If Arriana drops out, should the Green candidate also drop out?

[Gman]

Word is out now that Arriana is considering dropping out of the CA governor's race. No doubt because of yesterday's poll numbers showing Arnold way ahead. Arriana dropping out would be the right thing to do. It would also be the right thing to do for Camejo to drop out also.

If Camejo doesn't drop out that would confirm, again, my belief that the Green Party is the enemy of the Democratic Party. It would confirm that the Green Party wants to make sure Democrats do not get elected. It would prove the Green Party is just as much the enemy of the Democratic Party as is the GOP.

Know your enemies.

[MadHound]

1. Oh those mean old Greenies.

Let's see, you've got two 'Pugs running who are both supported by lots of money, and one who is beating Bustemonte and Davis in the polls. You've got one hundred plus other candidates running. And yet you're here to try and blame Camejo.

Pathetic, just too pathetic. Your blind hatred of a party that is ideologically closer to you than the 'Pugs is very telling. Rather than baselessly blame Greens, why not take that energy and put it into rebuilding the Democratic party. Then perhaps those disaffected Dems who went Green would come back to the fold.

But no, I guess it is simply easier on an intellectual and emotional level to blame the Greens, eh?

[Gman]

3. Camejo's only purpose for even being in this race

is to derail the Democrats. That makes Camejo the enemy.

If Camejo was truely in a party "that is ideologically closer to you than the 'Pugs" then because of that ideology and because of the likelyhood of electing a puke, he would drop out for ideological reasons.

Camejo has no chance of winning. Staying in the race will likely make Camejo another spoiler like Nader. If he has no chance of winning and he knows that by staying in it will allow Arnold to win, but he stays in, Camejo becomes the enemy no better than a puke.

[IrateCitizen]

20. Camejo's sole purpose for being in the race is to HIGHLIGHT ISSUES!

That is the simple truth, no matter how you try to spin it otherwise.

[MadHound]

21. No, Camejo only purpose in this race is to win!

Geez, don'tcha think you've got that tin foil on a little tight there. Going by your logic, and the latest polls, hell Bustamante should drop out. You see, since Bustamante has no chance of winning, and because of the likelyhood of electing a puke, and fact that Bustamante's staying in will allow Arnold to win, then Bustamante should drop out so the Camejo can then pick up those votes and win.

Look, sticking your head in the sand and blaming the Greens for everything has only so much semblance to reality, and is a very counterproductive place to be. The Dems are losing for a reason and it ain't the Greens. Why not pull your head out of the sand and find out what those reasons are(hint, you might go talk to a Green), and then work on them.

The blame game is just too pathetic.

[Gman]

68. Bustamante is in this race to win too

He has no reason to get out. If Camejo is in it to win too, that makes Camejo and the Greens the enemy. What you're saying is Camejo is in it to beat the Democrat. Again, that makes the Greens and Camejo the enemy.

[bearfartinthewoods]

85. there is no way around that stuborn fact

if Camejo's purpose is to win that means his purpose is to beat the Democrat.

that means the greens are an opposition party. i don't see how you get around that.

if he's there to highlight issues then he has accomplished that aim and he should bow out now and endourse the de.

ya can't have you cake and eat it too. if the greens are about winning then they are also about beating dems.

[Zhade]

97. Dude, next time halve the dosage. Less heart murmurs that way.

NT!

[PATRICK]

2. Actually the Green leader

also seemed shaken by THAT poll into considering support for Bustamante.
it seems almost everyone in the race including the stripper has more integrity and civic mindedness than the big S. I think the last minute push was to stampede the GOP especially into ditching McClintock.

[Iverson]

4. bad science

Camejo's decision to enter the race was made before the Democrats decided to field a candidate. That alone eliminates your thesis on the evidence.

Further, the Greens' position has been consistently for a "no" vote on the recall in the best interests of democracy.

But please, carry on with demonizing the Greens. One must go with one's strengths.

[Gman]

6. The speed of deciding to field a candidate is irrelevant

to the current likelyhood of electing a puke and what to do about it. Right now is what matters. The GOP fielded more candidates sooner than the Democrats or the Greens. Camejo is likely staying in the race to deny the Democrats a victory. If, as someone else posted the Green leader is actually shaken by the latest poll and Camejo is considering withdrawing, I will sing Camejo's praises from the rooftops!

If Camejo stays in and Arnold wins, he confirms my opinion that the Greens are in fact the enemy and should be treated as such.

[Iverson]

8. ignore the inconvenient

I can't agree that the Greens should undo all their plans in order to get out of the Democrats' way once the Democrats finally get around to making plans too.

I can't agree with this either:
"Camejo is likely staying in the race to deny the Democrats a victory."

The party of your preference is not the center of the universe. There are other far more sensible motivations, if only you were willing to see them.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

10. Actually Iverson and with all due respect

The GREEN PARTY did take that stand but Camejo was instrumental in getting people to sign petitions FOR THE RECALL. He has WHORED himself throughout this process and is only now softening his stance towards Bustamante since he realizes it will be SUICIDE for all the hard work his party has done to gain respectability if they are once again viewed as SPOILERS aiding Republicans..and in THIS RACE the charge IS VALID since it was WELL KNOWN this would be a close race.

It is also worth noting that Camejo sought out UNION SUPPORT and if Arnold wins, thoe unions will be the target of cuts and MORE privatisation as is the Republican way.

