Looting is not survival

[mongo]

Survival is finding the Red Cross, or the National Guard, getting out and getting help.

Why are these people looting instead of trying to find help? Perhaps it is because they want some supplies for themselves and possibly some more to sell to they can go back to their own homes to protect their own possessions.

But hey, all those store owners are "rich" so it's OK, right?

Looting is opportunistic behavior. Some of the comments in the other threads are disgusting. It is the same kind of rationalizations that shoplifters use.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. Depends on what they looted...if it was food, water or beer

toilet paper or the like (i.e. essentials) it was survival. Period.

[Lex]

4. I agree. nt

[mongo]

12. So if I have a choice

between looting some food and diapers from the store around the corner and going home or gathering my family up and walking 2 miles to find the national guard, where I'll be picked up and taken to a shelter, is it still survival?

Or is it being opportunistic? I've got to stay in my living room all night with my shotgun to keep MY TV from being stolen, right?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

23. When you actually have to wade 2 miles in sewage infested water

with snakes and water moccasins and other critters, come back and tell me.

If people are looting other people's homes I am not defending that. If people broke into grocery stores yesterday at a time when emergency personnel were sparce..I don't judge them...

[kick-ass-bob]

27. I'd like to see your ass walk through 20 feet of water.

Some parts of town are impassible. Others are not.

The only safe place in N.O. seems to be the raised highway.

[Jersey Devil]

13. LOL, beer? Is that an "essential"?

First off, no one could possibly be starving after one day. The beer, though, I could understand.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

29. they might be hungry after struggling to get out..how elitist is this

conversation going to get? Oh and in 90 degree heat with 100 percent humidity...I think...beer ...water...whatever

[Jersey Devil]

32. elitist? No one starves in one day no matter how poor they are

Give me a break. OK, if they are taking baby food I'll go along with that. Other than that they are just adding to the chaos and helping no one, including themselves.

[sundog]

40. when was the last time you went over 24 hours without food?

just askin

[Media_Lies_Daily]

53. 24+ hours living in the open with the kind of heat and humidity present...

...along the Gulf Coast will cause young children and the elderly to begin to rapidly dehydrate without water. The energy expended by these people just trying to survive is placing extraordinary stress on their systems and burning calories MUCH faster than normal. So, yes, people DO begin to burn their fat reserves very quickly, and hunger becomes a very real problem.

Under ordinary circumstances, 24 hours is not a problem if one has to go without food and water. These are VERY far from ordinary circumstances.

[Jersey Devil]

62. You wish they were stealing just food & water but they aren't

They are stealing clothes, jewelry, electronic equipment, etc. There is no excuse for it no matter how much you might try to justify it.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

82. "They" who? How many are "they"? Who's justifying the theft of....

...high-dollar items? All of my posts have been about getting the essentials for basic survival. You obviously have never been in a situation that was all about life and death.

I'd like to see how you would respond if you found yourself in the same or similar situation.

[Misunderestimator]

114. So you would walk past food when you are hungry and have no

way to pay for the food and no one to pay... and you don't have a clue where your next meal is coming from... because ethically it is "wrong" to "steal" that food... sitting right there in front of you. You would wait until you are actually starving before you would eat food that would spoil anyway... so that by the time you let go of your "ethics" the food is inedible. Right. Or maybe you just like to judge others.

[Gormy Cuss]

172. I would.

I would walk right by the food until I was actually starving. You may not see the sense it in, but some of us do think that way. I know that I can survive simple hunger for days as long as I have something for hydration. Because I know that, I would not steal until my health was at risk.

My moral stand would be different if I saw the opportunity to get food for my family members. For them I would steal spoilable food. I'd also steal canned goods, blankets, flashlights, batteries, anything in terms of "informal" aid in a disaster if we had none and no knowledge of a way to obtain them legally. All bets are off in terms of keeping my loved ones safe.

[Misunderestimator]

173. I would take the food. To not do so would be stupid.

And it's arrogant to assume how you would behave if you were starving.

That said... how on earth do you think it's ok to steal for your family and not for yourself? Would it be good for your family for you to starve and become too weak to help them?

Why am I even answering this... :eyes:

[Gormy Cuss]

174. Read what I said.

I said I would not do so if only hungry, as opposed to actually starving. In true starvation I'd eat the pages out of the phone book if necessary. One or two days without food isn't starving for most people. Lack of hydration is another matter.

As I said, it may not make sense to you, but this is the ethical position of some people. It's not OK to steal ever, but for my family I'd 'sin,' so to speak. I know when I'm likely to violate my own ethics. To help me alone, no. To prevent harm to others, yes.

[Kerrytravelers]

176. I would bet that those too poor to get out of town probably haven't

the money to eat too well either. Their nutrition probably isn't enough to sustain them for the same length someone who eats healthy- like I am able to do.

Again, I'm not defending those who steal jewerly and heirlooms from their neighbors. My defense is of those who could not get out and whose supplies are too low or non-existant. These are the people we are defending, not those who take advantage of a natural disaster.

[Gormy Cuss]

177. Agreed.

That's why I separated 'hungry' from 'starving.' If you're already living on half the calories you should, you'd reach the point of desparation much faster than someone who started out with a full belly.

I also was simply pointing out what I would do because a poster said no one would act that way. Without getting into details, I know long term poverty (but thankfully not starvation) and had opportunities to acquire food and other essential items through a 'ten finger discount.' I said no then, I'd say no now. I was not telling everyone else to have my ethics. Hell, I didn't even say where I stood on the NOLA looters for that matter.

Who would have thought looting threads could turn into such flamefests?

[Maru Kitteh]

188. Have you ever been hungry? I don't mean

"DAMN! Why is that kitchen waiting so long to get our food out?" or "jeez! I forgot to eat lunch today." kind of tired. No. What I am talking about kicks in when the tummy has given up. It takes way less time than you think and when it does kick in....... it's part of your very body and soul.

[Gormy Cuss]

195. I chose words carefully.

Do I know the difference between the minor hunger of a missed meal and more protracted hunger and food insecurity? Yes. I'm not interested in posting any more personal details on a public discussion board. I have never been without food long enough to face starvation. It rankles me when people say "I'm starving!" when they really mean they're ready to eat their next meal.
I have been clear on this thread that I am speaking of my own ethics, not how I expect everyone else to behave, yet I keep getting questioned for saying what I would do. That's as insulting as if I insisted that vegans should lighten up when the vegetable soup is made with chicken broth because humans are omnivores and veganism isn't natural so I know that you really want chicken.

