My understanding of where this Wilson leak thing came from, and why

[WilliamPitt]

I don't think they were deliberately trying to burn a CIA agent. My understanding is that the leaking of Plame as an agent was to buttress the White House contention that Wilson got the Niger job because his wife got it for him. They were trying to undermine his reporting of the Niger 'evidence' by charging him with nepotism. This was the angle fed to the journalists who were cold-called.

I think this is going to come down to a couple of White House officials who tried to smear Wilson, failed in that smear, and unleashed a hurricane because they did not take into account what releasing Plame's information would open up. I don't think it ever occured to them. I'd bet they didn't know what it was she did, but only knew that she was CIA and recommended him for the job.

It isn't hard to find out if someone is CIA if you work for the White House. It IS hard to find out if someone is a deep cover operative. They could have called, gotten the answer, and not been told what she did. Ergo, they didn't know the shitstorm they would trigger, because they perhaps assumed that no 'chick' would be an operative. It'd be hilarious if old-school mysoginy pulled this house down.

In other words, more rank f*cking stupid incompetence.

This does not take away from what they did, what they were trying to do, the intimidation factor, or the rest. It just amuses me that they were so dumb. For want of a shoe and all that...

[alcuno]

1. How did they know she was CIA?

If she was an operative/agent, that information is not even kept on file and certainly not released. Who told them she was CIA? Is this what happens when Cheney and Libby spend time hanging out at CIA Headquarters?

[Walt Starr]

7. Give alcuno a cigar!

There's the coverup. The polticos in the Bush Admin who shopped this story to 6 journalists had no idea Plame was CIA, they were fed the info by somebody with the clearance...

WE HAVE A FUCKING COVER UP!

The only question now is, "how high up does the coverup go?" We know Rove was shopping the story, who fed him the info about Plame? As much as I'd like to say it was Cheney, I doubt he'd be that stupid.

[HFishbine]

9. Ahhh

Great insight Walt. I agree with Will's take on the motiviation, but I hadn't given much thought to the obvious question you raise if the first finger is pointed at a staffer. How indeed would they know?

Anybody know how high up one has to be to know that someone is CIA?

[Walt Starr]

19. Well,....there is a short list who would know

Top down, it would probably look like this:

George W. Bush - Has the clearance. May have been told at some point but probably wouldn't remember because he was too busy presidentin'.

Dick (Head) Cheney - Has the clearance, evil enough to out a CIA agent but not stupid enough in my opinion.

Colin Powell - He's the bloody head of the State Department. Of course he has the clearance. He may be vindictive enough to set Rove and Libby up like this, but I guarantee Rove would take him down with him.

Condaleeza Rice - Definitely has the clearance. Remember the deer in the headlights look on Sunday? We may have a winner here, and she has less common sense than a rock, so Rove would be able to walk all over her.

Donald Rumsfield - Evil enough, but like Cheney, I don't think he's that stupid.

That's a short list, can anybody add any more?

[WilliamPitt]

21. Rove would have the clearance, too

Politics = ALL-IMPORTANT GODHEAD in this White House. That means Rove, senior political advisor, is in on everything. Everything. Because everything gets the political spin.

Ken O'Donnell, who was JFKs Rove, was in on everything, too. He was right there in everything during the Cuban Missile Crisis. This is not uncommon, and for the most powerful guy in the White House (standard description of Rove), it would be required.

[ModerateMiddle]

67. My guess would be Cheney, then

Rove might have been involved, I certainly wouldn't put much past him so far as vindictive actions are concerned.

But it makes sense that if it was Cheney's office that was being tied with Wilson, that Cheney would have said, "Who the fuck is this Joe Wilson and why would we send him?" That is probably how he got the information. Bring in Rove somehow, perhaps in talks between Libby and Rove? and you've got the scenario you describe.

I too don't believe that they knew she was undercover. But it really doesn't matter, because in the end, they simply didn't care.

[WilliamPitt]

75. It was Rove

Find the threads about Juliam Borger from the Guardian here in GD. It was Rove.

[Emboldened Chimp]

92. Rove is the likeliest culprit

He's notorious for attacking without care or thought of the consequences. It had to be him.

[Eloriel]

96. Rove is likeliest, esp. since he did the same thing once before

he lost his job that time (presumably), and we'll see if he loses his job this time.

Eloriel

[Must_B_Free]

36. Bob Novak

he said he called the CIA and asked. They said she was an employee and not to print it.

This is what Novak has claimed.

Their spin seems to be - well they should have told us it would be damaging to print it, but on the other hand, this is like them advertising that she is a cover op. The CIA simply telling Novak "don't print it" should have been enough of a direction to a veteretan reporter with 43 years experience in Washington.

Of course this doesn't explain the other 6 reporters, but with enough threats, they should be able to keep them silent.

[Melinda]

109. Josh Marshall has more to this:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/">Talking Points:

Another big problem with Novak's comments on Crossfire today. Today (9/30/03) he said ...

"Nobody in the Bush administration called me to leak this. In July I was interviewing a senior administration official on Ambassador Wilson's report when he told me the trip was inspired by his wife, a CIA employee working on weapons of mass destruction"

But then there's this passage in a July 22nd article in Newsday ...
Novak, in an interview, said his sources had come to him with the information.

