Clinton or Hagel in 2008?

[arewenotdemo]

If Hillary Clinton maintains her stay the course crusade ("We've been in Korea for 50 years, we are still in Okinawa") and Chuck Hagel calls for an American withdrawal from Iraq, whom would you vote for if they were the 2008 presidential candidates?

<Hagel, a Vietnam veteran, acknowledged the U.S. military presence was becoming harder and harder to justify. He believes Iraq faces a serious danger of civil war that would threaten Middle East stability, and said there is little Washington can do to avert this.

"We are seen as occupiers, we are targets. We have got to get out. I don't think we can sustain our current policy, nor do I think we should," he said at one stop.>

http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-08-18T153227Z_01_SCH854948_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-IRAQ-HEARTLAND-C-COL.XML

[MissWaverly]

1. How about none of the above

Please let's have a real choice in '08. Someone with a clean slate.

[Dinger]

38. Yup, (3rd party:)How About The Democratic Wing Of The Democtatic Party?

Should have been an "other" category.

[justinsb]

2. I'd vote 3rd party n/t

[OrwellwasRight]

7. Me too. Where's the Peace and Freedom candidate? nt.

[arewenotdemo]

9. Sorry. 3rd party now included in poll.

Also, I know 2008 is a long ways off and Iraq may be less of an issue. OTOH, the issue could be the entire Middle East considering what the criminals currently in power may attempt.

[OrwellwasRight]

13. Thanks for adding another choice. nt.

[Inspired]

3. Iraq isn't the only issue....

I could NEVER vote for a Republican. Hillary is only pandering with her statements. I don't believe for a minute that she really feels this way.

I can't stomach either one but my vote will always be against a Republican.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

4. Third choice: Hiri kiri.

[marylanddem]

5. I wish Hillary & Bill would go away

everytime I hear someone contemplating her running for President I am convinced this is a Republican ploy to insure yet another Democratic defeat. She is unelectible, period.

[longship]

6. Ridiculous choice.

They are one in the same.

No vote.

[drfresh]

35. Like Bush/Gore?-nt

[benddem]

8. neither n/t

[Autonomy]

10. Wait a minute...

this site allows posts that back Republicans? I know people are angry at Hillary for toeing the line on the Iraq war, but she is aligning herself politically to have a chance at winning the presidency in 2008. A female Democrat MUST move toward the center and belie any accusations of being on the fringe to have a chance in a national election. Only then would she be able to pursue issues like national health care (which most people support), gun control (which most people support), and responsible use of the military, which most people support. We're losing elections for more than just Republican voting fraud; we've also been losing because of fractured leftwing coalitions and lack of unity in carrying the message. Remember 2000?

I know I'm new here at DU, but I know that if this poll was posted on freakrepublic, anyone who voted for Hillary would be permanently banned. We should learn a lesson on how to win politically from the group that now runs the country.

[Mr_Spock]

11. You got it right there - this is a baiting thread and I won't vote

And you are correct that we are not supposed to promote the conservative agenda here. This post is just a stab a Hilary, who, like you said, is simply positioning herself as she ought to. These same smart asses would vote for her in a heatbeat if she actually was running against Hagel. This may be the worst post I've ever seen on DU.

[arewenotdemo]

24. thanx for the "baiting" compliment

In 36 years I've never voted Repuke for president (did so once in a Georgia senatorial race to help unseat segregationist Dixiecrat).

And I consider Ralph Nader to be the definition of pariah.

I voted for Hagel in this poll but would consider going Socialist Party.

What I WILL NOT do is vote for any candidate that makes the sort of mindless, glib comment that Clinton made. 50 years??? Of what we're doing NOW to Iraq???? She also rattled her saber toward Iran when she was in Iraq, if you'll recall.

I acknowledge that my vote for Kerry was faith-based (on Iraq) and could only shake my head when he continued his "we must succeed in Iraq" rhetoric in his concession speech. It would require a much bigger leap of faith on my part to think that Hillary doesn't share at least some of the Neocon vision.

