London Police Story on Shooting Man From Brazil All LIES

[stewert]

Remember when O'Reilly, the media, all the right-wingers, and the London police said this guy deserved what he got and he brought it all on himself, wrong, it was all lies.

And dont forget John Gibsons five to the noggin bullshit story where he said he was fine with five to the noggin for that guy.

----------------

Police under pressure over Menezes leak

Family representatives and campaigners for the Brazilian man shot dead on a London tube train are demanding to know how Scotland Yard allowed misleading information to circulate about his killing.

In the wake of a leak last night from the independent report, which revealed eyewitnesses seeing Jean Charles de Menezes being held by police in his seat before being shot in the head, attention has now turned to the initial accounts of his death. These claimed he ran from police, vaulted a ticket barrier and was shot on the floor of the carriage.

Helen Shaw, co-director of the deaths in custody campaign group Inquest, said today that differences between the accounts - including the disclosure that he was not, as previously claimed, wearing a bulky padded jacket - raised concerns about police conduct.

"The public should be told why the Metropolitan police did not correct the misinformation about Mr de Menezes' clothing and actions once the facts became clear," she said.

Asad Rehman, a spokesman for the De Menezes family campaign, claimed the police had deliberately misled the public over the death. "It's evident we have been told lies and half-truths about how Jean died."

Mr de Menezes was shot dead in the carriage of a tube train at Stockwell station on July 22 in the mistaken belief that he was linked to the previous day's failed bomb attempts. A report in today's Financial Times said surveillance officers mistook him for Hussein Osman, the July 21 bomb plot suspect whose extradition to Britain was today approved by a court in Italy.

Initial accounts suggested that Mr de Menezes had fled from armed officers by vaulting over barriers before stumbling on to an underground train, where the officers opened fire. One witness in the carriage, Mark Whitby, 47, whose account formed an important part of the subsequent reports, said he had seen a man who looked Pakistani "hotly pursued by what I knew to be three plain-clothes police officers".

He described the man wearing "a coat like you would wear in winter, a sort of padded jacket" and looking as petrified as "a cornered rabbit" when he got on the train. Mr Whitby today refused to comment on the leak.

According to documents obtained by ITV News from the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), which is investigating the shooting, Mr de Menezes was filmed on CCTV cameras entering the station at a normal walking pace and even picking up a free copy of the Metro newspaper. He was wearing a denim jacket.

His family's solicitor, Harriet Wistrich, said the disclosures meant police had no reason to suspect Mr de Menezes was a suicide bomber, beyond the fact that he came out of a house under surveillance.

She told BBC Breakfast: "It raises very, very serious questions about the shoot-to-kill policy and shows immediate questions need to be asked about whether this policy should be in operation and how dangerously wrong it can go.

"He was not carrying a rucksack. He simply had a denim jacket. Was it necessary to shoot him dead as opposed to trying to confront him at an earlier stage.

"There was no indication he was about to blow himself up at all <...> he was just unfortunate to be living in a block of flats that was under surveillance and to look slightly brown-skinned."

A former flying squad commander, John O'Connor, said the leaks would force Sir Ian Blair, the Metropolitan police commissioner, to contemplate resigning.

More........

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1550815,00.html

[KG]

1. heh.

i can recall several drones right here on DU defending the police lies and calling those that weren't falling for it names.

haven't seen them poking there heads out since then. :eyes:

[endarkenment]

5. you haven't looked hard enough

search the various discussions here over the new 'leaks' on the de Menezes execution. They're back.

[still_one]

8. unbelievable

when you justifiy murder, you lose your humanity

[Junkdrawer]

25. Self delete - posted wrong spot...

[still_one]

6. I remember it also

they were saying it was O.K. to shoot first and ask questions later

THIS WAS MURDER, mitigated by racism

[alcibiades_mystery]

43. Not mitigated. Caused.

There is no mitigation here. The police forces are supposed to be trained professionals, not trigger happy imbeciles murdering people in broad daylight for no good reason, then lying about it to save their pasty asses. Despicable and terrifying.

[stewert]

9. KG..........

That's because at the time nobody knew it was all LIES, duh !

hell even I thought they were justified in shooting him when they told us the lies, now we know the truth.

Duh...........