"I didn't dig it out, it was given to me," he said. "They thought it was significant, they gave me the name and I used it."

-------------

I'd say Nofacts is spinning himself deeper and deeper.

[Brian Sweat]

48. Tom Ridge would probably have clearance.

Also the Secretary of the department which the CIA is under would know.

Andrew Card would probably have clearance.

Anyone who reports directy to one of these high level people might have clearance.

[never cry wolf]

64. What about the AG??

A$$kkkrap hisownself?? Would he have clearance??

[bearfartinthewoods]

66. last night and no i don't have a link because i was half asleep but

i heard someone say it was an "open secret" in DC among their friends and friends of friends because if someone won't tell you where they work, everyone knows odds are you work for the CIA.

[WilliamPitt]

77. So what?

Journalists knew about the Manhattan Project. Didn't print it.

[bearfartinthewoods]

86. s'cuse me?

i just told you what i heard on the tube. hell, i'm still fuming because i'm not supposed to blame novak. (based on a thread last night saying to not demonize novak or some such.)

i'm with poppy on this one! :evil grin: TREASON!!!!

[WilliamPitt]

90. 'So what'

was not a swat. Sorry if it sounded so. :)

[bearfartinthewoods]

99. gotcha

no problem

[snippy]

103. You left out the man in charge of the White House Iraq Group.

I think nearly every single fact and allegation about the entire Wilson affair indicates that it was an operation of the White House Iraq Group, or WHIG. The WHIG was formed by White House Chief of Staff Andy Card in August of 2002 to market the invasion. This included the creation and coordination of all of the lies to support the invasion, including the yellowcake and other nuclear weapons lies.

The group met weekly in the Situation Room. Among the regular participants were Karl Rove, the president's senior political adviser; communications strategists Karen Hughes, Mary Matalin and James R. Wilkinson; legislative liaison Nicholas E. Calio; and policy advisers led by Rice and her deputy, Stephen J. Hadley, along with I. Lewis Libby, Cheney's chief of staff.

The first days of September would bring some of the most important decisions of the prewar period: what to demand of the United Nations in the president's Sept. 12 address to the General Assembly, when to take the issue to Congress, and how to frame the conflict with Iraq in the midterm election campaign that began in earnest after Labor Day.

A "strategic communications" task force under the WHIG began to plan speeches and white papers. There were many themes in the coming weeks, but Iraq's nuclear menace was among the most prominent.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A39500-2003Aug9

The WHIG not only chose what lies to use, it also chose when, where, and how the lies would be disseminated. And by whom.

The fact that two people in the administration were shopping the story indicates that a decision to disclose the information had been made. It was not casually revealed during the course of conversation. It also indicates delegation and coordination by someone. Several of the participants in the WHIG would know of Plame's status with the CIA, or that status may have been more widely known.

If a decision about a communication concerning any of the Iraq lies was made in the White House, and if the job of making that communication was delegated to two or more people and coordinated, then the WHIG was involved. That means the White House Chief of Staff, Andy Card.

All that being said, I doubt either Card or Rove will take the fall. Some lower level staffer will admit being responsible. There may be a pattern similar to revealing who was responsible for the 16 words being in the SOTU speech, which also was a WHIG operation. (First it was A, then it was B, and finally it was C.) I heard Pat Buchanan say this evening that he had heard that a name other than Rove's was being shopped as the person responsible.

[Eloriel]

95. I disagree

I think it was far more sinister than Will imagines. It was to shut Wilson up and to let would-be leakers know they put their own lives or the lives of their loved ones in danger if they dare cross the Bush Cabal.

These are NOT nice people. They're mafioso-style thugs. They've killed before, dammit. We KNOW that. We just don't know how many.

Eloriel

[Bucky]

34. Forget stupidity

It's not stupidity that got them thinking they had the right to do this. It was arrogance. That and the belief that the laws just don't apply to certain people. Unless it actually was Rove, I think in this case the perps will prove not to be above the law.

Rove is arrogant enough to do this, but he's lived in Capital City long enough to know how to set up a fall guy. If he can pin it on Condi's administrative assistant, they may end up killing two birds wtih one stone.

Cheney? I don't buy it. Cheney and Rove are rivals to some extent. Rice and Wolfowitz are the ones who tie hard core Bush politicos to the national security establishment. I'd look at top DoD appointees and the NSC staff. After all, didn't Oliver North once prove in court that NSC is not an outfit that deals with intelligence?

[leftchick]

46. stupid, no...arrogant, yes...

I believe cheney is behind all of this. He has gotten away with every fucking illegal activity he has done pre-White House up to today. Why the hell would he even consider he could not get away with this?

[starscape]

61. deleted - wrong place (n/t)

--

[Bandit]

104. How long has she been an operative?

Remember most of this Cabal are leftovers from Reagan and Bush 1. They would still have that knowlege even if they no longer carried the clearance. I guess it may be Poindexter.

[WilliamPitt]

8. She's been CIA for a while

It probably went like this.

July 2003...

"Who is this Wilson guy?"

"He was an ambassador to Gabon."

"How'd he get the job?"

"His wife recommended him. She's CIA."

Remember it was the CIA who sent him in the first place.

[HFishbine]

11. "His wife recommended him. She's CIA."

Okay, but Walt's question stands. How did the speaker know she was CIA? Are you saying it was just common knowledge around the White House? Wouldn't someone with clearance either have been the speaker or had to have talked to the speaker?

[WilliamPitt]

13. I have some pretty cool sources on all this

that I can't name. It isn't hard to find out if someone is CIA if you work for the White House. It IS hard to find out if someone is a deep cover operative. They could have called, gotten the answer, and not been told what she did. Ergo, they didn't know the shitstorm they would trigger, because they perhaps assumed that no 'chick' would be an operative. It'd be hilarious if old-school mysoginy pulled this house down.

[Beetwasher]

49. That's EXACTLY what I think

They thought "Oh this is Wilson's chick, she's probably just some low level appointee at a desk"....Yup, mysoginy...

[HFishbine]

68. Another Take

Will,

Maybe it wasn't so much the mysoginistic view that some chick couldn't be an operative. Recall the context of the time.

Cheney's credibility was in danger, remember? Cheney was saying he had no direct knowledge of Wilson's activities and to prove it, Novak writes a column that backs that up by saying it was Wilson's wife who arranged it. Cheney didn't send Wilson, Wilson's wife did. And why would Wilson's wife be in a position to nominate Wilson? Because she's a CIA operative.

From Novak's column:

"Wilson never worked for the CIA, but his wife, Valerie Plame, is an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction. Two senior administration officials told me Wilson's wife suggested sending him to Niger to investigate the Italian report. The CIA says its counter-proliferation officials selected Wilson and asked his wife to contact him."

This has now become the most plausible motive in my mind. That it was an attempt to bolster Cheney's deniability and misdirect the original impetus of Wilson's mission from Cheney to Palme.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

102. it would also be hilarious if

it was brought down by someone named scooter!

[IkeWarnedUs]

107. Will . . .

Have any of your sources come to this conclusion? Not trying to minimize your analysis - in fact it sounds pretty plausible to me. But I wonder if your sources share your thoughts?

[alcuno]

29. How'd he get the job?

I heard a different version. CIA decided to send him because he was the former ambassador to Iraq and had served in Africa and was familiar with those responsible for the uranium there. I think it was Fineman who said that CIA says they only asked her how to get in touch with him; not that she recommended him.

Who told them she was CIA and left off the "operative" part?

And Robert Novak used the word "operative" which he is now back-tracking on.

[karlschneider]

74. Seems mighty odd to me that the CIA would have to "inquire" how to get

in touch with the spouse of one of their own employees......


:eyes:

[DinahMoeHum]

2. Remember what happened to Al Capone. . .

he was eventually taken down on a little shit-ass thing called income tax evasion.

:kick:

[ewagner]

3. Having read some background

...about Rove, I tend to agree. They seem to be very shortsighted. However, I do think that they have given the top levels a certain amount of "plausible deniability" to keep Rove and anybody higher from taking any heat over this.

Note: Bush was back to his cocky, arrogant self in his remarks from Chicago this afternoon. He's got this wired, or at least, he thinks so.

[democrat in Tallahassee]

4. can they possibly be THAT stupid? they can be stupid AND evil, though

If they don't know that outing a CIA agent is a crime, then they should not be allowed anywhere near the WH.
No, I think they knew what they were doing and didn't think the CIA would make a fuss or that the press would cover it.

[DinahMoeHum]

5. Remember what happened to Al Capone. . .

he was eventually taken down and sent to Alcatraz on a little shit-ass offense called "income tax evasion".

:kick:

[Junkdrawer]

6. On the other hand...

When they heard Plame recommended her husband, they could have wanted to purge Plame and her husband from the CIA. (Can you hear it? "So who recommended this Wilson guy anyway...") I imagine nothing makes this crew lose more sleep than the thought of non-partisans in top positions at the CIA.

[Padraig18]

10. That actually makes sense, Will!

I'd never considered that (my mind isn't terribly Machiavellian), but now that you mention it... :)

[sangh0]

12. I tend to agree

I would assume that, as stupid as *they* are, the higher-ups are politically astute to remember than Hanson was almost executed for revealing the names of our spies in Russia. It may very well have been a political appointee. Someone who got the job because someone in their family gave Bush* a ton of loot, and noot because they know what they're doing.

[Crewleader]

14. Now the justice dept is going to handle it

republicans voted down any independent counsel....more Democratic pressures from the candidates, and everyone of us demanding one...you are correct in what you say William, dumb act from whoever.

[GainesT1958]

15. I'd prefer to agree with you on that one, WILL...

And part of me does. However, when one takes into account "Chip" Rove's vindictiveness, and the level he's stooped to in the past with that vindictiveness (see Al Franken's book where he quotes a White House visitor last year overhearing Rove behind a closed office door yelling "I don't care who he is, we are going to F*** him, and I mean F*** him!"), I really do think it's absolutely within Rove's reach of lowness to be perfectly willing to place an under-cover, active-duty CIA agent in danger to exact his twisted revenge. :mad:

Rove would have fit perfectly within Richard Nixon's inner circle, and clearly within Gordon Liddy and Egil Krogh's Plumbers unit. He would be, to paraphrase Chuck Colson, willing to walk over his grandmother to elect Dub in 2000, and in 2004 as well.

With others involved it may well have been sheer stupidity; there's clearly plenty of that to go around in the Occupied West Wing these days, right up to the Squatter-in-Chief, of course. But I'm not willing to give Rove a pass on that score; I'm convinced he MEANT to do the deed he did!x(

B-)

[never cry wolf]

70. He not only would have fit in,

he did fit in.

snip----

He's America's Joseph Goebbels. As a 21-year old Young Republican in Texas, Karl Rove not only pimped for Richard Nixon's chief political dirty tricks strategist Donald Segretti but soon caught the eye of the incoming Republican National Committee Chairman, George H. W. Bush. Rove's dirty tricks on behalf of Nixon's 1972 campaign catapulted Rove onto the national stage. From his Eagle's Nest in the West Wing of the White House, Rove now directs a formidable political dirty tricks operation and disinformation mill.

more:

http://www.counterpunch.org/madsen1101.html

[VelmaD]

16. Not sure what scares me more Will...

the thought that you are wrong and they knew what they were doing and did it deliberately and are the biggest bunch of bastards to ever hold high public office

Or that you are right and our country is being run by a bunch of incompetent boobs who either are incapable of or don't even try to think out the logical results of their actions.

*sigh*
DV

[rustydad]

17. Why not squeeze Novak?

I think that the outing of Plame had to come from high up in the food chain of the Rove Machine. That said I wonder how Novak can escape from liability here. There is a potential for Plame's undercover sources now outed to be killed or dispeared. If so Novak is responsible. It is as if someone leaked to him the codes to airforce one and he published them. There are limits to what a reported can report and I think Novak crossed the line. I hope to see him and Rove goose-steping and in handcuffs. Bob

[WilliamPitt]

18. Because

when you rip down a columnist/journalist for his sources, you fuck the whole process. I am in the same business as Novak, and I hope they DO NOT squeeze him, nor do I hope he knuckles under. There are more important things than these Bush bastards, and if this precedent gets set, we're screwed.

[Padraig18]

20. Hypothetical question, Will

I understand your reasoning, but can a journalist NEVER commit a crime in a situation like this one? Where's the line?

[WilliamPitt]

22. Pretty far back

Someone explained this to me a few weeks ago when this broke. The person who dealt the info broke the law. The writer is just doing his/her job. The question of whether or not the info SHOULD be written about is an ethical one beyond the law.

[Padraig18]

33. I accept that

[KaraokeKarlton]

40. I disagree...I think Novack should do some time for this

Not only did his report jeopardize all kinds of human lives, but it also jeaopardized national security. That in and of itself is deserving of some severe consequences. Yes, the source is the one who did the first "wrong", but anyone with more than one brain cell would have KNOWN the implications of letting this particular cat out of the bag. This is SERIOUS and needs to be treated as such.

[WilliamPitt]

41. Perhaps

but we have bigger fish than Captain Eyebrows to fry at the moment.

[KaraokeKarlton]

Oh, I know that...and they ALL should do some time for it

Anyone with their dirty bony fingers in the mix should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I would have more sympathy for Novak if his behavior hadn't endangered so many people. And even if it turns out that the woman wasn't deep undercover, just the implication puts all foreigners she was associated with in harm's way. Anyone suspected of being a spy for the US in other countries right now with Bush on his "take over the oil of the world" crusade isn't going to bode well for them, whether they are actually guilty of anything or not. It's a given that some people have already died over what Novack wrote. And those responsible for the leak...they deserve double of whatever the maximum is they are supposed to get for this crime.

[AP]

44. But it doesn't look like he violated sec 421

There might be another statute that applies, but it doesn't look like this one applies.

[rustydad]

50. Perhaps not squeeze

But I do think that Novak and his publisher can be held accountable for publishing the story. Whoever leaked to Novak broke the law and Novak broke the law by making the leak public. If someone leaks to a reporter the combination to the safe in the local bank and the reporter makes it public he is breaking the law IMHO. Bob

[sangh0]

24. An important distinction

While the protection of a journalists sources is of importance to all of us, that protection does not extend to journalists who engage in criminal activity. By exploiting a journalists confidentiality, Novak puts those protections in danger. If anything, you should be screaming the loudest for his head.

[never cry wolf]

59. No, no, no, you cannot go after the journalist!!!

If you squeeze Novak and he caves you set back the fifth estate light years!! First, what whistleblower is EVER going to help out a reporter again knowing they may be found out. Second, what reporter is EVER going to publish any info he may get in confidence knowing he may be prosecuted.

We have to coddle and encourage whistleblowers and reporters, especially because I sense the dam is about to burst with people singing all sorts of tunes. Woodward and Bernstein woulda been up shit creek without this protection. This is a MAJOR tool for exposing corruption.

[WilliamPitt]

60. Bingo

Captain Eyebrows gets a pass because he is part of a larger, and vital, whole.

[revcarol]

101. We never would have gotten the Pentagon Papers

or Watergate or Enron info, etc. if we'd allowed the journalists to be compromised by making them out their source.

Leave sqiggy alone and preserve the Constitution.

And I do think it was a desire to get revenge, combined with a total lack of appreciation of what this would do to our national security on the part of "some."

Let's face it. The original leaker knew what she did. If that person is not the same as the leaker to the press, that person who leaked to the press may not have known. The third person may not have known. And Novak just has piss-poor judgment and no ethics.

[Japhy_Ryder]

26. They can't squeeze Novak on this

If anything, they'll do whatever they can to protect him. It does them no good to turn even the conservative press against them. They keep Novak covered, then they ensure that the conservative press gives them even better unbalanced coverage.

There will be a scapegoat, but it'll be Rove before it's Novak.

[HFishbine]

45. Irony?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Novak opposed to the war?

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AP]

30. See my post below...it's a defense if...

the US already publicly disclosed the identity.

Any reporter getting a call from Rove with this information would have the defence that the United States was publicly disclosing her identity prior to their publication.

Also, you have to personally have had access to the classified information, it seems. Repeating something someone else with access said might not qualify.

This seems like a pretty good defense for the reporters even though I can't find anywhere in the statute definining what constitutes the Untited States.

The more interesting question is whether the defendant (whomever he or she ends up being) will use this defense.

[AP]

39. Clarification on why Novak is witness and not potential defendant

To be convicted, you have to have had access to the classified information, or, if not, you have to have had a pattern of trying to disclose identities of covert agents.

Novak doesn't meet either test, unless someone gave him acces to the information and he knew the government was trying to keep the info secret. If someone in the government gave him the actuall files, he could avail himself of sec 422 defense -- the US was publicly disclosing the information, so it didnt' matter.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/50/421.html

[Beetwasher]

53. That being said, I wouldn't put it past the Admin. to squeeze him

or make an example out of him and use this an excuse to subvert the system. It would be par for the course to turn this around and flay Novak and prosecute him because he won't reveal the sources and make this about him...

[Oracle]

100. Like invading a sovereign nation,

or the Supreme Court overruling states rights, so they could stop an election, or keeping a suspected terrorist incarcerated for as long as they choose without concern for civil rights or due process.

[AP]

23. A quick look at the statute, and it looks like...

...you don't have to have the intention to harm intelligence gathering, or anything like that, to be guilty. You simply have to intentionally disclose the information with the knowledge that the iformation reveals the covert identity, and you have to know that the US was trying to protect the person's identity.

Obviously, there are some defenses in there (if Rove made a mistake about whether the US was protecting Plame's identity, he has a defense there).

There's also this confusing defense:

"Sec. 422. - Defenses and exceptions

(a) Disclosure by United States of identity of covert agent

It is a defense to a prosecution under section 421 of this title that before the commission of the offense with which the defendant is charged, the United States had publicly acknowledged or revealed the intelligence relationship to the United States of the individual the disclosure of whose intelligence relationship to the United States is the basis for the prosecution. "

The "United States" isn't defined for this section, as far as I can tell. This would be the defense for the reporters because Rove probably constitutes "the United States", but it's not clear whether this defense is available to Rove.

Hey, one more interesting thing about this statute. It looks like you can't serve concurrent sentences for multiple offenses if convicted, whether under this statute or any other. Therefore, if you were convicted for 6 offenses -- one for each reporter given the information -- you'd have to serve 60 years if you got the full 10 years for each offense..

[RainDog]

105. hey AP

who would try this if it ever got to a trial?

would a military tribunal try treason in a time of war...I doubt it will go that far...

but for a felony, Rove would have a jury trial, and during the discovery phase of the trial would they be able to look into who was trying to intimidate Dick Durbin and the gay Canadian reporter?

would they be able to refer to the Mosbacher incident to show a pattern of behavior?

what about the whisper campaign against McCain in South Carolina?

I'm just wondering how far a lawyer could push disclosure of other nasty deeds since the American public could possibly tune in to this like an OJ trial...and it would be sweet to inform the public of the true nature of the beasts in the W.H.

[skip fox]

25. Not nepotism so much as to

imply that Wilson's trip was self-initiated. Thus . . . he was a maverick all along and went to Niger to undercut the case against Iraq tha the WH was building against Iraq leading up to the war. If "his wife sent him," then thre logic goes, he "asked his wife to send him."


So, yes, Will, I think you're mainly right, though the "nepotism" idea seems wrongly directed. (If Wilson would have been sent by State, and if his wife would have worked at State, then they would have done the same.)

Outing his wife was not as punishment or as a warning so much as a necessity to make this story fly. In their *Scotter Libby and Karl Rove??) joy of undercutting Wilson, they probably neglected to consider the legal ramifications. (I hope they attempt a coverup as hastily as they leaked the CIA information.)

(By the way, Oliphant says she didn't send him. That the Bureau merely asked her for contact information.)

[VelmaD]

27. Love the addition on edit man...

it would be too damn funny if "old-school misogyny" brought them down. I will cackle loud and long and with evil glee if it was something as simple and stupid as not bothering to check out what she actually did just because "she's a girl".

[0007]

88. You got that one right dearie!

So perhaps 'ol karl is the nasty women hater.

[Beetwasher]

31. Hey! See my "Rove is a MORON" thread

I posted the same theory! Are you biting my shit? ;-)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=436436

[WilliamPitt]

35. D'oh!

Sorry, dude. Didn't mean to step on your toes. :(

[Beetwasher]

Ahh, forget it! This post has the Will Pitt seal of approval!

Good enough for me...

[Skittles]

32. I would really like to think

that "senior White House officials" could not POSSIBLY be that ignorant. Then again, we ARE talking about Bush Inc.

[Snellius]

37. Dana Milbank on CNN today said "it was well-known"

in Washington news circles that Wilson's wife was an agent.

[WilliamPitt]

38. Because of the cold-calls?

That is no excuse, regardless. A lot of journalists knew about the Manhattan Project, too. They didn't print it.

[AP]

43. They're trying to set up the defenses. Shows you whose side

Dana Milbank is on.

[msmcghee]

42. After hearing *Bush on the radio just now . .

. . saying how the legislative branch has leakers and the executive branch has leakers and how gosh - it's all so comlicated and all , and we just want to find the leakers whoever they are . . etc, a

. . but especially his voice was very high pitched and full of fear factor. No confidence at all.

I think he was in on the meeting when the decision was discussed. Probably him, Rove and Cheney.

Just my WAG.

On edit:

I have no doubt that this is basically the only type of thing they discuss when they get together with *Bush. Does anyone think *Bush actually has opinions on real policy questions. Can you imagine asking him his opinion on NAFTA exemptions for third world textile producing nations.

No, but let's talk ways to fuck the dems - now he's got a contribution or two.

[Cheswick2.0]

47. Yes, I think they knew exactly what they were doing

No doubt in my mind. I think they were out to warn the intelligence community, to discredit the story and to punish Wilson.

[calimary]

98. Perhaps they were trying to hammer nails in the CIA coffin

because the intel folks had never given them the hard and fast info they wanted to reinforce their case for war. CIA just never fully cooperated with any firm good stuff, don'tyaknow? Better teach 'em a lesson so they'll understand our orders more clearly next time.

[skip fox]

52. and Scooter Libby!

The more involved the better. More chance for mistakes.

Boy, I HOPE they try to cover this up.

[GumboYaYa]

73. I think you hit the nail on the head.

Libby and Cheney knew that Plame was CIA nad how the whole Wilson trip came down since they requested it. Wilson breaks his story in the NYT and Rove comes calling to the VP's office. "Who the hell is Joe Wilson!" Libby lets it slip that Plame was Wilson's wife and she influenced the choice of Wilson. Rove sees political hay to make and has a few underlings start calling the press to push the story. Only the most road hardened media whore of all takes the bait, but it only takes one story.

I detect the hint of a serious conflict between Cheney and Rove. Both operate under the "save my ass first" theory of politics. The whole Plame affair only becomes a story after White House insiders leak a story to the WP. Interestingly enough the leak comes only a week and a half after the Rove machine hangs Cheney out to dry on the issue of Saddam's connection to 9-11. Perchance is Scooter Libby the source for the recent WP story?

Is there a battle Royale brewing between the two most deceitful members of the Bush admin. It sure looks that way to me.

[skip fox]

94. Damn! "Road hardened media whore" is lovely!

Real poetry, there. (And I love the future you implicitly paint.)

:toast:

[PurityOfEssence]

51. You're missing the big picture

As Wilson's said, this was to serve as a warning to other people in the intelligence community who were thinking of coming forward with anything. It's to show all bureaucrats that they will be destroyed financially and professionally if they breathe a word. It's chilling, and as I pointed out elsewhere, it's like leaving hanged deserters along the line of march of an army or hoisting a severed head on the Tower Bridge.

This is, secondarily, to discredit Wilson somewhat, but that's obviously not the main reason. Spokespeople and proxies for the administration saying that it is are deliberately trying to skew attention away from the bigger shot-across-the-bow: saying it's to discredit him just doesn't make much sense, so by stating this as the leaker's hypothetical intent is to cast doubt on the whole thing.

Wilson, once again, was correct.

[WilliamPitt]

56. Oh, no doubt

the intimidation factor is there. Wilson or anyone would be intimidated by a White House a) bandying his wife's name about, and b) working to discredit him.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

72. Exactly. At the same time, David Kelly alive was a hot UK story.

The White House and #10 Downing Street had intelligence whistle-blowers coming out of their ears and they needed to crack the whip and say "enough chatter-we will go after your families." And then David Kelly wasn't alive anymore.

[Snellius]

54. It's almost impossible to believe that Rove was not involved

I'm sure you read the statement by James Moore who wrote "Bush's Brain":http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/03/09/30_moore.html

This WH does not like freelancers or loose cannons. It's difficult to believe that such a concerted pr campaign -- just today a seventh reporter, besides Novak, came forward -- could have been launched by two WH junior flunkies acting on their own.

[WilliamPitt]

58. It was Rove

So saith Julian Borger. There are threads in GD about this.

[MiniMoog]

106. More Juicy stuff, the man who trained Plame

Hi Will

Outrageous, says Larry Johnson in disgust, on the record. Former CIA - I interviewed him along time ago.

Johnson is a Republican to boot.

http://atrios.blogspot.com/
"This not an alleged abuse. This is a confirmed abuse. I worked with this woman. She started training with me. She has been under cover for three decades. She is not as Bob Novak suggested a "CIA analyst." Given that, i was a CIA analyst for 4 years. I was under cover."

And this morsel from WH legal, naming names of the *other* reporters from Josh's blog.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/

"This communication is a follow-up to the directive I sent you this morning regarding the preservation of certain materials in the possession of the White House, its staff, or its employees.

Pursuant to a request from the Department of Justice, I am instructing you to preserve and maintain the following:



3. Contacts with reporters Knut Royce, Timothy M. Phelps, or Robert D. Novak, or any individual(s) acting directly or indirectly, on behalf of these reporters."

Royce and Phelps reported on Iraq for Newsday...

BTW - for a good analysis on the Uranium, SOTU, Cheney, Wilson, Scotter combo-plate, read the impressive blog by
http://xymphorablogspot.com/ from today.

MiniMoog

Edit - hands too fast

[RainDog]

108. so the reporters are...

Novak

the two guys from Newsday

Andrea Mitchell

someone from Time? (didn't they also write they had been approached and also mentioned Newsday when they first reported on this immediately after Novak's column?

Mitchell said she'd been contacted, right?

so that leaves one reporter who isn't known?

[Toby109]

55. A couple of points

1) The other journalists this story was shopped to but refused to take the bait. Why can't they be asked to name the original source? They didn't write the story, ergo no reason not to reveal the source.

2)It sounds like Cheney went to the CIA and asked that they send someone to Niger. CIA Section Chief asks around for suggestions on whom to send. Wilson's wife suggests her husband, a former Ambassador. Sounds logical and not necessarily like nepotism. Nobody twisted the CIA's arm to send WIlson, he was just the best candidate for the job they came up with.

Also yesterday on Crossfire Novak started out asserting that Plame just an "analyst", then it was "some people" told him she was an analyst and later he said something different. Spin, Spin, Spin. Like a fucking top.

[WilliamPitt]

57. They're talking now, and it was Rove

Julian Borger at the Guardian is reporting (audio) that the journalists are saying they were approached by Rove. There are a couple of threads running around GD about it.

[molly]

63. Well, this is going to get VERY interesting

I thought he was smarter or maybe he thinks he's immune.

[skip fox]

62. The Administration is already starting the COVER

by saying many people around DC knew she worked for the Bureau. Thus, Scooter and Karl's assistants can take the fall
and no one need be sought out who "gave" them the info.

Watch out for this bunch. They're sharp, but they're inventing all this on the fly and that's when they'll make mistakes. (After all, that's what happened with Wilson.)

[starscape]

65. Will, what do you see happening next?

If the reporters don't talk, and I really don't see any reason for them to talk, then this can't really move much further, right?

Even a few of those journalists might be champing at the bit to let this thing loose, but if they've been in the biz for awhile, they're first instinct is to protect sources, and to protect their own right to not disclose those sources for an investigation.

It's all speculation, but I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on what to expect.

[Beetwasher]

71. The CIA are the experts at this

I know you asked Will, but I've got some thoughts on this too...

The CIA started this ball rolling and I have to think they are prepared to see this through. They wouldn't have started it without all their ducks in a row. They know that to keep it alive, the press will need a steady diet of new information. I think we can be fairly certain there will be new bombshells released at opportune times in the near future to keep this story alive. These guys know what they're doing. If I were Bushco. I'd be very afraid. This is FAR from over.

[starscape]

76. thanks

I like your take on it, and you may be right!

I just hope the CIA isn't using this as a power play to get something they want from the admin., and will let the accusations drop after some back door negotiation (my cynical mind).

[Beetwasher]

81. I gotta believe they're playing for keeps

They don't take kindly to having an undercover op ousted, nor to being made the scapegoat for Iraq intel, 9/11 etc. There's only so much shit you can take being forced down your throat before there is no negotiation possible...I believe its too late for that...

[WilliamPitt]

78. The reporters are talking

Julian Borger has this at the Guardian. It was Rove.

[Must_B_Free]

79. Court of public opinion

will this play well with the public - Bush administration "gets away with another one" - as Rome burns?

[Terran]

69. Hang on a sec

If the two WH officials who cold-called Novak and the other journalists didn't know that Plame was some kind of operative, how is that they "outed" her as an operative, especially to Novak who wrote the very thing in his initial column on the matter? It couldn't merely be a mistake on their part, because if they hadn't known what Plame's true occupation was, then Novak couldn't have repeated the information. Right? Am I missing something here?

[WilliamPitt]

80. Good point

Good point good point good point. Hm.

[Terran]

85. In other words,

I think they did know, or had an idea. Still, that may not mean it was their intention to commit a felony, because what good does that, in particular, do them, aside from messing with Wilson indirectly? Quite a trade-off there, if they get caught. Maybe they just didn't know she was deep cover and had a network to protect. Were they suddenly that sloppy? That sorta doesn't sound like Rove to me.

Whole thing strikes me as odd for that reason, but then again, these people may think they can get away with anything at this point.

[Beetwasher]

84. They might have known she was an operative

but not one as crucial as she obviously was...Again, I think the mysoginy factor comes into play. It didn't occur to them that a chick could be a crucial operative involved in serious issues of national security...Though, if they DID know that, I don't know if it would have stopped them from outing her anyway...

