Hypothetical: Let's say the "drug war" is totally junked

[steve2470]

OK, billions of dollars are saved. Drug possessors are taken out of the legal system. Sounds great so far.

My only concerns are: a) juvenile possession and usage; b) addiction; and c) collateral damage so to speak, such as intoxicated driving.

I'm open-minded to feedback on these issues. Thank you in advance. :-)

[steve2470]

1. Denver initiative would legalize adult possession, use

http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4028707,00.html

By April M. Washington, Rocky Mountain News
August 25, 2005

Denver would become the second city in the nation to legalize the adult use of marijuana if voters approve a ballot measure in November.

The first city was Oakland, Calif.

[intheflow]

13. Thanks for posting this.

I just got back yesterday from camping in the mountains, and hadn't seen this. As a Denver resident, this is news I can use.

[steve2470]

16. You're so welcome ! nt

[jobycom]

2. Those are easy

If drugs are decriminalized, they can be regulated like alcohol or cigarettes. No one under 18 can by them. Since there is juvie possession and usage now, things won't be made worse, and they might be made better as the motive for targeting youngsters might be reduced.

Addiction: We have it now. Set aside some tax revenue from drugs for better treatment and public education. If drugs aren't illegal, there will be less resistance to seeking help for addiction.

C) Collateral damage. This is a problem. It already exists. When drugs are decriminalized, take that opportunity to strengthen, severely, punishment for public intoxication, especially DUI, and all other crimes committed while on drugs. You'll have plenty of free jail space and courtrooms to handle the burden, even.

Disclaimer: I have never, not do I plan to ever, take any recreational drug, whether they are legal of not. But it's a crime against human rights that they are criminalized.

[Extend a Hand]

3. OH NO! Then how would the CIA

finance their covert ops?
:sarcasm:

[txaslftist]

8. You make a better point sarcastically than you realize.

The only thing that would be more disastrous to the government in this "war on drugs" than legalization would be if people just stopped using them.

[Viking12]

4. These folks have some solutions...

Law Enforcement Against Prohibition

They suggest treating currently illegal drugs in the same manner we treat alcohol.

a) laws against selling to minors.
b) providing treatment facilities w/ tax revenue & savings from drug war.
c) Actively enforce DUI laws.

http://www.leap.cc/

[ProfessorGAC]

5. I'll Take A Stab

a) juvenile possession and usage
Is this really a problem now? If the answer is yes, then the current prohibitions are not preventing the very concern you have. If the answer is no, then there is no reason to believe that decriminalization will exacerbate the situation. There is no kid in this country who can't get drugs NOW, if they really want them.

b) Addiction; same answer. If it's a problem for society now, and the drugs are illegal, what sociological or psychosocial construct exists that would suggest a worsening. Remember that per capita consumption of alcohol went UP during Prohibition, especially of ADULTS 18 - 30. The total amount of alcohol consumed went down just a little, but only half as many people were drinking. There are psychosocial constructs that suggest that drug use and drinking are actually encouraged by their "forbidden fruit" status.

c) The stats for DUI are inflated and overstated as it is. And, once again, the prohibitions in place are NOT stopping people from using or abusing drugs.

If there was very good causative data to suggest that legalization or decriminalization of drugs show INCREASES in any of your areas of concern, then it would be an impediment to the initiative. But, there is no such dataset. When locales have decrimmed, there have been no such increases in usage or abuse. (Check out Alaska's stats when they decriminalized. The frequency of DUI for ALCOHOL went down!)

Rather, the "allure" of these prohibited substance make it such that it has to be done in secret, and like a little kid with the bottle of bleach, in big gulps before someone catches you. Removing the penalties would have the effect of making it a commodity.

Anything can abused by anybody. Most people won't abuse it. Some will. Nothing about the current law changes that fact. Revoking a pointless and ineffectual set of laws will neither increase nor decrease those fractions. The laws AREN'T WORKING NOW! To suggest an increase in any of your areas of concern is to rationalize some positive effect of these laws where none are proven.
The Professor

[junkiebrewster]

6. Allow me to weigh in...

As one who used heroin for close to ten years, I can maybe give you some insight on this. For the record, I am now clean and have been for close to three years. (Go me!)

