All this looting paranoia has a bad smell to me.

[Cleita]

I'm thinking. The newz shows black people running around with stuff. Are they looting? Or, are they trying to save stuff and get it to higher ground? It might even be their stuff. However, the newz, without troubling themselves to find out what is really going on, assumes that the people running around moving things are looting.

I'll bet when this all settles down, a whole different picture will emerge. However, like I said on another post, we have natural disasters in California all the time like earthquakes and fires, yet there is really very little looting going on. I know everyone likes to bring up the LA riots when an underclass of people got really angry, but there was no flooding, earthquakes or natural disaster brush fires involved, just an urban swamp.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. And I don't exactly call it looting when people are taking food either

there's looting and then there's survival.

[Cleita]

2. Exactly NSMA.

These people were left there to die because they were poor.

[Gelliebeans]

3. exactly NSMA

[WillyT]

6. Right On NSMA !!!

:kick:

[Gloria]

49. I agree...better to take it to survive than to let it rot....and with

temperatures in the 90's tomorrow, you can bet most of it would be ruined.

People stranded who didn't have the money or means to escape shouldn't be crucified if they claim food....

[Cleita]

52. Another thing too, if everyone is gone, like the employees

of the store, there really isn't anyone to pay, is there?

[VolcanoJen]

There's survival, and then there's looting....

... looting an electronics store, a jewelry store.

There's a much, much deeper story to be explored when people are robbing grocery stores, but the media, lazy as it is, just calls it "looting," and moves on.

Excellent point NSMA :hug: and provocative topic, Cleita!

[onenote]

187. self-delete

[ScreamingMeemie]

189. Bingo.

Dead on.

[mongo]

269. Sirvival means going to find the red cross or national gaurd

Not looting some food so you can go home to protect your own home from being looted.

[Desertrose]

274. my thoughts exactly! eom

[wli]

4. first LIHOP ethnic cleansing, now MIHOP ethnic cleansing

These genocidal maniacs are far beyond sick.

[Tace]

5. You Can't Steal Something If The Owner Won't Let You

Let's say you take my TV. Cops come. I say I gave it to you. Guess what? You didn't steal it.

[VADem11]

7. Moving stuff?

I would think if it was their stuff they wouldn't be breaking in. If people are smashing windows of stores or breaking in through the side ramp of a winn dixie and taking cartloads of products then yes it is looting. Taking some food would be the only justifiable thing.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

8. If i had no money, no home and no way out I would steal too

it's called survival. I don't think the people WORST effected by this disaster should be considered criminal just yet. Criminal is funding churches so they can get their congregation rides out of town while the rest of the community fumbles.

[Cleita]

9. So in the middle of 125 mile winds and water they casually

did that and loaded all this stuff up? Really!

[VADem11]

11. Look at the video

Try WDSU. It was after the storm passed.

[Cleita]

17. How do you know these people weren't Winn Dixie employees

trying to salvage stuff? The video means nothing out of context and with our "librul" media these days just blathering anything. You know they double check and triple check their facts before they report. Hahahaha.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

185. that may be the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard

employees? breaking windows? taking only what they can carry? i cannot even believe you would try to suggest that.

i believe they probably needed a lot of the stuff that was taken for survival...and it was going to waste anyway so no harm, no foul, but trying to cover it up by suggesting that they are employees? give me a break...

subjectProdigal

[Cleita]

239. What I'm suggesting is that you can't pass judgement until

you have the facts, no matter what your eyes tell you through the camera lens of another's eyes. All those goods would be considered damaged goods and the law requires you to dump them even if they look like they might be perfectly good. So Winn Dixie is not going to suffer any great losses. And how do you know it wasn't employees who were told to break windows by management so people can get at stuff? You just don't know.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

276. your assertion is still assinine... n/t

[Tace]

10. Only They're Going To Hand Out A No-Bid Contract To "Clean Up"...

the entire region.

So we take bulldozers and shovel all the stuff into a big landfill. At least no criminals stole the stuff.

[Cleita]

12. Tace.

That's what will happen because all that stuff is damaged goods and has to be thrown away. The stores recover their losses from insurance and the government.

[Tace]

14. That's My Point, Of Course

We criminalize people just because we're looking for scapegoats.

[knitter4democracy]

216. Won't the stores count it as an insurance write-off anyway?

They can't sell it if it's been in that toxic soup or been compromised in any way. Those stores have paid through the nose for insurance, and they're going to write off all or most of the inventory, I'm sure. They do in fires, even just for smoke damage, as people won't buy anything that smells or looks funny. They'll get their money for it, so why can't someone have it who really needs it and is willing to look past the smell or the look of the product?

I'm trying to open up a yarn shop, and if it were open and something like that happened, I'd have to write it all off as a total loss. Water damaged books, pattern pamphlets, wooden needles, and yarn won't sell, so if someone broke in and took them, it'd be fine with me--heck, I'd offer them a job to come back and help clean up after all the water's gone.

I helped with the flood clean up in 1993 in St. Louis, and I can tell you that the water is foul, foul, foul. Those stores won't be selling anything that was in it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

13. *THIS* is looting

obviously it's an old pic but you get my point

[tk2kewl]

24. that is a freaking bargain

just wait 'til tomorrow

[Cleita]

25. I was thinking the same thing.

My last fill up for the cheapest gas in the cheapest gas station in town was $2.80 a gal.

[tk2kewl]

26. 2.65 for me on sunday

[TahitiNut]

15. Let me know when they come close to 1/100th of what the Bushoilini Cabal

... has looted from Iraq, Afghanistan, and the US. :shrug:

[Cleita]

19. My point exactly.

The real thieves are runnin our country.

[earth mom]

59. You know it! But they will frame these people in NO as criminals

so they will be justified when they take their time helping them IF and that's a BIG IF they help them at all! :grr:

[DBoon]

23. Reminds me of a Doonesbury cartoon about the LA Riots

National guardsman looks at a hallowed out shell of a building and asks, "Why aren't we defending that?"

His superior says, "Don't worry, that building was a savings and loan. It was looted years ago."

[tjdee]

16. This feeds freeper psychosis: The crazy black people! They're thieves!

Better load my gun! ARGH!

:puke:

[sundog]

20. ding ding ding... those horrible scary black people

:eyes:

[Tace]

28. I'm A White Guy, While A Lady, Who Happens To Be Black...

looks after my kids while I work. She's the most honest person I know.

She has my complete trust.

This scary-blacks-looting-stuff rubs me seriously the wrong way.

[Cleita]

29. Hey Tace

I worked at UCLA in the university post office for a couple of years. Most of that department was African American. Most of them lived in South Central LA and had to commute to very white Westwood, but really couldn't live there. They were hard working, honest and trustworthy people, who wanted what everyone wants, an opportunity to make a decent living and raise their families.

I really hate racism. I'm not saying there aren't bad people anywhere, but most of them aren't

[the_spectator]

18. New Orleans isn't California. It's its own unique self:

"we have natural disasters in California all the time like earthquakes and fires, yet there is really very little looting going on." --

New Orleans is its own special place. It's the Third World in the U.S.A. It has an astoundingly high murder rate: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/new_orleans_murders
The NO murder rate is ten times the average rate in the U.S. As the link states, "those numbers dwarf murder rates in Washington, Detroit, Baltimore, Atlanta, Chicago, Los Angeles and New York City." Why don't you know this? Because NO is a city of just UNDER 500,000 people - and 500,000 is the arbitrary population cut-off to count as a "major city" and to show up on the comparative statistics in a little box graphic in your daily USAToday or New York Times.

It's hard to sleep (if you want to) in NO on New Year's Eve. Not so much just because of the parties and the fireworks. Rather because the night air is torn unceasingly by the rat-a-tat of guns going off, revellers shooting bullets into the air as if they were all Saddam Hussein or something.

Just saying, don't assume it ISN'T looting!

[Cleita]

21. I think it's being run by white men who don't run it very well.

How could any city not have a plan to rescue all their citizens in the face of disaster? Mostly, what was left behind were poor black people, elderly and handicapped people. These people were left behind as disposable people to drown because our government and their city officials didn't really care.

[the_spectator]

27. Well you may be right --

but NO is a heavily Democratic city, and I know that at least the last two mayors have been African-American, for whatever that's worth.

It is true that there is an old, established, French creole and Garden District WASP elite that has run a lot there for decades and decades.