While I have often stated I have SOME ideological agreements with the Greens and remain sincere about that, I can NO LONGER speak supportively of a party that has such an ALL OR NOTHING view of politics that they cannot see when they are biting their nose to spite their face. California's labor laws are MUCH more liberal then MOST of the nation. Had Camejo been a bit less hungry for attention and a bit MORE hungry for justice, he could have made a backroom DEAL with the DEM party to rally Greens AGAINST ANY part of this recall in exchange for a bit of political consulting and input in policy (which IS possible in California politics)...but NO..it was all or nothing and once again, it looks like the Greens have ideologically opted for NOTHING as a valuable learning experience. :eyes:

Greens' Camejo says he'll run if Gov. Davis recall qualifies


June 03, 2003

LOS ANGELES

Peter Camejo, who ran for governor as the Green Party candidate in November, said Monday he plans to run again if the Republican-led campaign to recall Democratic Gov. Gray Davis makes it to the ballot.

Camejo, 63, who heads a money management firm in Concord, said he intends to announce his candidacy at a press conference June 16 in San Francisco.

"I personally believe that Davis should be recalled and that is the feeling of the majority of the people," said Camejo, who got 5 percent of the vote in November, compared to 47 percent for Davis and 42 percent for Republican Bill Simon.

http://www.rescuecalifornia.com/latest.news/63/

[Terwilliger]

14. How does all this indignation square with the fact that Bustamante

decided to get into the race? And, has run a bad race as an uninspiring candidate? Is he going to drop out for the good of the party, and for the ideology? Or will he stay in because of his own ego?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

18. It doesn't Ter...

if you read my early posts on this election I was AGAINST Bustamante running and in FAVOR of a unified face against the recall...I had to deal with the deck I was handed.

[Terwilliger]

24. Well, given that you didn't want Bustamante in the race...

should he drop out now? Everything could be focused on voting NO on Recall.

I still think your animosity towards Camejo and the Greens is off-base. Greens can't participate in a system that is defined by the amount of money you have to spend in greasing the wheels. Greens may be purists, but they're not taking the special interest money and using that to buy 10,000 campaign ads.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

41. And that's why they will get a marginal enough vote to only be a spoiler

Don't blame me...I didn't invent this fucking game.

[MadHound]

25. You know what burns me though NSMA

Is that for months and years the Greens around here have had it thumped into their head that we shouldn't be running for national office until we start winning some state offices(never mind the fact that we're doing just that elsewhere). So here we are running in a prime time oppurtunity to win a major state office, and people are busting our balls because we dare have the impudence to run for a state office. I mean damn! What will it take to satisfy you people, the complete disbanding of the Greens. Sorry, that's not happening.

I think the what the real deal is is that a lot of Dems realize how rotten the party is, and find it inconvienent that anybody is bringing the matter up. Truly afraid that the whole house of cards will come down.

[Terwilliger]

29. They don't want Greens to try anything without guarantees they might win

so, you see, it's the vicious cycle: they won't give them any credit until they win something, but they can't win anything without any support

Its essentially saying: *pat* *pat* *pat* Good little greenies...go on now, we adults have to appease more Republicans

[MadHound]

32. I hear you Terwilliger

And do most heartly concur. Frustrating as hell. Dems fiddling for their corporate masters while this country burns.

[JVS]

31. They want us to shut up and toe the democratic party line.

It has become quite obvious

[MadHound]

34. Yeah, well I gave that up a while back

Because more and more, toeing that Democratic line is the same thing as toeing the corporate/facist/'Pug line. No thank you, I want a real change in this country.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

38. I CAN AND DO sympathize with that interpretation and that upset

I don't know what to offer but HAVE to assume that Greens DO realize that regardless of abuses built INTO the system by party politics and fundraising payoffs (or simply turning a blind eye when one of your donors is the source of the problem), that DEMS actually ARE more responsive than Republicans. NOT as responsible as the Greens or even I as a Democrat would like to see but one need to look no further than the history.

In California, George Deukmajian eliminated Cal Osha for a year to the protest of Democrats. Cal Osha monitors 170 more toxic chemicals than does FED Osha due to the defense industry.

Arnold is talking CUTTING BACK on Cal EPA..again a regulatory agency that actually polices further than does the FEDERAL EPA in California.

Davis HAS called for cleaner emissions standards in California.

At some point one has to look at what they are out to accomplish...if it is party bulding ONLY and the devil may care about the results...then the Greens are doing the right thing.

If it really is having a voice in LIVING WAGES, the environment and progressive policies, then the logical conclusion is that the Greens must decide which of the parties is likely to GAIN or lose by their participation in the process and their party building...if they truly think Republicans GAINING by their participation in an election isn't such a bad thing, then they should continue on course since it leads them to their eventual goal.

If they don't then ,aybe they should step back.

It seems to me LIBERALS in Europe have GOTTEN this dynamic but not here.

[MadHound]

54. A rub with your thesis there NSMA

Having worked with Greens locally and nationwide for a while now, I've found that most of them are disgruntled and disillusioned Dems. Apparently the party hasn't been responsive to them.

And yes, what we're out to accomplish is party building. While most of the Greens out in CA are calling for a NO on the recall, the are running Camejo. Why, because they see an oppurtunity to win with so many people splitting the vote. Gee, what a feather that could be, a Green CA govenor.

And no, we don't think that 'Pugs gaining anything, in any form or fashion, is a good thing. However we have all become so pissed at the direction this country is taking under both 'Pugs and Dems that we are going to stand up and fight for change. With a Democratic party being directed by the same corporate masters that rule over the 'Pugs how can anything effective be done from within the party? Trust me, I've tried for years and decades, as have many other Greens I know, to change the party from within. And gee, what did it get us? NAFTA, WTO, FTAA, '96 Telecom Act, welfare "reform" and a Dem congress that votes right along with the 'Pugs on the Patriot Act and the war resolution. Two parties, same corporate masters, if you can't see that fact plain before you, then you need to wake up and check you vision.

