A critical look at Venezuela's Hugo Chavez.

[CubsFan1982]

From Amnesty International:

Worldwide Appeal
VENEZUELA: Police killings and threat
http://web.amnesty.org/appeals/index/ven-010705-wwa-eng

Venezuela: Human Rights under Threat
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR530052004

Venezuela: President Chávez must recognize and respect legitimate human rights work
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR530012004

From Human Rights Watch:

Venezuela: Court Orders Trial of Civil Society Leaders
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/07/08/venezu11299.htm

Venezuela: Curbs on Free Expression Tightened
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/24/venezu10368.htm

Venezuela: Rights Lawyer Faces Judicial Persecution
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/04/05/venezu10423.htm

Venezuela: Media Law Undercuts Freedom of Expression
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/11/30/venezu9754.htm

[FlemingsGhost]

1. Ooooooooooo ... do the U.S. next! (n/t)

Flem.

[Maple]

2. Exactly...

I don't understand why people expect saints...Cuba and Venezuela are no worse than most countries...and better than many.

Saudi Arabia is both devout and capitalist...and sucks majorly.

[bribri16]

20. How correct you are. And the human rights violation in the US

would make those in Venezuela pale. A lot of our "human and civil rights violations" are done under cover of law...like endentured servitude (low minimum wages), seizing of property (latest eminent domain law by SCOTUS), spying on US citizens within the US, racist and inhumane prison system and court system, police brutality, usary by banks and credit card companies, disenfranchisement, poverty and treatment of the poor, etc.

[CubsFan1982]

22. Let me get this straight.

So having problems of our own should prohibit human rights organizations in the US from pointing out human rights violations in these countries?

Bull-fucking-shit.

[bribri16]

38. When did I say that?

A page out of the Busco spin book no doubt.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[wli]

76. RICO forfeiture laws are worse than the eminent domain ruling

Those basically let police walk off with anything and everything they want so long as they arrest the victim and accuse them of the right crime. No court proceedings necessary. I don't have good links on it but it's pretty bad.

Spying on citizens within the US is basically the fact that COINTELPRO was neither the beginning nor end of it. It goes back so far it's lost in history, but J. Edgar Hoover organized it under more central authority starting in 1924 in response to the original Red Scare (1917-1920).

Police brutality and gross violations of Posse Comitatus have been going on for just as long. In 1946 Alcatraz was the target of a full-scale military assault (according to some reports, it featured shelling by naval battleships) in retaliation for a prison riot. The incident in which Leonard Peltier was framed for murder was apparently a full-scale military assault on an Indian reservation. Follow up with Kent State, military assaults on WTO/FTAA demonstrations, the military assault on the Utah outdoor concert and so on. There have even literally been bombings on buildings in inner city areas (I know of only one, IIRC in the 1980's against a black militant group, but am hard-pressed to produce links in a timely fashion). I have little doubt that an unbroken line of such stunts going back to the Trail of Tears and the Whiskey Rebellion could be produced with sufficient research.

It goes on and on. The Holocaust against the left is centuries old.

[Blue_Tires]

151. you're talking about MOVE in Philadelphia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE

[wli]

176. thanks, very helpful n/t

[Faygo Kid]

3. Yes, he's a tinpot. And we have now propped him up.

At least he is a voice against this administration, but not a deep thinker. How about criticizing a right-winger for us this evening?

[CubsFan1982]

6. I do that every other night.

But it's time to stop treating this guy like the second coming.

[Webster Green]

10. Not the second coming....nor is he a "strong-arm dictator" (n/t)

[CubsFan1982]

17. But he's also not without fault.

To acknowledge that around here seems to be quite unpopular.

[Faygo Kid]

33. No, it's not.

We are critical thinkers here, most of us. Don't condemn this site. It's not productive.

[CubsFan1982]

42. I do not condemn the site.

I condemn the apologists for totalitarianism. There's a difference.

[TankLV]

107. Totalitarianism? Please elaborate.

How do you twist the 4 time overwhelmingly elected by over 60% margins "totalitarian"?

You must have a different dictionary.

Or is it like the definition of "bad" in today's usage (which means "good" or more accurately "cool" for the intellectually impaired).