1. I can tell you with all honesty that not one heroin dealer ever asked me to show an ID. Consequently, I was able to procure heroin at the age of seventeen. As a matter of fact, it was easier for me to get actual illegal drugs than alcohol. So, prohibition effectively encourages juveniles to possess/ use illegal drugs. Under a harm reduction / legalization model, juvenile use would be easier to regulate.

2. Addiction is tricky. Opiate addicts can lead fairly stable lives provided that they have access to a cheap, reliable source of drugs. This is the reasoning behind methadone clinics in this country and heroin giveaways in other countries like Canada. The drugs provided under these types of programs are labratory grade, so the dangers of impurities in the drugs or alternating dosage amounts are removed. However, other addictions, such as cocaine or meth would present different problems due to the nature of the drugs. For example, cocaine/ crack addicts generally tend to compulsively take drugs until they run out of money. While legal drugs would be cheap, it wouldn't leave much time for work or school or whatever else. Meth is just nasty, but, theoretically, under legalization the addicts would use Adderal or something similar.

3. DWI should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. There are various drug tests that can detect the prescence of drugs that could be administered by the police. One involves swabbing the inside of the mouth, I think.

At the very least, marijuana should be made fully legal and taxed. The revenue raised by the taxation of pot growers and users could then be spent on treatment of hard drug addicts. Anyhoo, that's my two cents.

[txaslftist]

7. Never Happen.

Way too much of our federal resources are devoted to the "war on drugs" for them ever to be made legal. The feds gain too much power through the war on drugs; example:siezure of assets, searches without warrants, phone taps, access to financial records, etc.

As long as their activity falls under the penumbra of the "war on drugs" all the conservative judges on the federal benches will pretty much let them get away with whatever they want.

Plus you have several ginormous agencies devoted to (and recieving a lot of money, for) the "war on drugs". There's the law enforcement apparatus, the mandatory treatment apparatus, the prison apparatus and the asset seizure and forfeiture apparatus, all of which would be useless without the war on drugs.

Just look at how difficult it is to close down an air force base that has outlived its usefulness. Imagine the difficulty of shooting down the entire federal anti-drug bureaucracy (to say nothing of your local, state run, task-force).

Legalization of drugs is, ironically, a "pipe dream".

[the_spectator]

9. Here's another GREAT benefit from ending the drug war -

Legalize drugs, and a year or two after that, the whole "gangsta" fad in popular culture will die.

Now of course the main consumers of this stuff are white suburban kids. So it's pretty fake right there. But that whole construct is founded on and rests upon some fundamental claim of "authenticity"-- the thug living the street life. But without his money, he's nothing. Start selling pot in CVS instead of on the street-corner, and he won't HAVE his money any more. The tough-guy life loses ALL of its GLAMOR when it loses its MONEY. People like 50 Cent would cease to be cultural forces.

So by legalizing drugs, you will eventually (and none too slowly) help put a major dent in a lot of ugliness -- things like the new misogyny, for example -- the whole pimp/ho paradigm, the glamorization of violence, etc.

Legalize drugs, build a happier world! :smoke:

[RaleighNCDUer]

10. The greatest collateral damage is the criminalizing of the lower

class, creating a permanent underclass.

I think it is a given that most drug use exists in the third of the population at the lowest economic tier. Additionally, the poorest of those who are arrested on drug charges are the least likely to be able to afford a competent defense. After conviction, they are the least likely to be employable, they are disenfranchised, and most likely to turn to crime to support themselves, thus confirming their class status.

The war on drugs is class warfare, waged by the wealthy, who control the drug trade, against the poor, who are the dealers and users.

Part of the allure of drugs for kids is the fact that they are illegal. That makes getting and using them cool (am I showing my age with that term?). Because the kids are savvy enough to know that grass is basically harmless, and see the way it is treated, why should they believe the scare stories about X, meth, crack, heroin? A reality based approach to drugs would make them less attractive.

[mzteris]

23. This is the best argument

out there.