[endarkenment]

13. OK here we go again.

Within the endless flames over this incident it was repeatedly pointed out that the police were contradicting themselves all over the place. Further, the Sunday after the shooting ,the victim was transformed from pakistani suicide bomber to ooops sorry brazilian. That was days after the shooting. They knew within a few minutes, worst case within a few hours, that they shot the wrong person. The discussion wore on for days, and as it wore on lie after lie was admitted by the UK government. And still, even now, even after this last revelation wherein every last statement other than: there was a dead male body on the floor of the train, is disclosed as a deliberate lie, still people are making excuses for what happened and denying what was done.

Were they justified in shooting him if he actually had been pakistani?

[stewert]

15. Lighten up Brother.......

I was talking about right after it happened, not after we knew the police story was full of holes.

Lighten up...........it's not something to get worked up over. I believed that if a guy wearing a winter coat in the middle of summer ran from the Police right after a terrorist attack he could be shot. Then hours later we found out the story had holes in it, now we know for sure it was all lies.

It's amazing how people here over react, calm down and switch to decaf.

[endarkenment]

17. Fascism, the slide into it, is "something to get worked up over".

Resist Fascism.

[RaleighNCDUer]

18. Not a winter coat,

a denim jacket.

Which in London, even in July, is far from unusual. Think San Francisco in July. Same thing.

[endarkenment]

19. I think his point

is that if only de Menezes was a pakistani running from the police wearing arctic winter gear with wires hanging out of it sweating profusely with a detonator switch in his hand yelling allah akbar(sic) and looking all wild eyed and deranged then it would have been ok to blow his brains out while pinning him down on the floor of the train. If only. If only pigs could fly.

Resist Fascism. The de Menezes execution was a training mission and we were the ones being trained.

[Karenina]

24. Indeed. Trained to accept

as "neccessary for security" the summary executions of even ever-slightly-so-brown people. I advise mass cancellations of subscriptions to tanning salons. ;-)

[Art_from_Ark]

20. "Shoot first, ask questions later"

is always the wrong policy in a civilized society-- especially when the suspect is already subdued.

[0rganism]

23. in what sense is this "not something to get worked up over"?

If you're not hopping mad at the very least over believing lies that were used by paid public officials to provide media cover for the public murder in broad daylight of an unarmed civilian by police, then maybe it's time to switch back to caffeine. You were fooled, and those same fuckers will do their level best to fool you again and again and again until you get mad enough to stop listening.

ALWAYS treat ANY statements by police in the matter of deaths they cause with at least a pinch of skepticism. It's CYA, CYA, CYA, without exception. Even in the cases where the killings are legal and/or thoroughly justified by necessity, I expect the police to exaggerate the scenario to make their position as airtight as possible. You will always hear the cops' side of the story in the press, always, and the media will unquestioningly back up the police at every opportunity. You cannot hear the victim's side of events in cases of wrongful death, and you will find that any witnesses who contradict the police version of events in such cases are quickly marginalized by the pro-police media.

[Taxloss]

33. Where are the people making excuses now?

"And still, even now, even after this last revelation wherein every last statement other than: there was a dead male body on the floor of the train, is disclosed as a deliberate lie, still people are making excuses for what happened and denying what was done."

Where?

[endarkenment]

34. Well right up above you

"Lighten up...........it's not something to get worked up over. I believed that if a guy wearing a winter coat in the middle of summer ran from the Police right after a terrorist attack he could be shot. Then hours later we found out the story had holes in it, now we know for sure it was all lies."

And I think that you have shared a similar sentiment. It is all wrong. There is no justification for what happened. The 'but what if he...' crap is, in my opinion, making excuses for what was done.

Resist Fascism.

[Taxloss]

38. You know, I acknowledge the fact that you might be right.

That's your opinion - I have mine. What really bother me about this kind of post and this kind of thread is that you and posters like you can often be very insulting and dismissive towards people like me who believe this was a horrific accident. The reason I feel that way is because whereas I feel suitably chagrined that the version of events I chose to trust in the hours after this atrocity turned out to be a tissue of lies, I get the strong feeling that even when the IPCC discerns this is an instance of horrible incompetence, posters here will howl cover-up, maintain their original stories, and call anyone who disagrees a fascist or a freeptard apologist. Thinking that is all very well, but you have to understand that as the majority holds that view, it seems - at least, the majority of those happy to enter discusion - it can create a somewhat threatening climate for those who think differently.