[eridani]

71. His biggest fault is this

Though he wants evenly spread prosperity and sustainable development for the entire population of Cuba, he seems to be fixated on the notion that unless he personally micromanages everything, those things can't happen. Disagree and you go to jail.

As a dictator, however, he doesn't come anywhere near being as oppressive as some of the psychopaths we have backed in Central America, where daring to be a union organizer traditionally gets your bloody chopped-off head arranged nicely on one of your dinner plates to impress your kids when they get home.

[scarletwoman]

75. Chavez is NOT A DICTATOR!!! He's a democratically elected president!

Your point about micromanaging is true -- but for crying out loud, Chavez just won a recall vote by something like 59% only a year ago!

What does it take for people to STOP calling him a damn DICTATOR!?!?! :argh:

sw

on edit: Sorry, eridani, please don't take offense. I just can't understand why you of all people would use the "D" word for President Chavez.

[CubsFan1982]

77. As I recall...

People like Saddam Hussein and Hosni Mubarak win elections all the time. Doesn't make them legitimate.

[Kipepeo]

82. Give me a break

You can't compare Chavez to Hussein with a straight face, can you?

Chavez is a favorite of the people - just not the US government.

[nickgutierrez]

84. I've yet to see any credible evidence...

...to suggest his elections were fixed in any way, as you appear to be suggesting here.

[scarletwoman]

85. The recall election in Venezuela was internationally monitored.

Jimmy Carter himself signed off on it as free and fair. If you actually knew anything about Venezuela you would know this -- it was a pretty damn big deal last year when it all went down. EVERYBODY was watching it.

But you don't know that because you don't know anything about Venezuela and Chavez. You just suck in the bogus corporate/imperialist propaganda and regurgitate it back.

It's like the buzzing of a fly; annoying, but meaningless.

sw

[Al-CIAda]

92. Carter certified the election, but then again, Carter is a communist

too...nevermind.

:eyes:

[scarletwoman]

101. Oh man...

:spank:

[1932]

169. Actually Carter is a great friend of opposition funder Gustavo Cisneros

and he still thought the elections were OK.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

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[Media_Lies_Daily]

140. Like to add Herr Busch to that list?

[eridani]

88. Oopsie! This was supposed to go on the Castro thread!

Boy, that was dumb. Sorry.

[scarletwoman]

93. Heh. Hope you can forgive my blast of frustration.

NOW I understand, thanks. I'm hitting both threads, too.

Peace,
sw

[Brightmore]

90. Hitler was democratically elected as well

Doesn't mean he wasn't a dictator.

[scarletwoman]

100. Did Jimmy Carter sign off on Hitler's election as "free and fair"?

As I already posted, if someone actually knows something about Venezuela and Chavez, they would know that last year's recall referendum was internationally monitored and was entirely above-board.

Chavez currently enjoys a 70% approval rating in the polls in Venezuela -- it's the wealthy elite who hate him. He is using his country's oil wealth to build schools and clinics for his poorest citizens. He is distributing vacant land to poor farmers and providing a means for the urban barrio dwellers to gain title to their homes.

There are multiple political parties with representation in the legislature. Chavez is NOT a dictator.

sw

[Brightmore]

104. That's not what I meant

I said nothing about Chavez. I simply meant that just because someone is democratically elected, doesn't mean they are not a dictator.

[TankLV]

112. And this relates to Chavez how?

What are you trying to say - we are now confused.

I get that you are underhandedly trying to make the claim that Chavez is a dictator no matter what kind of electoral results he's had.

If that is the case, we have more than called you and your friends on this bullshit with examples of why this is bullshit.

[scarletwoman]

113. Of course, there are elections and there are "elections".

But this is a thread about Chavez, who IS a free and democratically elected leader. Throwing in Hitler is rather a non sequitor.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

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[Brightmore]

114. Huh?

What the heck are you talking about?

Are you saying I'm wrong about Hitler or something?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

147. You know exactly what he's stating. Quit playing games.

[stepnw1f]

118. Hitler Has Much More in Common with Bush Getting Elected

than Hugo. Ouch!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

144. Excuse me, but Hitler was APPOINTED Chancellor by Bismarck....

...but you do get a point to the good for recognizing that he was a dictator.