Every thing else is true, too - but for pure "cost savings" - decriminalization would free up tons of $$ (jails/prisons/enforcement, etc.....) that would be better spent on education.

[emcguffie]

11. same as alcohol.

but probably less impairing, at least several drugs that are abused, that is.

[jonkronz2003]

12. Just a thought so be kind....

Instead of only decriminalizing drugs, how about the US govt took the money saved when we disband the DEA and fired some prosecutors and prison guards and used that money to buy drugs directly from suppliers (this has got to be much cheaper than the money we're wasting now on the loosing drug war). Then they could give the drugs away for free (eliminates the need to steel for drug money). My only requirement for free drugs would be that the person who wants to indulge would need to "check" himself into a jail cell until he/she is no longer under the influence.

Just a thought..

[junkiebrewster]

14. well...

That would make prison costs outrageous. Shit, some people would never leave.

[jonkronz2003]

15. costs stay the same

instead of convicted drug users we have voluntary drug users watched over by fewer guards because they aren't trying to escape :)

[junkiebrewster]

18. good point...

I didn't think of it that way. Sign me up for guard duty!!!!

[High Plains]

25. That would be socialism!

Actually, your idea is quite reasonable. There is a conference in Kabul next month where the topic is dealing with the opium problem there by buying up all the opium and diverting it into the legal medicinal market, making opioid pain meds cheap enough for the Third World.

The only clunker is the notion that anyone who wanted government drugs would have to go to jail to use them. Why? Would you apply this to alcohol drinkers as well?

[NorCalDem]

17. You could use all the $$ you save from the "war"

and put a small fraction of it towards the health care and rehabilitation costs of drug addicts. Drugs are a health problem anyway, not a criminal problem. That will deal with problems (b) and (c), and as everyone else pointed out, problem (a) isn't really a problem to begin with.

The only barriers to drug legalization are pharmaceutical companies lobbying and the $$ made by those agencies in charge of running the "war on drugs." Since it's our taxpayer money anyway, those two concerns shouldn't be concerns at all!

[catmandu57]

19. How about we put drug legalization on our political agenda

along with a host of other populist issues. Just echoing reptilian lite and family values isn't fucking working, these are reptilian buzz issues.
Let's build a populist base that outnumbers the guns god and gays faction, hell I bet even some of them would vote for our side, not that they would admit it, but this isn't working.

[jonkronz2003]

20. A personal opinion..

I've always felt that the only reason marijuana has never been legalized (it's about morally equivalent to alcahol consumption) is that it's so easy to grow yourself that the feds can't think of an effective way to tax it. Therefore the way to make money on it is through fines.

[wli]

21. not terribly realistic but a very worthy cause

CIA black budget funding, cops tied up into forfeiture/seizure/etc., prison industry, etc. would all get their panties in a bunch.

[porphyrian]

22. a) juveniles already have them...

b) people aren't going to run out and get drug addicted just because we end the "drug war," and c) like b), are you going to run out, get high, and drive around just because the "drug war" is ended? Neither is anyone else. Irresponsible people aren't waiting for a change in policy to alter their behavior.

[Wizard777]

24. Licensing and Regulation. NOW!

Right now we are incurring more collateral damage from this paramilitary civil war than benefits. You would think that Americans of all people on this earth would know that NOTHING good ever comes from the denial of freedom and liberty. At least we Democrats understand that with freedom and liberty comes great responsibility. Those who shun their responsibility and cause harm create a debt to society. This debt must be paid with the revocation of freedom and liberty of the irresponsible.

In the City I love Baltimore, Maryland. The once great "City That Reads" has been made "The City That Bleeds" by this Paramilitary Civil War. The Federal Declaration of War issued by President Ronald Reagan (R) has induced the State and Local jurisdictions to insanity. This Federal Paramilitary civil war requires "THEM" to do the same things over and over expecting different results. In Baltimore Mayor Martin O'Malley (D) (We call him MOM.) Is riding a mandate to keep the homicides under 300. He is having some success at that with a Aggressive Policing. But that also involves the use of anti constitutional tactics that are currently being interpreted as legal.

I don't entirely blame MOM for Baltimore Woe's and ill's. Lets just say, Baltimore got Sick long before Dr. MOM arrived. But it's not too late to Save Our City. The lowly Mayor of Baltimore is powerless to change Federal Law. He must work within the framing of the Federal and State Governments. This keeps the true answer to Baltimore's woes and ills out of his reach. The peace provided by freedom and liberty. Once we find peace in the Paramilitary Civil War on Drugs. "The City That Heals" is not far from the other side of that rainbow. It may even be an Emerald City. ;) Baltimore has fortunate to have some of the best Hospitals in the country if not the World call it Home. As we all know. "There is no place like home." We need to SOC it to the Fed!

With licensing and regulation we will inherit a world of good, peace, and good will between neighbors country wide. That is the most immediate benefit of Legalization. Neighbors can stop suspecting each other. They can throw away their Community Association lists of possible enemies. They ALL can go back to being the best neighbors they possibly can. No more family tragedies like the Dawson's. They were burned to death in their home as Spies (Police informants) in the Paramilitary Civil War on Drugs. By people who would otherwise be their neighbors and fellow Americans.

We also Inherit the Safety of Accurate Knowledge with Legalization. This is a two way street. The responsible consumer will know that the product is genuine and of a predetermined quality. There will be scientifically proven dangers on warning labels. Such as. Excessive dosage will cause Death. This product is Physically Addictive. This eliminates dangers posed by "look alike substances" and unknown purity.

Databases can be established to help educate and guide consumers in their Choices. Such as, Sir you gave recently purchased Heroin. There has not ben sufficient time for this to leave your system. Mixing cocaine with that can cause heart failure. It confuses the parasympathetic nervous system with conflicting chemical commands. The heroin is tell the heart to slow down. The cocaine is telling it to speed up. The hearts decision is to quit working until the brain gets it story straight. Speed up or slow down? Pick one! Thus call addictions management. Also Protection against dangerous adulterants.

We will also have tracking information. Who has how much of what drugs and where. No more seek and destroy unless the drugs come from outside the system. We place the drugs in the hands of strictly regulated and inspected corporation that won't sell to kids. Not seedy individuals that will sell to anyone with the cash. The drug business becomes and open book with regular inspections. We know where the money is coming from and going to. No more funding religious terrorists or narco terrorists. We just captured a 200 billion dollar a year industry to help fund that fight. We also gain the loyalty of drug users that would become Americans living in freedom with liberty and responsibility. Not the enemy and potential internal combatants. Americans will fight for their freedom. So lets return it to them.

The benefits will not be confined entirely to drug users. Communities will regain their occupied street corners and neighborhoods. Hey kid you wanna make a lot of money selling drugs? STAY IN SCHOOL. Then go to college and get a degree in pharmacology, apothecarian arts, and addictions management. Congratulations you are now a drug dealer. Go help your customers live long and prosper.

Do you need more convincing? I have more. Much much more.

[bemildred]

26. Your concerns:

a) juvenile possession -- In case you have not noticed, High School is pretty much like Drug Camp, it can't get worse. If there was no money in selling shit, it would get better.

b) addiction -- Same general response. We have plenty of addicts now. If they are not threatened with jail, it's easier to do something about it, and if they can get their drug of choice cheap, they won't be tempted to burglarize your house to get a fix.

c) collateral damage -- same general response, we have plenty of collateral damage now, it's just that there is an added layer of lies and criminal justice added in on top, making it worse not better.

[Mairead]

27. The tiny minority who use drugs irresponsibly are already doing it.

because the key factor is the irresponsibility, not the type of drug being abused. Kids who want to act out can get any sort of drugs they want right now, from anywhere on the continuum from booze to pot.

Right after legalisation, there'll be a tiny spurt as everyone tries everything and a few more people fall into the clutches of addiction because they didn't know they were vulnerable. But after that inital blip, it'll level off and then actually go down a bit, as the people who use drugs as a focus for rebellion or 'cool' status find something else to impress their friends and upset their parents with.