[Maru Kitteh]

196. Nice try but

The human body is a machine designed for survival. You can stand sanctimonious and self assured about your ethics but these people are facing circumstances much more dire than food insecurity. Shit.... Food insecurity was their normal routine and daily life. This is 1000 times removed and until you are facing disease, death and utter and complete destruction you really have no idea what you would do. You_just_don't_know. To pretend otherwise is folly.

[Gormy Cuss]

197. Thank you for your sanctimony.

Did you miss the part where I said I'd eat the pages out of a phone book? I have not once said that in the desperate state of starvation I wouldn't violate my own ethics. I said and meant hunger. I defined what I meant by hunger. Gnawing hunger. My point was, and is, I would not have been looting out of need yesterday. Is it possible that I would have joined the looting out of frustration, fear, anger? Yes, but it would not be because I was starving. Later in the week would be a different story. Do I know exactly how I would behave in NOLA? Nope, and never said I did. If that's sanctimonious, fine.

[Maru Kitteh]

203. You're welcome - you earned it - n/t

[Kerrytravelers]

215. I wasn't attempting to flamefest you at all.

Please don't take my post as hostile, as that was not the intent.

I save my hostilities for shrub-livin' rethug terrorists! :)

[Roxy66]

182. My ethics as well...thank you for explaining my position as well

[SammyWinstonJack]

57. "How elitist is this conversation going to get?" Very! I am afraid.

I guess people can just walk their ass to the local NG for help. Through waste high water with all manner of sewage and creepy crawly things. Yep! Jesus Christ! Who the hell cares about looting of essential live saving articles in horrific conditions that currently exist? :banghead: Some people here need to get their priorities straight! Put yourself in this nightmare scenario and see what you do to survive and how you react! Dammit! Unbelievable isn't it?

[Jersey Devil]

67. The looting is in the downtown business areas

In NO itself the water did not cut anyone off until last night. And this is after several days of people being told to stock up on food and water. So am I supposed to believe that those who stayed were all to stupid to go out any get enough food and water to last a lousy 24 hours before they have to resort to looting?

[SammyWinstonJack]

121. Believe what you want. Suppose all their food was destroyed with the

rest of their belongings? Since you are not in that horrific situation, you can't possibly know what their reasons for 'looting' are, now can you? Stupid is as stupid does.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

33. Ever deal with an hungry and dehydrated child after they don't eat or....

...drink anything for 24 hours? Especially one that's been outside in the elements during that same period of time?

Some of you folks seem to have forgotten that very young children are caught up in something over which they have no control and no way of getting their own food and/or water.

[Jersey Devil]

44. You feed your kids beer and microwave ovens?

I understand about the kids but the reports are of widespread looting of things like jewelry and electronic equipment.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

56. I'm willing to bet that very little of the looting is involving "jewelry..

...and electronic equipment", but it sure makes good video for the media to show, doesn't it?

You can be a smartass all you want, but unless you've lived in an area like that, and/or ever been in a situation like New Orleans, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

78. I've noticed over the years that when backed into a corner....

...some people begin to post totally irrational and unrelated comments.

Congratulations!

[Jersey Devil]

85. There is no logic that you can employe to justify stealing

This is not the French Revolution or Les Miserables, you are not Victor Hugo and I am not Javert.

This is a situation where people have been without food or water for about 24 hours and many are taking advantage of the chaos to commit theivery. It cannot be permitted and you have no logic that you can use that can suddenly make stealing a virtue.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

93. Just as I suspect...you've never been in a situation like this, and you...

...don't have a clue what you would personally do to survive.

I bet you would be greatly surprised at what you might do.

[Jersey Devil]

101. Exactly WHO has "been in a situation like this"?

You? I know this. Had I been in NO for the hurricane I would have had enough water and food for one lousy day for Chrissakes. And if I didn't I would have gone to the Superdome or one of the other shelters before the storm if I did not have the money to evacuate in the first place.

I would not be starving or dying of thirst after waking up this morning and finding the streets flooded that were not flooded last night. If I had nothing in my house last night, or no house, I would have found my way to a shelter.

I would not be stealing stuff that belongs to other people.

[oasis]

145. Governor Blanco just announced that "There is no food to be had" on CNN.

I applaud anyone who took measures to feed their families for more than a day.

[VolcanoJen]

46. Yes. And it's great for bartering.

It's a canned liquid that's easy to carry and doesn't require preparation. Mostly water. Contains carbs. Relieves stress and shock.

Excellent bartering tool for food, diapers, bleach and other essentials, if it looks like the Red Cross or National Guard won't be established for a few days.

[Jersey Devil]

49. I see. So is a TV or an ipod, so it is OK to steal them too I suppose

Jewelry would probably be the best! Then when a looter is caught with diamonds he just heisted after throwing a rock through a jewelry store window he can claim he was only trying to feed his kids. Sure, makes sense.

[VolcanoJen]

55. Can't drink jewelry. Jewelry won't keep you hydrated.

I don't condone the theft of non-essential items.

Beer is an excellent, safe form of hydration. The use of beer as a bartering tool for food and essentials is a side effect, a handy benefit, and a reality.

From beer to jewelry? Quite a stretch.

[Jersey Devil]

59. No, jewelry exposes the folly of your barter suggestion

I bet you could get a lot of beer for a 1 ct solitaire, don't you think?

These looters are creating chaos and hurting other citizens, including themselves, because pretty soon they are going to start shooting them.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

75. Just curious, but how many actual looters do you believe are....

...currently operating in New Orleans? And then, how many of those people are getting basic necessities of life as opposed to taking jewelry, TVs, microwaves, etc.?

Just curious, but could you answer the following questions:

1. In what part of the country do you currently live?

2. In what part of the country did you grow up?

3. Have you ever lived along the Gulf Coast?

4. Have you ever been directly affected by a major disaster such as an earthquake and/or hurricane?

5. Have you ever gone without eating or drinking for 24+ hours in a very hot and humid environment after expending large amounts of energy trying to save the lives of your family and yourself?

Just curious.

[Jersey Devil]

81. How about you answer my question first?

Do you want them shot? Because no matter what their reason is for looting, no matter how "justified" or "necessary" it may be, under martial law (which I understand has been declared in parts of the Gulf Coast) looters can be shot on sight.

And we both know that if looting of any kind continues on a widespread scale the authorities will be forced to take extreme measures in order to restore order.

Then there will be a lot of dead looters, including many who are truly innocents, just stealing food and water for survival. Is that what you recommend?

[VolcanoJen]

83. Somewhere in an American living room...

... and armchair is missing its quarterback.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

88. Which question? Are you referring to the one where you asked if....

...I was Dick Cheney? Once you threw that one on the pile, I decided that you don't deserve to have ANY of your questions answered.

Now, back to MY questions:

1. What alleged "widespread looting" are you talking about?

2. How many people out of the tens of thousands of people stranded in New Orleans are actually involved in this alleged "widespread looting"?

3. Do you want people, expecially children and the elderly, to die because you think they shouldn't take food and water for their own survival?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

60. Your posts are going from bad to worse on this subject.

[Jersey Devil]

74. No, but the posts by those who would allow looting are getting

extremely desperate in the manner they are trying to justify it.

Looting simply cannot be permitted. It leads to chaos and violence. These people are going to wind up getting shot. I don't want that to happen. But if they are encouraged more people will do it and that is exactly what will happen.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

76. See my post #75 and answer the questions.

[HamdenRice]

137. I don't take a position on looting in general -- but BEER is essential nt

[eridani]

190. Beer doesn't have sewage in it. n/t

[Benbow]

192. Beer is essential if there is nothing else safe to drink in 90 degree heat

I can't believe the poverty of imagination or compassion in the original post to this thread.

[LostinVA]

194. Alcohol is one of the worst things you can drink

It dehydrates you.

[Mike Daniels]

since when is beer essential?

In the absence of bottled water, I could see someone using beer to fend off dehydration on some level. However, I doubt most people stealing/scavenging/looting beer are doing it over a life or death survival situation.

[HamdenRice]

138. As I said -BEER is ALWAY essential nt

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

170. If I had just lost everything and my city looked like "Escape from LA'

I'd need a beer

[maveric]

2. And what if you cant get to the Red Cross and the NG is in Iraq?

What if you cant get out another area where releif may be?
If put in that situation, with mouths to feed, I would not hesitate to help myself to food or supplies to aid in the survival of my family.
What would you do?

[mongo]

17. Search and rescue is in full swing now

and if people want to be evacuated and taken to shelters, they are getting the opportunity.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. So is there looting tape from today or are you watching yesterday's

repeats when no one was around?

[mongo]

110. I don't have TV at work

and I don't have internet at home.

[Misunderestimator]

118. There is no new footage on looting today.

Just occasional insinuations of looting but not film and no pics. Amazing, CNN is actually reporting on important things like human suffering and rescues. DU seems disproportionately obsessed with looting. :shrug:

[VolcanoJen]

68. Someone threw himself to his death at the Super Dome today.

The toilets are overflowing, the heat is unbearable, and the food scarce. It's not one of the idealized shelters that posters in this thread suggest, but it's a reality, and all they have for now.

They're also using it as a central evac staging area and hospital.

It will be days before good shelters with adequate food supplies and potable water will be available.

[LSK]

3. so let the people starve and the food root??

Is that what you are saying?? It not like the grocery store will be operating anytime soon.

[Lex]

6. Exactly. Because it's an "ownership society" according to Bush

so just let the grocer's food rot--don't even think about eating it.

Even if you intend to pay for it later--when the store is back open.

[mongo]

24. people aren't walking out of stores with heads of lettuce

They are getting formula, diapers, drugs, etc. High priced items they can resell.

Yeah, the picture of the busted up ATM I saw in a grocery store last night was so that people could survive.

[LSK]

34. ok, you live without a home in a swamp with no utilities for months

Thats what these people are facing. I will not judge these people from my comfy air conditioned home on my sofa because I have no way to comprehend the hardships these people will be facing.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

39. To whom are they going to sell that stuff?? Think about it.

[LSK]

47. kinda hard to sell computers on Ebay when the power is out n/t

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

45. Well it does take money to get shelter when your home has collapsed

Hey look..our federal government knew this was going to be a disaster...if they had provided busses to the people remaining or means of getting gas..they'd be dealing with a hell of a lot less looters right now.

[MadHound]

48. Or could it be

That they have a small sick child back at home, with no medicine or food available. Geez friend, these people are going through hell down there, cut them some slack.

[ret5hd]

5. Paging Inspector Javert!!!... Paging Inspector Javert!!!..

There are reports of a certain "Jean Valjean" and associated types running loose in New Orleans and Mississippi! Please report IMMEDIATELY!!!

[oasis]

130. Jean Valjean stole bread to feed his family. Some here frown upon theft

no matter what the reason. It somehow undermines capitalism and their Ayn Rand notion of how America is supposed to be.

[Rhiannon12866]

181. That was my exact thought yesterday while reading a similar "discussion."

Desperate times result in desperate measures. These people are without hope of help arriving anytime soon.:-(

[rocktivity]

7. If there's no other way to get food or supplies

and if the food in particular would only get waterlogged otherwise, then it's not only survival, it's common sense.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Walt Starr]

8. Looting TV's, Stereos, or sex toys would be wrong

Wading in chest deep water to that grocery store and taking a loaf of bread and whatever drinkable substance you can find is survival.

The Red Cross cannot get in yet and the National Guard is in Iraq.

[Hugin]

15. RIGHT ON WALT!

I agree with your sentiments 100%.

I mean... What're these people going to do with a T.V. folks?
PLUG IT IN?

THERE'S NO POWER! THERE'S NOTHING!

and it won't be back any time soon either.

CRIPES! GROW UP PEOPLE!

[CottonBear]

28. Thank you Walt. For gods sake, thy're stealing Pampers and food!

They have nothing left. The flood waters are rising as we speak. The Superdome is surrounded by flood waters and the French Quarter and Metarie are flooding now. People are stranded on their roofs and dead bodies are floating by. Who cares about someone looting food. The looters have to SWIM to loot according to the local WDSU news anchors who seem to think there are bigger problems like the lake totally flooding the city.

