribly wrong with a system, in the wealthiest nation in the world, whereby individuals work full time, yet still cannot afford to feed their families. EVERYONE in our country should have the opportunity to work and provide for their families, whether they are college educated or not.

[Cleita]

33. If a 15% or even 20% service charge was added instead of

tips it would provide guaranteed recompensation for the workers that would be a living wage and sometimes much more in your upscale restaurants providing the restaurant was a successful one. If they add health care it could be done. However, with your way, the product would be very expensive and if they had to lower prices, that would cut into profits. You know what corporations do to unprofitable shops? They cut their losses and close them.

With your business model, which would work in other businesses, but not this one, restaurant eating would become a luxury few could afford, which means all those jobs would be lost. The way it's done now works. Adding a service charge would address those concerns you have and would be the best way to do business all the way around and for everyone involved, restaurant owner, worker, and customer.

[ultraist]

39. Owners would have to find a balance

You offer an all or nothing scenario. A large majority of restaurants could afford to pay a living wage without jacking up the prices too much, and still leave room for tips. Again, this would cut somewhat into their profits.

The National Assoc of Restaurants, which largely represents OWNERS, opposes increasing waiter wages. They give Republicans, who like to exploit laborers and cater to the wealthy, very HIGH RATINGS. IMO, this is a pretty good indicator that things are very skewed toward the very wealthy, as is the case, with most businesses.

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_detail.php?sig_id=003508M

[Cleita]

42. I'm not a Republican, but my husband owned his own restaurant

for ten years, which I managed, and I have worked in the accounting offices of those corporations you speak of. The restaurant business is very risky, and that is the reason why many become wealthy, but just as many go under the first year they are in business.

Your model would practically eliminate the mom and pop operations like ours. Why? Because large corporations can buy and store supplies in bulk, which the mom and pops can't do. I think most servers would agree to a guaranteed service charge on checks as contrary to the hit and miss charitable contribution of tips.

Also, if a server racks up $500 in a two hour lunch period, which is easy enough if lunch averages $10 a customer, he gets $75 in tips at 15% if everyone tips. Since I am working on a four hour lunch although it's usually done in two hours that is $18.75 an hour in addition to the minimum wage the establishment is required to pay.
That's a living wage and I don't think they would do as well on salary as you suggest.

Of course the busier and upscale restaurants would yield more revenue. Servers actually compete for jobs at the busier restaurants that have a reputation for good tips. I had a group of waiters from Chasen's in Beverly Hills, at the time a very ritzy eatery, that has since closed its doors. They would come slumming to our our place after work for a beer and hamburger.

Most of the waiters were European or sons of restraunteurs where the job is passed down from father to son. Many of the Europeans got to LA working in fancy cruise ships and stayed to work in the industry here. If they didn't make a minimum of $500 in tips, it was a bad night. The work was a profession and very specialized, being the waiters did a lot of the cooking and food preparation for the chefs. One of my servers, who was a good worker in my place, got a job there and lasted one night because he didn't know what he was doing.

So in business, one size doesn't fit all, but there should be ways to pass the profits on to the workers as you suggest, you just can't bankrupt the business to do it.

[eeyore]

30. Tipping is better for the servers.

Servers generally only report a fraction of the tips they earn, thus giving them a whole lot of cash under the table. I used to report about 10-25% of my tips to the feds. That left me with a decent wage that made up for lack of job security and health insurance.

Everything is cool as long as you don't get audited, but even then, as long as you've kept a daily tip book of your "earnings", they have no way of proving what you've made. It can get sticky, though, if the feds decide to audit the whole restaurant. They have been known to look through credit card receipts to tally up the average tips. Realistically, though, the feds don't have the staffing power to deal with the underground economy.

If at all possible, just tip in cash - that way no one's the wiser, and your server can actually earn a living wage without fear of being audited.

-eeyore

[ultraist]

31. I always try to tip in cash

I usually pay the bill with a credit or debit card but I try to leave the tip in cash so that the server doesn't have to either wait for their pay (some resturaunts hold all tips until pay day) or declare it.

If you use a credit card for the tip, there is no way the waiter can NOT declare it. Resturaunts track that because THEY can get audited.

[Cleita]

46. That must have been a long time ago because the IRS

required that you take taxes on 8% of the bills for each server even if they didn't make 8% in tips in the early '80s. (It happens.) Of course the servers were supposed to turn in the amount of their tips each day. They managed to always make it 8% :-), but when they didn't make it, they still had to pay taxes on it. Wouldn't it be better if they got the money in a service charge that they deserved even if they had to pay PR taxes?

[Touchdown]

32. I have no easy answer for this.

Bartenders in a downtown dance club can pull in $700-1200 on a Saturday Night. Bartenders in a small farmtown country club make $19 a night, because those stingy white farmboy cheapskates in Burlington Colorado thought that my tits weren't big enough!:grr:
BTW: I am a male.

[ultraist]

34. Your personal experience does not reflect the big picture. Women earn less

http://www.csuchico.edu/womyn/work/4-eqpayday.shtml

Because women working full-time are paid significantly less than men, on average, they must work nearly two full additional days -- or 38.6% more -- to earn what men receive for a five-day week. Annually, this means that after working a full 4.5 extra months, by Monday, May 21st, 2001, the average employed woman will finally have received the same wages as an average man received during the 12 months of 2000.
top

II. Wage Discrimination Data

According to studies of 1999 wage data, women of all races working full-time averaged only 72% of men’s salaries, a decrease from 1998. African-American women are paid 65% of the salaries averaged by white men, and Latinas receive a shameful 52%. The wage gap has changed by less than a penny per year since 1963. This disparity is not fully explained by differences in education or experience, nor will the market correct the wage discrimination on its own.