In the end perhaps the Democratic party will be responsive to this, will wean themselves off the corporate teat. Somehow I doubt it though, which is why I'm caucassing with the Greens. Their small, but getting larger all the time. And their mad as hell and are willing to fight this corporate madness.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

59. I got the rub and think that assembly races would have been more

appropriate than the governor's office where they may smell blood but the kill is far out of reach and a much larger carnivore will not only steal the spoils but eat them too.

I can appreciate the anger and frustration but find this vote to be no less emotional than the radical middle vote that goes to Repubs or Dems based on whether or not they have cream in their coffee on any given day. The only thing that varies is the severity of the issue.

I checked my vision but have to acknowledge that the future of California looks VERY much like the rearview mirror as I was speeding out of Florida a couple years back.

BTW< NAFTA GATT et al are not state issues and frankly in spite of all his misgivings and catering to this person and that, Davis actually UNDERMINED private prison interests by giving raises to STATE prison employees.

Seems to me that to invoke NAFTA and Gatt in the argument of a state race perfectly underscores my point about an emotional but dangerous vote.

In the meantime, Greens have squandered whatever support and sympathy they could get from a person like me who previously wished them SOME success.....

I frankly think when things get bad enough, they will have squandered support from within their own ranks by those who will have a nagging feeling they voted to shoot themselves in the foot rather than drive a stake through the heart of their opponent.

[MadHound]

66. Oh, so now you're down to assembly races, eh?

Well, I do believe that there are some Green state assembly reps that are serving. Are you saying that is where we need to stay, be good little Greenies and stay in the state assemblies? Sorry, that shit don't fly with nobody.

Greens have also been elected to spots like Secretary of State, Lt. Govenor, etc. Next logical step up is govenor. And yet here you are saying that we shouldn't take it. What, are you afraid we might win?

And actually NAFTA, FTAA, et al ARE state issues. I live in a large agricultural state. Since NAFTA impacts on selling ag products to Mexico, it affects state residents directly, albeit mostly positively(larger market to sell to). However NAFTA is also a city level issue too. We have two large manufacturers, 3M and Square D, who are packing up and moving to Mexico. Direct affect of NAFTA. Don't you get it, what is global is also local?

As for as Greens realizing they've shot themselves in the foot, I doubt it. I caucas with a party that is much more in tune with my world outlook, that responds to me personally, that is active and vital, and finally a party that has no ties to corporate interests.

How does it feel NSMA, to be a moral, compassionate and just person, caucassing with a corporate controlled party, whose bottom line is where's the money? I think when your moral quandry gets bad enough(as it did with me), you will come on over to the Green way. More and more people are doing it for your moral self can only be abused for so long.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

67. Did states vote for NAFTA?

I am CLEAR on the REACH of NAFTA..I was referencing the fact that it was a FEDERAL NOT state program which you either know and ignored or conveniently dismissed since it didn't factor into your argument (which it STILL doesn't....how can Greens govern if they dismiss how government works?)

How does it feel to have every last thing you are committed to get worse due to your heels being firmly planted in rightousness and ineffective action?

I'm not afraid you might win...if you actually stood a chance versus Arnold in this race, I would SUPPORT your venture.

You won't and don't, therefore, I don't.

My conscience is clear in the matter....if you read my responses to your comrade below you will see why.

[MadHound]

69. Actually, yes, they did, through their Congressional reps

Or have you forgotten how the mechanisms of a democratic republic work?

As far as my heels being planted, I think you're projecting there a bit. How does it feel to have every last thing you are comitted to get worse due to your party abandoning every last shred of decency and morality for the all consuming quest of corporate money?

Nice that your conscience is clear, remember that when your job goes overseas, or the next time your Dem rep votes for more "security" ala the Patriot Act, or the next time the Dems dance to their corporate master's tune. Maybe it will be a balm for your soul. It certainly wasn't for mine.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

71. I work in labor rights in California...the only thing going overseas

will be the jobs of the people I protect...I am educated and industrious and will find a way regardless.

Now you are blaming STATE reps for what congressional reps do...your arguments at least started out passionate and logical and are now convoluted and only aimed toward domination whether you can actually achieve that end or not..much like your ineffective party that seems to follow the exact same cookbook for disaster.

Have a nice day...this is no longer productive.

PS...I could give a shit about balm for my soul and warm enemas and the like...I have waged effective action on behalf of those less fortunate for over two decades now as a DEMOCRAT..people who would have lost everything including the roof over their head were it not for me.

You should HAVE the privilege of living my life and experiencing my accomplishments for ONE DAY...it makes looking in the mirror a very tolerable exercise for me.

[MadHound]

74. ROFLMAO

Ooo Ooo, you've been working in labor rights in CA for two whole decades. And I'm supposed to bow down for this? Boy talk about the last refuge for the desperate!