[DearAbby]

20. How do you expect these people to get essentials to survive when

Rescue teams are having problems getting into the area? Many of these people are poor and had no way to stock up even with the advanced warnings. When getting food on the table for one day is a struggle...remember Assistance checks, don't usually go out at the end of the month.

[mongo]

37. I realize assistance checks don't last until the end of the month

That's why our sales are greatest the first week of the month, and shoplifing increases at the end of the month.

And yes, if you are stuck with nowhere to go then fine. But there are 4000 national gaurd troops in the area, coast gaurd, red cross, etc.

If you are looting supplies it is because you want to go home to protect your own stuff (and drink beer) instead of going to a shelter.

[Hugin]

58. CORRECTION: That's 4000 NG for the entire state of Louisiana.

New Orleans:. New Orleans Population. Population of
the metropolitan area: 1337726

So, that's around 334 people for each NG. (Assuming each
NG can *get* to the people assigned.)

[Ediacara]

9. Well

If I lived three blocks from a grocery store and hadn't seen a helicopter or boat in two days, I think I'd "loot" a little in their situation....

[graywarrior]

10. If we can't get information on what's going on,

imagine what they're getting...it's every man or woman for themself. Would you trust your government that help is on the way? I don't condone looting, but this is of catastrophic proportions here. Panic makes people do crazy things.

[matcom]

11. Right. dying is survival.

down is up.
freedom is slavery.

gotcha :eyes:

[kick-ass-bob]

Bullshit.

There are rescue boats going through the city and are not able to pick people up for one reason or another. What the fuck are they supposed to do? Apparate themselves to a Red Cross shelter?

[bpilgrim]

19. these people live in bliss

and obviously have never survived a disaster to think that help is EVERYWHERE in the midst of an on-going and increasing disaster :eyes:

peace

[The Magistrate]

162. Indeed, Mr. Pilgrim

It will be a week and more before rescuers are into every flooded area of the city.

People must do what is ncessary....

[Rhiannon12866]

180. You're absolutely right, my friend.

Desperate times result in desperate measures. And it's going to get far worse before it gets better. It seems to get worse by the hour. People are already desperate because they're without hope, with nowhere to turn. If they're at the breaking point now, I fear for the next few days...;(

[Lex]

14. I say let the people take the necessities!

TV's--no.

Food, first aid supplies, beverages--yes.

[Karenina]

41. Man, y'all seem to be really hung up on

TVs! (Psssst- the power is out and the water levels are rising).

[Lex]

66. TVs being symbolic of a non-necessity. n/t

[Karenina]

87. In America???

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Lex]

91. No electricity makes them rather useless, no?

Or maybe you can feed your family with the parts of one? :hi:

[DearAbby]

123. Soon the TVs will be floating by on the gasoline river that is flooding

city...80% of the city is underwater, most of the merchandise will be total loss, written off on insurance claims. These people looting non essentials, most will have no where to put it, much less use it for barter. It's crazy behavior. Have not- can get some, for what it's worth...but really where can they take it? floating storage units? Their homes are being flooded by ever rising water.


On edit...Why worry about material things when it is a catastrophic event, life and death.

[CottonBear]

16. The Red Cross isn't there. The Coast Guard & Nat'l Guard are saving people

not arresting them at this point. The flood waters are rising in NO and Metarie as we speak. A man just jumped to his death in the Superdome. There is virtually no contact with St. Tammany Parrish where my in-laws are: they are alive is all we know at this time. The flood waters are filled with a toxic stew of gas, chemicals, alligators and drifts of debris and red ants. It is an unmitigated diaster of monumental proportions.

[Beaverhausen]

18. You aren't there

you don't know what these people are going through.

I think I might be doing the same in their situation. If I had to choose between looting or dying I'd loot.

I would try and pay the store back when I could.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

21. I'd like to see how you or any of the other strict anti-looters would....

...respond if you were in the same situation.

[Misunderestimator]

22. Why do you care? Maybe they are bringing it to the injured and dying

people in the Superdome... maybe they think they can sell spoiled, rotten food to unsuspecting tourists next week... maybe they just wanna steal something. Who the fuck cares?

Would that it would be so easy to "find" the Red Cross or the National Guard... how hilarious that you even suggest that the National Guard which is mainly deployed in Iraq... be "found" by survivors.

[mongo]

51. There are 4000 National Guard troops in NO

That's half of the La guard.

The store I saw last night was not underwater.

[Misunderestimator]

54. 80% of NO is underwater today. Who could have known what would

have happened yesterday. I for one, would have been glad to have gotten some food before it spoiled.

Why do you care?

[Cooley Hurd]

133. ...because they might steal PORN!

;)

[Misunderestimator]

141. LOL!

:spray:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

164. Bwahahahaha!

If the gov't banned porn, I'm sure this law abiding OP would immediately shut down with a "that's it folks, sorry but it's the law"

[Rhiannon12866]

183. *snarf*

Zing!:evilgrin:

on edit: you're in good company. (19 & 162...)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4510405&mesg_id=4510597

[Hugin]

64. And there are 1.3 Million people in the N.O. metro area.

What does that have to do with anything.

[Desertrose]

25. I really don't think we are in a postion to judge

This *is* really all about survival and quite frankly, if my family needed supplies, I 'd do *whatever* I had to do to get stuff for them.

I think this is a scenario none of us can imagine and to judge this as *opportunistic behavior* shows me trhat the OP has a big problem with compassion and putting himself in another (less fortunate) person's shoes.


You have NO IDEA what these people are faced with and going through and to compare this to shoplifting is pretty callous.

Seriously, do you think the Red Cross is ready in place with supplies for millions and millions of people today??

[Maru Kitteh]

26. You are right and you are wrong

1. There's not anywhere near enough guard - they're all in Iraq, perhaps you've heard about the war? It's on all the T.V.'s.

2. The Red Cross can't get in for days. They're not there at all. There's been a hurricane and a flood. Perhaps you've heard? It's on all the T.V.'s too.

If you think people with no food or safe water taking bottled water and food is not survival - you are beyond help. To me anyone who would deny the hungry and thirsty in the midst of disaster is possessed of a heart as cold and dark as our dear leader.

If they're stealing diamonds and Laptop computers, that's quite another story. Those who would steal for personal gain in the midst of disaster are just scum.

[malta blue]

31. You can't be serious

People have had their spouses, children, pets, EVERYTHING, taken from them. There is no way for them to get to a shelter without wading through who knows what kind of toxic water, throw in some floating bodies, and hungry crocs. If the store down the street had some water, I would try to get there and then race back to the evil I knew. Come on!

[Thtwudbeme]

35. What's disgusting is the armchair moralizing going on in your post

if you were hungry as hell, and looking at your wife or kids who are hungry as hell...and there ISN'T going to be any help today or tomorrow...

THEN you can moralize all the fuck you want to.

[slackmaster]

43. If you are near my home when an earthquake hits you won't go hungry

I'll share what I have with you or anyone.

[ecstatic]

207. yeah... that

Holding back my true feelings took some serious restraint.

[Tyranny_R_US]

36. and when the red cross can't do shit when you need aid NOW....

what are you going to do "mongo"?

[slackmaster]

38. Survival is HAVING YOUR SHIT TOGETHER and taking care of yourself

You find the RC, NG, etc. only when you are unable to handle your own problems.

Looting is opportunistic behavior. Some of the comments in the other threads are disgusting. It is the same kind of rationalizations that shoplifters use.

Looting for survival does occur, but I believe it's the exception. Disposable diapers and food do not come in boxes marked "Sony" or "Bud Lite".

[Kerrytravelers]

63. If I were in a Target or other type store, I'd dump the tv from the box

and fill it with my necessities. So, I guess I wold be carrying a box marked Sony. Doens't mean what is in there is a tv.

And, when the time arrived that I could, I would pay the store owner what I could to compensate for my necessities. I like to believe there are many good people struggling in a state of emergency right now who are doing the same thing.

[slackmaster]

70. To paraphrase Freud, sometimes a TV box has a TV in it

Don't try to tell me that SOME of those looters weren't actually stealing stuff other than necessities.

[Kerrytravelers]

124. I'm sure there are people taking things they shouldn't.

THere are always some people who choose to do the wrong thing.

But I like to give the benefit of the doubt when I can to people who are suffering, confused and desperate. I would hate to be judged if I were in that situation. I know that if I had a tv box, there would be no tv inside of it.

I would rather believe that the vast majority are tending to the needs of their chidren, the elderly and their neighbors rather than looking to get something for themselves. I know there are people who will do this... but not all of them.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

42. Reality check, Mongo

There's no electricity or running water in New Orleans now. This means no surefire ways of getting mass information out and no safe drinking water. If the Red Cross and National Guard are on their way, how are people supposed to know that? How are they supposed to know how long they have to hold out? How are they supposed to know where to go? And a lot of poor people don't trust ANYONE in a uniform.

Furthermore, it's 90 degrees in New Orleans today. I'm not going to fault anyone for doing anything they can to get hold of liquids that are safe to drink.

Japan is one of the most law-abiding countries on earth, and yet after the Kobe earthquake, people broke into stores and took bottled water. (Being Japanese, they stood in line in front of the broken windows and waited their turn to go in, but the point is, even in that population, where the crime rates for a whole year about the same as what a large U.S. city has in a week, people broke into stores.)

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LSK]

80. WHAT RED CROSS STATIONS????

WTF kinda stupid crap are you spewing???? This is an entire city that is now a lake!!! It will not be back to normal by next monday. I wouldnt be surprised if power and water is not restored for months. And thats cute that you can keep a months supply of food, but tell me what happens to it when water drowns your entire house???

THIS IS THE WORST DISASTER IN US HISTORY, SO PLEASE DONT GET ON YOUR HIGH HORSE LIKE YOU ARE JOE SURVIVOR EXPERT!!!

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ima_sinnic]

120. whatever. your holier-than-thou crap is getting old.

i see you are just another cheap repuke "libertarian" who thinks everybody should be a "rugged individualist" (read: selfish) and act just like you--and those who don't, the hell with'em. like I said below: so glad "you got yours," I am SO impressed -- NOT.

[LSK]

125. you try living on $10,000 per year

And then come back to us about how you picked up and moved your entire family to Beverly Hills. Ok??? I know that most welfare families have brand new SUVs and such, but I guess the New Orleans ones missed their last $1million welfare check. :sarcasm:

[Beaverhausen]

84. A lot of them had no choice but to stay

they had no means to get out of town to begin with.

[ima_sinnic]

113. geez, mr 3 posts, what a big-hearted guy

hopefully (for you) you don't live in my neighborhood because in your time of need I would find satisfaction in treating you the way you treat others. like scum. (and don't think you won't have a time of need--there is more than "things" or even "food" that people can NEED)

so glad to hear "you got yours"--shouldn't you be making the rounds of the internet forums to brag about how you're the biggest baddest he-man in town with your month's supply that nobody better even think about stealing?

and when you die, everybody will come to your funeral and talk about what a great guy you were to have the foresight to stock up for a whole fucking month. I'm SO impressed!

(oh and btw, conditions in NO are going to be bad for a lot longer than a month. I think you better get in a WHOLE LOT MORE STUFF.)

[DearAbby]

132. Why there is a Red Cross station on every corner...sort of like 7/11's

:sarcasm:

[Kerrytravelers]

136. What a wonderful neighbor you'd make.

Bet you love shrub's "ownership society."

What would you like on your tombstone?

[Kerrytravelers]

168. Ah Ha! He has been deleted!

The "ownership society" isn't very popular around these here parts!

[Boo Boo]

50. Tell ya what, Sport... Why don't you go down there and show 'em

how it's done. This board needs a Finger Smiley.

:finger:

[Kerrytravelers]

77. Here you go, Boo Boo -------->

http://www.clicksmilies.com/

[Boo Boo]

151. Thanks!

They got fingers out the wazoo!

:7

[shadowknows69]

52. I don't see a lot of people walking off with plasma TVs

to enjoy in their underwater houses. If I was in the watery hell some of these people were in then I'd be doing some "shopping" myself and the consequences be damned.

[Hugin]

61. Do they float?

I'm wondering if they'd be good as a (as the airlines put it)
"Flotation Device".

