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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 04:13 PM
Original message
HELP......
I was reading our daily rag here in Taft country (nw OHIO) and came upon this LTTE. Maybe some knowledgeable DUers can help me with the research to debunk it. In a nut shell he says:

Clinton said SS was in trouble and fixed it by imposing heavy taxes, we now pay taxes on 85%of this money.

The truth is there is no SS fund.LBJ abolished it transferring all money to the general fund.

Carter gave SS to immigrants even when though they never paid.

Dem's falsely claim repugs want to take away SS.

Liberals wouldn't survive if the SS trust fund was reinstated.

SS money helps support AARP, ACLU,abortions,TV terrorists,foreign governments,bigger government,outrageous government medical and retirement benefits,pornography,anti-christian activities, farm subsidies, and more.

SS contributions are paying for the liberal destruction of America.

I am researching the history of SS but any help will be greatly appreciated. I will post my rebuttal when it's finished. Thanks to all that help!
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. Gee. Which RW nut journal or website did they get these points from?
Edited on Sun Aug-21-05 04:18 PM by Cleita
Rush? Ann? Sean? Bill? Of course it appears they have no sources to base their accusations on as usual.

On edit. The best information about the SS program is on the SS official website.
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. is there a link to the LTTE?
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kliljedahl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. Do they give any facts to support their assertions?
I didn't think so.

Link to the LTTE?
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Burried News Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
4. One of the biggest hits to SS was by Nelson Rockefeller
Edited on Sun Aug-21-05 04:36 PM by Burried News
In the mid 70's Chase was in big trouble because NYC was about to declare bankruptcy. Nelson was governor. He accepted the VP slot under Ford. Remember Nixon and Agnew were both gone. He accepted the post to be able to maneuver the feds.

The bailout was accompished by moving children on Welfare to Social Security. Remember Welfare is city and state funded and 1/7th of New Yorkers were on welfare - over a million people. This is how, what is now called Social Security Aide for Dependent Children, got initiated.

Social Security supports a large number of children who have never worked and it was done to protect Chase Manhattan Bank.
This is further evidence that current proposals are meant to shore up
Wall Street and the dollar.

I am sure there are better links:
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:j6hURQ17ulgJ:www.davidgergen.com/resources/NYT.doc+Nelson+Rockefeller+NYC+bailout&hl=en&lr=lang_en&client=firefox-a%20target=nw

This article is very good but the opposition won't like or probably accept the source. The article is accurate. I lived there and worked for the city at the time. 14000 out of 70000 teachers were laid off - most never returned. The schools took 20+ years to recover.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/jan2001/obit-j06.shtml
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. go to www.snope.com
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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
6. Link to LTTE
www.crescent-news.com
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
7. Direct from the source...
...Social Security.

Myths debunked about Social Security: http://www.ssa.gov/history/InternetMyths.html
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
8. I don't see much point disagreeing with someone who thinks that..
QUOTE:
"Liberals couldn’t survive if we reinstated the SS trust fund.
Look at some of what our money supports in the general fund:
Ultra liberal AARP and ACLU,
abortions,
TV,
terrorists,
foreign governments,
bigger government,
outrageous government medical and retirement benefits,
pornography,
anti-Christian activities,
farm subsidies
and umpteen other things."



That list right there is a big pile of CRAZY!
All the facts in the world ain't gonna reach this guy.
He's GONE...and he isn't coming back.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
9. Try doing searches at
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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Thanks all.. this info was great really helpful...
Edited on Sun Aug-21-05 08:07 PM by madmom
now to write my rebuttal.

edited to say: this guy is a frequent LTTE writer always down on liberals and dems, so anybody wanting to write a rebuttal, I say the more the merrier.
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Whoa_Nelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
10. Refuted ALL: From the Social Security site
http://www.ssa.gov/history/InternetMyths2.html

Myths and misstatements of fact frequently circulate on the Internet, in email and on websites, and are repeated in endless loops of misinformation. One common set of such misinformation involves a series of questions about the history of the Social Security system.


One Common Form of the Questions:

Q1: Which political party took Social Security from the independent trust fund and put it into the general fund so that Congress could spend it?

Q2: Which political party eliminated the income tax deduction for Social Security (FICA) withholding?

Q3: Which political party started taxing Social Security annuities?

Q4: Which political party increased the taxes on Social Security annuities?

Q5: Which political party decided to start giving annuity payments to immigrants?




THE CORRECT ANSWERS TO THE FIVE QUESTIONS

Q1. Which political party took Social Security from the independent trust fund and put it into the general fund so that Congress could spend it?

A1: There has never been any change in the way the Social Security program is financed or the way that Social Security payroll taxes are used by the federal government. The Social Security Trust Fund was created in 1939 as part of the Amendments enacted in that year. From its inception, the Trust Fund has always worked the same way. The Social Security Trust Fund has never been "put into the general fund of the government."

(For a detailed explanation of how the Trust Fund works, provided by the Social Security Administration's actuaries, see the material available elsewhere on our website.)

Most likely this question comes from a confusion between the financing of the Social Security program and the way the Social Security Trust Fund is treated in federal budget accounting. Starting in 1969 (due to action by the Johnson Administration in 1968) the transactions to the Trust Fund were included in what is known as the "unified budget." This means that every function of the federal government is included in a single budget. This is sometimes described by saying that the Social Security Trust Funds are "on-budget." This budget treatment of the Social Security Trust Fund continued until 1990 when the Trust Funds were again taken "off-budget." This means only that they are shown as a separate account in the federal budget. But whether the Trust Funds are "on-budget" or "off-budget" is primarily a question of accounting practices--it has no affect on the actual operations of the Trust Fund itself. (The budget treatment of the Trust Funds is explained in more detail elsewhere on our website.)



Q2: Which political party eliminated the income tax deduction for Social Security (FICA) withholding?

A2: There was never any provision of law making the Social Security taxes paid by employees deductible for income tax purposes. In fact, the 1935 law expressly forbid this idea, in Section 803 of Title VIII.

(The text of Title VIII. can be found elsewhere on our website.)



Q3. Which political party started taxing Social Security annuities?

A3. The taxation of Social Security began in 1984 following passage of a set of Amendments in 1983, which were signed into law by President Reagan in April 1983. These amendments passed the Congress in 1983 on an overwhelmingly bi-partisan vote.

The basic rule put in place was that up to 50% of Social Security benefits could be added to taxable income, if the taxpayer's total income exceeded certain thresholds.

The taxation of benefits was a proposal which came from the Greenspan Commission appointed by President Reagan and chaired by Alan Greenspan, who is presently serving as Chairman of the Federal Reserve.

The full text of the Greenspan Commission report is available on our website.

President's Reagan's signing statement for the 1983 Amendments can also be found on our website.

A detailed explanation of the provisions of the 1983 law is also available on the website.



Q4. Which political party increased the taxes on Social Security annuities?

A4. In 1993, legislation was enacted which had the effect of increasing the tax put in place under the 1983 law. It raised from 50% to 85% the portion of Social Security benefits subject to taxation; but the increased percentage only applied to "higher income" beneficiaries. Beneficiaries of modest incomes might still be subject to the 50% rate, or to no taxation at all, depending on their overall taxable income.

The details of these provisions can be found on our website.

This change in the tax rate was one provision in a massive Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act (OBRA) passed that year. The OBRA 1993 legislation was deadlocked in the Senate on a tie vote of 50-50 and Vice President Al Gore cast the deciding vote in favor of passage.

(You can find a brief historical summary of the development of taxation of Social Security benefits on the Social Security website.)



Q5. Which political party decided to start giving annuity payments to immigrants?

A5. Neither immigrants nor anyone else is able to collect Social Security benefits without someone paying Social Security payroll taxes into the system. The conditions under which Social Security benefits are payable, and to whom, can be found in the pamphlets available on our website.

The question confuses the Supplemental Security Income (SSI) program with Social Security. SSI is a federal welfare program and no contributions, from immigrants or citizens or anyone else, is required for eligibility. Under certain conditions, immigrants can qualify for SSI benefits. The SSI program was an initiative of the Nixon Administration and was signed into law by President Nixon on October 30, 1972.

An explanation of the basics of Social Security, and the distinction between Social Security and SSI, can be found on the Social Security website.

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wakemeupwhenitsover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Whoa_Nelly! Great job! n/t
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