Look, you know nothing about me, but quite frankly I would put my credentials against yours anyday. Let's see, started volunteering work for the Democratic party thirty plus years ago(yes, I was an eleven year old volunteer for McGoveren).
I have volunteered in every Dem Presidential campaign since, up to and including the Gore debacle. As far as labor rights go, how many places have you unionized? Throughout my life I've done ten. All volunteer work, no pay.
And then there are endless local and state campaigns, anti nuke campaigns, enviromental campaigns, anti war campaigns, and on and on. You wish to see my rap sheet? I've got arrests for non-violent protests going back three decades, seeing the inside of a cell at least twenty times. And yes, it was all as a Democrat, and none of it for pay. Geez, you really stepped in it. How much social work have you done? How many lives have you saved? How many disasters averted, how many people have you saved? You just gotta love a volunteer firman now eh? How many people have called your happy ass on a suicide line with a gun to their head looking for help? Not many I hope, 'cause they would have been dead by now with your attitude.

I'm glad that you have made a difference with your life, but really now, it sounds as though you've just gotten started. But it sounds like you do your deeds for money. Why not try doing them for free? As in GIVE something back to the community. If you really wish to play this stupid game anymore I'll just PM my resume to you so as not to take up the bandwidth.

By the by, where did you ever get that I was talking about state reps? Reread, I think you'll find I was talking about national reps.

I think I'll bypass the "privilege" of living your life for a day. I'm too busy living my own.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

77. Nice to know you will flush all your accomplishments down the toilet as

well then. You are the one who accused me of shortselling people so I responded...I have no interest in determining who has a bigger political penis...feel free to parade yours around.

By the by, where did you ever get that I was talking about state reps? Reread, I think you'll find I was talking about national reps.

I have read. We are talking about a state election for a state position on this thread...I.E. the RECALL...you invoked NAFTA and congress..

Your triangulating isn't obvious to you. It is to me. Zen buddhism would refer to this as fish in water syndrome.


Oh yeah...and I had the fucking gaul to make my living and support myself while helping others, when I could have made 20 times as much on the other side of the game....what fucking criminal am I *smacks head and drops to my knees with remorse*

[Zhade]

98. Damn straight.

Hell, blaming the Greens is blaming the victim of this screwed-up 2-party system (we were warned against even HAVING political parties, for crying out loud).

Greens go for principles. Democrats? Less and less each year. Though people like DK do inspire some hope.

(BTW, I'm an independent, so don't bother to flame me, people.)

[dfong63]

36. camejo's votes don't belong to cruz in the first place

... Camejo has a certain percentage because there are a certain percentage who want to vote for someone with Camejo's platform. remember they are adults, they like Camejo better than Bustamante, and they are aware of the consequences. it's silly to blame Camejo for the fact that this segment of voters prefers him to Bustamante. if Camejo weren't in the race, it's not a given that his voters would go to Bustamante. they might vote for Arianna or they might just stay home on election day.

this is a free country, and it's right for voters to have a choice. if dems want the green vote, they'll have to EARN it by running greener candidates, not by denying the voters a choice.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

40. Yes, I have been all over my region and have noted that Camejo's

support base is largely on college campuses. As one who is OUT there I can attest to that fact. These are people who are ideologically rooted but very politicall naive which is why they are willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Since they are mostly living off their parents or student loans and grants, they really don't have to consider real world options and can cling to their notions of how it SHOULD be rather than HOW IT IS.

[jiacinto]

90. Exactly

and many of these people will end up as conservatives once they have to pay their own bills.

[Iverson]

60. reply for nsma

Let us assume that all of your information is correct. The conclusion to which my response (the one you responded to) objects is that therefore the Greens are the enemies of the Democrats.

I am sure that if you consider the original post, you will find that conclusion to be more a matter of the poster's preferences than it is a result of the available information. That is why I called it bad science.

I have no problem with your opposition to Camejo. Go right ahead. It is the too-convenient conceptual leap masquerading as reason that sticks in my craw.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

61. I hear ya

;-) There's evidence of it on both sides of this debate in this thread.

[Iverson]

63. of course

No group enjoys a monopoly on good (or bad) reasoning. But here we are on this thread which is clearly devoted to making a negative judgement about a group to which I just happen to belong, so I'm going to spend more energy rebutting the primary assertion than in losing my allies by sending them to debate school.

And frankly, I'm here on DU to have dialogue with Dems like you who are capable of cool-headed exchange, and not condescending conservative hotheads who don't realize that I was a Democrat longer than some of them have been alive.

This "enemy" garbage is straight out of W's idiom. If you izzn't wiv us, you is agin' us. What a help that all is!

[JVS]

5. No

[enki23]

7. about your dreaded "enemies..."

i'm sure they're quaking in their little green boots as they consider the terrible retribution meted out upon the "enemies" of some democrats.

still, i'm a little confused. what exactly does it mean to call greens your "enemies?" are you going to stop voting for them? or does it mean you won't let them sit beside you on the bus? will you call them mean names, give them dirty looks, cut off cars with "recycle" bumperstickers? will you cut down some trees just to spite 'em?

i know. i think you should, just to get back at your enemies, join the republicans in their war on brown people, the environment, and the rest of the world. that'll piss 'em off. you can whore yourself out to monopolistic corporations, work to make NAFTA global. you should encourage democrats to vote in favor of any military action that comes along. greens hate that.

i wish you well in your bitter struggle against your "enemies."
(just don't use any weapons of mass destruction)
(or lieberman)

[Gman]

12. The Greens as the enemy of the Democratic Party

means they should be politically treated no different than the enemy GOP. Mainly that means we as Democrats cannot count on Greens as ideological allies. We cannot expect the Greens to work with the Democrats to defeat the right wing because the Greens have their own agenda that does not include the Democrats. Nader proved it in 2000 when he intentionally derailed Gore.

Since Greens have no desire to work with Democrats, and since Greens are willing to spoil elections and let the right wing increase their power, that makes the Democratic Party the ONLY party truely intent on defeating the right wing. And that includes bettering the lives of people of color. If the Greens really gave a shit about defeating the GOP and the right wing, they would only run candidates where they have a chance to win and not give an election to a puke.

One can only assume Camejo is in this to not only defeat the GOP candidate, but to defeat the Democrat candidate. However, it's obvious he cannot win. If he was so ideologically pure, he would bail out and let Bustamante win. But Camejo is not. That makes him the enemy.

[enki23]

13. it went *completely* over your head, didn't it.

;-)

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

22. In California, the Green tent seems to be big enough only to aid

Republicans.

[Brian Sweat]

26. Again, this statement is based on the fallacious assumption

that Democrats and Greens should be making common cause. Do the libertarians and the GOP make common cause? The Greens have political views that differ significantly from those of the Democratic party. They have the right to run their own candidate and vote for whomever they choose.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. Yes the Libertarians and the Repubs DO

Perhaps you didn't notice that GWB's entire social security revamp was vetted by the CATO institute...a LIBERTARIAN think tank...but don't let an actual refutation of your theory get in the way.

[Brian Sweat]

46. Please explain.

Also, did the LIbertarian candidate drop out of the race in 2000 to insure that GWB would win? Did he tell his supporters to vote for Bush?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

47. Well if you recall, Ron Paul a Libertarian RAN as a Repub

I think I have MORE than answered your question...don't bother considering it if it doesn't fit with your ideology...

Perhaps I have reached an impass.

Anyway....I gotta go to work

[Brian Sweat]

56. You don't know what my ideology is.

I am not a Green and not even close. I hate the Greens, but I respect their right to run their own candidate and vote for whomever they wish.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

62. So do I and I respect my right to criticize it when it only makes the

issues they claim to care for such as a living wage and rights of individuals worse.

on edit: But I do acknowledge my remarks to you were off base, conclusionary as to your ideology, presumptuous and uncalled for.

I apologize...really..this gal's a bit on edge this week...hope you understand.

[Terwilliger]

89. why does everyone keep saying Paul is a Libertarian?

He said on NOW with Bill Moyers that he was NOT a Libertarian

[JVS]

33. Well that is just too bad.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

43. Wow...an intellect!!

:eyes: Pehaps you can put your fingers in your ears and go "la la la I can't hear you" so I can see what a REAL rebuttal looks like.

[JVS]

45. I would have said more, but then I decided that it is better not to engage

in what might be seen as bashing the party. But I guess you want to see a rebuttal, so here goes. It is too bad. It is too bad that the Democratic party has become so pathetic that its first reaction to any competition is to cry about it. It is too bad that the Democratic party cannot find a way to try to appeal to leftist voters beyond attempting to guilt and shame them into supporting it. It is too bad that the Democratic party is at such a disgraceful level that the front runner for its presidential nomination could only admit to being a Democrat within the last month. It is too bad that the Democratic party is about as full of life as a 97 year old that has been hit by a Mack truck.

edit: typo

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

50. Thanks for admitting your stated purpose

It is pretty clear that you take great glee in admitting I am correct.

[JVS]

52. You aren't correct. You are unable to defend your party so you attack my

intellect. So, NSMA, please demonstrate your fabulous intellect. I'd really love to hear of your acomplishments. What makes you so great? What should all of us peons do so that we can be more like you?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

64. Well it's completely off purpose for this thread but if you must know

I worked on the last round of workers comp legislation that was passed in California in the early 90's and was able to create pressure on both sides of the aisle in sacramento to get the MOST draconian parts of the bill removed.

I worked with a coalition of Democrats and Republicans with a hostile anti-labor governor in the governor's office to retain workers' rights to choose their own physician in an injury rather than be stuck and at the mercy of an insurance carrier doctor who thinks that no matter what part of the body is missing it isn't disabled.

I worked with those responsible for drafting regulations to enforce that legislation to make sure it not only punished fraud on the part of the malingering worker but also fraud on the part of the insurance carriers and worked to make sure that one of the trade offs in the legislation were MORE punitive fines to carriers who egregiously denied benefits to legitimately injured workers.

Your turn...what have you done?

on edit: BTW, I did this as a member of my party so, by way of reference, it is also in defense of my party..what legislation has your party accomplished to protect workers rights?

[Gman]

65. Vote for whoever you want to

but if you don't vote for the Democrat, don't call yourself a Democrat and you have no say in the affairs of the Democratic Party.

[MadHound]

30. Man, I needed your drugs about three years ago

Then I too could have stayed a loyal Dem. But no, Gore and Company had to go blow chunks in '00 while whoring themselves out to their corporate masters.

Wake the fuck up, two major parties, same corporate masters, Wake the fuck up!

Or not and put your blind faith in the Dems and watch them take the country to hell(just at a kinder and gentler pace).

[Brian Sweat]

23. He means political opponents.

The Greens are just another party like the GOP, the Libertarians and the Natural Law Party. They are political opposition to the DNC.

[Brian Sweat]

9. You're argument is bases on the fallacious assumption that

the relationship between the Democratic Party and the Green Party is somehow different than the relationship between the Democratic Party and the Republican Party or any other party.

[Terwilliger]

11. I guess you didn't read the original post

not surprising

[Brian Sweat]

19. No, I read it.

He assumes that the Greens are either the Democrats special friends or their special enemy.

I'm saying that the Greens are just another political party. Why do you have a problem with this?

Also, why can't you make a post without resorting to a personal attack?