[shadowknows69]

106. I'm thinking

No

[Ron Mexico]

65. Your thread is a sight for sore eyes.

The "go, looters, go" mentality I've seen from some people has put me in the shittiest mood imaginable today. As I said in a different thread, I was homeless for seven months, and didn't use it as an excuse to steal.

[mongo]

115. Thank you

[oasis]

140. "'Go, looters, go' mentality"? If that's your take on this, no wonder your

in a shitty mood.

People who advocate the survival of other human beings get a thumbs up from me.

That's my take and I'm not in a shitty mood although I'm sad for the plight of others and their huge loss.

[AnnInLa]

71. thank you Mongo

the voice of reason!

[malta blue]

128. again, you can't be serious?

[ima_sinnic]

72. WTF is this obsession with looting?

who the hell CARES about "things" that are going to end up deep-sixed, "in Davy Jones locker," rusted, broken, USELESS? anybody who thinks that area is going to magically return to normal, when TVs, toasters, DVD players (which will somehow magically work after being submerged for god knows how long) etc. can be plugged in, is living in dreamland. any clothing is going to be ruined by fetid stinking oily water. so somebody got to own a TV for a few hours--BIG FUCKING DEAL. and by the way, all of it is INSURED, even the cash in the ATMs, so anybody who is crying over the loss of his "things," his "inventory," his "profit"--while thousands of people around him have died of drowning, plague, electrocution, shock, whatever--well, that person will eventually get his insurance money (that's the IMPORTANT thing, right? your whole family could have been killed in the storm, but at least you get reimbursed for your stinking inventory of small appliances that got stolen--FEEL BETTER?) so WHAT THE FUCK IS THE FUCKING PROBLEM??

yeah, right, they can sell that looted stuff to -- to --well, I don't know -- who COULD they sell it to? geesh!

and here's another clue, "pal," some of those people, maybe MANY of them, were hungry even before the storm hit. "only 24 hours"? maybe a lot more than that. take it from someone who's been there, not everyone has enough money every single day to eat at least one meal every 24 hours. and I will admit right here and now that I have been forced to steal on a very few occasions because I simply had NOTHING and was so hungry I could hardly walk.

you may want to sit with a shotgun guarding the ruins of your former abode filled with useless junk, but I think I'd have more important things on my mind--like finding a different place to live that's away from the coast and starting over. let the scavengers have it, if they need it, let them have it, there's actually plenty for all even in that situation.

[mongo]

86. It's insured so it's OK

So would it be Ok if I came over and burned down your house?

[ima_sinnic]

96. and your motive would be?

how is this even remotely analogous?
my point was--"things" don't mean a thing when human lives are at stake.

GET YOUR PRIORITIES STRAIGHT. TVs that are useless don't mean shit.

[mondo joe]

143. Those "things" impact human lives.

And there are real people who are the victims of looting.

[manic expression]

79. News flash!

(one not from FOX)

These people are:
1.) Getting necessities, or very near necessities (as in having something to wipe their asses with). This is more than justified.

2.) Left out in the could by the rich and the government, and now they are taking what they need and what they want, something that is routinely denied to them on a regular basis.

If they take food, water, alcohol (a valuable medical asset, by the way), there is NO PROBLEM with that. If they take toilet paper, there is NO PROBLEM with that. Any person with half a heart will agree with me on those points.

However, if they take TV's, computers, shoes and the like, that is NOT unreasonable, as they are forced through lack of money and lack of other people's empathy to be subjected to the brutality of the storm, they are completely within their rights to take this opportunity to help themselves and their families. That is my opinion, and I believe that anyone with a sense of real justice will agree with me on those points.

Keep in mind that no one reached out a helping hand to those who could not leave before the storm, and then those who are subjected to it are expected to simply "take it", and leave the fortunate people's possessions alone? Please!

Try not to be judgmental of disaster-survivors while you sit in safety. :eyes:

[Jersey Devil]

92. Well, I simply cannot argue with this

It is too screwy for me to deal with.

[manic expression]

95. Please try

I'd like to hear your thoughts.

[Jersey Devil]

104. Well, here goes

I empathize with those who feel they must steal to get food or water but I do not condone it and think it must stop or it will lead to utter chaos. Plus, I do not want to see a situation develop where truly helpless people are getting shot for looting, a situation which will soon develop if it does not stop.

But your suggestion that it is OK to steal TVs, electronic equipment, etc., because somehow these people are entitled to "help their families" and somehow get even with those who did not help them evacuate is bizarre.

[manic expression]

178. Well,

we definitely agree with the first part: that people have the right to survive and live with at least reasonable luxury (as in having toilet paper, eating 3 times a day).

However, I simply find it ridiculous that those who *can* leave do so, while those who *cannot* leave, and who are also very much deprived in everyday life, are forced to stay in a hurricane and expected to not take what is unfairly denied to them. It would be so easy for the government to say: "If you have an extra seat in your car, take someone who cannot afford to leave". Instead, they do nothing, and leave those people in the cold to fend for themselves; I say, those who are left in the cold are not unjustified in taking (yes, stealing) things that will help them and their families in life.

At any rate, thanks for sharing your opinion.

[Ron Mexico]

99. Question

What would be an example of unacceptable looting? If I'm to accept that anyone with half a heart or a "real sense of justice" has to agree with you, I can't think of any theft by a poor person that isn't justified, and it shouldn't take a natural disaster for your points to be valid. Based on what you wrote, if I'm to accept it, I should be correct in your supporting breaking and entering jobs - of your home and mine - committed by anyone who is poor.

In fact, since through lack of money and empathy they can't feed themselves and their families properly, wouldn't any murder of a "fortunate" person committed during such a theft be justifiable as well? Self-defense?

No offense, but I truly believe that the sort of thought process I read in your post is one of the reasons why people listen to any assbag who promises tax cuts, as we're the party viewed as justifying any "theft" of taxpayer dollars for our vision. I know you mean well and your intentions are honorable, but your words horrify me. I look at your post and can't see a single reason for a poor person not to steal. Not one.

[Guaranteed]

103. Right. I'm not even sure what the hurricane has to do with

this point of view.

[manic expression]

179. OK...

For example, I am not in favor of wanton piracy. I am in favor of a crew taking control of a ship from an unfair captain for good reasons. There is a difference, no?

Murder is completely different from getting pretty petty luxuries that are otherwise inaccessible to those who have been thrown out to the storm. I feel that comparison misses the point.

This sort of thought process leads to CEO's and insanely-paid people (many of whom are criminals, by the way), getting taxed a fair amount to fund schools, hospitals, welfare and other worthy causes. This thought process is the reason many peasants in Latin America own the land they work on instead of being serfs; or how so many people can now see a doctor, regardless of how much money is in their pocket at the time.

I may seem zealous, but when I see videos of poor people (MANY of them black) wading through water, who are otherwise deprived of decent living, with their possessions possibly completely destroyed, with their needs hanging in the balance... I cannot help but think that they deserve that which is unfairly denied to them. Especially when no one took the thought to fit maybe a few extra families in the fleeing cars, or try to evacuate as many of those people as possible.

Just my opinion.

[Ron Mexico]

198. Dupe, delete

[Ron Mexico]

199. Dupe, delete

[Ron Mexico]

200. Dupe, delete

[Ron Mexico]

201. And I feel

that using the storm as an excuse to get back at the world and grab those laptops you couldn't afford the day before is one of the lower things you can do.

I have been in the aftermath of a Florida hurricane and I have been homeless. Never once did I consider theft. I would steal food to keep me and my wife alive if necessary, but once the question goes beyond pure survival you've lost my support.

Funny - yesterday I was trying to convince people that not all (or even the majority) of the looters are just taking food, and today I'm listening to people tell me that theft is okay because of social injustice. Well, if that's the case, I was an idiot for not stealing everything in sight when I was living in a city shelter.

[manic expression]

204. However,

They still can't afford those laptops, and probably never will.

You did commit theft, although it was more than justified. At any rate, would you steal toilet paper for some comfort? That is not pure survival. Food itself is not pure survival, as people can live for days without food. What I'm saying is that people who are deprived and left to the mercy of a storm are not being unreasonable for taking both necessities and a little more.

The thing is that you were in a shelter, and you were receiving a fair amount. These people are not receiving anything.

[eridani]

191. In the event of no natural disaster, looting is unacceptable, period. n/t

[Guaranteed]

100. It sounds as if you're just saying that the rule of law is out the window.

If people take what you're saying to heart, we're going to start seeing roaming gangs- pirates, I guess they'd be- stealing from, beating up, and probably even killing people. Poor people stealing from each other.

What you're saying is that we ought to abandon any sense of rule of law and just have a free for all. Anarchy, basically.

If you're wanting things to get better there in New Orleans, that's the last thing we need in this situation.

We need to maintain our civility and stay calm. Not turn into animals.

[Qibing Zero]

161. Hey, nothing wrong with a little progressive thinking, right?

Think of it as questioning the existance of the law rather than saying lets abolish all law. I'm not sure I agree completely, but I certainly will not be judging those people. I guess that's why I could never be in a position of 'upholding the law'. There IS a difference between law and order, despite what people want you to believe. ;)

[Guaranteed]

186. Not a matter of judgment. It's a matter of working together

to get things done.

It's keeping people from fighting each other over what they need and finding a way to do what is best for everyone.

This anarchy idea isn't "progressive" at all. Progressives work together toward a common goal. They don't split up to the individual level and leave every man for himself.

[DearAbby]

144. Worry about material objects..while thousands are fighting for their lives

who the hell cares about tv's?

[Ron Mexico]

89. I nominated this one.

I've been a member of DU for four months or so and haven't nominated a thread yet, but I am really fucking tired of being told that looting is okay. REALLY fucking tired of it. Mongo, not that there's much prestige involved, but congratulations on getting my first nomination.

There are aid stations and shelters down there. You can get MREs at the Superdome. I don't give a damn how hungry these people are, theft is not justified. Call me evil if you want, but be sure to give me your address and security code if I lose my job, because as long as hunger justifies theft I want to restrict my stealing to those who think that way.

[LSK]

94. there are NOT aid stations everywhere

And this hurricane did not hit within 2 blocks of the Superdome only. It hit an area of hundreds of square miles. GO LOOK AT A MAP PLEASE.

[Ron Mexico]

109. Many thanks.

Based on reports I've heard and images I've seen, I thought hotels, high schools and other buildings were being used, but now I see that the Superdome is the only place victims can go. Thanks for clearing this up for me.

[VOX]

119. Even the Superdome is being evacuated. n/t

[VolcanoJen]

97. Someone threw himself to his death at the Superdome today...

... the toilets are overflowing, the food scarce, the heat unbearable, and the water waist-deep just outside.

Where are these idealized aid stations and shelters that you speak of?

[Ron Mexico]

107. Hotels, high schools,

and other buildings are being used. Sure, not enough yet, but I can't justify theft based on anything I've seen or heard.

If theft by the poor is justified here, why is a natural disaster necessary to justify theft anyway? It's no secret that government ignores a lot of the poor, so why shouldn't they be able to loot whenever they're not getting enough to eat?

[VolcanoJen]

108. I'm certainly not justifying the theft of non-essential items here.

I was making no such argument.

But I'm curious as to these hotels, high schools and other buildings that you know about.

[Ron Mexico]

117. So food only?

I just got done replying to someone who justified every bit of theft down there. I wonder what the hurricane has to do with it, as poverty and desperation is not solely contingent on natural disasters. When my house got broken into, my sister-in-law gave me the same speech (they're probably poor, so they need this more than you), and I couldn't afford to replace what is lost, so I have NO sympathy for thieves under any circumstances.

As far as hotels in New Orleans, I've seen shots of people being housed in lobbies in a lot of the media slide shows, one of which is at the New York Times ( illegal codepop_me_up2('http://www.nytimes.com/packages/khtml/2005/08/30/national/20050830_STORM_FEATURE.html', '20050830_STORM_FEATURE', 'width=600,height=475,scrollbars=yes,toolbars=no,resizable=yes'), which is reachable from the front page under the .

As for less-populated areas, the reports I get are from my boss, who used to live down there. His high school is being used as a shelter, as are a lot of other public buildings that withstood the pounding. It's standard procedure; I stayed in a Cape Cod high school for three days in the 1970's when Hurricane Belle came calling.

[LSK]

127. why would you expect these buildings to have supplies

These places do not have power or water either. Food can last how long there?? A few days??? And thats even if you can get to downtown New Orleans. This disaster stretches hundreds of miles.