I don't care if Hagel is a Repuke, he's a Vietnam vet, wounded in action, who later studied the history of that war and concluded that it was based on lies and immoral. When he talks about this war I don't believe it's simply "positioning".

Why should women get a pass on the issue? Chickenhawks are detestable no matter their sex.

I intend to work for Clark come 2008; I'm just afraid that the choice could be Clinton or Hagel, hence the poll.

[Mass]

27. Hagel is also prolife, anti gay, and a true conservative

So, he is certainly better than many Republicans, but I would choose a Democrat ANY day (except Zell Miller).

[OrwellwasRight]

12. I remember 2000.

And I don't remember it having anything to do with fractured leftwing coalitions. I remember it having to do with Katherine Harris purging black voters in Florida and with the SC selling out to the party that nominated most of them in order to put shrubbie into power.

I see your point about putting a Repub into a poll; I do think it was for effect only, though.

However, we better be careful about what lessons we learn "about how to win politically." I hope you are not advocating whisper campaigns, homosexual insinuations, violations of campaign laws, and hate and fear mongering.

And as for women having to move to the center, if it didn't work for Gore or Kerry, what makes you think it will work for the mightily hated Hillary?? Better that she take a stand and win or lose on her real merits.

[Autonomy]

16. Hell with Katherine Harris

She would not have mattered if Nader had not received almost 100,000 votes in Florida alone. That's the fractured left I was referring to, and it started with the myth that Bush and Gore were "the same". I don't think anyone now believes that those two candidates were the same? Let's not make the same mistake again.

[OrwellwasRight]

20. Greg Palast: Best Democracy Money Can Buy

But I guess you can say it doesn't matter that blacks were disenfranchised if you want.

Same mistake? How about the mistake that we have to look like Republicans to beat them? How about the mistake that we can't take a stand because we might offend some potential voter.

They didn't win by moving toward us. Moving to the center only gives them more credibility.

They didn't win by being afraid to offend. They take a stand and espouse it. We should do it too!

What is it with all the DLC-type arguments tonight? I'm depressed.

[Autonomy]

29. Sure it matters

that many people were wrongly denied their voting rights, and someone should pay by going to jail. But we would not be having this discussion if it were not for the split on the left giving the Republican fraud a chance to make a difference.

Man, I cannot believe I am having this same argument again. I thought after 2000 people would have learned. Look at the self-contradictions in your argument: first you say looking like a repub is a mistake, then you say "they take a stand... We should too!" Your inconsistency is showing.

You're depressed tonight? I was depressed by this argument 5 years ago! Why don't we try being depressed by Bush, instead. Seems like a better target for self-destructive anguish.

[OrwellwasRight]

33. Not inconsistent, there's a difference between

copying their POLICIES (which suck) and learning from their presentation skills (which have been sadly effective).

True self-analysis involves taking in all information and separating the wheat from the chaff. In my book, moving to the center is the chaff.

You can't believe that you are "having this argument again?" How many such in depth conversations have you had in so few posts? And what, you believe that Kerry just wasn't center enough? We've ridden that centrist train and it is a dead end.

But more importantly,

"But we would not be having this discussion if it were not for the split on the left."

I am not sure if you meant that as horribly as it comes across. So the disenfranchisement of blacks would not matter if Gore would have won???? Are you kidding me? Disenfranchisement and voter fraud ALWAYS matter. RACISM always matters.

While there is a lower class, I am in it. Eugene V. Debs.

Finally,

"split on the left"

You seem to keep referring to the fact that Nader garnered a lot of votes. I wonder why he did. Perhaps because Gore abandoned the party's principles and moved toward the right? Had he not done so, there would not have been so many defectors on the left. The so-called "split" did not come out of thin air. This reinforces my point that this talk of abandoning our progressive principles is self-destructive. Moreover, had Gore been able to take his own state, he would have been President.

Furthermore, your argument holds no water because it blames the entire Florida debacle on Nader voters. What about all those votes for Buchanan? Butterfly ballot or not, had even several hundred of those gone to Kerry, he would have won. What about the Supreme Court decision? I guess none of these were factors. Just Nader voters.

Been there, done that.

Quit bashing the progressives. You'll find that there are a significant number of folks here who would dispute your notion that "a female Democrat must move to the center."

[Autonomy]

37. Five points

1. I don't reply to being accused of racism, homophobia, etc. Your attempt to imply that by espousing "winning" I must be some sort of Rove-monster is, in itself, a Rovian slime trick.

2. One more time: yes, the purging of the voter rolls was a very bad thing, and that alone would have made the difference for the presidency. What you don't seem to understand is that crying about the depths other side is willing to sink to does us no good. We can win through unity, and only then will Dems have the power to fix the vote tampering and electoral fraud.

3. LOL. So few posts? Do you think DU is the only political forum in the world? Little perspective: when I was having this argument with Green Party folks in 2000 there was no DU. And I was already a political veteran by that point.

4. Gore "abandoned the party", so you voted Bush into office. Brilliant. With friends like you we don't really need Republicans... until it's time to start a war or something.

5. Kerry lost for many reasons, mostly to do with the zeitgeist of post-9/11 hysteria. But you seem to forget that Bill Clinton won TWICE by taking the center. We will have the presidency again ONLY by using his methods. It's more a math thing than an emotional issue.

[Telly Savalas]

15. Supporting the occupation is moving away from the center and towards

the far right.

If Hagel can win the presidency while opposing the war, then a Democrat should be able to as well.

Welcome to DU, by the way. :hi:

[FreedomAngel82]

14. To put it simple

I don't trust Hagel. If Hillary was to come out against Iraq I'd go for her. But I don't trust Hagel at all. He's a twenty year something Bush family friend, his ties to ES&S machines and more.

[Telly Savalas]

17. Nor do I.

You can judge a man by the company he keeps. If Hagel was fit to be president, he would have left the circus we call the Republican Party a long time ago.

[Strelnikov_]

18. Agree. Hagel Is Positioning Himself

Nixon also had an election year plan to get us out.

[me b zola]

19. Oh pleez. Cease & desist.

:wtf:

[oasis]

21. How about a 4th Party to accommodate single issue lefties?.... Oops that's

the 3rd party. :spank:

[MisterP]

22. it's more of an 1,800le-and-growing issue

[VADem11]

23. Clinton

Any democrat is better than any repug. I'll want my vote to count.

[fedupinBushcountry]

25. This poll is ridiculous

Wake me up, am I on DEMOCRATIC Underground ? So who here is really a progressive? So you would vote for someone who voted for the bankruptcy bill, for CAFTA, for the NRA,for all the radical right judges and the list goes on.

Before you post another ridiculous poll like this read the rules of DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND, especially rule #1

Who We Are: Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office.

[no_to_war_economy]

26. go GREEN

[oasis]

30. Yes please go. Green vote = Red victory.

:hi:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

28. Green. I don't vote for Republicans (R) or (D).

Hillary's support for the war and occupation are nauseating indications of just how ambition overrides decency.

[mmonk]

31. Probably

Hagel or 3rd party.

[cascadiance]

32. Bernie Sanders!

He fits in as a third party candidate!

[mmonk]

34. May as well

[julialnyc]

36. thinks we should talk with Iran

Republican senator calls for talks with Iran
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050819/pl_nm/iran_usa_dc

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Republican Party foreign policy expert Sen. Chuck Hagel (news, bio, voting record) is calling for the United States to open talks with Iran's new president and has dismissed President George W. Bush's talk of a military option against Tehran as an empty and foolish threat.
cont......

[Moderator]

39. Locking...

This is a Democratic website. Two
of the choices presented here are
not acceptable. This site should
not be used to advocate for
Republicans, Greens or third
party candidates.

From the rules:

Who We Are: Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office.

More here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html