But I think it really is its own place also. It is a place that lives with the possibility of sudden doom hanging over it, but chooses to ignore it. It has a fatalistic "what will be will be" attitude that dominates everything. Even home-owners (stolid, sensible people, as home-owners tend to be) in New Orleans all know that their houses are sinking inexorably into the suspended sand that New Orleans (and all swamps) essentially are -- they are just prudent enough, when they buy a new house, to discover beforehand how strong and how sturdy are the concrete posts driven into the ground that the house rests on. The best of such defenses can't stop the sinking. Just slow it down some.

[Chico Man]

37. Was the Superdome full?

Just wondering. I think they spent the vast majority of Sunday warning and bussing the poor to the Superdome. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Cleita]

45. Really, isn't that nice.

Let's put the trash all in one place, so if they drown, it won't be that hard to clean up. So nice of them.

[Chico Man]

51. Was the superdome designed to withstand this type of storm?

Did it keep the people safe? I think that is a pretty impressive feat, actually. What else were they supposed to do? Teleport the people out? Land a mega space ship? Who are you to judge?

[Cleita]

54. If our national guard was involved in operation make Bush

richer in Iraq, there could have been an organized evacuation of New Orleans for EVERYONE.

[Chico Man]

58. What's that they say about hindsight

Forgive me for my ignorance, but I have a feeling that a total evacuation of a city as large and diverse as New Orleans is a fairly complex undertaking no matter how many resources you are given.

We're not talking about moving freight from point A to point B, we're talking about moving people.. emotional, scared people with family, children, pets, property, and emotions.

The superdome was the best choice given the situation. There is no perfect solution to this complex problem.

[Cleita]

65. New Orleans really isn't that large as cities go.

All cities need a plan for probable disasters that include all residents, not just the ones with money. Well, it's just my socialist feelings. We need to take care of each other.

[Chico Man]

69. Were there any deaths in the superdome

Just wondering. Sure it wasn't the Hyatt..

[Cleita]

74. I don't know.

My local new had something about car wrecks on the freeway. It's the only news I watch. Tomorrow morning I will read everything I can google on the internet. But right now, it's all tabloid sensationalism.

[TheWraith]

177. The Superdome is rated for winds up to 200 MPH

I don't believe they ever did an engineering test for 160 MPH winds plus X inches of rain, but the thing has all the delicacy of a giant rock, and seems to have come through quite well. Now the question is whether Lake Ponchartrain is going to turn 80% of New Orleans into New Atlantis.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

Mayor Nagin is white?

I must have been watching the wrong channel the last few days.

[Cleita]

85. Ha, ha. You know what I am saying.

Don't tell me minorites have taken over and are really in charge down there.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

223. Uh huh.....

....so are you trying to imply the guy is a "token" or a "puppet"?

[enid602]

120. NO

New Orleans city also has a poverty rate of over 80%, compared with about 15% for both NYC and LA.

[bpilgrim]

22. M$MWs old stand by - DISTRACT from their FAILURES

by shinning a spotlight on someone else, especially poor people cause NO ONE will stand up for them and it makes everyone else feel superior and they need those ratings damn-it!

:puke:

peace

[TomInTib]

30. Looting = taking stuff that isn't yours...don't politicize it....

it is what it is. Don't romanticize this shit...otherwise it is opportunism, a mini-Halliburton.

Taking food because you haven't eaten in days...understandable...taking GAP clothes and televisions...hmmmm...a little harder to understand...and forgive.

[Cleita]

31. So I didn't see any of what you are speaking of.

Mostly, I saw people wading around in water, no TV's or clothing that couldn't have been theirs.

[VADem11]

36. There are reports

of evacuees being told from security companies that people are breaking into their homes. Witnesses say there is looting across the city. Some may be doing it for food but there are plenty of opportunists.

[Cleita]

41. Yes, but until the reports are put up, you are assuming .n/t

[VADem11]

48. There is coverage from

the ABC station in Houston. Check the video section. I am not just assuming that looters are breaking into people's houses.
www.abc13.com

[Cleita]

56. Oh on our telly?

Forget it. I will make up my mind when reputable journalism sources weigh in, like in Canada or print media like "The Nation".

[bpilgrim]

60. wise move - we'll knew before the M$MWs here

thats fer sure.

Thank GORE he 'invented' the INTERNETs :bounce:

:hi:

peace

[VADem11]

64. Keep in mind

that this is not the national network, it is an affiliate station. They are usually more reliable than the MSM.

[the_spectator]

53. That's a very articulate and lawyerly double-negative there -

"...I saw people wading around in water, no TV's or clothing that couldn't have been theirs." --

And on a certain level, you're absolutely right. No matter how many people one might have seen wading through the flood-waters with TVs in their arms, there was always at least SOME chance, however remote, that each particular individual had not looted the TV, but instead was making an attempt to transfer his or her own personal, pre-Katrina TV to higher or safter ground.

That argument could work for any one of those particular TV-carriers, if they were on trial for theft, and you were trying to get a "not-guilty" verdict -- after all, the prosecution has to prove "BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT" before they can convict - make them PROVE that that TV wasn't theirs!

....

But please, trying to argue that, in fact, we saw no looting today -- it was all just innocent residents transfering their valued household moveables -- to each other's homes, perhaps? That's all we saw. Yeah, that's the ticket!

[Cleita]

63. I wasn't arguing that at all. What I was arguing was that

everyone is jumping on this because of what CNN or FOX etc. said because of the video they saw, which doesn't have very much credibility because CNN, FOX etc. have none, and are know to scream a lot of hyperbole. I was arguing against their unsubstantiated claims that many seem to think are etched in stone. I know video may look like something, but until you find out who was involved and who really said what, it's just BS.

So they showed some alleged looting at a supermarket, but no one seems to care that a lot of people died and there was a lot of tragedy. Incidentally, I only used the image of the guy carrying the TV as an example. I never saw it in this instance.

[Violet_Crumble]

169. I'm in Australia and it was on the news here...

It was reported in this order:

A lot of people died (this took up most of the report)
There's been some looting (this was like a p.s. at the end)

I'm not getting it. What is so surprising about the idea that after a major natural disaster that both the best and worst comes out in people, and there would be some looting? I've been through a major natural disaster here that destroyed several suburbs, and even though all that was left of my brother in law's home after the fire went through was a cheap plastic outdoor table and chairs, someone came along a few days later and stole them, along with what was left of the letterbox. Petty stuff, but really pathetic when you stop and think that he'd lost everything. There were also quite well off folk turning up to evacuation centres to try to score stuff that people had donated to help the victims. And a guy who thought it'd be exciting to start another bushfire only a few days after it happened. That's only a small handful of people, though, and all cities have them. Denying they exist and that they do those sorts of things seems a bit weird to me, that's all...

Violet...

[Cleita]

176. Our media is making a big to do about the looting.

The real tragedy is that our government, under the leadership of George W. Bush, has fallen short of being able to meet these disasters efficiently. Our esteemed Prezidunce is speaking at fundraisers these last two days instead, and seems to be oblivious of the fact that there is a real disaster happening, people are dying, property is being destroyed and about 100,000 poor people, elderly and handicapped have left behind to weather the storm anyway they can.

[Violet_Crumble]

178. Okay, I get it now...

I've always thought the US media gets its priorities totally arse-about, anyway. My bet is Bushy will suddenly appear looking for photo ops, hugging some people who've lost their homes and grimly making a clumsy parallel between the natural disaster and terrorism..at least that's what our PM did...

Violet...

[bpilgrim]

38. "a mini-Halliburton" - GET'em!

http://media.globalfreepress.com

peace

[earth mom]

67. You want to talk Halliburton?Why don't you go after the REAL criminals?

You know-the ones who spent billions-or is that trillions-of the American peoples money on a LIE in Iraq and then we'll talk about misdemeanors vs felonies! :grr:

[Cleita]

97. Yay, hay, I'm with you.

These are the real thieves. Stop worrying about the paltry criminals.

[earth mom]

117. I was replying to Tom....and

I'm with you too-thanks for the thread it was much needed! :)

[Chico Man]

32. They were wheeling shopping carts out of the back door of WinDixie..

If it looks like looting and smells like looting...

[Cleita]

33. And your proof?

If they are guilty, I'm sure Winn Dixie will prosecute.

[Chico Man]

34. Uh huh

And raise their prices too.

[Cleita]

40. If there is video and they really looted, they will be prosecuted.

Do you think the Empire really lets plebs get away with shit? They will be well reimbursed by the company (our government) and their insurance. But being they can't let things go unless they really feel guilty, they will prosecute because that is what corporations do. Money is all. Flesh is nothing.