[Name removed]

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[Media_Lies_Daily]

157. Hitler WAS appointed Chancellor, even though he was NOT....

....appointed by Bismarck, but was instead appointed by HINDENBURG.

I freely admit the mistake about the name of the individual who appointed Hitler as Chancellor, which is much more than you'll ever admit about your comments about Chavez.

[Brightmore]

150. Bismarck died in 1898

Hitler became Chancellor in 1933.

[Judi Lynn]

156. Wrong.

Took a quick look at google:

When Hitler was appointed chancellor on January 30th 1933, it was at the head of a coalition government. It was very clear in his mind that it would not remain this way for long. By the end of March 1933, he had acquired much greater powers than the former leading politicians of the Weimar Republic could ever have foreseen when they supported his appointment as chancellor. The death of President Hindenburg in August 1934, allowed him to combine both chancellor's and president's positions into one when Hitler became the Fuehrer and Reich Chancellor.
(snip/)

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/Nazi_Germany_dictatorship.htm

[Media_Lies_Daily]

160. He was APPOINTED, not elected, right?

[Brightmore]

162. Yes

I admit I was wrong about Hitler being elected. It was the Nazi Party that was democratically elected.

Sorry.

[bobbieinok]

154. by Hindenberg.....Nazis vote had started to decline; they had to get

Hitler appointed at once.....appointed end of Jan 1933

how many national elections were there in Germany between 1929 and Dec 1932

[Brightmore]

159. March 1933 elections, Nazis won 44% of the vote and the majority of seats

Then they passed the Enabling Act and that's how Hitler got his total power.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

164. Read post #156.

[Name removed]

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[katsy]

4. There's no excuse for these violations.

There's also no country without violations.

Type in United States in their respective search options. Approximately 25 pages of violations for the US according to Amnesty and 55 pages for the US according to Human Rights Watch.

What's your point?

[CubsFan1982]

7. My point is, we don't need to coddle human rights violators.

Whether they're rightist or leftists. A lot of us seem to forget that and excuse human rights abuses because the dictator is a leftist.

[FlemingsGhost]

8. We don't have to, but we do anyway.

All the freakin' time, if you haven't noticed.

Why is Hugo and Fidel usually at the top of the list of those that need to be "dealt with?"

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

13. Agreed. What is up with this. Let's have the threads on Che Guevara,

Jane Fonda, and Angela Davis now. Let's bash all the Right's lefty boogeymen/women! Let it all hang out! :eyes:

[Al-CIAda]

9. A twice elected popular president is a 'dictator'? ok.

So how big a 'dictator' and human rights violator is G Dubya?

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[hiley]

11. Chavez is not a dictator!

:eyes:

[Faygo Kid]

12. I agree. Totally. But it's a matter of timing.

Right now, we must focus on our vacationing "president." The heat is on. We need to turn it up. I agree with you, and am open to your criticism, but I am so focused right now that I have trouble going elsewhere. My weakness, I guess.

[katsy]

14. Then let's start with the biggest violators...

okay?

Because for every violation you listed, there seems to be many more good deeds. Chavez is accomplishing much on behalf of the poor in Venezuela. So I won't judge him by a few bad deeds or crimes of others. It's worthwhile for Amnesty to continue to try and resolve human rights violations in Venezuela. I have a feeling they'll have better luck there than here in the U.S.

Crimes and human rights violations are a fact of life in every country.

I view some of these listed (like the corruption of the state police) as a crime. Some of these violations will take years to correct if they can ever be resolved.

On the other hand, Abu Graib and gitmo go far beyond mere "crimes".

We don't need to coddle human rights violators. We may, however, want to reward leaders who are, in some respect, improving the lives for the majority of their people.

[hiley]

30. More good indeed, what right do we have to judge human rights

violations now? The US is so fucking guilty!

Hugo Chavez is extremely popular in Venezuela.
From Democracy Now!