[msmcghee]

82. Notice the wording . .

from Novak's article

Wilson never worked for the CIA, but his wife, Valerie Plame, is an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction. Two senior administration officials told me Wilson's wife suggested sending him to Niger to investigate the Italian report. The CIA says its counter-proliferation officials selected Wilson and asked his wife to contact him.

He didn't say the SAO's told him about Plame's job status. But now doesn't deny that.

I believe Rove, Bush and Cheney decided to do it - and then Novak conspired with Rove (who executed the plan) to say it this way because they both knew there was potantial criminal liability there.

[calimary]

83. I think this has merit, Will, especially considering the way these

people operate, and how they think. Of COURSE they're not going to look before they leap. They were more interested in planting the info and getting it out there PRIMARILY to take the wind out of Joseph Wilson's sails. Because he made them look bad via that op/ed piece in the New York Times this summer. (It opened everything up while bush and company were out of town - in Africa, watching elephants f-ing), made them look like liars, and set off the questioning of their WMD blather.

The reason they didn't look before they went for that leap is pure, simple, old-fashioned arrogance. They've gotten away with this stuff before. KKKarl himself got away with it, even though fired by the bush 1 campaign for planting a story (with NOVAK) dissing ghwb's good pal Robert Mosbacher. Yes, he was fired, but look how he failed UP since then. Firing didn't hurt him much.

Anyway, these arrogant schmucks are so spoiled, accustomed to getting away with it, accustomed to being able to do just about anything they want TO anyone they want without being called on it, punished for it, or even having it mentioned. They probably just assumed nothing would happen from this, and it could just remain under the radar - because - well, that's just how it works for them. Besides, they probably also assumed the media would continue as lapdogs and not make much of this anyway. It appears the CIA isn't playing by that playbook.

They're not used to this - having to face up to something they've done that's wrong, and maybe even also having to face consequences for it. They'll try to wriggle out of this, and they may even be partially successful, but I suspect we're going to be reaching critical mass on this stuff pretty shortly.

Because... the economy still sucks.

Because... more and more people are losing their jobs.

Because... Iraq is still a mess.

Because... Iraq is getting more expensive.

Because... more of our soldires keep dying every day over there.

And then, THIS on top of all that. It's not a happy recipe, because the ingredients are all pretty bad. After awhile, all you can bake after mixing these elements together is something VERY BAD and undesirable, and certainly unappetizing!

These folks slipped up. Their arrogance made them vulnerable. And sloppy. This will be awfully hard to get out of, and still smell good. That happens when you blithely go swimming in the city sewer because the surface of it looked so nice and smooth.

The poll numbers have already begun to slide. The slide is steady. This isn't gonna help. And when the bushies have had adverse news for long enough, it's going to start to stick in people's minds that they've hitched their wagon to a rock (Iraq?). It's a combined effect. MANY MANY hands had to push a snowball this big toward the edge of the hilltop, to the point where it starts to roll downwards...

[Donna Zen]

87. Was Wilson paid?

It seems I heard him say yesterday that he was not paid.

And I wish I could remember when/where I heard him say that. I watched cspan and CNN, but was wondering if anyone else remembers him saying that.

My two cents: WH (Rove) gives a general order..."get this guy." Whatever the troops did in carrying out the order, they did not initiate the process. This is a rove, not a rogue operation; however, without a high-pressure investigation the link will not be established. Also, they did not necessarily tell the boss what they decided to do. The cover was not their concern, nor were they concerned about the law. They know they can spin it and duck. If they were smart they moved this several levels away from the Oval Office.

Junior has admitted that he does not read the papers...he gives crack pot speeches and brings in the dough, c'est tout.

[msmcghee]

91. Yes, I remember . .

. . he said only his expenses were covered.

[KoKo]

89. Well, my view is DARK...I think it was "Blackmail" and Wilson got ONTO IT!

and that Wilson has enough connections that he heard from friends and his wife heard from CIA that the "FIX WAS IN" and when they started getting phone calls from their "friends" in Beltway Crowd about how their names were being "passed around" in the "reporting/Network/Cable" Circles they got nervous.....they had heard about "vague threats" and they had a "hubby/wife" POW WOW and they said.......LETS GET THIS OUT! TO PROTECT US AND OUR KIDS!

Look.....David Kelly ended up under a tree on a walk with his wrists slit! Be thankful that Wilson and Plame...are still here....but it DOESN'T mean they weren't COMPROMISED!

Peace!
koko

[Junkdrawer]

97. Yep. If Bush goes down (and there are miles to go before we sleep)...

Nigergate will be seen as the beginning of the end. And Wilson had a large hand in the Nigergate story...

[starscape]

93. Is this 'Tenent's Revenge?'

Methinks George Tenent has been positively fuming since the "falling on his sword" episode a few months ago. Something tells me this never would have been pushed to an investigation if this weren't a punitive measure in its own right.

What do y'all think? Is the CIA getting even with the administration? Even last week, Rice and Powell were defending the Iraq intel and saying, "take it up with the CIA." Tenent has be f***ing sick of getting that stuff passed on to him.