[Chico Man]

42. There were dozens of people

The video will never lead to anything as how could they identify the people using the video.

After the tsunami in SE Asia, girls were raped. To think that there are not opportunists of every color and creed that are just waiting for an opportunity is sticking your head in the sand.

[Spangle]

43. Win-dixie? The FOOD place?

Please tell me all this hype is about more then looting a food chain. Other wise, all this bickering amoung us about looting is crazy!

[Chico Man]

47. We'll see where it leads to

Starts with food, and once the lawless attitude takes over, the shit is going to hit the fan.

[bpilgrim]

35. "Looters will be treated RUTHLESSLY" - NO HOMELAND inSECURITY

did y'all hear this official from NO... (MP3)
http://news.globalfreepress.com/mp3/katrina/looting_will_be_treated_ruthlessly.mp3

where are these wackos priorities the fucking storm ain't even over yet :puke:

peace

[tjdee]

39. Bush followers all the way.

Shoot first, ask later. The fake wild west movie swagger....tough words...aww yeah, that's a Bush guy right there.

:eyes:

[Conservativesux]

162. The HS/LE gestapo are practicing for the day * declares martial law.

Its only a matter of time. :(

[Judi Lynn]

172. That's probably scheduled for around the time people are expecting

him to leave the White House after a real President has been elected (that is, IF the Diebold machines don't automatically choose another MEpublican).

[Gloria]

44. Haley Barbour out there with the hammer....

sort of ironic, crook that he is...

[Cats Against Frist]

46. It stinks to high heaven

I was a little ruffled over the "horrified" attitudes of the newspeople, in the voice-over, while the "lootings" were being shown. I did a little "what the fuck?" And all I saw were some people fiving toilet paper and Power Aid. Hardly a fucking catastrophe. I think there was probably a lot of psychology going on, in that room, because there were like the four white reporters, and the one black anchor -- and he was the one going on about it, the most, ad nauseum, it seemed. It was obvious that it was showing black people doing the "looting." "Gotta play it straight, when you come up to the massa's house" -- know what I'm sayin'?

[Qibing Zero]

50. Yes, let's put this in perspective here

No one knew the fate of New Orleans. A few hours difference in strength and a few miles difference in direction and there could be nothing but water covering the city. If I had lived there and was able to evacuate, I would assume the worst for my home and belongings, even now. I would doubt anything in my home was usable, and would just be glad I had gotten out with my life. Who can say when people will be able to return? For those who had to live through it all, they could have my water soaked furnature and my soon to be spoiled food if they really wanted it. =P

I think it's fair to say that only a couple kinds of people stayed - ones too poor to leave and ones who were gungho enough to think they could survive it and were willing to take the risk. If public transportation out of the city and to a shelter elsewhere was available to those poor folks who had to stay in the dome, I'm sure the vast majority would have accepted it. Who are we to say whether or not these people looting actually have food? Yes, I will justify stealing food/water from a supermarket wherein no one may even come back to weeks, for survival reasons - every time. For people who are looting anything and everything they can find of value, it is indeed a sad circumstance. While you can't justify that kind of stealing, you can certainly feel empathy for those who would have to resort to such measures.

Just remember, this world is not the black and white world some would have you believe. It disturbs me when I see remarks about how looters are all beyond reproach, as if they were no longer people. That's the kind of scary stuff that causes people to believe that America is fighting the crusades duex over in the middle east. Despite the fact we have laws set in stone, we really have to realize what place the laws actually have beside just being 'law'. Order should never be obeyed blindly, and there are going to be exceptions in a lot of cases that we don't always see at first. I mean, could you arrest the poor woman stealing bread from a market? What about the man speeding to the hospital while his wife is in labor? Would you condemn the man who, in defense of his family, fought off and killed an attacker?

Is it wrong to look for the real cause in these situations? I will grieve a lot more for the lack of education and poor living conditions that bring about this behavior in people, than I will for the owners of the chain grocery store who lost a few dollars in revenue.

[bpilgrim]

55. welcome to DU

but 'looters' get the benefit of the doubt, for now, considering their HORRIFIC and DIRE circumstances, the M$MWs incompetence, and our Homeland Security Ruthlessness.

listen to this NO HS Official on mp3
http://news.globalfreepress.com/mp3/katrina/looting_will_be_treated_ruthlessly.mp3

:hi:

peace

[Qibing Zero]

57. Thanks :)

That quote is beyond harsh - ouch. You really have to wonder when they're actually saying things like 'as agressive as the law allows'.

[bpilgrim]

61. no worries

and if you are a person with color, it's a death sentence, waaaay too often :cry:

peace

[Chico Man]

62. I just don't see how the looting is not going to exponentially increase

In terms of severity.....

I have a really bad feeling about that. We saw what happened after the tsunami.. the kidnappings, rapings.... once lawlessness sets in, all hell is going to break loose. And it will all begin with the innocent theft of food goods...

[bpilgrim]

66. it's called SURVIVAL

and the M$MWs will only focus on the underbelly of society to jack ratings and distract, just like during the tsunami :puke:

peace

[Chico Man]

72. If they were that concerned about survival they would taken the bus to

The superdome.

I don't recall that focus during the tsunami... I do remember the focus on cleanup, and donations, and fundraising... I thought that too was quite impressive given the circumstances...

There is also an individual interpretation of you see on the media.. it's almost as if people around here WANT to see the racism and rating gouging from the media, so they can point fingers somewhere.. and leverage the tradgedy in some political way. Thats pretty sad I think.

[bpilgrim]

82. the buses shut down early

"I don't recall that focus during the tsunami..."

well, you brought it up and a lot of it was tabloid and western focused.

search the archives here you'll see.

"it's almost as if people around here WANT to see the racism and rating gouging from the media"

yeah, if only we didn't bring it up it wouldn't be so bad :eyes:

some can't handle the truth, yet insist on hanging on DU, the most informed public US forum on the INTERNETs :shrug:

peace

[Chico Man]

90. Ok I'll just agree with you

And leave it at that.

:eyes:

[Qibing Zero]

87. I find it hard to believe that even with their best efforts...

..they could have actually alerted everyone in the city about the buses, not to mention actually have buses in capacity go to every area of the city.

[Chico Man]

92. Of course not

That would be a very unrealistic goal..

We'd all have to have mandatory television viewing times or embedded chips in our brains or something.

[bpilgrim]

98. how revealing

you ain't got a clue and don't care who knows it apparently.

who is chico gonna lash out at next :shrug:

http://media.globalfreepress.com

peace

[Chico Man]

102. Who am I lashing out at.

Please let me know.

[bpilgrim]

108. the looters to begin with

and DU'ers who disagree with your black & white, world view

peace

[Chico Man]

113. What is black and white about my view

I disagree with looting, and you agree. We are debating that.

We are not debating who's view is more "black and white" (whatever that is supposed to mean, or connotate).

Actually, it almost looks like you are resorting to personal attacks.

[Qibing Zero]

121. You just answered your own question

By saying 'I disagree with looting, and you agree.' you put the entire discussion in a black and white context. Some of us empathize and think that looting is morally justified in a survival situation, but in no way did we ever say it's alright in any situation.

[Violet_Crumble]

173. New Orleans doesn't have an emergency warning system?

I find that a bit hard to believe. Over here they did a variety of things with only less than an hours notice, including that warning siren announcement thing breaking into every tv channel and radio broadcast. There were also cops out and about that stopped at the end of streets with sirens going, and there was also some tell-tale hints that things were going really bad if those who didn't watch tv or radio, or didn't have neigbhours or family to warn them looked out their windows and noticed the reddish glow and smoke. Granted, this was in a city around half the size of New Orleans, and our entire city wasn't in danger, only about half of it, but unlike us, people in New Orleans had a lot more than an hours warning about what was coming...

Violet...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

75. Oh give me a break...as emergency personel and security fill the gaps

it will improve. There was little to NO presence of either today due to conditions. This was not a reality tv survival game today. This was real and people were scared. Might there have been a few ill intentioned opportunists? Sure. But more likely than not there were people who survived a freight train mowing them down who knew there were no restautants open, no stores and no clean water.



For the record, after the Northridge quakes, the biggest offenders of looting property were emergency personnel and Cal Trans and they were caught on film.

[Chico Man]

79. Emergency personel and security will have to focus on crime prevention

Rather than life saving. I don't know about you, but I'd much rather have the focus be on saving lives... not protecting corporate interests.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

81. Then that's what they should do. People feeding themselves

is not a crime

[Chico Man]

86. Last time I checked, breaking and entering and theft was a crime

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

89. well good..why don't you run out there and place them under citizen's

arrest?

[Chico Man]

94. Well I'm not going to defend them

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

95. Well I am...it's much drier that way

Easy for you to sit and judge from your armchair now, isn't it?

[Chico Man]

105. Like I said, it only takes a little bit of critical thinking to see where

Innocent looting can lead with respect to the recovery effort New Orleans faces.

It is easy for me to associate looting with a more complicated recovery for the city.

I see that you cannot fathom this association, and I respect you for that.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

106. And I'd like to acknowledge you for your compassion.

Really, I would :eyes:

[Chico Man]

115. Another personal attack?

We are debating the plusses and minuses of looting post natural disaster. Not my level of compassion, nor your ability to acknowledge me for my compassion.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

118. What personal attack? You claim I have no critical thinking skills

while you was philosophical about the harms to society by people taking pampers and groceries from a store when there is little to NO emergency assistance in place at the moment!

[Chico Man]

123. Were not talking about looting pampers and groceries

We're talking about looting in general. You can try to frame the debate around the humanitarian benefits of looting post natural disaster, but I'm still not buying it.

Cameramen were on the streets filming it. People were on the streets looting it. Tell me they never once saw an offical that could have helped them find what they needed.

I'd agree with you if NO abandoned it's citizenry for a few days or a week. No humanitarian supplies. No rescues. No shelters. No food. Then, I'd say fuck the Govt it's survival mode. But we havn't reached that point yet, and I highly doubt we are going to get there.

[Cleita]

126. Well you might as well say that now. F the government

because we don't have one that gives a GD about its citizens.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

128. You aren't there. You really can't speak for those people

the main looting I saw was groceries at Winn Dixie..beyond that there was no real wide spread looting and NO..you cannot frame the terms of this debate to looting in general...no one was saying LOOTING IN GENERAL is a good thing...people were saying they did not consider taking groceries and essentials as stealing in an emergency and a disaster. PERIOD!

[Chico Man]

130. Likewise..

You aren't there either. This is just a debate..

We have no idea what was being stolen. I saw the videos. I didn't see pampers and groceries. I saw people running quickly out of the back of the store pushing carts full of stuff. That's all we have to go on.

Thank you and good night.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

134. Except I can use my critical thinking skills to know that even if

some petty theft occurred...they weren't going to Winn Dixie to steal vcrs and new ferraris...If I see a grocery cart..I make the logical JUMP that groceries were in it coming from a grocery store...and if I hear the sound of hooves outside my window...I make the logical jump that it is horses not unicorns. Funny that critical thinking and all.

[Chico Man]

136. You know there is a pharmacy at WinnDixie too

I know where I'd go..

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

139. Yeah...and...conjecture and 50 cents will get you a crappy cup of coffee

I find it interesting that you would automatically assume the WORST of people in such a disaster situation...when (if I haven't repeated it enough times) they have NO FOOD...no water...their homes are flooded and no means of travelling elsewhere

[Chico Man]

143. Any they decided to ingore the plea of the city and stay at home

I'm sorry, but NO is not known to be the kindest, safest, and crime free city in the world.

[Cleita]

153. You really are too much.

How dare you talk that way about a place many DUers call home and some of the best DUers incidentally.

[Chico Man]

160. Talk what way

What are you talking about

[bpilgrim]

144. yeah, they are gonna stash all the looted VCRs in their flooded basements

:eyes:

peace

[Chico Man]

146. VCRs.. no. Oxycontin, yes.

[Cleita]

156. You sound like Rush Limbaugh's contact guy.

[Chico Man]

158. Haha

Not really that funny.

[Violet_Crumble]

175. If they have no means of travelling elsewhere...

..then how do they find the means to travel to a store?

Violet...

[Cleita]

145. Oh you would steal drugs?

Shocking.

[Chico Man]

147. Yeah, I sure would.

LOL

I'm sorry, did the thought not cross your mind? Are there no drug users in New Orleans?

[Cleita]

154. I wouldn't know. But evidently you seem to be all

informed about this.

[Chico Man]

157. Well, if you cared to inform yourself

http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=New+Orleans&state=LA

[Cleita]

166. No my interests like in what good things people do. Sorry.n/t

[Chico Man]

170. A good thing would be to understand the repercussions of looting

And therefore seek other methods of aid, particularly so soon after the disaster struck.

[bpilgrim]

174. or the repercussions of a natural DISASTER and get their priorities right

and focus on survival

peace

[Chico Man]

224. Stealing beer and cigarettes is survival?

His 25-year-old brother, Jacob Merritt, said the roof was ripped apart in his apartment complex in Biloxi. He sat in a cinder block Tuesday in the rubble of a beach-front hotel, Star Inn, and clasped his head in his hands. He said he had pulled out 12 people from a building during the hurricane, and he believes they all lived but had minor injuries.
After the storm, "there was a lot of looting going on," Jacob Merritt said. He said he saw people stealing beer and cigarettes from the Circle K convenience store.

http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050830/NEWS0110/50830009/1002/NEWS01

Authorities are focusing on getting water, ice, and ready to eat meals to those that need it...

The US Government was mobilising thousands of truckloads of recovery supplies: ice, water, food, temporary shelters and electricity generators. Thirty-eight search-and-rescue and medical teams were waiting for the storm to subside so they could enter the damaged areas.

The American Red Cross said it had launched its "largest mobilisation effort in history" to cope with Katrina.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16442485%255E2703,00.html

So there you go.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

251. Beer is actually one of the safest sources of liquid in a case like that

Goodness, when I spent five weeks in China, where the tap water is not safe to drink, I drank tea for breakfast, beer for lunch and dinner, and an occasional unrefrigerated Coke or orange pop in between.

The only person in our group who had digestive problems was the only teetotaler. I credit the beer for saving my digestive system on that trip.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

250. Maybe they needed things from the pharmacy

Have you ever considered that?

If I were in a flood, with iffy water and food supplies, I'd sure want some basic medications on hand.

[ultraist]

211. "Associate looting with a more complicated recovery for the city"

Are you referring to the pResident's looting of the hurricane and flood disaster funding?

Yes, his looting of those programs is certainly going to cause much hardship for those affected by the hurricane.

[Chico Man]

222. No, I'm not

I really could care less about the president or somehow connecting him to the disaster at the moment.

[Ms. Clio]

236. "It will all begin with the innocent theft of food goods"

That's really doubtful. Someone who is going to rape during a disaster will rape whenever the opportunity presents itself. And someone who takes 5 gallons of water and some food and batteries or other necessities during a disaster will probably never "steal" another thing as long as they live.

[Chico Man]

238. The opportunity presents itself when lawlessness gets out of hand

And lawlessness begins with petty theft...

Looting makes matters much worse.

The American Red Cross is on the scene.. performing the largest recovery effort in the history of the USA.

[Ms. Clio]

242. "Lawlessness begins with petty theft"

That's simply not true--people commit violent crimes all the time who have never stolen anything at all.

Criminologists would not agree with you.

[Chico Man]

243. I'm not saying the same person

One person commits petty theft... the next a more serious crime.. and it cascades in this way.

One thing the officals of NO want to prevent is at atmosphere of lawlessness and chaos. I respect the Mississippi offical who threatened severe punishment for looting. He is only trying to prevent things from getting completely out of control.

The easier it is for the Red Cross and other supporting agencies to get into the hardest hit areas with aid, the faster the recovery and the less chance of loss of life. Looting will only complicate matters for these agencies.

Let them do their job. Looting is not the way to get aid. Get the aid from the agencies we support for these situations.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

71. Big amen to that and welcome

[VolcanoJen]

76. Welcome to DU!!!

:hug: :toast: :toast: :hug:

[Cleita]

77. Yes, welcome to DU

and you are so right in what you say.

[Chico Man]

68. Changes stiffen price-gouging, looting laws

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/news/2005-08-11-louisiana-looting_x.htm

Also, looting during states of emergency starts carrying heavier penalties on Monday: a three-year minimum prison sentence and up to 15 years. Backers of that bill said fear of being looted was a hindrance to getting storm-threatened residents to evacuate.

In 2003, in Lake Charles, three brothers were each sentenced to two years in prison for breaking into two pharmacies during the threat of Hurricane Lili in October 2002.

[Cleita]

70. Well, most people in prisons are minorities.

It's not that they commit more crimes but that they will be punished for it more that rich white guys. Sorry, but it's the truth Mr. Law Enforcement. I really don't consider looting on the same level as murder and assassination, something that happens rather regularly, but no law enforcement seems to want to investigate it when it's in high places.

[Chico Man]

78. It's the snowball effect

Once you throw the rule of law out the window, murder and assassination will soon follow. I would have liked to see the people rise above that. Plenty of options were given to the people. NO is not going to let it's citizenry starve. They may not feel like they are at the Hyatt, but aid is going to pour in by the boatloads in a scale similar to the tsunami. Looting of food is going to lead to other more serious crimes and it is going to complicate the effort of recovery. That is what you are advocating: complications and delaying the recovery of the city of NO.

[Cleita]

80. "Looting of food is going to lead

to other more serious crimes and it is going to complicate the effort of recovery."

Really read your statement. I don't even want to say what I think.

[Chico Man]

83. I'm sorry I cannot advocate theft of food given the option the city

Put on the table all day on Sunday.

The city is not going to let its people starve! Aid will be pouring in starting at daybreak tomorrow. And continuous looting is just going to divert personnel from life saving to law enforcement.

[Judi Lynn]

84. Why should someone make sense?

That's so limiting!



It's better if they just expound endlessly!

[Chico Man]

88. Why should we stop people from stealing?

I mean... duuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

[Cleita]

91. You're talking about salt water soaked food that's going to

have to be thrown out anyway, not gold or diamonds.

[Chico Man]

96. I could give a rats a$$ about the food

It is the recovery effort I'm worried about and the complications that looting will introduce, no matter how innocent the motives.

[Cleita]

99. What complications?

Explain what you mean by complications?

[Chico Man]

110. Diversion of emergency personnel

Instead of focusing on saving lives, they have to focus on crime prevention.

The people have a fairly large role in the success of the recovery, and therefore have a large responsibility to do the right thing.

[Cleita]

114. Perhaps saving lives would involve getting the

so-called looters to shelters so they don't have to loot.
Does that sound like a plan?

[Chico Man]

119. I do believe that was the plan put into action

I'd be the first to admit that any large scale human effort like the one we saw yesterday would never be perfect.

[Cleita]

122. No it would have to be run by women to make it run well and

very close to perfect.

[bpilgrim]

100. OBVIOUSLY

though hungry people in the midst of this disaster might.

think about it

peace

[Chico Man]

107. It's been 24 hours.

Nobody is starving to death. I might add, particularly those that are in the superdome.

[bpilgrim]

109. The disaster is on-going

hello...

peace

[Chico Man]

116. The disater is ongoing..

So, looting is OK. Not too sure I follow that one.

[bpilgrim]

125. nk

peace

[ultraist]

212. Who gives a fuck about a few water logged tvs!

Is petty theft really the problem?

Or are systemic forms of oppression and legalized theft by politicians the real issue here?

What is the root cause of those stealing basic items because they cannot afford them?

[Ms. Clio]

237. Marijuana is a gateway drug, too

One joint and you will inevitably end up high on LSD, walking off a building because you think you can fly.



:shrug:

[Chico Man]

246. I remember some analogy

Apples to oranges or something like that. What does marijuana smoking have to do with looting post natural disaster?

Plus, smoking marijuana does not neccecarily make other people think it's ok to smoke marijuana, or take lsd. Unfortunately, we are dealing with a post disaster situation that could easily get out of control. Given the massive relief effort already underway from agencies designed to handle the situation, I do not realize how looting would ever help the situation.

It's alsomst as if people are cheering looting just for the sake of bringing down the corporate machine. There are many posts in this threading backing this assumption. Truthfully, is this really the time and place to gripe about the corporate behemoth and try to solve that problem?

One step at a time.. lets concentrate on the relief agencies and lets help them do their job.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

93. No plenty of options were not given

Traffic was jammed out of town. The price of gas was prohibitive and the lines to get into the done were hours long.

People taking some food will not complicate the delay.

But here's some advice. In the event of a disaster where YOU live make sure you have a backpack packed with a week of food and a few gallons of water so you can set a good example for all the other poor stiffs.

[Chico Man]

101. I don't think a traffic jam was that unusual

Given the fact that a CAT 5 hurricane was about ready to hit the city.

If my mayor were to tell me to get the hell out of dodge and I had the means to do that, I would. I would have also understood that there would probalby be significant hurdles given the geography and highway systems of the area..

If my mayor told me that my second best option was to hunker down at the local giant behemoth of a concrete building, I'd have to trust him.

Finally, if the officals make a very strong point about the dangers of looting, I'd have to trust they have a pretty good reason to want to prevent that.

It only takes a tad bit of critical thinking to see wheee innocent looting could end up given the situation... I mean, seriously!!!!

[bpilgrim]

104. it all makes perfect sense, now

http://media.globalfreepress.com

peace

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

112. Yes..everything you assert assumes you would have the means

the devil may care about those who don't. As I said. There was NO CLEAN WATER. NO STORE PERSONNEL TO RING IT UP. NO RESTAURANTS TO SERVE IT. NO MANAGER TO UNLOCK THE STORE TO SELL IT.

Yes..if looting were occurring next week or in the aftermath of a riot, you MIGHT be correct...but an aerial view of the city would indicate to me it was mayhem anyway.

If nobody wants looting then maybe they will think before the next time they support a president who sends their emergency infrastructure to an oil war when they could be home keeping the peace and recuing people and getting them to safety and clean water.

[Chico Man]

129. I'm sorry I have a very difficult time trying to use this disaster for

political gain. There will be plenty of time to point fingers. Right now, I'm just concerned about the people who really need help and I am just hoping they get it. That's all.

It was mayhem anyways, so looting is ok. Interesting. I can't buy that.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

131. You keep repeating this "political gain" talking point as though

that really is the point and again, I won't allow you to frame the debate that way. The national guard is there for OUR protection and unfortunately they can't do that if they aren't here. The gulf states were not planning on all three states being disaster areas...

And no it was not mayhem...it was a VERY FEW isolated incidents.

Again,,when YOU have nothing and no services nor food nor water are available, I will hold you to your much higher morals.

[Cleita]

103. Oh but those couple of gallons of wate might be too hard to lift.

Wow, I'll bet he has to stop at an abandoned store on his way out and loot as he goes along.

[Gelliebeans]

135. omg not the snowball effect

perhaps the dreaded slippery slope :sarcasm:

[Qibing Zero]

138. Oh yes

Marijuana leads to heroin too, doncha know!

[Cleita]

140. Yeah and it leads to sex and abortions.n/t

[Chico Man]

142. Wow the DU peer pressure is really heating up

Let's talk about the dreaded slippery slope, shall we.

If I successfully broke into WinnDixie, and stole pampers, some coke, and maybe took a jaunt over to the pharmacy and grabbed some Oxycontin...

Would I not then feel empowered to get away with additional theft?

I mean, I could just put my head in the sand and trust that all looting is for emergency purposes only..

But, as we know.. expensive things come in small packages..

[Gelliebeans]

152. As a human being

I haven't spent that much time looking into ulterior motives as you obviously have. I am sorry that in your world everything is so black and white. It must be lonely.

[Chico Man]

155. No I wan't really feeling lonely until I read your post.

Now I'm going to cry.

Du is really harsh sometimes. Why does it alway have to come to an onslaught of personal attacks when you go against the grain?

[Gelliebeans]

159. Here is a tissue. n/t

[Cleita]

161. I haven't read any personal attacks against you.

Yet you have made many attacks against the citizens of NO.

[Chico Man]

165. No, I just stated the facts

I'm sorry, I cannot believe that all looting that is taking place is being done purely for survival purposes.

Some of it is probably being done out of desperation. Given the diverse demographics of the city, the well known violent crime figures, the hurricane, and the fact that the people left in NO "most likely" choose to ignore reccomendations by the city to move to a suitable shelter, I can safely assume that some looting is being done in a criminal nature and I cannot given them all the benefit of the doubt.

Only time will tell.

Last timer I checked, calling somebody lonely on a discussion board was a personal attack.

[Nothing Without Hope]

73. I've been feeling the same way. A big story about "looting" that I read

at CNN, I believe, gave as the prime example some people "robbing a grocery story." Sounds more like some desperate people trying to find food and water when their homes are destroyed.

But the image of all those black people - they're ALWAYS black - carrying TVs around seems to be endlessly popular among those who prefer stereotypes. The partisan news media promote it.

[discopants]

111. Pampers

Every single shot has been some guy up to his waist in water taking pampers.

Yes, please keep your babies warm and dry. Our prayers are with you.

[Cleita]

124. I guess the myopic freepers think those are TV sets.

:eyes:

[Chico Man]

132. People against looting are FREEPERS.

Good one.

[Cleita]

137. Well aren't the TV newz outlets basically propaganda

outlets for the Republican Party? The freepers love them because they distort the news in such ways that it appeals to their little freeper hearts. Here people were trying to get pampers and they were accused of stealing TV sets. You can't deny that.

[Chico Man]

149. The pamper argument is turning into the token strawman..

How could anyone ever disagree with someone stealing diapers??

You and I still have absolutely no idea if looting even has taken place.

[Cleita]

171. I thought that was what my original post said.

You have argued otherwise all this time and now you are doing what could be called a flip flop.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

141. While I would never dream of accusing you of such, you seem to

be quick triggered in accusing people of the worst when the only identifiable product was the people with the pampers and anytime anyone comments that the national guard were not available you accuse them of politicizing.

[Chico Man]

151. I'm sorry I never saw pampers.

[oasis]

127. The corporate media is trying to create a story within a story. The only

takers so far have been short sighted folk with little or no life experience.

There is no point in asking any such "dense" person what he would do in a similar circumstance.

[Swamp Rat]

133. i don't care if people break into my home. i have four 5 gallon bottles

of spring water and plenty of canned food. they can have it all. i want people to live, not die. :cry:

[Gelliebeans]

148. You are awesome

and that is why we luv ya :hug:

[Catherine Vincent]

150. Amen, my brother.

Why are folks so strongly against looting? Big deal. Take the stuff and go, there are more important issues at hand. Firefighters/cops were caught looting after Sept. 11th. They got in trouble. Big whoop.

[Swamp Rat]

163. oh my god! levee breach and water rising

CNN had VP of Tulane hospital and says according to state police, breach is two blocks wide at 17th st ... water is rising very fast, running down canal street! My mom is down there and the phones are out! all the animals in Audubon zoo!! jesus! :cry:

[bpilgrim]

167. HOLY SHIT!

where is your mom, what kind of building, is she alone, ah man this is terrible, please keep us posted when you can :cry:

peace

[Swamp Rat]

180. She is in the Monteleone Hotel in the Quarter...

I cannot make contact with her now, and it's making me sick!... all the people in attics and the animals in Audubon Zoo, and the water is rising... my poor dogs! :cry:

[Catherine Vincent]

168. SR we're praying with you.

Oh, I feel for you people that have loved ones in the NOLA, MS area but can't get in contact with them.

[Cleita]

164. We love you.

You are the best. Too bad others don't have your generosity in the wake of adversity.

[Qibing Zero]

179. You sir, are awesome. nt

[Swamp Rat]

181. I would like to tell someone on this thread to "fuck off," but that would

be against the rules. :mad:

[Gelliebeans]

182. you let us know if there is anything

we can do to help you. I'm thinking good thoughts and I hope you hear from your mom soon.

[Swamp Rat]

183. Thank you... good to know there are HUMANS here on DU with COMPASSION

:cry:

[tx_dem41]

184. If these are liberal values on display on this thread....then liberalism..

is truly dead.

To justify stealing as a liberal ideal is either a sign of a total lack of morality or in the best case, naivete.

Please...if you tried to defend looting on this thread...please, don't call yourselves Democrats. You could care less about poor people because you obviously stereotype them in the most negative ways. And, your lust to politicize human misery apparent on this board the last few days, puts you right up there with your political enemies. You are two peas in a pod. Political hacks joined at the hips. Stepping on people in your greed for power.

Lust away folks. Its going to get lonely and frustrated for you.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

186. I Hate To Get Back In This Briar Patch...

Stealing out of expediency is wrong.... Stealing out of necessity can be morally justified....

What part of that can some people not understand.....


I can countenance stealing a bag of chips and some beef jerkies from Winn Dixie if you are starving but I can't countenance stealing a plasma tv from Best Buy.....

[tx_dem41]

188. I can agree with that, DSB.

And, I think you and I would also agree that what we saw on TV yesterday was not stealing out of necessity. People who justify these acts and attribute them to poor people have very little empathy for poor people.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

191. I Am Sure Most Authorities See It That Way Too..

but they can't go on tv and say it's ok to rob Winn Dixie because the food will rot anyway but don't rob the Best Buy because those tvs are non perishable...

But I would think from the comfort of our modems can make that simple distinctions...

[cap]

192. but I think the focus on looting is to start

getting us used to the fact that the government isnt going to help these people that much and that they arent worthy of help... just MHO

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

197. WHat did you see people stealing?

I saw the grocery store...that was it..beyond that I cannot say that people were stealing or going back to their own properties...if you have proof otherwise, I'd love to know.

[ultraist]

215. And WHY are people stealing?

Is it perhaps because they are too poor to be able to afford insurance to cover their lost possesions? Is is because there is an extremely high poverty rate in that area? WHY IS THAT?

For fucks sake, it's the racist, oppressive system that has created this situation. THEY should be held accountable!

[oasis]

193. Which poster said it was okay to steal a plasma tv?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

198. Here...

undergroundpanther (1000+ posts) Mon Aug-29-05 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. And A few hot plasma TV's Sold at a pawn shop ,could make for a couple months of prepaid existance..like food and rent an security deposit while you move out and look for work in a new place swarming with other refugees also looking for work while out of town.And in this shitty republican economy getting work is not so easy now..
Didya ever consider THAT might be a reason for stealing plasma TV's?

[oasis]

207. 8/29? I doubt if anyone on THIS thread would agree with that particular

post. I don't.

[oasis]

190. When the distribution of food and supplies become difficult, your sermon

will be of little help. Look at some of the news clips, those people are in the midst of a disaster. Recognition and appreciation of the plight of others IS what moves many to become Democrats.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

194. I Have Empathy For The Poor....

I mentor at risk kids......


I would have to think very little of a person if all I expected out of him or her is to be a thief....


However I make a distinction, a huge distinction between stealing out of necessity and stealing out of expediency....

There's a huge difference from stealing some Doritos and a six pack of Coke from a supermarket in a disaster zone and stealing a plasma tv...


I would have to think very little of a person if all I expected out of him or her is to be a thief....

[tx_dem41]

199. When the distribution of food and supplies becomes difficult...

we can talk about it. 12 hours after a hurricane hits is not that time.

Those people are in a disaster. Having grown up in New Orleans and lived through about 4 of them, I know what they are going through. To assume, that 12 hours after a hurricane hits, a person has no choice than to steal for survival, shows no respect at all for that person's capabilities or morals.

But feel free to politicize THEIR plight for YOUR gain. Its what political hacks do.

[oasis]

205. I'll leave it up to the individuals actually involved in the struggle for

survival to determine what their needs will be in the days to come.

I'm sure it will do them a hell of lot more good than someone coming forward to preach a bunch of self righteous, Boy Scout blather.

[Name removed]

208. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oasis]

210. YOU are directly involved? I think not. And calling me a GOP Rove hack

won't help to shore up the weakness of your argument.

[tx_dem41]

214. The weak don't learn from history....

c'est la vie.

[oasis]

218. "There is none so blind as he who will not see"

Bon voyage :hi:

[rman]

213. You are politicizing this by saying that those who appologize

for looters of food, should not call themselves liberals. By your own logic that makes you a political hack.

While on the other hand there's nothing political about looting, or apologizing thereof.

[tx_dem41]

217. No....it makes me someone from New Orleans who has loved ones...

down there. Some that evacuated and some that didn't. The ones that didn't....I have been unable to reach since Sunday afternoon. It makes me a person that comes on this forum to see if others from NOLa know the status of certain neighborhoods, and all I find are threads justifying looting plasma-tvs and ATMS and threads stating how they don't want to give charity money to red states.

What I find little of is human compassion or interest in the people of New Orleans. I do find a lot of faithlessness in what a community is capable of doing together. I know because I've been part of one before (twice) in very similar circumstances. And, in a few days, I will be part of that community again.

What will you be doing in a few days?

[rman]

219. you did say "should not call yourselves liberals"...

And now it turns out that means "i'm from New Orleans".

interesting.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

258. 12 hours after a disaster--perhaps they've decided to take the food

while it's still edible?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

195. That position is absurd

OK let's look at a few facts:

It was 90 degrees with 100% humidity.
All water in the city was contaminated.
No businesses were open.
All roads were closed.
I rather find your absolutism to put you in the same pod with my "political enemies"

but if it makes you feel better and sit in judgement a little better...I promise...if my city is ever under water with all sources of drinking water contaminated and no services available...I will simply sit there and dehydrate :NOT!!!:

oh yeah...and if I start my period and have no feminine protection available and all the roads are flooded and all paper goods in my home are soaked and all that...I promise I will not to anything that you would not approve of.

And if my refrigerator is underwater and I cannot touch it for fear of spoiling that food which remains until the water subsides...I promise not to feed myself.

No one is defending taking people's property...but for the groceries in the store,,,it wasn't as if they could leave a check on the counter.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

200. I Still Don't Understand This Debate...

You would have to be a horses ass to deny food or medicine to a person unable to pay for it....

Repeat...

You would have to be a horses ass to deny food or medicine to a person unable to pay for it....

I think some of us take exception to the to the train of thought that looting is some kind of revolutionary act because the people whose property is being appropriated are the wrong people....

[tx_dem41]

201. Being from New Orleans, my house was underwater twice in about...

10 years... No AC for three weeks both times with 90 degrees/100% humidity. We couldn't get out of our neighborhood for a week. I didn't see looting then from myself or my fellow neighbors or anyone else in my hometown. Within 24-36 hours, the city, the state, and Red Cross were providing necessities.

What I did see was people pulling together. I saw the positive aspects of a community working together. What this thread sees is the negatives of a community tearing apart and revels in it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

203. No it doesn't. No one defended taking anything but food, water

and diapers. Period.

[tx_dem41]

206. Not true if we are talking about all the looting threads from yesterday...

which I am addressing.

Yesterday on the thread "Looters" the OP justified breaking into ATMs...stealing plasma TVs. He was supported by more than one poster. Breaking into homes were justified. Using insurance as a form of extortion was justified. It was veritable meeting of the five families.

[Qibing Zero]

278. "I would die if the only way to get food was to steal it"

This is what you sound like. Like another person earlier in the thread, you're trying to turn life into a black and white game of morality. That's just not how things work, and it's an extremely dangerous way of thinking. That kind of 'wrong' and 'right' is what leads people like bush to their decisions. Put yourself in their situation, have a bit of compassion. Not all of it is justified of course, but you are way too quick to condemn these people.

[ScreamingMeemie]

196. All these looting stories are an attempt to deflect just what the damage

was in human costs IMO.

[alarimer]

202. The media are making way too big a deal about it

I don't think the looting, if any, is widespread. Anyway who cares? It is only stuff. The focus shold be on saving people's lives; property really shouldn't matter at this point. There is also an element of racism going on and the poor people were left behind to DIE. They will also make up most of the homeless in the wake of this storm because , guess what, the better-off get to live on higher ground, not next to the swamps or in the parts of NO that are below sea level. So I don't give a rat's ass about looting except that it diverts attention from what really matters.

[ScreamingMeemie]

204. Bingo. Nice post.

:hi:

[Pithlet]

221. 100% agree.

I think anyone who is worried about looting at this point, when most of that city is under many feet of water, and can moralize about it sitting in their warm, dry house stocked with food is completely out of touch with reality. There are concerns much bigger than looting at this point. I can't believe the media are focusing on that so soon. The Haley Barbours (I probably didn't spell his name right and don't care) of the world can go to hell right now.

[ultraist]

209. The real looting will happen when the no bid contracts are signed

"Certain" contractors will get big no bid contracts for clean up and rebuilding. There will be no accountability and money will get "lost."

Real looting is allowing a 80% poverty rate where a disproportionate number of those in poverty are Black.

As far as the images we are being shown, the MSM has a long history of perpetuating negative stereotypes of Blacks and over emphasizing petty crimes. It's not as satisfying for them to cover white collar crime and do stories on white guys who steal huge sums of money.

It's not only the media that is biased, our justice system is as well. Stealing a raggly ass car will get someone more time than embezzling thousands of dollars. Possession of a small amount of crack is punished more severely than large quantities of prescription drugs, obtained illegally.

Your instincts are good Cleita! Something certainly does smell. It smells of insidious racism.

[zanne]

220. Is this only showing on Cable news?

I didn't see anything about this on ABC, NBC or CBS.

[Chico Man]

225. For those that somehow associate looting with survival and compassion

Here is something a bit more positive to focus on..

http://www.redcross.org/pressrelease/0,1077,0_314_4473,00.html

WASHINGTON, Monday, August 29, 2005 — The American Red Cross is launching the largest mobilization of resources in its history for a single natural disaster. Hurricane Katrina, a deadly Category 4 storm, is barreling ashore this morning along the Gulf Coast and has the potential to leave widespread devastation in its wake.

"Hurricane Katrina is wreaking havoc for southeast Florida and the Gulf coast states," said Joe Becker, Senior Vice President of Preparedness and Response for the American Red Cross. "The Red Cross will meet the challenge by doing what we do best—coming together to respond with tireless compassion to take care of our neighbors."

The Red Cross is mobilizing on all fronts to bring relief to storm victims. More than two hundred Red Cross shelters are housing thousands of residents who fled Katrina’s wrath. All available resources from across the country, including thousands of staff and volunteers are being moved to safe areas, so additional relief efforts can begin immediately after the storm passes. More than 200 emergency response vehicles (ERVs) and countless other Red Cross resources are en route or on the scene to provide hot meals, snacks, bottled water and distribute other much-needed relief supplies. In coordination with the Southern Baptists, preparations have been made to provide more than 500,000 hot meals to storm-weary residents each day.

"We are prepared at every level for what will likely be a catastrophic disaster," said Lois Grady-Wesbecher, Manager of the Disaster Operations Center at American Red Cross national headquarters. "When Mother Nature is at her worst, the American Red Cross is at its best."

Hurricane Katrina strengthened into one of the fiercest storms ever seen in the U.S. Not only has Katrina intensified, but it has also grown substantially in size—it is now about 460 miles wide—the distance from New Orleans to Atlanta. Destruction from this storm will not be limited to coastal areas. After making landfall Hurricane Katrina will progress inland Monday leaving behind a trail of flooding rains and damaging winds, spreading across the country and eventually into the Northeast. The Red Cross will continue to provide a safe haven and disaster assistance to victims along its path.

American Red Cross disaster assistance is free, made possible by voluntary donations of time and money from the American people. You can help the victims of this and thousands of other disasters across the country each year by making a financial gift to the American Red Cross Disaster Relief Fund, which enables the Red Cross to provide shelter, food, counseling and other assistance to those in need. Call 1-800-HELP NOW or 1-800-257-7575 (Spanish). Contributions to the Disaster Relief Fund may be sent to your local American Red Cross chapter or to the American Red Cross, P. O. Box 37243, Washington, DC 20013. Internet users can make a secure online contribution by visiting www.redcross.org.

[wtmusic]

226. An observation

this thread has lost focus. The argument is not whether looting is right or wrong, it's the emphasis it's receiving, especially during a natural disaster. It's like a cop handing out speeding tickets when there's a five-car pileup down the road, with injuries.

IMO.

[Chico Man]

227. Do a search for looting on news.google.com

I don't think it is receiving all that much emphasis.

And any emphasis it is receiving I think is due to the risk looting presents to the recovery efforts..

It makes matters much, much worse as resources are diverted from life saving to law enforcement.

[wtmusic]

228. You're contradicting yourself

If resources are being diverted, it's receiving too much emphasis.

[Chico Man]

229. In the media?

Or the law enforcement community?

"A 50-foot water main broke in New Orleans, making it unsafe to drink the city's water without first boiling it. And police made several arrests for looting."

Does not seem like undue emphasis to me.

[bpilgrim]

230. the Gov of MS, Barbour is the one giving undue focus on this issue...

here he is from yesterday...
http://news.globalfreepress.com/mp3/katrina/looting_will_be_treated_ruthlessly.mp3

this morning he was talking about treating looters 'MERCILESSLY'
talk about having fucked up priorities :puke:

peace

[Chico Man]

232. Ok, put yourself in his shoes

We have the American Red Cross currently implementing the largest relief effort in the history of the United States.

Looting can and will lead to other serious crimes.

What would you do? Tell the people it's every man for himself?

Loot as you see fit?

[bpilgrim]

234. i would focus on saving lives FIRST. property comes 2nd, hello...

fyi

peace

[Chico Man]

235. Hello.. looting could escalate, into a life threatening situation..

putting lives at risk...

He is trying to mitigate the risk.

How would you handle the issue if you were governor and asked by the media? Say it's ok to loot? Or do your best to deter people from making matters worse?