[Terwilliger]

27. You must not have

what you suggested is covered by this:

It would prove the Green Party is just as much the enemy of the Democratic Party as is the GOP.

How is that not saying that the parties are all different? You said his argument was based on the reasoning that Greens are somehow special enemies or special friends. That's not what he said, so your argument is fallacious.

[Brian Sweat]

35. What argument?

[Emboldened Chimp]

15. Yes, Camejo should drop out

and endorse Bustemante. That would solidify the left behind Cruz, whereas the right will still be split between McClintock and Arnie. That would put us in good shape.

[dfong63]

39. camejo voters would not all go to bustamante anyway

[Emboldened Chimp]

44. Who would they vote for, then?

Just out of curiosity...

[imhotep]

17. No

Camejo is the only one in the race who can fix the problem.

[Emboldened Chimp]

28. He's not going to win

Sorry, but this is bigger than the Green Party. This is about democracy itself. We have to put aside all the petty bs and stand behind the ONE candidate who has publicly denounced this right wing power grab: Cruz Bustemante.

[hooligan]

53. I agree on this point manco

First and foremost, I am opposed to the recall itself. This attempted power grab by the Republicans must be thwarted. This is why I am voting NO/Bustamante, despite my reservations (no pun intended) about him. The governor's seat belongs to Gray Davis and the Democratic party, and we must do what we can to preserve the decision made by California voters last year. Furthermore, in any other situation where the governor can't fulfill his duties, the Lt. Gov. takes over. It should be no different now. And finally, there would be an element of poetic justice if Cruz were elected gov. You see, the Republicans hate him even more than Gray Davis, so I would love to see their own treachery come back to bite them in the ass.

However, the Democrats should not be heaping the blame for their own shortcomings on the Greens. In California, Democratic voters far outnumber Republicans, yet even with two Republicans splitting the vote, the Democratic candidate is behind in the latest poll. The Democratic party has major problems. Blaming third party candates will not fix them.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

70. Actually the Cal Dem party did NOT have major problems

We were well organized in the last election and swept every statewide office, the assembly and the senate.

Nobody was prepare for the recall to go through since many of the court challenges were valid and were summarily dismissed by a Republican dominated state supreme court even though the Republican supreme court chief justice felt some of the cases (specifically the one that called for Bustamante to succeed Davis) had merit.

We had limited funds after the last election, Arnold has gotten a SHIT LOAD of positive and free press, Davis has gotten a SHITLOAD of negative press and blame for things CLEARLY beyond his control (such as spending issues tied toa BIPARTISAN assembly and senate from LAST YEAR and the three years prior that spent all the surplus, healthcare costs outpacing inflation by large margins, and the energy debacle which lowered the value of our bonds thereby increasing costs)

If Davis had raised even MORE funds to wage an effective battle against the recall, people would be hating him more..so he's damned if does (that corporate ass kissing whore :eyes: ) and damned if he doesn't (that ineffective panty waist tu tu Dem)

The only problem was UNITY and you might recall the idea to run another candidate rather than stick together and WORK to defend the record and DEFEAT the recall was an idea imposed on us by our beltway folks and the DNC.

[hooligan]

91. Good points

But here are some problems that I see:

1. Democrats are losing members in CA. Recent statistics show that a growing number of voters (including myself) are registering as "undeclared."

2. I will be the first to argue that the problems with California's economy are in large part due to circumstances beyond the control of Gray Davis, i.e. dot-com bust and national recession. But Davis did make mistakes. He said it himself: "I've made mistakes." And he also admitted to "losing touch with the people." It is great that he is taking steps to remedy these mistakes, but it shouldn't have taken a recall to motivate him.

3. Many Democrats signed the recall petition, and many will vote yes on the recall. Their own constituents turning against them is a major problem.

4. Bustamante is not an inspiring candidate. In a heavily democratic state, he is falling behind a Republican candidate even with a split vote. The problem here is not Camejo, it is Bustamante.

[Blue_Chill]

37. Of course the Greens are enemies.

People that say different are not paying attention or being overly sympathetic. They run against us and typically attack Dems more then they attack RWers.

Greens run in races knowing the ONLY effect they can have is to steal votes from the democrats. Thy can't get a single GOP vote and they know it. They can't win and they know it. They are happy with simply screwing the democrats.

[im4edwards]

51. I'm a little conflicted on this

On the one hand I don't think it will matter if all the other minor candidates stay or go.

On the other hand, Camejo has a good message well delivered and deserves his opportunity to stand before the people for their judgement. Similarly, his supporters deserve a chance to be elected. If he walks away the chance is gone.

It was apparant (to me if noone else) from the start that Huffington was not serious about this and her hanging around only hurt Davis and Bustamante. That does not in any way suggest that she is a non-democrat. Hers was a more an ego trip than anything else IMHO.

[mitchtv]

55. camejo should endorse NO and be done with it

arianna should endorse Cruz. Peter seems well meaning, but he aided and abetted the recall It was a mistake as was Bustamante's campaign, Loretta Sanchez and her crowd were wrong as I said then. Dianne was and still is right. We should all oppose the recall. Cruz has run a non existant campaign

[Forkboy]

57. Democracy is a beautiful thing

too bad so many seem to hate it in action :shrug:

[JVS]

58. Wow. You just gave me an idea.

We could try to win more swing voters to the democratic party by adopting a new authoritarian stance! I think it is clear that the American people have grown tired of this messy Democracy. ;-)

[sandnsea]

82. We had democracy last November

What we've got now is a coup. It's too bad people are more interested in pushing their own political ideologies. My illiterate 70 year old father can figure this out, why can't supposedly smart liberals?

[Forkboy]

83. While I agree that this is a takeover attempt by the repugs

the fact remains that people have the right to run if they want to.It IS democracy.The repugs motives dont change that.

I would hope that people will vote NO on the recall,but if they dont then that's the Californians choice.And it's thier choice if they feel Camejo or whomever is a detriment or a good thing.

I get a little fed up with people claiming certain people should drop out or not run at all,whether it's the recall or the Dem nominees.We have a way to decide these things...voting.

[Ouabache]

72. Was Camejo the Socialist Workers Party Prez candidate in 1976 ?

Just wondering if this is the same dude...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

73. Yes..it forever branded union workers as communists

[Loyal]

They should drop out,

especially considering the facts that the recall vote is so close and that the race is so close between Arnold and Bustamante. Arianna(a former conservative Republican columnist herself, let's not forget) and Camejo only serve as spoilers in this most crucial of contests.

[IndianaGreen]

92. Maybe Davis and Bustamante should drop out and endorse...

the Socialist candidate John Christopher Burton. Why should we be the ones that always get stuck supporting bourgeois candidates that will never address the root causes of economic injustice and poverty?


John Christopher Burton

Burton and the Socialist Equality Party are calling for a “no” vote on the recall of Davis, because the drive to remove the Democratic governor from office is an effort to bypass democratic procedures and overturn last November’s election, organized and financed by right-wing elements in the Republican Party and their corporate backers.

At the same time, Burton is giving no political support to Davis or to any of the candidates associated with the Democratic Party who are running in the replacement election. The SEP candidate is running to provide a socialist alternative, should the recall succeed, to the parties and candidates of big business, as well as their liberal third-party and independent critics, such as Green Party candidate Peter Camejo and columnist Arianna Huffington.

Unlike the co-called “major candidates” in the replacement election, Burton has placed opposition to the invasion and occupation of Iraq at the center of his campaign. He is opposing any allocation of funds for the occupation of Iraq and calling for the immediate and unconditional withdrawal of US troops from Afghanistan, Iraq and the entire Middle East.

http://www.wsws.org/icfi/us/meet.html

Socialist Equality Party statement on the California recall election
Vote “no” on the California recall. Vote John Christopher Burton for governor, for a socialist solution to the crisis
Jobs for the unemployed! Billions for education, health care and housing! US troops out of Iraq!
30 August 2003

1. The Socialist Equality Party (SEP) calls on working people in California to utilize the October 7 recall election to deal a blow to the Bush administration and the policies of war and social reaction of both the Republican and Democratic parties. We urge a “no” vote on the recall of Governor Gray Davis, in order to defeat this latest attempt by the Republican Party, acting in the interests of the corporate elite, to subvert democratic processes. At the same time, we offer no political support to Davis, Lt. Governor Bustamante or any other representative of the Democratic Party. We urge a vote for John Christopher Burton, a Los Angeles civil rights lawyer and SEP supporter, who is on the ballot to provide a socialist alternative, should the recall succeed, to the candidates associated with the two big business parties.

2. The California recall election has national and international significance. The social crisis in California is of unprecedented dimensions: on the one hand, a colossal state budget deficit, bankrupt schools and hospitals, skyrocketing housing costs, rising unemployment and poverty, deteriorating conditions of life for the vast majority of the population; on the other hand, the richest state in the richest country in the world, with an astonishing concentration of wealth in the hands of the corporate elite of CEOs, bankers and billionaires. A single individual in Silicon Valley, Oracle CEO Larry Ellison, has a personal fortune that peaked in 2000 at $58 billion—more than enough to cover the entire state budget deficit.

3. In the face of this acute contradiction between the accumulation of private wealth and the needs of the broad public, the “major” candidates—Davis himself, the target of the recall, and his would-be successors, Democrat Cruz Bustamante and Republicans Arnold Schwarzenegger, Tom McClintock and Peter Ueberroth—agree that the burden of the crisis must be placed on the backs of the working people. They may differ on the exact mixture of budget cuts, fees and consumption taxes to impose, but none of them proposes any significant inroads into the wealth and income of the rich. In the final analysis, despite their demagogy about protecting the interests of ordinary people, they all represent and defend a wealthy elite.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/aug2003/cali-a30.shtml

[Zhade]

99. Er...how, exactly, is he going to get the soldiers out of Iraq himself?

I mean, not knocking the guy, but the bold statement is a little unrealistic...unless he has superhuman strength, and plans on defeating BushCo single-handedly?

That's it. He's got my vote. ;)

(He is correct on the wealthy elite part. No question.)

[IndianaGreen]

100. Order the troops home!

You will see all of our soldiers falling all over themselves trying to obey their new Commander-in-Chief, and none of them will badmouth the decision to withdraw.

Nothing short of an unconditional and immediate withdrawal of US troops is acceptable!

[Loyal]

They should drop out,

especially considering the facts that the recall vote is so close and that the race is so close between Arnold and Bustamante. Arianna(a former conservative Republican columnist herself, let's not forget) and Camejo only serve as spoilers in this most crucial of contests.

[Loyal]

75. They should drop out,

especially considering the facts that the recall vote is so close and that the race is so close between Arnold and Bustamante. Arianna(a former conservative Republican columnist herself, let's not forget) and Camejo only serve as spoilers in this most crucial of contests.

[Loyal]

76. I'm sorry,

DU was running kind of slow, and I didn't know that the posts had gone through.

[Iverson]

78. oh, that's OK

Just remember that you can call for the withdrawl of the Green candidate, even though he was in first, but I can't do the same to your candidate. That's progressivism, apparently.

[IndianaGreen]

79. What the hell are you smoking now?

Don't you get it? The majority of Californians don't want Davis. They dislike Davis so much that Bustamante is being hurt by Davis unpopularity.

While I still hope we can get Cruz in, I think your ridiculous tirade against Peter Camejo is a major case of displacement.

Instead of wasting time and energy making fun of Arnold's accent or complaining about his movies, or his sexual shenanigans decades ago, we should have spent more time attacking Arnold on the issues: his lack of experience, his lack of a real plan to solve California's problems, and the fact that a vote for Arnold is a vote for Pete Wilson. Just who in the hell do you think is going to be running things if Arnold gets in?

Bustamante is the only candidate to present a viable plan that addresses the problems California is facing, no one else comes close to Cruz's "Tough Love for California."

[Loyal]

80. I personally prefer

Davis over Bustamante. I'd vote No on recall, and yes on bustamante, if I lived there. But if I had a choice of the recall failing and Davis staying governor, or the recall succeeding and Arnold winning, I'd pick the first option.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

84. IG with all DUE RESPECT, I seem to recall a certain DU'er getting under

your craw when he pretended to know more about your state than you did.



While it is TRUE that the majority of Californians including myself don't LIKE Gray Davis, many of the reasons MOST don't care for him have to do with things he as governor DID NOT DO such as:

Create the energy crisis although he COULD HAVE AND SHOULD HAVE acted faster.
Create the BUDGET crisis. The budget crisis was caused by the tech collapse aided by easy coast banks and inflated IPO prices designed to SUCK the profit out of the market before it ever materialized, the ENERGY crisis, the fact that although prison spending increased, but for the guard's raises ( a UNION JOB) that INCREASE was due to healthcare costs outpacing inflation by nearly 20%.

Cruz Bustamante has NO ONE to blame BUT HIMSELF for his stupid ass missteps in the governor's campaign. Telling people they are going to pay more taxes when Davis is being recalled for teling people THEY are going to pay more fees is HARDLY a winning strategy.

Cruz got the taste of bloodlust and it is NOW coming back to bite HIM in the ass.

Since you HAVEN'T SEEN Davis's anti-recall commercials (they don't air in the CORNBELT) you WOULDN'T KNOW that that is EXACTLY the manner in which the commercials attacked the issues...arnld's lack of experience, the power grab, the fact that it makes the state a laughing stock etc.

Bustamante's TOUGH LOVE and his DELIBERATE UNDERMING of Davis may work..it remains to be seen...it had DISASTROUS results when he pulled this same shit last November immediately prior to the LAST election and nearly gave the state to Bill Simon.


Whether or NOT DAVIS is an asshole is neither here nor there. IF being an ASSHOLE were sufficient reason to DUMP an elected leader...we'd be recalling the whole fucking crowd..I hate to say it. I DON'T WANT TO GIVE LURKING fuckwads any ideas.

oh yeah....and Camejo is a stupid fuck who cannot win and can ONLY HURT the union workers and laborers he claims he loves so much...he loves them like a vulture loves the taste of a small domesticated animal.

The GREENS in their take no prisoners zeal have shown their true colors...they are out to fuck the nation over in order to prove they are right.

As JOAN OF ARC would say, "WELL DONE"

The only problem with martyrdom is it works best when one causes their OWN suffering to prove a point..not everyone else's

Good work....

[Iverson]

101. (sigh)

"oh yeah....and Camejo is a stupid fuck who cannot win and can ONLY HURT the union workers and laborers he claims he loves so much...he loves them like a vulture loves the taste of a small domesticated animal."

What was that? Striker Replacement Bill? NAFTA? the Democrats?

Well, at least "stupid fuck" moved the discourse forward.

"Good work...."

Indeed.

[starscape]

81. NO.

To the original post, the answer is "No" and why would he?

He's not a Democrat, and owes no allegiance to Davis or Bustamante, and neither do his supporters.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

86. hell they don't owe anything, their parents do..they are mostly

college kids who have never had to have a real job.

As one who has canvassed for Dems...I'm pretty clear where Camejo has made in roads....Berekely and Santa Cruz...college TOWNS

[Loyal]

87. Amen

:)

[Iverson]

95. religious faith

I urge you to put that dogma to a better test than uncritical acceptance.

[Iverson]

94. can't agree

I know from experience and involvement that this caricature is merely that: a caricature.

That crack about "real jobs" is likewise false, and it is distressingly reminiscent of right wing Republicans describing certain groups. It is an appeal to ridicule.

Undoubtedly, we can find college campuses where Democrats have a solid presence among the student body. Using your logic, we should then say exactly the same dismissive and minimizing things about them.

Somehow, I think that you would ultimately see that that is an intellectually unworthy approach.

[Forkboy]

103. That will be a shock

to the Greens I know.They all have jobs and three are older than 50.

Huh...who would have thunk it?

[jiacinto]

88. Camejo won't drop out

So this question is somewhat pointless.

[bleedingheart]

93. After seeing Ahnolllddd talk to Tweety today

I hope the Greens do back the Dems just to make sure that ego monkey doesn't get elected.

[Zhade]

96. Careful, you're dismissing the Coleman Factor. He'll surprise you!

NT!

[Ardee]

102. evidence is rather subjective

You reach a premise based on an already prejudicial position and might as well have said if the sun comes up in the morning that proves that Greens are the enemy...silly logic, silly reasonong and silly position.