They have put small community clinics in almost every single neighborhood throughout Venezuela, and they’ve opened subsidized food markets also that benefit about -- almost half of the Venezuelan population now. So, the impact is definitely being felt of this oil wealth coming to the people, which is something that hasn't happened in Venezuela also since the last oil boom, at least, over 20 years ago. So, that's one of the reasons, of course, that Chavez has become very popular. In addition to the fact, of course, that people feel like he's -- I mean, the poor of Venezuela feel like he's the first president to support them. Which hasn't happened in the -- in actually almost ever. The previous presidents were always presidents of the middle class, essentially.
snip--
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/29/1351254&mode=thread&tid=25

[Child_Of_Isis]

15. Dictator? I thought he was elected.

Or did he steal the election like our dictator?

[TankLV]

117. A "dictator"? Chavez is less a dictator than almost any world leader.

Even bunkerboy fits the description 1000 time better than Hugo.

We have given you proof that he is not a "dictator" why do you insist on calling him that?

If you insist on this, then we will consider the rest of any posts from you as nothing but additional bullshit as this decription of yours is.

[IChing]

163. Or the catholic hiearchy and it's pope

comments?

child abuse anyone? Supporting right wing dictatorships in South and Central America?

Start a new thread please, you're killing me.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

168. Why are you so reluctant to address the Dictator that is currently.....

...illegally squatting in the White House as the result of two elections tabulated by electronic voting machines?

Why is it that the NeoCons seem so ready to point out the faults of other leaders? Is it because they wish to draw attention away from themselves and their illegally gained power?

[Name removed]

170. Deleted message

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[Media_Lies_Daily]

178. "He's not a dictator by any stretch of the imagination"???....

Tell me how you believe Herr Busch came to power?

Tell me how he consolidated his power shortly after 911?

Tell me about the tax cuts to all of his buddies in the top 1%?

If our war was originally against "terrorism", why was it necessary to illegally invade and occupy Afghanistan?

Tell me about the reasons put forth by the NeoCons that were used to illegally invade Iraq?

Not a Dictator? Maybe you don't think so, but there is a growing number of Americans who have no doubts that he is. One of those is my Dad, an 85-year-old WWII vet, who taught history for forty years after the war.

And just FYI...any more personal attacks from you will result in you being asked to leave this board.

[Guy Fawkes]

5. Thank you, for this...

and your thread on Castro.

[CubsFan1982]

44. You're welcome.

We need to stop treating thugs like Castro as kindred spirits, and we need to be more critical about the foreign leaders we hold up as examples.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

179. When do you plan to start treating Herr Busch as the....

...Dictator-thug that he is?

[Spazito]

16. I love it when people point out the mess in their neighbour's yard

while ignoring a bigger mess in their own.

[Rex]

18. Populist warlord

Worst kind to fuck with!

Just look at Latin American history - leaders rise up to represent the people against a large, perceived threat (that would be us).

Chavez does not scare me, he won't do anything to us unless we attack his country.

I'm still ROFL at people calling him a commie. WRONG.

[CubsFan1982]

19. However, he's allied himself with some.

Despite the flattering portrayals to the contrary, Fidel Castro's Cuba and the People's Republic of China are still totalitarian Communist regimes.

[Rex]

21. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Simple political move. America allies itself with whoever is politically advantageous (flavor of the day) in the Middle East. Just look at the Iraq-Iran war.

[CubsFan1982]

23. Chavez and Castro are HARDLY enemies.

I don't know where you get that from.

[Rex]

28. You fail to grasp Sun Tzu's proverb.

Has nothing to do with Castro.

[CubsFan1982]

31. Did he not call Uncle Fidel his "brother"?

Seems I heard him apply that same familial sobriquet to a certain tinpot dictator who used to rule in the Middle East somewhere, whose name escapes me at the moment.

[Crunchy Frog]

135. Did you not call Fidel your "uncle"?

People who live in glass houses and all.:beer:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

94. The point that post #21 is trying to make is that since the U.S. is their

enemy, and Castro is the enemy of their enemy, then alliance with Castro is useful. Hence "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

[Al-CIAda]

25. Who got MFN status w/the US just a day after 9.11?

Who was GW holding hands with a few weeks ago?
Who is 'Bandar Bush'?
Contras?
Sandanistas?
etc., etc...

Please.

[getmeouttahere]

34. And we do business with China...

not to mention that they are essentially propping up our economy. BushCo only cares about democracy if it comes with unlimited helpings of unfettered capitalism/corporatocracy!

[eridani]

73. WalMart LUVS totalitarian China way more than lefties do

China lets their political prisoners make teddy bears for Toys 'R Us et al, and that bad, evil Castro guy doesn't.

[TankLV]

120. And the US allies itself with China.

And the rest of the entire world EXCEPT US allies itself with CUBA.

Cheney and bunkerboy were pals with Saddam for a long profitable time, too.

What's your point?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

171. IMHO, comparing Cuba and China in any way is totally laughable.

[Pastiche423]

24. Who would you rather be governed by?

Hugo Chavez or whistle ass?

[hiley]

32. Hugo Chavez!

anytime

[Maple]

26. Again, not your concern

and people who live in glass houses....

[CubsFan1982]

29. People are being persecuted for their beliefs.

That makes it MY BUSINESS.

[Maple]

46. Sorry, not your concern

Other people are quite capable of making their own decisions without your help.

You don't rule the world.

Concern yourself with your own country. Plenty of people there who need help.

[CubsFan1982]

48. OK, then.

Fuck Darfur. Not my business.

[Maple]

51. No, actually it's not

nor have they asked for your interference.

[CubsFan1982]

53. OK.

If that makes your darling little holier-than-thou heart feel better, go ahead and believe it.

[Maple]

55. You are not God

nor are you the world's policeman.

In fact, the world would be far better off if you stayed home.

There are 191 countries in the world...you are only one of them.

The rest all have adults too ya know.

Let them decide on their own future.

[Brightmore]

89. You live in Canada

America is not your concern. Don't comment on Bush.

Other people are quite capable of making their own decisions without your help.

You don't rule the world.

Concern yourself with your own country. Plenty of people there who need help.

Thank you.

[Maple]

96. America makes itself the world's concern

by interfering in other countries.

Neither Castro nor Chavez have done that.

[Brightmore]

105. Sounds like hypocrisy

Americans are not allowed criticizing foreign nations and their leaders, but you are?

[Maple]

110. I said nothing about

'criticizing'.

It's the 'invading to straighten them out and force our way of life on them whether they want it or not' that the world objects to.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

172. Bingo! Well said!

[eridani]

74. Yes, white people who live behind thick walls topped with broken glass

They're all upset that all the poor brown people are getting some benefits from the oil sales.

[Solon]

87. WHERE?!!?

Those six people were charged with ACCEPTING foriegn funds, a crime even in this nation. If I were to, as an American Citizen, accept funds from North Korea or China to fund a petition drive here to recall so much as a Governor, I get thrown in jail for many years, and that's the United States we're talking about.

[TankLV]

122. Who is being persecuted and how?

Explain.

[scarletwoman]

131. Chevron's being prosecuted, Chavez raised their royalty payments. (n/t)

[TankLV]

149. Thanks - I was wonderin is all!

Love ya scarletwoman!

:yourock:

[vividcolor77]

153. The coupist Venezuelan Anne Coulter is being prosecuted

She signed the document that tried to legitimize the failed coup d'etat against Venezuela. She's guilty under article 132 of the penal code of conspiracy to destroy the republican form of government of Venezuela.
And the original poster wants us to believe that Hugo is mean. Thank God i do research. See her signature at the bottom left.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

174. I bet the NeoCons have a job opening for someone with your beliefs.

[CubsFan1982]

175. I dunno.

I think they may frown on my support of NARAL, NOW, the Human Rights Campaign, etc.

[tkmorris]

35. Have you read your own links?

The incidents you link to don't reflect poorly on Chavez at all. Some of them have nothing whatever to do with Chavez, like the first one which reports on state police corruption and an alleged murder. Six state police were arrested for that murder, That's a bad thing? As to the reported threats to the family and their court ordered protection, that's fairly weak. What constitutes protection in this case? Who is denying them same? And what on earth does any of it have to do with Chavez? You may as well condemn Bush for police corruption in Chicago.

AI also cites the protests for and against Chavez in 2004 as a threat to human rights. Those protests were watched very closely here on DU and most of the violence seems to have been deliberately instigated by anti-Chavez groups, some with direct ties to the United States. Given the massive numbers of people in the streets and the volatile nature of the situation the police acted with remarkable restraint in almost all cases. The few instances where they did not seem to me to be more indicative of the corruption that used to be endemic in Venezuela, and that Chavez is trying to purge.

The only really arguable allegation IMHO is the arrest of the six so called "civil society leaders" for violations relating to the proposed Chavez recall. It does not look good to arrest people whose affirmed desire was to remove Chavez from power but it must be noted that they DID violate Venezuelan law, by their own admission, when they accepted funds from the NED. The US government has a long history of interfering with South American politics, even sponsoring bloody coups in the past (including one to oust Chavez in 2001 if you remember), so the idea that Chavez would be vigilant against US interference in Venezuela is fairly understandable.

Tell me CubsFan. Spell it out for me exactly. What exactly do you think is wrong with Chavez?

[hiley]

36. CubsFan says Chavez is a dictator

:argh: I read the link in the OP and it is bullshit.

[Rex]

40. Pat Robertson thinks Chavez is a dictator.

No grasp of the southern hemisphere IMO.

[hiley]

47. LOL!

none whatsoever.

[CubsFan1982]

43. His seemingly cozy relationship with repressive regimes.

Specifically Cuba and China, not to mention his own anti-American rhetoric. It would be one thing if he were condemning only Bush, but in his public pronouncements, he seems to have a problem against the whole nation. That all gives me pause.

[tkmorris]

59. Cozy relationship with China?

Have you been to a Walmart lately?

Furthermore your statement that he seems to have a problem with the whole United States is just hogwash. In fact he just recently expressed appreciation for all the support people within the US have sent following Robertson's foot-in-mouth routine.

Please, do point me to any comment Chavez has made which denigrates the people of the United States. Not the government, the people. If being critical of the US govt made him a bad guy there's about 60,000 DU'ers who belong in jail right now.

[IChing]

83. "not to mention his own anti-American rhetoric"

definitively the proctologist of logic, justice, truth and the American Way

Please explain "anti-American rhetoric"

[Name removed]

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[HuckleB]

167. Ah, so he's like every lawfully elected national leader in the world.

So it's politicians as a whole that you despise?

Why didn't you start threads like this about the rest of them? I mean it shouldn't be hard to post a bunch of things that have nothing to do with those leaders and call each thread "a critical look at" so and so.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[CubsFan1982]

68. Says who?

Or are you just parroting Chavez talking points?

[scarletwoman]

72. "Says who?" Wow, we're in a real intellectual debate now, aren't we.

You've got nothing, nada. I'm not "parroting Chavez talking points" -- I'm speaking out of several years of actually researching Venezuela, neo-liberalism, and the history of U.S. interference in Latin America.

You haven't presented a single citation for your assertions, your original list of links doesn't support your insistance on making Chavez a bogeyman in the least.

sw

[Name removed]

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[KingFlorez]

37. Venezuela has always had it's problems

The majority of people who don't like Chavez are the upper class.

[H5N1]

39. He is working wonders in that part of the world

That is no easy gig

[CubsFan1982]

45. But at what expense?

I'm not willing to give up my freedom of expression for free health care.

[not systems]

50. Interesting balance free heath care vs freedom of expession...

you may have missed it but free expression has take some
serious hits here in the USA lately.

I know you feel very free in your expression especially since
it mostly consist of mouthing neo-liberal talking points.

The measure of free expression is if the truly unpopular
and oppositional are allowed the right to speak and the
means to do so.

Several grand juries convened on the west coast make it
clear that your freedom of speech is yours only so long as
you choose not to use it.

You should have no problems.

[scarletwoman]

52. Where's your evidence for this lack of freedom of expression?

1.9 million signatures were collected by the OPPOSITION for the recall. Does that sound like repression to you? That 1.9 million citizens were free to petition for a recall?

Do you actually know anything about what's really been going on in Venezuela for the last 5 years, or are the corporate media's distortions and lies all you got? Cuz corporate media lies and distortions are the only thing I've seen from you on this thread.

It's pretty damn pathetic...

sw

[CubsFan1982]

54. I didn't know Amnesty International was part of the "corporate media".

Nowhere did I say that Chavez was a dictator. I said we need to evaluate him more critically than we have been. If he wasn't speaking out against Bush every week, I doubt we at DU would even care about him.

[Lars39]

58. You did in post #7.

Hard to keep it all straight isn't it.

[scarletwoman]

62. And your Amnesty International links are from the 2004 recall period --

when the whole country was simmering over the recall attempt. There are NO stories of mass arrests, no "disappeared", no government crackdowns on dissent in those links -- just warnings that the atmosphere at that time was heated and a plea for both sides to behave. Which they did, by and large -- most violations were committed by the ANTI-Chavez people.

And there's not a single cite on AI of ANYTHING since the 2004 recall referendum -- I looked. Chavez currently has a 70% approval rating from his citizenry.

There's nothing you've posted here that leads me to any other conclusion but that you're talking out of your ass. I've been closely following the situation in Venezuela ever since the U.S.-abetted 2002 coup.

I sat glued to my computer all through the recall election -- which was monitored by the OAS and Jimmy Carter and declared free and fair.

Frankly, I don't think you know sh*t about Chavez and what's going on in Venezuela.

sw

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[scarletwoman]

173. A spade will certainly come in handy for the hole you're digging.

Why should I try to stop you from showing your true colors? Do go on being yourself...

[tkmorris]

60. No one in Venezuela has lost freedom of expression

No one. If Chavez were half the totalitarian people like you make him out to be there would have been no recall referendum. He allowed it to go forward in accordance with the Venezuelan constitution. He also won that referendum easily.

Chavez has done more grant people freedom, true freedom, in Venezuela than any leader in their history.

[The Magistrate]

70. Counter-Revolutionaries, Sir

Cannot seriously expect to operate un-impeeded by a revolutionary government they seek to overthrow....

[jim3775]

56. Canada has human rights violations for god's sakes...

a laundry list of A.I. complaints doesn't prove anything.

[High Plains]

57. What is the sound of one ax grinding?

[FlemingsGhost]

61. A called third strike?

That's when the "fans" usually groan the loudest.

Never mind, they aren't even close to being there behind the plate.

[Spider Jerusalem]

64. Lazy, aren't you?

All these links. Not a word of text, explanation, summary, argument, anything; apparently you couldn't be bothered. And perusal of the links doesn't necessarily indicate anything re: Chavez, but rather shows that there's an ongoing corruption problem in Venezuela among police and the judiciary; seems rather facile to lay the blame at Chavez' feet (especially considering that the government of Venezuela has been unstable and rife with corruption for decades).

And the US has quite the list of human rights abuses, too...mote and beam, I'd say.

[scarletwoman]

65. Not only that, I don't think the OP even read his/her own links!

Read post #35 for a summary at what one can find at those links -- essentially NOTHING to support the OP's assertions!

And calling a twice democratically-elected president -- who also won a recall vote by something like 59% -- a "dictator" (see post #7) is just plain ridiculous.

I call bullshit.

sw

[Rex]

66. I second that bullshit!

nt

[Blue_Tires]

67. omgwtf?!?!? i guess Chavez needs to be 'taken out' right now!!!

n/t

[jonnyblitz]

69. do rignt wing governments concern you are do you only see

boogie men on the left?

[CubsFan1982]

78. If you don't know by now that dictators on all sides concern me...

Then I guess I haven't left much of an impression.

[jonnyblitz]

80. naaa, i just noticed you only brought lefties up BUT

after i posted this comment i read more of your posts in all the threads thus my question is now obsolete. i DO enjoys these threads you started btw, whether i agree with you or not. you may consider them flamey but I believe they are packed with interesting comments. :hi:

[Solon]

86. Question...

Since when do dictators, as you obviously label Chavez, allow protests against their policies? Or allow the media to critisize them, or even allow multiparty/partisan systems, with OPEN transparent voting systems in their nations? In fact, name ONE thing that his government has done that would allow the label of dictator to stick. Are their disappearances, like here with many Arab Americans, including a 16 year old girl? How about imprisonment without trial, Jose Padilla anyone? Give an example of stifling dissent, or ANYTHING that sticks with the label of dictator please.