[Cleita]

240. Yes, rescue workers have to get their priorties straight.

Saving lives is number one. Petty theft is way down on the list for me considering most of the damage and loss of goods will most likely be compensated for with insurance, disaster funds and various charitable disaster funds.

[Chico Man]

244. Now that the American Red Cross is on the scene..

People have a choice for aid..

Either loot the corner drug store or let the American Red Cross and other support agencies do the job they were designed to do.

There is no risk in receiving aid from Red Cross and other agencies. There is an inherent risk that looting could simly escalate into an out of control environment. Which would you choose? What are the true motives of those that choose to loot?

[bpilgrim]

249. "on the scene" this is an ongoing DISASTER across multiple STATES

get a CLUE and stop spouting your ignorant inanities, please.

peace

[Chico Man]

263. .

"get a CLUE and stop spouting your ignorant inanities, please."

I have faith in the Red Cross System and I believe looting presents a tremendous risk to the situation. I have backed these beliefs with innumerable points and assertions. How you can call my presentation in this debate ignorant, spew, an inanity, or clueless showcases something about your particular side of this argument. Specifically, you have nothing more to go on but nasty personal attacks.

[Cleita]

255. I guess you didn't get the memo.

Relief agencies at last word haven't been able to set up rescue operations because there is no safe place yet for them to do so.

[Chico Man]

260. How about the Superdome?

Just wondering.

[bpilgrim]

264. why don't you get your facts straight before showing off your FAITH BASED

ignorance :shrug:

peace

[Chico Man]

267. Ok lets continue this

Wow next thing you'll do is call me a frepper for sure.

So you think faith is the system and the belief that looting presents an enormous risk to the situation is ignorant.

Who is the one looking the other way here.

[Cleita]

265. Why don't you ask them? I'm not running rescue operations.

eom

[Chico Man]

272. I think they are busy trying to get aid to people

[Guaranteed]

231. I haven't been watching the news...

So I have no perspective as to if they've been blowing the looting potential out of proportion.

Stealing food and other necessities when in a desperate situation is clearly understandable. I'd steal if I was in such a position, although I'd try to steal from those who clearly had much, much more than enough. I don't like the idea of people fighting over food.

But stealing is also one of those things that is subject to slippery slopes and mass hysteria. It's easy for it to degenerate into full-blown looting- and I do like the distinction that has been made in these threads. When you're hungry and you're already taking food from a store, I can imagine that it might "Dawn on me that I need new home furniture"- and, hey, I'm already stealing. What's the difference when it's all covered by insurance anyway?

I think it's important that, while we have compassion for those who are having to act in desperate ways to get the things that they need, we maintain the rule of law and our ethics. Doing so isn't going to stop someone who needs food or other necessities from getting them- and that's a good thing. We just can't let situations like these get out of control, and I think that expressly condoning looting could lead to that.

It's like telling your kids about drugs. I know that my kids are going to be exposed to drugs, and I think it's part of growing up to experiment with them. But I don't think telling children that it's *alright* to do drugs is the right message. They need to remember that they're dangerous, and keep it to a minimum. It's the same with stealing. The less it is done, the better, although the people hit by the hurricane may have no other choice. It's okay for those people to do so as long as it is absolutely necessary.

[Chico Man]

233. Very good post

"But stealing is also one of those things that is subject to slippery slopes and mass hysteria."

Couldn't have been put better, IMHO.

We need to focus on the true compassion that we are going to see from organizations such as the America Red Cross that are currently implementing the largest recovery and aid effort in the history of the United States....

[mountainvue]

241. The only people that I saw that

were supposedly looting were carrying diapers.

[Chico Man]

245. I saw shopping carts full of "stuff" being hastily carted out of the Win

Dixie.

Regardless, the American Red Cross and other govt. disater agencies are now on the scene, providing diapers, etc. The need to loot (if there ever was any) has subsided. Lets focus on helping these agencies provide the nececcary aid which will in turn prevent looting and help with a speedy recovery.

[mountainvue]

247. I'm sorry but I have to disagree. There are many that are not within

reach of the Red Cross.

[Chico Man]

248. If you can reach the local Win Dixie with a shopping cart

I'd have to assume you can reach the Red Cross. Or, help will be on the way shortly.

[bpilgrim]

254. what a juvenile assumption

must be nice to live in bliss

peace

[Chico Man]

256. Wow

It is not an assumption, it is based on this information from the Red Cross..

http://www.redcross.org/pressrelease/0,1077,0_314_4473,00.html

The Red Cross is mobilizing on all fronts to bring relief to storm victims. More than two hundred Red Cross shelters are housing thousands of residents who fled Katrina’s wrath. All available resources from across the country, including thousands of staff and volunteers are being moved to safe areas, so additional relief efforts can begin immediately after the storm passes. More than 200 emergency response vehicles (ERVs) and countless other Red Cross resources are en route or on the scene to provide hot meals, snacks, bottled water and distribute other much-needed relief supplies. In coordination with the Southern Baptists, preparations have been made to provide more than 500,000 hot meals to storm-weary residents each day.

Do you believe in the Red Cross? Do you understand the risk that looting presents?

[bpilgrim]

261. no one can even get into MANY areas across multiple states

even the red cross, hello...

you seem to think, based upon your posts, that they are EVERYWHERE now :eyes:

peace

[Chico Man]

270. The images /reports of supposed looting were obviously not coming from

Those areas.

CNN cameramen caught looting on tape in downtown NO. Is the american Red Cross not there yet? Let me know.

[bpilgrim]

253. on an attract loop repeated endlessly no doubt

of survivors trying to survive for another day in which many weeks will pass before things begin to resemble any sense of normal, hello...

"The need to loot (if there ever was any) has subsided"

how the fuck do you know? this disaster is spread across multiple states, sheesh.

peace

[Chico Man]

259. I'm sorry I have faith

http://www.redcross.org/pressrelease/0,1077,0_314_4473,00.html

I'm sorry I have faith in the emergency response system.

I'm sorry I think looting presents a dangerous situation that could easily get out of control.

[bpilgrim]

262. yeah, faith based logic always looks good on the white board

but doesn't hold up well in the real world.

you must be very young or very sheltered.

peace

[Chico Man]

266. .

"you must be very young or very sheltered."

Again I apologize for my faith in the recovery and my thinking that looting will only make matters worse. I will not resort to these personal attacks. If you want to continue to push insults my way, by all means please do so.

[bpilgrim]

268. .

as long as you keep posting your faith based ignorance i will respond.

peace

[Chico Man]

271. Oh you make me feel so small

And I love the association to the "faith based" programs of Bush et al. I'm sure it will help you round up your minions if your effort to destroy my side of the debate... which happens to be...

Looting is riskly because it could easily escalate into lawlessness.

[bpilgrim]

273. "destroy my side of the debate" - lol

it is self evident by your own posts that you don't know what you are talking about and please don't flatter yourself to try to elevate the nonsense you post to the level of a debate.

PRIORITIES in a DISASTER are

1. LIFE
2. PROPERTY

hopefully you understand that now.

don't drink the kool-aide...
http://news.globalfreepress.com/mp3/katrina/looting_will_be_treated_ruthlessly.mp3

peace

[Chico Man]

275. Looting can lead to loss of life

Looting can easily lead to loss of life GREATER than that without looting because of the environment of lawlessness. If one person gets away with a crime, the next will get away with a larger one. And so the cycle continues.

This is why the Gov of Miss. said what he said. He doesn't want looting. He knows the complications that looting can create.

I'm not defending corporate interests. I'm just trying to prevent a secondary human catastrophy triggered by looting post-disaster.

[milkyway]

252. How much time has CNN given Halliburton's looting of our tax dollars in

Iraq? There's billions of dollars unaccounted for in Iraq, and maybe even a trillion dollars the U.S. military can't account for. But instead of having a serious investigation of these, we get round-the-clock coverage of low-income people perhaps facing starvation taking some stuff (if indeed that's what they are doing).

The owners of these stores are going to have a lot bigger problems than some stolen inventory anyway, much of which will either be spoiled or damaged beyond repair.

[bpilgrim]

257. exactly, they are the PROTECTED class & this is a perfect example of the

jack boots repeatedly pressing their heels on our throats and it is GROSS in the middle of a DISASTER :puke:

peace

[Swamp Rat]

277. ATTN: DU Mods, as a refugee from New Orleans who has lost everything,

I humbly ask you:

PLEASE LOCK THIS THREAD!

This type of thread, which has degenerated into something disgusting, is not helping we who are living this hell... it is counter-productive.

It is simple:

1. Looting is bad

2. Starving humans is exponentially worse.