The Death Throes of Religion.

[Solomon]

It finally occurred to me that the ferocity of religion is a sign that mankind is finally about to rid itself of this deadly form of terrorism.

Doesn't matter whether it's Islam or Christianity, we are witnessing an uprising of extreme idiots who are showing the world just how demented people become when they are sucked into religion. The more it begins to lose it's grip, the more ferocious it's proponents become.

While it may seem that religion is enjoying a resurgence, I think it's finally beginning to die.

It's truly astonishing that grown adults can get so wrapped up into fairy tales.

There comes a time in life when you have to grow up and acknowledge that Santa Claus really does not exist. It amazes me that children learn to get over this hurdle, as painful as it is, but adults, cling ever more tenaciously to an even more absurd tale.

Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason" should be required reading for every american. I've yet to see anything that proves him wrong.
Every christian should do himself a favor and rush out immediately and get this book. Read it. It's medicine.

I'm not an atheist. I guess, like Paine and Thomas Jefferson I would call myself a deist.

I believe in the noble principles and sentiments of religion. The substance of it. But I refuse to elevate form over substance.

If that makes me a "secular humanist" (another label designed to short-circuit the thinking process) then so be it.

We have to learn as adults that belief should be based upon reason and logic. The superstitions and fantasies of children are nothing. But the superstitions and fantasies of adults are murderous and appocalyptic.

[mopaul]

1. amen, and amen

[H2O Man]

2. The rising tensions

feed the religious extremists. It's always been that way. It always will be that way. Only peace and rational thought can starve their agenda of the fuel it requires.

[mattclearing]

3. The overly-religious have been ruining the world for the sane for too long

And I see no reason to believe they are going to stop anytime soon.

[bryant69]

4. Fairytales?

Not sure I know what you are talking about here - unless you are saying a belief in God is a belief in a fairy tale.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Solomon]

6. Bryant69. Go out right now and get "Age of Reason". Read it.

I didn't say belief in God is a belief in a fairy tale. Belief in the Bible is most definitely akin to belief in fairy tales.

Actually, if you Google Thomas Paine, you can read the book free right over the internet.

[bryant69]

9. I've read it actually

Though it's been a fwe years.

Still believe in the Bible though.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[H2O Man]

12. "fairy tales"

The choice of "fairy tales" as a description is a sure way to appeal to a certain audience, and insult another audience.

It might be a little less of an emotionally loaded description to note the bible contains a significant amount of mythology, which is a good thing. More, Jesus used parables as a means of teaching truths. To note that the bible contains mythology and parables for teaching devices is not likely to cause hard feelings on DU.

[Solomon]

19. You are right, H20 Man. I stand corrected. But I'm getting a little

tired of mincing words. How much you want to bet that saying bible stories are based on mythology is just as insulting to religious nuts as calling them fairy tales?

At any rate. I do appologize for the inartful use of language. And yes, fairy tales do a good job of illustrating truth as well.

[H2O Man]

32. Some certainly do.

We think of Aesop's fables as being directed towards children. In fact, they are remarkable teachings of a 6th century BC slave who had to speak in a coded manner. Malcolm X studied Aesop, and of course taught some of his harsher lessons in stories about animals. (!) A member of a tribal minority, living in the bowels of an empire, has to teach in parables or fables, or else they'll be killed. And that's just as true today as it was in Jesus' day, or in Aesop. (The name Aesop merely indicates that he came from Egypt.)

[jonnyblitz]

8. you think those stories are true? i don't know about you

but I don't know too many virgins who have given birth. :eyes:

[bryant69]

10. There's only one, isn't there?

Isn't that the whole point to that?

[Orrex]

13. There are many

Primitive mythology is replete with virgin births and parthenogenesis.

[bryant69]

15. Ah

I thought we were talking about the Bible. Are we talking about mythology now?

[mopaul]

18. oh no, can't call the bible mythology, that's flamebait

[bryant69]

20. Well it's change of reference

you could talk about the bible as mythology, but it's more clear if you set that up at the beginning.

At any rate, MoPaul, while you are regularly funny and occasionally insightful, you are pretty into flamebait aren't you? Don't you enjoy it when you write a post you know is going to piss people off?

[Orrex]

25. bryant69, yours is a legitimate objection

I shifted the focus of the discussion without giving appropriate indication. My subsequent post, I hope, clarifies my position, but it was sloppy of me to change lanes without signaling.

[mopaul]

28. you seem to be the only one i've pissed off, and i apologize to you

[bryant69]

30. Gosh darn.

I guess I'll have to take your words at face value.

[H2O Man]

26. It's actually true

in history other than mythology. For example, the historic figure known as the PeaceMaker, who founded the Iroquois Confederacy, is recorded to have come from a "virgin birth." The meaning, like that of story of Jesus, was symbolic.

There are numerous other examples of biographies of historical figures told in similar manners.

And of course the bible contains a great deal of mythology. As I'm sure you know, much of it was borrowed from other, older cultures' mythology. And I agree that it is a problem when people take those parts as being a literal description of events. That is like thinking Jesus's parables were intended literally as "facts" rather than as "truths."

[Orrex]

22. Well, yes.

When we're talking about the fantastical elements of the bible, we are talking about mythology.

The miraculous events of the bible have much more in common with myths of that time than with the understanding of reality that we've gleaned over the intervening millennia.

The historians whose word we're asked to accept would have seen a simple card trick has high sorcery; it's not reasonable to accept their testimony regarding allegedly miraculous events for which we have no other evidence.

That's true whether we're talking about Ovid or Luke.

[bryant69]

24. I suppose it depends on whether you believe the Bible

because of the miracles or not.

[Orrex]

Exactly--that's the crux (no pun intended)

My question has always been "On what basis does one believe the Bible?"

If someone I know personally trust claims that he was abducted by aliens last night, I am unable to believe him because his claims are in conflict with all other evidence I have regarding reality. It's much more likely that he's joking or deluded or even willfully deceiving me than that he had truly had an incredible and other-worldly experience.

And that's someone I know and trust. I have no reason to trust Luke, and I certainly don't know him (and neither do you or anyone else)--so I have no basis for believing his testimony regarding miraculous events.

[H2O Man]

17. Correct.

Especially in the era when Jesus lived. It is intended as a symbolic truth, not a literal "fact" or a "fairy tale."

[madmom]

38. Or..

god created Adam by blowing the breath of life into dust.He was lonely so god took a rib from Adam and created Eve.They married.If they were the first who were Cain and Abels wives?

[Tesha]

36. "Belief in any gods is belief in fairy tales."

There. I said it.

Tesha

[back2basics909]

5. I keep telling myself...

.. for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Then i sit waiting for the backlash to come. When this nightmare is over and I can move on I will be joining a group to help try to remove the zero rated tax status of the advocacy churches.

[Karenina]

7. Great post, Solomon!

:loveya:

[Solomon]

14. Ah, Karenina! My first love (and only love) at DU.

It is with extreme guilt that I make this post. I literally grew up in church and was as sure of the tales as the five fingers on my hand.

Investigating your beliefs makes one feel guilty. I've spent years and years investigating and the conclusions I'm coming too make me feel guilty.

[Orrex]

11. Magnificent points--I admire your optimism!

This bit:

It amazes me that children learn to get over this hurdle (of believing in Santa Claus), as painful as it is, but adults, cling ever more tenaciously to an even more absurd tale.

is particularly good, IMO.

I confess that I can't bring myself to share your optimism; I fear that the rise of religion's obvious insanity may be an indicator that it's entering a growth spurt, rather than dying. But I hope that I'm wrong.

By the way--congratulations to you for being part of the 1% of Internet users who knows that it's "throes" rather than "throws." :)

[salinen]

16. Rather expected

from a guy calling himself Soloman.

hehe.

[Solomon]

27. Yeah. I bought into it big time. I couldn't go to sleep at night without

reading my bible. Solomon was my favorite character because he loved wisdom. I was really really into it. I began investigating some thirty years ago when I left home for college.

I cannot abandon my reason. I just can't. So I feel guilty.

[Toots]

21. You remind me of Cheney and "Insurgents are in their death throws"

Religion has been around as long as mankind and you think it is miraculously going to end soon? :crazy:

[The Kicker]

23. "But I refuse to elevate form over substance."

Is not "form over substance" the whole of the religious rightwing nut philosophy? The administration in Washington is nothing but form over substance. All the show and blow of the Hummer drivers and yellow ribbon magnets. I don't think most of the people taken in by the likes of Robertson,Fallwell,bin Laden,etc. even have a clue about substance. In order to foster substance over form,people have to let go of their fascination with image and how other people see them.

Unfortunately,at least in the United States, us "consumers" are fed an unending diet of form over substance. We are addicted to form over substance ,by and large. IMO, solve this problem and you solve most societal problems.

[Me.]

29. I Agree

and while they are in the thrall of their ecstasies, they don't even see what is happening. There will come a day when they will look up from their ferocious evangelism and see the ground has disappeared beneath them. Though I guess they might consider the earth moving a miracle too.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. My only contribution to this discussion will be

that if all the churches and synagogues and mosques disappeared overnight and their congregations disbanded, you'd soon see the ripple effects of the loss of the only safety net that exists in some communities.

Are the secular people ready to organize and take over feeding and clothing the poor, providing free medical care, building affordable housing, sponsoring refugees, keeping homeless people overnight in their basements, tutoring the illiterate,and all sorts of other beneficial works that mainstream churches perform day in and day out without proselytizing?

[Solomon]

33. Yes Lydia that will happen because of the innate nature of "most"

human beings in caring for each other. The form is not important. The substance will remain.

[GoBlue]

34. God doesn't need religion...

and he gave me a soul to prove that neither do I.

[Solomon]

37. Organized religion as it is presently constituted is mind control.

[Maple]

35. I agree

I see it as sort of a last hurrah for the 'old ways', before humanity moves on.

We've had a heavy dose of it for 2000 years now, and then we were becoming secular there for awhile, and now a 'revival'.

Maybe in their push to revive things, they'll go too far this time and create a backlash of revulsion.

Not that any of it is a message Jesus would recognize anyway.

[Skinner]

39. Locking.

Please read our rules regarding bigotry.