[lumpy]

28. Is killing by governments without due process

justified? Perhaps when there is a clear and present danger? Assasination is a fascistic tool for disposing of enemies, something 'civilized' nations abhor. The policy set down by British authorities: if the person fits the description of a suspected terrorist shoot to kill and deal with the consequences later. Saddamistic.

[endarkenment]

36. exactly.

This is the underlying text of this discussion. I and others claim that we are in the process of a transformation of our state from oligarchy-corrupted democratic republic into outright fascism. (By 'our state' I mean the conglomeration of the anglo-saxon alliance within the big industrial democracies, i.e. the USA and the UK.) Are we going to be the boiled frog, or are we going to resist fascism?

I've made my choice.


Resist Fascism.

[still_one]

2. do you think if it happened here the press would report the lies?

[jsamuel]

4. no

[still_one]

7. I agree, they still haven't come straight about Iraq

[jsamuel]

3. I say QUESTION EVERYONE ON EVERYTHING.

Some people prefer to take police officers' word for it. I don't...

[MadHound]

10. Hell, I learned that lesson when I was a child, forty years ago

Never, ever take the polices' word on any such matters. It has been proven time and again that they will lie and try to cover their ass any way possible.

And you would think that any intelligent human would have come to that same conclusion by now, for there have been entirely too many examples to list here, sad to say.

[stewert]

11. London Police......

it is now clear the London police lied to cover up the shooting of an innocent man. I did not expect that from the London police, I expect it from our police, but not them.

Now I know better and I will never believe anything they say again, unless it is confirmed by 2 or 3 other sources who have some credibility.

We expected the London Police to be honest, that was our mistake. They are no better than the Bush administration. When they make a mistake they try to deny it and cover it up, instead of just telling the truth.

Now they can never be trusted again, just like Bush and the white house.

[mrfrapp]

32. London Police...

"We expected the London Police to be honest, that was our mistake."

I have no idea where you got this idea that the London Police are paragons of virtue. The MacPherson Report which concluded that the Metropolitan Police suffers from "institutional racism", makes for intersting reading.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2965399.stm

Another more recent case concerns the blatent brutality of police in Manchester. Amazingly, even with actual CCTV footage of the beating taking place, no charges were bought against the officer in question

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/4131798.stm


Of course, all of this pales in comparison to the execution of Menezes.

[fighttheevilempire]

37. Ask an Irishman...

... if you really want to know how much you should trust British military and police. Long before there was an IRA or for that matter an independent Irish nation there was a Briton named Cromwell. He'd make the prison guards at Abu Gharaib blush. Massacres where whole towns were slaughtered.

"It has pleased God to bless our endeavour at Drogheda ... the enemy were about 3,000 strong in the town. I believe we put to the sword the whole number. This hath been a marvelous great mercy. ... In this very place (St. Peter's Church), a thousand of them were put to the sword, fleeing thither for safety ... And now give me leave to say how this work was wrought. It was set upon some of our hearts that a great thing should be done, not by power or might, but by the spirit of God. And is it not so, clearly?" ~Letter from Cromwell to the Speaker of the House of Commons.

And Parliament unanimously made Oct. 2nd, 1649 a day of Thanksgiving for the slaughter!

[LibertyorDeath]

48. "We expected the London Police to be honest, that was our mistake."

What's this we

Yes there was a group of how should I say this

"more gullible duers"

that bought what the London Police were saying.

but even a cursory glance at what they were selling

should have left anyone with a modicum of common sense

Laughing their F ass off.

Some people tend to believe what the police say or what anyone in a position of authority says.

That is a mistake.

[radwriter0555]

12. damn. Shot in the head while seated? He pissed someone off... and knew

something, apparently.

Poor sap. Must have seen too much.

[Junkdrawer]

27. Starting to look that way, huh?

I remember posting: The Man Who Knew Too Much

[LisaL]

44. Sure. That's why they waited until he got on a train to kill him

in front of witnesses and cameras. Cause he knew too much.
:sarcasm:

[moodforaday]

14. The lesson to remember

The democratically elected government LIED. Media LIED, by parrotting the government. (What was so hard about interviewing people who were on that train?). The majority of comments in MSM were along the lines of "it was tragic, but this is what happens in war" and "why did he run?", and "why was he wearing that thick coat?" They tried to SMEAR de Menezes by alleging his visa had expired. Now we learn the truth only because the truth was LEAKED to the media, and the media WENT ON with the story.

Think of what other lies we have been told.

Remember Jean Charles de Menezes and remember how we were lied to about the death of an innocent man.

[Gay Green]

39. What? There's still a place where the media gets the truth in a leak and

puts it out into the Universe? :o

[ramblin_dave]

16. What? There's still a place where people resign when

a screw up occurs on their watch?

[Art_from_Ark]

21. Remember, the police commissioner is only being made to "contemplate"

resigning.

[The Stranger]

22. Murder.

[0rganism]

30. Murder most foul

[Junkdrawer]

26. Bet if you polled Americans....

The overwhelming majority would have never heard the story and those who did would remember, in this order:

1.) He was a terrorist

2.) It was a tragic mistake he brought on by his running from police

3.) The actual story (tiny, tiny, minority)


Any takers... :shrug:

29. lies

It sounds like a case of keystone cops. Total incompetence and then cover-up. :(

[The Stranger]

31. One more recommendation for greatest . . .

[drduffy]

35. lies and lies and

lies and treason. The 'officials' lie. The police and military officials lie. The media 'lie like rugs' as we said when we were children. The government has made a fine art of lying. Repubs are consitutionally incapable of doing anything but lie (other than those who are deluded and believe the idiocies they vomit). And half the democrats in congress are not much different. If I watched TV and discovered somebody actually telling the truth (other than Cindy S or similar) I'd probably pee my pants.




bushco - MIHOP 9/11; Bush the male: a liar, a traitor, a coward, a POS.

[Festivito]

40. There might have been reason to shoot him, but not to lie about it.

What reason does anyone have about WHY THEY LIED?

It certainly doesn't make people feel safer, doesn't aid national security -- in fact national security is diminished by having the truth drip out later.

WHY LIE?

[Warren Stupidity]

41. Oh? Do tell. What was the reason? nt.

[Festivito]

45. There MIGHT have been reason.

But, after the lies, truthful reasons become hidden in a sea of words further confused by more human errors in word and deed.

They had their paltry reasons. They did not react in a paltry manner.

Emerging from a suspect building, not discerning English commands might have been reasons for concern, but, why were they enough to kill, and will these and other reasons remain valid in review that it would not happen again. The lying puts future correction in jeopardy. The killing is terrible exacerbated by the uncertainty brought by lies.

They should concentrate on why there seemed to be a need to lie, and to lie so quickly.

[Warren Stupidity]

46. I don't think you have gotten it yet.

"not discerning English commands might have been reasons for concern".

There were no warnings given in English or any other language. The team that executed him was trained to do exactly what they did: kill without warning by shooting the target in the head. Google Operation Kratos. The execution was by direct order and by policy. The policy remains in place.

[Festivito]

49. I did not see in this article that there was no verbal contact.

I recall early reports of his not understanding verbal commands, but, one, I don't recall from where, and, two, I used MIGHT to indicate my lack of certainty.

Perhaps you know of another source that states that there was no verbal contact -- none.

One additional thought is that the lying will give more ground for the de Menezes family to sue, while it may sidestep suit against the policy itself.

In the mean time I'm certain the police are not as trigger happy as they were weeks ago. The policy will change after the report is finished. Hopefully nothing more will happen until then. I'm sure we'd both like to see it change faster, but we live in a morass of humans.

I have family that use those underground lines, and I have many wonderful Brazillian friends. This whole situation bothers me greatly.

[alcibiades_mystery]

42. Don't worry: One pro-shooting DUer has a new theory

de Menezes was an immigrant electrician who sent money home and took a vacation in Paris. Therefore, he must be a cocaine dealer. I shit you not. This was actually spouted on these very boards, in all seriousness.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4375711&mesg_id=4375721

[Karenina]

47. That poster has no concern about the policy

being a self-described middle-aged woman with an upper class accent. I shit you not. :eyes::wow::eyes: