NYT: A Perilous Journey From Delivery Room to Bedroom

[question everything]

The New York Times

August 23, 2005

A Perilous Journey From Delivery Room to Bedroom
By KEITH ABLOW, M.D.


(snip)

Although no one seems to talk publicly about the problem, Josh is only one of dozens of men who have confided to me that witnessing the births of their children has made it difficult for them to be attracted to their wives, at least in the short run. They seem to have trouble seeing them as sexual beings after seeing them make babies, trouble reverting to a mind-set in which their wives' sexual anatomy is just that - not associated with images of new life emerging through the birth canal.

In the age of the "new man," very little consideration is given to the potentially negative side effects of togetherness in the delivery room. Every man I have spoken with over the past few years knows he is expected to be with his wife when his child comes into the world. How can anyone explain sitting out such a life-changing moment in the waiting room? The trouble is that the moment turns out to be both intensely beautiful and potentially traumatic.

(snip)

And not every man gets over it. Several men have confessed to me that they never regained the same romantic view of their wives that they had before seeing them deliver children... In the most striking cases, the symptoms that men experience come close to post-traumatic stress disorder, with its roots in the witnessing of an event that involves a threat to the physical integrity of self or others and responding with intense fear, helplessness or horror.

(snip)

I do not believe that most men suffer these symptoms. But some do. And predicting which men will be vulnerable to them is nearly impossible in a social climate in which men who admit reticence about being present in the delivery room risk being labeled throwbacks. The fact that the subject is taboo also means that a man who is traumatized by the experience may be retraumatized again and again, with each child born to him.

(snip)

Whether the father is present in the delivery room is a couple's personal decision, of course. But it is a decision that involves potential gains and potential losses, and too few couples realize that fact or are willing to talk about it.

Women may want to consider the risks as they invite their partners to watch them bring new life into the world. For some of the passion that binds them together may leave their lives at the very same time.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/23/health/23case.html

[LynzM]

1. While I agree,

I also think that a father can choose to be there, and sit or stand so that he is watching his partner's face, instead of her vagina, if it makes him very uncomfortable.

But I suppose maybe you can't realize while it's going on that it will have those sorts of effects. Hrm.

It makes me sad that birth has become such a 'thing' that actually seeing it is enough to turn a man away from someone he loves, in terms of intimacy, forever. But that's more a critique of society than any man who experiences this happening...

[thedailyshow]

2. *rants*

what a fucking stupid article!

"I think one of the main reasons I don't feel attracted to my wife is that I saw her give birth three times. It's like I know too much about that part of her."

WTF?? Yes, you know, my wife's vagina was peachy when I was blowing my wad into it, but once I realized it had other potential uses, well, things just weren't the same!

"Women may want to consider the risks as they invite their partners to watch them bring new life into the world. For some of the passion that binds them together may leave their lives at the very same time."

Holy shit, I swear to god, I'm going to go apeshit. Because when we're preparing to give birth, our main concern should be, "But what if he doesn't want to fuck me anymore?!

*headdesk*

[Southpaw Bookworm]

3. What she said!

Is there a term for this: Vaginophobes?

:grr:

[thedailyshow]

4. thanks!

This article is just blatantly stupid. Of course the men would have issues with us giving birth in front of them because it's the first time they realize our bodies weren't solely created for their pleasure and objectification.

Poor babies, and I think I'm hearing the waaaaaahmbulance coming for them now, heh.

[shadowknows69]

10. If he saw her giving birth 3 times

he must have been able to get it up at least twice after the first one. Either that or the postman always rings twice.

[mcar]

23. Sing it, sister

My first thought on reading this article was "oh the poor widdle mans."

Oh, yeah, let's all make sure we have our makeup on, and we're wearing our best negligee while we give birth because we don't want our guys poor, fragile selves to think we're unattractive anymore.

To the selfish, self-centered, self-absorbed jerks quoted in this article, I say:

Bite me.

End rant. I feel so much better now.

[seabeyond]

5. well i understand and am empathitic. i gave my husband the choice

i did not make him feel i needed him in there. really prior to the experience i kinda didnt want him in the room. but he would have none of it. and he did just fine.

i wouldnt beat up a man if he chose not to

[MountainLaurel]

6. Fascinating stuff

Wonder if anyone has studied what's behind this phenomenon: the idea of the vagina they know and love stretched beyond recognition, seeing your partner in pain, or, as someone mentioned above, men realizing that women have a higher calling besides being a sex toy and the power they hold? Also, I'd be curious to know if partners such as these are more likely to resent their children and less likely to play a more equal role in parenting.

[question everything]

7. I think that men, in general, are more squeamish

and they don't like needles, either.

The article was written by an M.D. who, obviously, has met men with this problem. It really does not help anyone to complain about the story and about the men. I am sure that they just cannot help it.

Many years ago I remember hearing about a couple where the man had to help with delivery on the way to the hospital and after that could not touch his wife, sexually, anymore and they divorced. Of course, I am talking a man from two generations ago.

And there is always the topic of whore vs. madonna. Men who admire their wives as the mothers of their children, putting them on a pedestal and than rarely touching them. They use prostitutes for their pleasure.

Even in "Sex and the City," one of the characters married a doctor, of all things, who was just not interested in sex with his wife. He relieved his stress with a magazine (Jugs, I think) and never even made the connection of what he was doing to his wife.

The bottom line for women giving birth, really, is what is more important. Demanding their husbands view the whole thing, knowing that they may lose them and chancing it, or growing up and be mature enough to realize that it is not worth fighting about.

[bloom]

8. Well I think men should just get over it.

For Gawds sakes - the women are the ones going through it.

If possible - the men should get psychological help without letting their partners know what idiots they are - because if the women know how "traumatized" the men are just by watching they might tell them all to go to hell.

[pitohui]

11. you can't get over a matter of taste

i don't know how realistic it is to tell someone to get over it & feel passion again for a woman he has seen w. an entire baby's bloody body coming out

no medicine, no talking to, can change people's visceral sexual responses

i've always thought my friends who allowed their hubs in the birth room were making a big mistake

our grandmothers were wise women to make this a woman's business

i'm a private person, i don't need my hub breathing down my neck when it's time to focus on giving birth

maybe a minority opinion but still a valid one

even if my hub wanted to watch, he can freaking forgeddaboutit

[mongo]

12. Seeing the birth of my daughter

didn't affect my sexual desire for my (first) wife - except to make sure she was really ready and healed when we did it for the first time after the delivery.

It was one of the most emotional experiences of my life. She did it without drugs (her insistance) and it was rather animalistic but quite an uplifting and amazing event.

[pitohui]

16. you sound like a terrific man, mongo, but...

my giving birth shouldn't be abt providing an uplifting experience for the man

sorry

it's not a performance

sometimes it isn't about you

i'm in pain, i'm doing a very difficult job, i don't want to be concerned w. my performance or how i look or what inspiration i'm providing to others at the time

let me have a little feminine mystery

[mongo]

21. It was never about me

It was about holding her hand, helping her into the shower during early labor (she had our daughter at a birthing center), cool rag on the forehead, listening, etc.

I barely managed to sneak a look at the actual process. I was mostly up there at her head, with her - the midwife was taking care of the rest.

But hey, if you're not comfortable, that's cool too.

I just don't understand the men in who were the subject of the story. I would have a hard time imagining it being anything more than a small percentage.

[mcar]

24. Giving birth is the height of feminine mystery

Again, we seem to be falling for the stereotype of the woman who must always be alluring.

If you're in pain with childbirth, who better to be there with you than your significant other, your helpmate, your partner, the guy who got you pregnant? Believe me, the last thing I thought about when I was having my kids was how I looked. And any inspiration my husband got he got without me worrying about it.

And here's something else: it's his kid too. Why the mystery? Why shouldn't he be there to see his child come into the world?

What's next -- the man shouldn't have to change diapers because seeing his baby's poop might cause him to lose affection for his beautiful child?

[MountainLaurel]

26. What's next -- from another blog

Paraphrased:

So, if my husband sees me vomit, he's never gonna want another blow job?

[mcar]

28. Perfect!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[bloom]

31. Seeing as how

this is a common process for all women - he should be able to generalize the idea that sex leading to childbirth is going to have that result no matter who the woman is - not just the one whose birthing he is viewing. Unless he is so freaked out he doesn't want to have sex with any woman after the experience - in which case - he should get some professional help anyway. And perhaps get a vasectomy if he can't handle the results. I don't have any sympathy for them - I guess that is obvious. :)

Actually - I don't think it would be a bad idea for boys (12-13 - and girls for that matter) to see at least a movie of the process - so they don't have some idea that sex is all about some ideal woman (and how big her non-lactating breasts are) - that it's about life - and life can be a messy process. It's all so sanitized on TV.

[gkhouston]

32. if I had any say in the matter, I'd do it a year or two earlier,

as part of a sex education class and have them watch a film of a natural birth. And then let the kids be parents of one of those annoying electronic dolls that has to be "fed" at regular intervals by being held just so and having a key inserted into its back so they get a fraction of a clue as to what caring for a newborn is like. I think there would be fewer teen pregnancies and perhaps fewer STDS as well.

[mixedview]

39. you're not getting it - it isn't about seeing the birth and being familiar

with the process. Most guys - especially younger guys - have seen live births many times on Discovery Channel, TLC, etc.

It's not the blood, gore, whatever.. we aren't disgusted or scared of those things.

It has to do with sexual attraction for that specific woman, who they now see as a mother and associate her body/vagina with the child.

There is a psychiatric term for this.. madonna/whore something. This can happen to guys who don't even witness the birth, where they start to think of their wife as a good, "pure", saintly, motherly, madonna figure - and thus can't have sex with her.

Every man has this going on in his head to some degree, it's just that most can see the sexy/whore side and the madonna side in the same woman, depending on the situation/mood.

The men with this problem cannot.

[bloom]

41. And what I'm saying is

there are too many images that give guys this impression - that sex is not connected to birth and not enough images, etc. to give them context that sex is about birth/life. It wouldn't have to be so.

Women - starting with the onset of puberty - are reminded every month. There really isn't any getting around it. (Unless a person identifies him or herself as gay - so there is no connection with sex to the creation of life.)

[scarletwoman]

50. I'm totally with you on this, birthing is a woman's business.

My first child was delivered by emergency C-section. I was rushed off to the O.R. and put under general anaesthesia, so having my husband there turned out to not be an option anyway.

My second child was born at home with midwives and my closest women friends in attendence. My husband was there too, but I really didn't like it, and would have much preferred to have had only the women around me so I didn't have to worry about how he was dealing with it on top of everything else.

So there I was protecting his feelings -- which meant I didn't speak the truth that I wanted him out of there. It was still a wonderful experience overall, but I really regretted that I let myself be sucked into the having-your-male-partner-present thing.

It ended up that I never had a third child (I'm way past my childbearing years now) -- if I had, that birthing would have been strictly women only.

sw

[pitohui]

9. even worse are the sickos who want to film the birth

maybe i'm old-fashioned but i don't want a man in the room while i'm trying to give birth, there's a limit, i've never understood this fad, you're in pain & you're trying to accomplish something, it shouldn't be abt a performance for the man

even worse are the men who want to film the thing, hello, it ain't film school, dudes, thankfully, this fad seems to have passed, at least in my circle

[mixedview]

13. We men have the right to our feelings and desires, even

though some people wish we didn't.

Love and sex are two very different things, especially for men. Sometimes the woman you love isn't the one you're most sexually attracted to. This doesn't make a man a bad person.

Pregnancy, children, motherhood. In general, these are not sexually appealing things to a man - especially if he views the birth and can't get the images out of his head. He may start to think too much of his wife as "a mom", and on some level his own mom. He may start to associate his wife's body/vagina with his child. Which normal man wants to put his penis in a place he associates with his mother or his child ? I can see how it could be troubling for some men, and they have the right to feel how they do without being villified.

[question everything]

14. Thank you. Well said n/t

[Book Lover]

15. Actually, no, within a mature marriage structure

you do not have the right to be immature. The Madonna/Whore issue is a problem to be fixed, not an association to be worked around.

[mixedview]

35. So - sexual and emotional problems are immaturity now ?

So if the woman has sexual problems - as many do, i.e. can't have sex because of some disturbing experience or thoughts - then is she also "immature" ? Or is it only immaturity when men have problems ? :eyes:

[pitohui]

17. well i absolutely agree w. you

as a woman i feel giving birth is woman's business

i want privacy at such a time

i don't think desire is something that can be faked or changed by counseling or scolding

[mixedview]

36. Exactly - desire is what it is. /eom

[steve2470]

18. I watched my ex-wife have a c-section with my son

It didn't slow me down one iota. My ex was beautiful but the rest of her did slow me down, unfortunately.

[Solly Mack]

19. Well, it's not like there aren't more men in the world

[Krupskaya]

20. What's that? You can't look at your wife like a sex object anymore?

How very, very sad for you. Asshole.

ETA: "Women may want to consider the risks"? Men may want to reexamine their attitudes, methinks.

[mongo]

22. I agree with you here

I think these men must have more problems with women and sex in general to begin with.

[mixedview]

40. that may be so, but men should have the right to their feelings

and should be able to work through the problem without being villified.

After all, most men would support their wife/gf if she were to have a sexual/psychological/emotional problem.

Why the double standard ? Because men are expected to be strong and women are expected to be weak ?

[bloom]

45. Maybe because women are the ones who actually

have to give birth - to actually experience the pain. What the hell are you talking about - women expected to be weak. Women are the strong ones.

So men can choose to watch or not and then they want they want to act like babies.

If they can have sex - they can suck it up and watch. If you aren't mature enough to witness the act of birth - don't engage. Women can grow up pretty damn fast going through the birthing process and the man can grow right along with her - if he doesn't have his head up his ass.

[mcar]

25. Exactly

Can someone please tell these jerks that it's not always about them? Now we've not only got to give birth, we need to do it in a pretty way so their poor little illusions are not broken.

[Modem Butterfly]

27. No offense to all my liberal brothers on DU...

But how on earth did you guys get to run the entire planet for a good portion of human history when you can't even handle a little thing like live birth?

[Krupskaya]

30. Bwaa!

nt

[mixedview]

37. We can handle it just fine, our sex drives can't

Those men who are affected by this are capable of having sex with other women and living a normal life. They just can't have sex with the woman they saw give birth.

[bloom]

42. People are also affected by self-talk

You (and others) don't have to tell yourself this is true until you cannot believe otherwise.

[mixedview]

43. Yes, people are. /eom

[EnfantTerrible]

29. I can only speak for myself

Experiencing and taking part in the birth of our daughter was the most incredible moment of my life. It served to strengthen and deepen an already profound respect for my wife. As with Mongo, my wife also gave birth without drugs (her choice) and no easy birth... our daughter came "face present" (this multiplies the circumference of the head by about 3). They were preparing the OR for caesarian, but my lady did it au natural. The staff at the hospital couldn't believe it. She is our first child so we really didn't know any different... however, I have a new respect and admiration for the lady I love. One that only enhances the physical attraction. I am now, as I was then, grateful to my lady for not only allowing me to be a part of the birth, but for requesting that I share it with her.

Ladies have a higher threshold for pain than any man I've ever met.

[bemildred]

38. Yeah, I always thought it was cool to help out.

Man, they can get grumpy though ...
:-)

[Kber]

33. What strikes me about the article / doctor warning us to consider

the risks of inviting our partners to watch is the assumption that, if after the birth of our child, he can't get it up, it's somehow OUR fault.

After all, we were the ones who invited them in right?

I mean, how about "Men ought to consider the risks of watching the birthing process." Christ, take some responsibility for something for God's sake. Thank God I had the good sense to marry a GROWN UP!

(Sorry for yelling, but I gave birth about 4 months ago and don't think I'd have ANY patience for more than one baby in my life right now!)

[Cats Against Frist]

34. I'm sorry, I have no sympathy,

but, at the same time, I accept that the condition exists, and that many men don't know what to do about it. As various posters, above, have stated, it's more a problem with society than anything else. I'm a firm believer that most of the reasons that people end up on a psychologist's/psychiatrist's couch is because of the ignorant, stupid, confining, constructed mores, customs and "norms," that we enshrine, in our culture -- when we, as humans, are not "normal," are never "normal," and we spend our lives trying to live up to some bullshit that keeps us all "in our places."

I'd like to hear "Mondo Joe" chime in, on this, because I know that he's a porn advocate, and we've "butted heads" before -- even though, as a libertarian, I don't advocate an outright ban of pornography, though I think most of it is disgusting, and contributes to this very problem -- especially soft-core porn that doesn't even show bodily fluids -- just "Barbie" and her teased hair, high-heeled boots, red lipstick and shaved cooter. Barbie and Brad, moving their television bodies, in unison, to some "Total Eclipse of the Heart," bullshit, in the background.

Even after years of so-called "women's liberation," we still have the third-wave feminists amongst us who think it's fine to perpetuate this sterotype, so long as they don't get raped, not to mention, the scores of women who play along, obliviously. (Reminds me of that church lady skit with Jessica Hahn: "as long as I'M in charge of being used and degraded.").

Victoria's Secret had an ad campaign that was titled "What is Sexy?" and then, they proceeded to tell us: tall, tan, stick-like models with perky round boobs, three-tone, teased hair in various kinds of see-through fabrics. Women with no names (at least not to the people who aren't pathetic losers and follow the lives of Victoria's Secret models), no troubles, no voices, and, heavens -- NO CHILDREN!!

I think that most people can play "cognitive dissonance," only so far -- when normal people, who are far from "model material," get themselves shaved, corsetted, powdered and perfumed up to play "I'll Take Manhattan," in bed, and conduct their lives as if this is the holy grail of human existence -- it sorely, has to stop at the (literal) doorway of the realities of the vagina, and human worth, and human creation. That's what's happened to these men -- it's not "mommy syndrome," or fear of women -- because I'd bet a large percentage of them still spank it to Miss November. It's a boxed-in, conditioned view of the human body, and of human existence.

[mixedview]

44. I don't think it's a problem with society or environment

I think it's a problem with nature/heredity, as most psychological problems are.. depression, for example. Some people are predisposed to certain problems due to their genetic makeup, IMO.

[Blue_Tires]

47. good insight n/t

[mongo]

49. Sorry but I don't buy it

I'd like to hear "Mondo Joe" chime in, on this, because I know that he's a porn advocate, and we've "butted heads" before -- even though, as a libertarian, I don't advocate an outright ban of pornography, though I think most of it is disgusting, and contributes to this very problem -- especially soft-core porn that doesn't even show bodily fluids -- just "Barbie" and her teased hair, high-heeled boots, red lipstick and shaved cooter. Barbie and Brad, moving their television bodies, in unison, to some "Total Eclipse of the Heart," bullshit, in the background.

First, It's mongo or Don - but I prefer mongo.

And I've never bought into your argument. We also see many, many murders on TV and in movies, yet we haven't become a nation of murderers.

Which is the short version of the answer, but I don't really want to take this thread too far off topic.

What I find interesting is the various responses by women, and I'm paraphrasing here, to "grow up" "be mature", etc., and mixedview's acceptance of the fact that we all have our issues and we should have some sensitivity to that. (see above in this thread). Actually, some of the posts were quite misandrist and if such generalizations and characterizations were made about women, there would be many deleted posts and even more flaming going on - but if it is sexism against men, even by some of the women who call men on their speech, it's just accepted at DU.

Soooo, now you bring up the whole "media image of women/pornography, impossible standards of beauty" tempest in a teapot as a causal factor in men not wanting sex with their wives after seeing a birth. I think that's just a red herring.

I'm a curmudgeon, and I am more in agreement with the "grow up" crowd, both in the case in point in this thread, and about all the perceived injustices media and our society are doing to women who are "compelled and/or hurt" by some impossible standard of beauty that is "imposed" on them by society.

If we really want to turn this into that discussion, I would suggest that you start another thread and PM me. I'd hate to be accused of "turning another thread into an argument about porn".

I must go do what the TV tells me to. :rofl:

[redacted]

46. Disgusting! I mean if I gotta give birth the LEAST my hubby can do is hold

my hand.

Christ did any one of these men bother to get therapy over this? Or is that just as taboo as childbirth.

[girl gone mad]

48. What nonsense.

I wonder if the good doctor bothered to talk to any of the wives. One of the most common complaints I hear from friends and relatives who have very recently given birth is that their husbands won't stop bugging them for sex.

I can say that after going through labor, sex was about the last thing on earth I wanted to do for a looooong time. So... maybe women shouldn't be in the delivery room, either? :shrug: