Some of the reasons I gave up on Christianity.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

(This is not a slight on any individual or particular group. Just personal experiences that led me to dislike a particular belief system).

I was raised a Presbyterian. Sunday school, catechism, the whole nine yards.

1. The "born again" thing. Seemed like a ridiculous thing to me from the get go. Add to that the concept that with planning you could do whatever heinous thing you wanted and it would be okay as long as you could get "sorry" before you die. Repentance. Great money generator there. I'll take the five Papal Bulls for $50, Alex.

2. The whoring on TV and radio. The Jims and Tammys. The most vocal and easily seen Christians in America seem to all be begging for money and drive better cars than I do.

3. The Pride. I always considered pride one of the "seven deadlies" and humility a virtue. So many of the vocal Christians hold up the idea of vanquishing a foe or simply put: winning as something next to sanctity. That Irks me to the nth degree.

4. Prayer in public places. Isn't there a scripture talking about this one? Here in the SE, it's getting more and more common.

5. The politicization of religion. Momma taught me religion was a private and precious thing. When people started wearing it as a badge of sorts in political debate, it cheapened it for me.

6. The arrogance. No explanation needed here I hope.

I'm sure there are tons of great Christians here. However, the religion seems to have been hijacked by the same greed and con game that first exhibited itself when Rome started collecting land and issuing bulls for forgiveness in lieu of monies considered.

Peace and good luck to the diminishing numbers of true ones out there.

[Fire Walk With Me]

1. Don't forget "original sin". You were born broken and we are your

only hope.

A loving God could "correct" such a flaw in His favored people. I certainly would.

Seems like more window-makers driving around town throwing rocks and leaving their business cards.

[buddysmellgood]

2. Don't forget acid reflux

[leftofthedial]

20. how can you forget acid reflux?

yuck.

[bliss_eternal]

3. #5.

I found it so interesting that only here in the US is religion used in politics.

While the 'US founding fathers' may have left their homeland for 'religious freedom', apparently these days one would be seen as completely 'off their nut' if they started spouting about 'God and religion' in the poltical context.

:crazy:

[DanCa]

41. Number five did it for me too. (see my post at the bottom)

I really dug religion more when it dealt with Comforting the sick, tending to the poor and worrying about the after life. All this meddling of science and politics is just disenheartening.

[bliss_eternal]

61. It is discouraging--but I like to believe that the people like us

are doing things as they should be done--

Looking to help those less fortunate, tending to the poor, comforting the sick, etc.

[Bellamia]

4. "Giving up".......

on traditional, fundamentalist Christianity, as I have too, I am happy to have found Christians in Exile, or Christianity for the New Milennium; directed by retired Episcopal Bishop, John Shelby Spong. If interested, Google him, he has a website but off the top of my head I can't give it to you. Sorry. And tons of books, like "Why Christianity Must Change or Die."

[quiet.american]

5. I understand where you're coming from, but....

Okay, if I hadn't had a few drinks, I normally wouldn't butt in here, but.....

What I mostly hear from people who have given up on religion as per se, is that they have given up on the interpretations of religion they've been subjected to from people who are not particularly spiritually evolved.

Now, it probably seems inappropriate that I'm butting in here after having a few drinks, but I happen to feel God doesn't hold that against me.

Jesus said, the kingdom of God is within you -- so why let anyone else dictate what that means to you.

Disillusionment with the status quo, with the misinterpretation of the scriptures, with perversion of the scriptures, etc. is actually usually the first step towards true spiritual understanding, if you don't just stop there.

If you do, no prob. I have nothing invested either way. Your relationship with your own divinity is your business. Just weighing in.

My belief is that which is greater than ourselves gives us free will to continue until we get the answers we seek, or not.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

8. Sounds like you're one of the good guys....

Whereas my disillusion with the religion of my parents took me to a different belief system, I believe that I cannot and should not slight another for theirs.

Grow strong and keep peace in your heart.

:toast:

[quiet.american]

15. Cheers, my friend. :)

:toast:

[tnlefty]

6. I can relate!!

I haven't totally given up yet, but I'm close.

I was raised in a Southern Baptist Church and when I reached the age of 17 I informed my parents that I was done. Of course they asked me why and I told them that I was sick of the fire and brimstone and of the total hypocrisy within the church.

I thought that I had found a home within the Episcopal Church until I realized that there were just as many rwing crazies there, too.

People just don't realize how indoctrinated EVERYTHING is in the south.

[ngGale]

46. I'm in the south too and grew up Baptist ...

left the church at 12, was baptized in a Christian church - at that time my family was hurt. Became disenchanted and didn't go to church for years - then converted to Catholicism, where upon my family completely disowned me. During all this time was married had three children and did send them to our family Baptist church with my mom.
I have three un baptized grown children who were all traumatized by the family church, none go to church. The reason they give, each said all they knew was they were going to hell so why go to church.
Also, why did I send them to a church that I wouldn't go to myself.
Duh, me - young mom just carrying on the family moral values.

It's very indoctrinated and ingrained into our lives in the south.
At this point, I'm caught between a rock and hard place since I backed Kerry in '04. The Beatitudes and Kerry, he would have made a great leader. My Parish became some Evangelical Catholic thing, but they seem to be waking up. Although they are very quiet about it.

I just follow my heart and try to keep my spiritually, I won't allow my faith to be used as a marketing campaign. It's personal and suppose to be.

Edit for typo.:blush:

[Wheezy]

7. Mr Joad,

Much of what you say resonates with me.
I don't usually mention that I'm a Christian on message boards. My husband is a pastor. And there are some true Christians out there, still.
I agree with much of what you say, and I am sad (but not surprised) that the Christian name has turned into something so wrong. I've watched it fall and burn.

There are true, good, peace-loving, closet-praying, humble Christians out there. But I find myself questioning my faith daily because of the points you raise.

Thanks for being honest. Nominated because I think this is an incredibly relevant topic right now.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

14. Thanks so much, Wheezy...

Maybe there's a question of "sects" that needs to be addressed in a discussion such as this.

St. Francis of Assisi is still a hero of sorts to me.

Peace.

[Wheezy]

18. Perhaps.

Honestly? I'll tell you this. I live in Mormon-land II, Mesa Arizona. And the second-favorite 'sect' here is hard right, fundamental, Dobson Christianity.

I'm so tired of being 'the sinner', you know? But one thing I do know is this: Christianity is about mirroring Jesus. And The Jesus? Ain't like most religious folks. It's the only thing I have to hold on to.

St. Francis of Assisi rocks. And so does Anne Lamott (she's just a little more current day :) )

I believe that we are all responsible for what we know, and how we seek the higher power. Questioning this horror of Christian-propaganda should be expected! In Isaiah, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we've turned everyone to his own ways, and the LORD will lay on him the iniquity of us all." I'm glad you didn't let this happen to you, like it's happened to the Christians who are loudest right now.

Whatever you choose for your spirituality, even if it's nothing at all, please know that you have the support of this Christian chick in AZ.

Don't stop searching until you are satisfied. I'll do the same.

[Geoff R. Casavant]

9. Please keep these verses in mind.

From the Book of 1 Kings, Chapter 19:

"The Lord said, 'Go out and stand on the mountain before the Lord. Look, the Lord is ready to pass by.'

"A very powerful wind went before the Lord, digging into the mountain and causing landslides, but the Lord was not in the wind. After the windstorm there was an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake. After the earthquake, there was a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire. After the fire, there was a soft whisper."

Don't mistake true Christianity for the religious overlay. I expect the very fact that you have these doubts indicates you are more of a Christian in spirit than you realize.

Good luck on your journey.

[RC]

10. I was raised Presbyterian in a belt buckle bible state.

I was 6 or 7 when I started to question. The answers I got for my questions didn't seem to fit. Didn't make sense. As I got older they made even less sense. How can the Christian god be a kind loving god if you have to know about him in the first place & believe in him before you can get into heaven.
All those people in Africa and China going to hell just because they had no way to know? What kind of kind loving god is that?

If I could figure that out at 6 or 7, why can't adults figure it out?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

12. Heh you think like me. Read my post on this thread.

[prole_for_peace]

28. exactly.

i read a column a long time ago that discussed the whole "saved" thing. the author mentioned that she didn't want to be part of any religion that said ghandi and george burns were going to hell because they weren't "born again". when i read that i thought "yeah". it is all so ridiculous.

now i just tell fundies that all the fun people will be in hell so why would i want to go anywhere else

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

11. When I was a kid I started going to church because I was afraid of dying,

and had some friends who were Christian. Went to Vacation Bible School etc. My parents are atheists so this had nothing to do with them.

When I was elementary school/junior high type age I gave up on the whole idea because of this:

It made no sense to me that someone should burn in hell forever.

It made no sense that someone who was fundamentally a very good person, like, say, my Dad, could live, on the balance, a very good life and do much more good than harm, but if he died, he would burn in hell forever because he didn't kiss the ring of some God.

And by the same token, someone could live the most depraved and terrible life possible, and have a "deathbed conversion" and eat bon bons at the arm of this same God forever. (Granted, living such a life they would probably be less likely to have a real conversion, but still...)

And even if someone were the worst sinner, had committed the most horrible crimes through there whole life like BTK or whoever, burning in hell forever seemed a disproportionate punishment. At some point, it's enough!

The whole thing just seemed like the kind of system shrubco would devise. Made no sense to me and I just kind of walked away from it.

[Just Me]

13. I figure I left the Christian domination 'cause I Love Jesus Christ.

I found the exploitation of Jesus, rather than the adoption of his vision, repugnant. Period.

[meow2u3]

16. Don't give up on Christ just because of the losers in power

These snakes are trying to provoke people to renounce God, or at least, religion. They come straight from Hell, and serve Satan, not God. So don't be tempted to turn your back on religion just because of the demonic forces that took over.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

19. I haven't given up on anything.... Maybe changes to the semantics

and an understanding different to the religion of my parents.

I wouldn't presume to say who those bastards you speak of are serving myself, but I believe we certainly share a low opinion of them.

[KittyWampus]

17. Well, Democracy In The US Has Been Hijaced Too, Should We Just Give Up

on it?

Or reclaim it?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

22. For me, Democracy is still worth fighting for.

As for my own spirituality?

It's mine. I'm happy and content with it.

I have no urge to "reclaim" a religion or to try and convince someone else that their belief system is wrong or deluded.

That's not my yob, man.

:toast:

[arewenotdemo]

21. not to mention freethinkers and pantheists are hot

[Deja Q]

23. Not pride. Hubris.

I am a Christian because I live by Christ's teachings.

Many are Christian but seem to not get very far beyond the final chapter of the Old Testament; and pretend the New one doesn't exist until the book of Revelations starts.

With me, it's the other way around. Christianity begins and ends with Jesus. Not the contradictary claptrap of the old testament... and Revelations still scares me to death.

[Warren DeMontague]

24. I got tired of waking up on people's couches and not knowing where I was

...oh, wait, that was booze.

[donco6]

27. Why I left Fundamentalism.

About 14 years ago, I left my church job in Lincoln, NE, moved to Denver and came out to myself. I had been involved in ever-more strict fundamentalism for the 15 years prior to that.

The reason I left started with a tiny little thought one day when I was riding a bus in Lincoln. The thought was this, "I don't *have* to do what they tell me to do." I had been thinking about the night of "cold-turkey" evangelism that I faced that evening, an event that always made me horrifically uncomfortable. But that thought came to mind, and I tossed it around just for one little second before tucking it away. I went to evangelize, of course, but still that thought was there.

Over the next FIVE years, I pulled that thought out and pondered on it. I began to see that my life was not being lived by myself, but by others through me. If they told me to do something, to think a certain way, to speak about this or that, I did it. But the little kernel idea just kept coming back and back.

Finally, just as I was about to be promoted to the head of the radio ministry, I embraced my own will for the first time in 15 years. I quit my job, bought a small business in Denver, packed up my stuff, moved away and never looked back.

I left fundamentalist Christianity because it does not, and never can, allow you to think for yourself. But it can be overcome. I'm living proof that even the whackiest RWer can hear what you're saying. Please keep it up.

[Warren DeMontague]

45. Thanks for that story.

:thumbsup:

I will try to remember it, when I'm in danger of buying too much into my own BS*

*-Belief System

[Arugula Latte]

25. Plus, the Earth is billions of years old. Christ was here 2,000 years ago.

Yeaaaaah, he's the savior. Um, hooo-kay.

[JanusAscending]

26. Hello Tom!

OK. I'm not going to preach. I only want to encourage you to PLEASE DON'T JUDGE THE "MASTER" by his servants! That's where "organized religion gets into trouble" I'm in the same boat as you (almost) I was totally turned off by the hypocritical "christian" leaders who put themselves on the same level as God, and then turned out to be fallible, human beings with "clay feet" I too turned away from my church, but never from my Lord. He is my personal strength, and the reason why I follow the golden rule. I'm sure you know whereof I speak. I am a devout Christian who looks up to no man, but my Savior. Call Him whatever name you wish, it doesn't matter to me. Whether it be Allah, Jehovah ,Karma, whatever. We have to believe in a power bigger than ourselves, because I believe "no man is an island. We all need something to believe in. I continue to believe because He has "proven Himself" to me, and has answered many, many prayers. He comforts me now that I am alone, and gives me strength to go on. On the lighter side; at this stage of the "game" that Dubya's playing with America, we are all going to need some answered prayers!! Jesus is not a Republican. Many evil things have been done in His name, but He says,"by your fruits I have known you"!!!! PEACE BROTHER:hug:

[OctOct1]

29. Always remember... the 1st thing God said

Don't eat from the tree of knowlegde.

It was all over when they did

[Secular Agent Man]

30. Glad to see you off the kool-aid TYJ

I was fortunate enough never to have it pushed on me as a kid, but was probably something a borderline Christian. My wife and I gave it up about 20 years ago. I've also spent the past 20 years researching the origins of world religions, history and mythology. I could tell you things about Christianity that would make your head swim. Believe me, you're doing the right thing. Good luck with it.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

47. I've been "off the kool aid" for quite some time.

I guess that the aggressive stance of many of the more vocal "dominations" is what made me reconsider some of the things that sent me looking for other answers so many years ago.

[DeepModem Mom]

31. self-delete

[Bluerthanblue]

32. Wow, lots of good responses here, touching

on so many things i can really understand, and sympathize with.

Just a few... thoughts... comments-

"People"- use alot of different 'things' to excuse their behaviours, addictions and shortcomings. They also use 'things' to explain, or fill in the blanks that life comes with. And leaves us with. Sadly, i believe 'religion' is often one of those.

BUT- that being said... i DO believe in God- in a benevolent, loving, and GOOD force, that exists and has existed for longer than i can concieve of. And i believe Jesus' message as twisted and mis-used as it often is, (especially these days) is a GOOD message- one that people found very 'uncomfortable' when He walked the earth, and one that people still cannot grab hold of very easily. Largely, because of our 'egos' because the notion of 'good' people suffering, and 'bad' people not being punished seems so incredibly ...... unfair... when we look at life from a perspective of 'self' and not of our interconnectedness.

JFK's speeches contain an incredible amount of refrences to God- so do Abraham Lincoln's- neither of them cause the .... visceral revulsion in me that bush's do. Could it be that somehow deep down when we are being 'played' the HUGE difference between a persons 'faith' and using buzz words to woo folks rings false in so many peoples ears?

If believing in Christ, means that 'my life' is going to be improved, or that i am 'better' than others, as some folks claim then i reject that. Because that 'Christ' is only a 'tool' to benefit ME- and i become 'God'. If listening and studing what Christ encouraged and trying to put that to use, NOT because it will 'gain me points'- because each one of us allready HAVE the points we need, but because when i respond to something 'bad' with 'good' there is a little less 'bad' in the world, then we all benefit right now. When folks are kind to me, even when don't deserve it- ESPECIALLY when i don't deserve it, i don't feel like giving back mean-ness. Like that bad mood that spreads, from work to home, to the kids, to the dog, to the cat...

i think it's time we put the CHRIST back in Christianity- or maybe put him in for the first time.

i understand how many folks who have been hurt, disilliusioned, and deluged with prostelitizing religous people feel, and i regret that. Forcing 'faith' on anyone, is an oxymoronic idea- like 'bringing freedom to the world- through war....'

i wish people would not use god to hurt each other-
no one is being 'fooled'- and everyone is getting hurt.
How incredibly sad, that some of the most pure and beautiful 'things' are 'used' and 'abused' for the temporary satisfaction of us humans-
Like the sexual abuse of a child, or the mindless destruction of nature, NOT because we 'need' to, but because we 'can'.

Seeing isn't always necessiary for believeing- i have faith, that some day we will all see.

"In April, we cannot see sunflowers in France, so we might say the sunflowers do not exist. But the local farmers have already planted thousands of seeds, and when they look at the bare hills, they may be able to see the sunflowers already. The sunflowers are there. They lack only the conditions of sun, heat, rain and July. Just because we cannot see them does not mean that they do not exist."
Thich Nhat Hanh

peace, and thanks for sharing your experiences Tom, (and everyone else)- we all have so much to offer each other.

[applegrove]

33. You don't have to change anything about yourself because of them.

Find the right pastor (online) and keep up with what works for you. Seriously..there are great pastors online (England) and people are downloading their sermons all the time.

Fight for what is yours. What they want is to diminish how you & your family practice your faith..because they cannot use that. So ignore them. And find what feels true for you in new and interesting ways.

[DanCa]

34. They can have the buildings they can't have my faith

Let me do a rewind for a bit. I was born and raised catholic. I have the ruler marks on my knuckles to prove it. Somehow I never got confirmed though. Fast forward to the year 2000. I really wanted to become a Deacon for the church however the Rite of Christian Initian for Adults blocked my studies and wanted me to go thru some sort of litmus test by taking pictures of woman entering abortion clinics. I guess they wanted to scarlet letter them by putting them on those anti cam websites along with the providers information etc.
When I said no they kicked me out. I was so upset I had a stroke and lost my voice for three days.

Cut too may of 2004 I was diagnosed with young onset parkinson's disease. I can no long attend my familys church because I am pro stem cell, pro reproductive freedom and pro gay rights. I have finally realized that it isn't about me. It's about them. They call shots unfortunately and sure it sucks but I dont have the power or dellusions to change things.

AM I angry that I am discriminated against, you bet. But what can I do about it? Let it eat me up 24 7 or try and move on? So I bear no ill will toward the christian on this page for what happened they didn't do nothing. And All I can do is vote against the anti choice crowd because there apart of the same click that ostrachized me. But other than that am trying not to be a martryr.

So inconclusion I'll let them have the sky, I will tend the earth. And than I'll let them have the buildings but they can never have my faith. Have a good one every one. I am sorry for the preachin' everyone I am on a lot of medication.

[bliss_eternal]

60. Danca--I'm very sorry

to hear of your Parkinson's and the estrangement from your family. I hope that you have others in your life that support you and all the positive things that you believe in.

You're a good guy! You don't deserve any sort of ostracism. Know that you have a family here on DU that supports you and believes in what you do!

Again, I am sorry--:hug:

[Swamp Rat]

35. When I was a child, I read H.P. Lovecraft's "At the Mountains of Madness."

That changed everything. :)

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

48. For me, it was Mark Twain's "Letters From the Earth."

Planted a coconut of doubt that grew into a tree in the light of logic.

(Love the new graphic!)

[Swamp Rat]

49. Thanks. I love Twain too, but when I was a kid, I was more into Poe.

I finished this an hour ago, after I saw a pro-Bushler banner at Camp Casey. This is how I see that banner:

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

51. I had read all of Poe by age 12. Loved it back then.

My only Swamp Rat homage:

[Swamp Rat]

52. WOW!!!

EXCELLENT!!! :D What an honor!!! Thank you! :applause: :woohoo:

edit: My favorite is the "The Unparalleled Adventures of Hans Pfaall." :)

[FreedomAngel82]

36. It seems to me

that some people have lost their way in what they do (see Falwell and Dobson). They make it more about politics and controlling lives instead of what Christ was really about.

[DanCa]

37. I think you just nailled it.

Can I quote you on that some time. John Kerry said it best. You can't legislate articles of faith.

[evilqueen]

38. I think what turns me off about almost all religions today

...is that I see them as mechanisms of control over people by people, and for the most part, these religions put women (half the population) in a place very low on the totem pole based simply on which plumbing they happened to have been born with, as if that affects their ability to reason or to love or to serve That Which is Bigger Than Us All. The major religions of the world really have very little to do with genuine spirituality, it's all about a hierarchy of power and how the ones at the top can profit from it.

[JDPriestly]

39. I like Jesus' teaching and example.

But, I have devised my own ideas about God because the traits the Christians lump under the word "God" don't fit. For example, Christians acknowledge that humans are prone to sin, conduct that breaks God's rules in that it is antisocial and harms other humans. They blame this sin on human weakness and failure to follow God's will. They teach that God punishes us for such sins. At the same time, they say that God purposely created man with a will and that God loves and cares for us and is our "father."

So what kind of father/creator would design or father us, his children so that we are prone to sin, to behavior that would break his own rules and hurt others of his children? My father was not like that. I did not feel that way toward my children. If I had the omnipotent ability to create my children to follow my rules perfectly so that they and those around them would have beautiful lives, I would have done so. If God is omnipotent and our father, why would he not have created us to be perfect? Did he make a mistake? Then he is not omnipotent and perfect. Was he playing a sadistic joke on us, his children? Then he is not loving. Was he testing us? For what purpose? I would not do that to someone I loved.

Now some Christians explain this by saying well Satan or the devil caused this. But, if God is Omnipotent and loving, why did he create a being that could become a devil? And if God did not create the devil, where did that devil come from? Did God really create some angel that did not behave? Follow this reasoning and you end up in a logical quagmire. Why, if God is so loving but also so demanding of perfection, would God create man to have a will? Why would God test man? Is God just some practical joker? This just makes no sense to me, and I realized this at a fairly early age. I still believe in God, but not in all that nonsense about sin, etc. If someone can explain these contradictions to me, I would appreciate it. Also, why would God create beings from flowers and plants to human beings to ultimately die, each and every one of them? That also makes no sense to me. I can understand that souls could live forever in different forms, but does each blade of grass have a separate soul? This also makes no sense to me.

I can also accept that all of this is beyond my ability to know and that is why I cannot understand with my mind, but if that is so, and it seems to me to be the best explanation for it all, then why bother with theology at all. It is the unknowable, so we just have to accept that fact, I believe. And churches and religions and theology should be abolished, and morality should be a matter of reason and human responsibility to other humans and the world.

[MikeH]

40. Some Things For Me

I went to church and Sunday school when I was growing up as being among the things I was supposed to do, but started taking the idea of God seriously in my early 20's. The idea of God seemed to make sense.

I find that on the one hand, I have trouble accepting that our reason, our sense of justice and right and wrong, and our sense of beauty, truth, and goodness do not come from something or someone higher than ourselves or the natural universe. I like some of the arguments of C. S. Lewis along these lines, particularly in his book about Miracles.

However, after taking Christianity and Jesus Christ seriously as a young man in my 20's and early 30's, I found that I did not receive any help from my faith or from God or Jesus which enabled me to better deal with any real world issues in my life, or any sources of pain and frustration.

And nothing that I have experienced in my almost 55 years has served to confirm for me the reality of anything that could be considered supernatural.

So I am now left just on the believing side of agnostic. I understand and sympathize with somebody else being an atheist, but I cannot be one myself. I stopped going to Church more than 15 years ago, and do not regret having done so.

During the time I was serious about Christianity I had been in groups with some people who were fundamentalist in their beliefs. I think it was a good experience for me to be exposed to such people. Now I realize I could not stand any serious fellowship with such people.

I particularly reject the Hitler-like God who is going to condemn people to hell for all eternity if they are unfortunate enough to miss out on accepting Jesus in this lifetime. At one time I was worried that something like that might be true, but I can now confidently chuck such a belief.

And I find it is pretty evident now that the Bible is fallible just like anything else that fallible humans have ever had any part in writing (whatever may be true of God's involvement in the writing of the Bible).

One open question for me is about life after death. I don't want to accept or believe that there is nothing after death, but at the present time I have to say I don't know. I think I can take comfort in accepting that whatever is true, is true, and is not affected by what I, or anybody else, may think or feel.

I have read about near death experiences, and find it very interesting that they might *possibly* indicate something after this life. However I have not myself had any such experience (and actually don't think it wise to wish for such an experience!), and I do not know of anybody that I know having had such an experience.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

44. Jesus didn't have a Church to preach in

My advise is to find a group of people that share your personal beliefs. Yes, there is comfort in numbers, even if you don't agree 100%, find anyone, you can agree a 100% with on any or all issues.

I have said many times, I know more agnostics, atheists, etc, that are more Christ-like, then the fake Christians we have in this country. I am a Christian, I follow my heart (where HE actually lives), not some Church leader who professes to know HIM more than any of us do. I do belong to a mainstream Church that is Christ-like, but not to a Church leader.

If you seek, you shall find, a place to worship that is in agreement with your views. My Church has a policy, we agree, to disagree.

[immoderate]

58. Seems quite simple to me.

If people are good, everyone benefits.
If people are bad, everyone suffers.

This simple truth requires absolutely no faith in anything beyond what we can experience. It is, as the founders would say, self evident. The churches can give you nothing except what they deliver here on earth. Hopefully, it's a good pot luck dinner, and some comfort when you are sick.

As for what happens after, no one knows. Those near death experiences have been replicated in the laboratory and seem to have something to do with oxygen deprivation to the brain. But people will believe whatever comforts them.

Congratulations for your self determination.

--IMM

[NNadir]

42. I gave up on Christianity because it is absurd.

I just couldn't make myself believe that the creator of the universe became incarnate in his son, got himself crucified, and then came back from the dead.

Why the fuck would the creator of the universe engage in such an elaborate ruse?

It made no sense when I was a kid and rejected my parents (devout) religion, and it makes no sense some 35 years later.

I like certain Christian values, turn the other cheek, work for peace and all that stuff that is routinely ignored by practioners, but the rest of it sounds rather silly.

[smurfygirl]

43. I also gave up...in fact I announced to my mother tonight

after our weekly family meal....was a real argument
I don't know if she can accept it so far.


edited for another thought...

If the ten commandments state that Thou shall have no other God before me and all these people see Jesus as God and pray to him and there is no real difference then isn't that disobeying the commandment? That's the stupidity I see in religion (christianity), the fact that god and Jesus are the same to me seems well sac religious

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

53. My mother now gives me the "shut up look from hell" whenever

talk strays to religion.

We still love each other dearly but know this is something we don't discuss.

[jonnyblitz]

50. giving it up because it isn't true is probably the best reason

free your mind from superstition.

[teknomanzer]

54. sharing another religious journey...

I was baptized as a Catholic though never confirmed (ie no holy communion) and my mother and step father were only "Holiday" Catholics. They only went to Church on Easter and Christmas, midnight mass and such.

I remember as a child I was fascinated by the horrific images portrayed in Revelations, and at that time there was a rise in Fundamentalist Evangelical Christianity and Hal Lindsey's book had been out for a while, and every now and then I would come across some Chick publication. The brand of Christianity I was exposed to was entirely fear based, Satan, Hell, Fire and Brimstone, The Four Horseman of the Apocalypse... Some of the best horror writers must lament that they couldn't come up with stuff this good!

But what really turned me off was the hypocrisy of evangelical leaders and a near blind opposition to science. My bullshit meter was always in the red zone whenever I would see those t.v. preachers slapping the bible condemning people to hell fire, then asking for money or pitching the latest 'end of the world' video or book for $29.95, Months later my suspicions were confirmed when I would find out they were drugged up prostitute patrons who thought an air conditioner for the dog house was a good idea. "Please forgive me," I saw them cry on national television. "Nothing to forgive," I thought to myself, "I knew you were full of it from the start."

For some reason that I can't quite explain I felt that science always trumped religion. I remember at age sixteen attending a church that my step sister was a member of, and being extremely perturbed by the fact that the preacher was bashing evolution. To me it was like claiming the earth was flat. In my view of history these types were obstacles to progress. I still feel that way about many religious leaders.

But science didn't answer all the questions and it certainly didn't solve the central human problem. Why are we such assholes to one another and why can't we stop? In fact science enabled us to do even more horrific things to one another. So science was no saviour.

I started on a philosophical and religious journey... a search for truth if you will. I started by looking for the historical Jesus. And discovered that there was no independent source in support of such a persons existence, and along the way I discovered that the Gospels were not eye witness accounts, biblical books had many authors over long periods of time and were contradictory, early Christianity was even more diverse than today, christianity was an amalgam of Levantine and Mediterranean religious traditions, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Mithra-ism, and Greco-Roman mystery cults. It was all very fascinating!

I began to examine other religions, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and mythology in general which led me to such names as Houston Smith, Joseph Campbell, and Carl G. Jung and others. Then I took a dive into Philosophy especially metaphysics and ethics. All the while there seemed to be a central theme that is a little difficult to put into summation. But it seemed to me that everyone had an idea about the same thing but due to limitations of language, time, culture, or personal bias they always fell short with the description.

During this journey I went through many different phases. I started out as a christian oriented person seeking verification for his assumed belief, became a confused and frustrated agnostic, onto an uneasy atheist, back to an less confused agnostic, and lately assuming a position somewhere between Buddhism and Taoism. My view may change in the future who knows - I'm still on that journey and it won't end until my last day in this form.

I see each religion as a but path to truth. A particular religion is not the truth itself as ultimate truth is beyond words. Most religions start off with a divine revelation like Judeo-Christian traditions. And such religions speak of the ultimate being by means of metaphor which are unfortunately foolishly interpreted in a literal sense by some. I chose a path without a divine revelation as a starting point, not because I doubt divine revelation can happen, but simply because divine revelation is not a part of my current experience. Divine revelation is a subjective experience and I decided on a more objective starting point, which brought me to Buddhism.

The objective experience I refer to is that of impermanence. Even you can look around and realize that everything you can detect with your senses is changing or will change form. Forms break down and recombine all the time. It is self evident. Its the truth of reality. The fact is generally speaking that we do not accept this condition and it is our rejection of reality that causes us suffering.
In other words our attachment to impermanent forms causes mental anguish. Pain itself does not cause suffering, it is our attachment to being comfortable that causes suffering. From just this starting point I have begun some self examination and have realized that what I call my "self" or personality is really nothing more than a collection of likes and dislikes. For example I know that I am the person who likes broccoli, dislikes country music, likes to go to the beach, dislikes going to work and so on. If you think about it this is the way we describe ourselves (apart from our physical appearance) to others. But all of these things are biased decisions I've made based on my limited single perspective experience. If I change my mind and decide I really love my job and county music then this "self" has changed and yet I am still me. But what is me? My body? This body has changed so much over the last 34 years to the point that any matter I started with back then is most assuredly someplace else...

Now I'm not trying to convert anyone here... but simply illustrating this path - this line of contemplation - should lead me to a point of realization about the ultimate source being that some would call God. Some others will realize God/ultimate being through contemplation of their own religious path. In that sense, to me Christianity is still a valid and powerful religion. Jesus IS the way, the truth, and the light, but you can't get there by dunking your head in water, slapping bibles, condemning others and having a holier than thou attitude. Before you can take the speck from your brother's eye you must first remove the plank from you own eye. When you remove the plank from your own eye you will know how best to remove the speck from your brother's eye. In other words you can't "save" other people until you have worked on yourself and you won't even have a clue about saving anyone until you have opened your eyes to reality. That is the problem with most people think they've got religion. Its really just the blind leading the blind.

The truly religious aren't just blind sheep following some idiot shepherd. They are people who have struggled on a journey of self discovery and ultimately found themselves in others...

I personally have learned quite a bit in my quest for truth in religion and philosophy much more than I could possibly write down in a single post, but the single most important thing I've learned is that religion is not the cause of the human problem like anything else in this world it can be abused. Ignorance and misunderstanding are the cause of human woes.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

55. Nicely written and stated.

I agree and disagree with many of your observations, but I wanted to kick this as your post certainly deserves to be read by more than me.

Peace.

[Modem Butterfly]

56. My father Christmas passed away

My father Christmas passed away when I was barely seven
At twenty-one, alack a-day, I lost my faith in heaven
Yet not in either lies the curse: the hell of it's because
I don't know which loss hurt the worse, my god or Santa Claus

- Robert W. Service

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

57. Thanks! I love Service and don't recall ever reading that one.

But it's Service at the top of his game.

[Modem Butterfly]

59. Service wrote a number of short, pithy poems

Of course, he's known for his epics, like "The Cremation of Sam McGee" and "The Shooting of Dan McGrew", but his shorter poems are wonderfully pointed.

Here's a webpage with a bunch of his poetry:

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Bluffs/8336/robert_service.html

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

62. When I was in the rare book business, I sought out and found many

First Edition, Service books...

I always took them home and read them before selling them to their intended new owner.