Even in job categories where women make up the majority of workers, the minority of men in those jobs are still paid more. For example, female wait staff receive 87% of what male wait staff are paid, and women in retail sales make just 64% as much as their male counterparts. Not only are women filtered into lower-paying, less respected positions, but while in those positions they are also paid less than men in similar jobs.

[Touchdown]

41. Humor bypasses you easily, doesn't it?

I know those statistics, and yes, it's still a travesty that in the 21st century we still have unequal wages.

HOWEVER! Bartending is a different animal, since alcohol is involved, and bars are social atmospheres, the social equality factor goes out the window, and sex takes over. This is after all, an industry that sells products called "Screaming orgasms" "Sex on the beach" "Blow Jobs" "Singapore Slings" and "Nuclear Hardons". The rate of hire in bartending goes in a 4 step process...

Young, hot women get hired first.
Every other woman next.
Third, young hot men.
Forth, every other man (like me)

Tips also apply in that same order. It's sexism still, because tips are usually commensurate to how stacked you are, but we can't countereffect what alcohol does to one's ability to gawk and monetary appreciation for gawking with legislation.

[Cleita]

47. I'm always suspicious of bartenders who pull that much in tips.

Many are not that honest and a busy night makes it easy not to ring up all sales. I think in this day and age though, computerized systems take away a lot of the opportunities to skim profits, so it might be possible that they can.

[ArkDem]

36. Tipping should only be done to cows.

[RamboLiberal]

40. Pay the service staff a decent wage and eliminate tipping

Give us the true price of the food. And I would think most restaurants can fairly accurately predict the staff they need on given days. Even with the low wages I sometimes find restaurants horribly understaffed, rarely overstaffed.

If your people give bad service then your restaurant will lose customers and you'll close. It's up to the management to get their butts out there on the floor and see how it's going. Too often the dang manager is in the back office.

And managers, when everything is going to hell in a handbasket, get your butts out there and help your staff.

And one more question I've always wondered. Why do upscale restuarants have mostly male staff while the family restuarants have mostly female? Seems to me some kind of discrimation. I've gotten better service from the ladies at many of the family restaurants.

I think it's a rip when I've gotten great service on a $10 bill and I'm expected to give $1.50 (I usually tip at least $2), and less than lousy service on a $40 bill and I'm expected to tip at least $6.

More and more I go to places like Boston Market, Panera's, etc. just cause I don't have to help supplement the low wages!

[mykpart]

45. I'm with you - decent wage.

It seems really unfair that the waiter at Denny's gets lower tips than the waiter in an upscale restaurant just because the price of the food is lower. These folks work as hard or harder than the upscale staff, especially since people bring small children to family restaurants, and not often to upscale ones. Hell, I tip the carhop at Sonic a dollar if I just get a Coke!

[emdee]

43. I think they should be paid more but would still tip. n/t

n/t

[Logansquare]

48. Having worked as a server, I have to side with the "no tips" faction

There are waiters in very high-end restaurants who make hundreds of dollars in tips in an evening, but most servers work in family and middle-range establishments, where tips are an excuse for lousy pay. Employers should pony up with either better pay, or a mandatory service charge on the bill, and stop pretending that good service is something that you have to bribe out of an employee.

In addition, some people, even very nice people, will stiff you. I have given excellent service to a number of people, and had them leave either no tip, or an insultingly small one (like five percent). Even though I considered myself a professional, it was difficult to not grit my teeth when I saw these individuals come in to the restaurant. This was 20 years ago, and pay was $2.10 per hour, with the rest coming from tips. Some women were supporting families on this, and getting stiffed or undertipped was not a joke to them.

[Sgent]

51. Hehe

I had a couple back in my serving days leave me $2 on a $100 ticket. They also dropped a comment card in the box telling how great their services was. ARGHHHH!!!!

[yewberry]

53. The "verbal tip!"

Better than the "Jesus Saves" tip, though neither is accepted at my bank.

[Book Lover]

58. But why should waitstaff get more money for more expensive food?

There is no more work inherent in carrying out that $30 steak than that $18 chicken entree - why should waitstaff get more for the steak?

[question everything]

55. Both

They should be paid decent wages. How many other jobs do you know where people are being treated like slaves? Have to beg, tolerate abusive behavior - read Barbara Ehrenriech's Nickeled and Dimed - to make an honest living?

We've all encounter rude or ineffective people where we need some help - the Minneapolis strib right now, as an example - but they are not paid starving wages.

Then, if we are happy with a specific service, we can tip. This way we always tip, 15% (before tax) because we know that this is income for them.

[Book Lover]

56. Living wages, pricier right-hand column, and no service charge

Wages are part of the operating budget of any business and prices should reflect that. See my Lounge thread for furthers.

[K-W]

57. Tipping should be an unexpected bonus,

given when the customer deems it appropriate.

The current system is a sham and should be replaced with a service charge or simply put the price into the menu.

If for no other reason than to remove the current situation where polite/generous people pay for the service of everyone.