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[Horse with no Name]

79. Just wondering what crawled up your butt tonight

:shrug:

[CubsFan1982]

81. Not a thing.

But I get kinda concerned at all the blind worship of "leftist" leaders and the verbal fellating of communist thug dictators like the murderous Fidel Castro.

[Solon]

91. CHAVEZ does NOT EQUAL CASTRO!!!!!

Jesus Christ on a cracker, where the FUCK is the equivalency?!?!?!?!? How ignorant do you have to be. Most of the MEDIA in Venezuela is OWNED and RUN by the opposition. That's a dictatorship? Hell I'd prefer that to Bush's so called media and our "democracy".

[CubsFan1982]

95. Clearly you did not read the post.

I said "blind worship" in Chavez's case and "verbal fellating" in Castro's. Does that clarify things for you?

[Solon]

99. I support Chavez for doing what is right for his people...

and apparently doing it without destroying structures of democracy, but building them up instead. You apparently oppose him on economic grounds only, guess what, property rights and civil rights are two very different things, when those with the property suppress those without it.

[jonnyblitz]

98. the documentary "the revolution won't be televised"

explored extensively the media situation you mention. we thought fox news was bad.. :crazy:

[magellan]

111. Most would probably pay little attention to Chavez and Castro

...if the US government would stop demonizing and backing rightist coups against them. These things follow a very orderly pattern: bad dictator, look how bad! (saber rattle, smear); bad dictator gone, the people are "free"! (crickets as massacres and internments are carried out by the new US-friendly regime).

The question most people have yet to ask themselves: what threat does Venezuela pose to the US? (Hint: it's something BushCo won't list among its grievances.)

I suggest people read John Perkins' Confessions of an Economic Hit Man to find out why the US "magnanimously" meddles where it does and not in other places.

And look to Haiti for only the most recent example of what happens when a country that dares to defy US imperial interests is brought to heel by our government.

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[IChing]

106. he has done many threads on these lines that have gotten locked

Just do a google search,




He needs to go after those windmills

[Name removed]

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[Crunchy Frog]

102. Did Chavez pee in your Cheerios or something?

What's up with the obsessive fixations tonight?

[Placebo]

116. Castro & Chavez: Same Shit, Different Piles

'nuff said

[scarletwoman]

121. Bullshit.

'nuff said

[IChing]

123. I agree Hillary is a placebo

nuff said

[CubsFan1982]

124. Finally, someone gets it.

I was wondering when someone would cut through the bullshit in here.

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[Placebo]

132. That's SLANDER!

You're SLANDERING me!

:P

[IChing]

134. gee, you mean there's people left of the DLC?

I did not know that. I must be living in the wrong state.
Thanks jonnyblitz


;) ;) ;)

[beetbox]

126. A critical look at the legacy of colonialism and the slave trade

Start there.

[CubsFan1982]

130. I'll leave that to you.

Seems like that's your specialty. I'll just stick to editorializing against authoritarianism.

[IChing]

139. "I'll just stick to editorializing against authoritarianism."

So when are you gonna post on the Catholic hierarchy and the Pope?

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[Lars39]

143. Check this out:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x3928526

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[Solon]

129. OK, so shit equals "helping the poor"...

and the piles, which differ would be:
Chavez=democratic institutions
Castro=dictatorship

Is this right?

[manic expression]

177. No.....Cuba isn't a dictatorship...

(on edit) but about the helping the poor comment, you're spot on.

[vividcolor77]

133. She's not a civil society leader. She's a coupist

Marina Corina Machado signed the document that tried to legitimize the coup d'etat against Chavez against 2002. Do you call that a civil society leader? you made a big mistake: You did not do your homework.
Look carefully at her signature at the bottom left of the page.

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[1932]

158. What did Amnesty and HRW say when Mexico was going to jail anti-

neoliberal mayor of Mexico City.

(Nothing.)

In the western hemisphere, they have an oversensitivity to some things, and an undersensistivity to others.

Firstly, they say that corporations are outside their remit (convenient since that's where they get their funding) and secondly you rarely seem them criticize the neoliberal government who serve corporations.

[Moderator]

180. Locking.

If we can't have a discussion without personal attacks, what's the point?