[Ron Mexico]

147. So no reason not to

just steal, then. Steal anything of value because food is valuable and electronics can be pawned for cash. What the hell, things aren't going so well, so steal.

Not directed at you, but I have to say it: I can't help but wonder why a hurricane is necessary to justify theft. It's no real secret that the government doesn't cover everyone and that some poor people have no other recourse, so why don't I see their instances of theft supported here? The guys who broke into my house and took everything they could carry were simply exacting justice, weren't they?

If I ran a store down there I would be giving away food to the hungry. However, if someone attempted to steal from me I'd want him arrested. If lack of equality or hard times can justify lawlessness in so many people's eyes, I just give up.

[LSK]

150. was your house broken into during a national disaster???

Were there no stores open for 100 miles, was there no sign of civilization?? Did your home become a swampland??? Was it next to impossible to travel further than a block because no cars worked and you didnt have a boat???

I dont see how the two situations are relevant.

[Ron Mexico]

153. I don't see how they aren't.

My house was broken into by two homeless guys who had no money and no food. Would a natural disaster justify their actions in your eyes?

[Rhiannon12866]

202. I heard on the news that a great many people, carrying what they could,

Started walking on the road out of town, then finally sat down in the blazing sun, waiting for rescue. At the end of the day, when no one came, they headed back to town, in the direction of the Superdome, the shelter of last resort. They're evacuating that God-forsaken hell hole, those on ventilators and dialysis first. And these people really should be in hospitals, not in a filthy, sweltering, crowded place. But they had no where else to go.;(

[Sapphire Blue]

90. BS like this inspires me to use the 'ignore' & 'hide thread' features

... (AKA BS Deflectors) available on DU.

[Swamp Rat]

98. Please stop these kinds of threads! ... It is NOT helping us! n/t

:(

[malta blue]

129. Damn right Swamp Rat.

How are you all doing down there? Did you hear from your mom?

[Swamp Rat]

131. No. I am worried sick.

and my poor dogs :cry:

[malta blue]

135. We are all thinking about you

I hope you hear something soon. Keeping you in our thoughts and prayers...
:cry:

[benburch]

102. This is why you shoot looters. nt

[Guaranteed]

111. Brockman: Professor....would you say it's time for our viewers to crack

each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

Professor: Yes I would, Kent.

[mvd]

112. If someone's about to die from food or thirst..

I don't think we can fault them for looting.

[Gormy Cuss]

175. It would be hard to argue otherwise

It's hard to justify shooting looters either. The moral middle ground seems to be the problem here: what about looters who are not yet starving?

If I were stucking in a hot humid city with rising waters after a day of listening to the wind try to rip apart my house, I'd be mighty frustrated and want to strike back. I would guess this is the sort of justification most people make who aren't starving but are afraid because their world has been turned upside down? Even if the house is still standing, they have no running water or electricity and are not likely to have any income for some time. What people steal is often irrational and borne out of this frustration. These are for the most part good people who are terribly stressed. Does that make it right? Not in my mind. Neither does stealing more food than your family needs for a few days, but looters who have the opportunity may not stop at what they need, because of the hysteria of the situation. I believe this is why discouraging looting is important in disasters. People don't want to do it, but without a strong motivation not to do so, the frustration wins out.
I don't think I'd put most of them in jail either. Caught stealing $25 worth of groceries to me would be stress-related, as would stealing watches or a TV when the person isn't normally known to be a criminal. For society overall, it's best to slap the wrist and let it go. Most of them will feel guilty enough for breaking their own ethics.

[SemperEadem]

116. Looters...

There is no justification for entering someone's home and stealing their belongings--I don't care what the circumstances. The circumstances don't entitle one to ignore the law and help themselves to that which doesn't belong to them.

[VOX]

122. Now, there's the compassion that separates us from right-wingers!

"Let's round up every one of 'em, and execute 'em **all**. Yee-haw!"
:sarcasm:

[SemperEadem]

126. so, you don't mind someone taking your computer

from your home while a hurricane is blowing outside? Good for you.

[VOX]

146. If they wanted my computer that badly, they could bleeping have it!

If I have anything a desperate soul trying to survive needed or wanted, chances are I'd give it to them.

Now, if they tried to harm me or my family in any way, **then** they'd have something to regret.

[VOX]

148. I see you edited your post. No more references to specific actions...

Such as shooting looters.

Good for you. :thumbsup:

[MadHound]

134. Oh give me a break friend

You are sitting cool and comfy behind your keyboard, moralizing how people should behave after having gone through a hurricane, seen death and total destruction wrought on your city, and realizing that, as the waters rise, your position vis-a-vis survival is iffy at best. And you're saying that people shouldn't be looting:eyes:

As far as the Red Cross goes, they're still trying to get into the city, get supplies into the city, and get organized in the city. Given the conditions there, it is going to be a couple of days at least before the Red Cross can start distributing food to those left in NO. Meanwhile, the National Guard is not only facing the same problems as the Red Cross, they are also trying to rescue people and prevent the levees from completely collapsing and wreaking further damage.

Thus the people left in NO are left, for the large part, on their own, to fend for themselves. Let's see, perhaps they did prepare, stocked up plenty of food and water, only to see it disappear when that twenty foot storm surge blasted through. Or perhaps they were poor and forced to go to the Supredome. Well, all of those folks weren't allowing people to bring in stockpiles of supplies, only the bare neccesseties. Or perhaps they had stockpiled stuff, only to watch their house, their home collapse completely.

Look friend, the vast majority of those looters are in survival mode, OK. And when you're living in hell, with no relief in sight, you are going to do what you have to do in order to survivel. What, you would rather these people be good little law abiding citizens and sit there and starve to death. Hey, I thought that liberals were supposed to be the understanding and compassionate ones. Reading these threads today, I find out that exceptions to that rule apparently abound.

Tell you what friend, let's paradrop you right into the middle of Bourbon St. with exactly the same equipment most of the survivors in NO have, the clothes on your back, and see how you fare. My bet is that you'll be snatching and grabbing for food and supplies within 24 hours.

Give it a fucking break friend, and show some compassion and humanity while you're at it.

[Swamp Rat]

152. thank you... my mom is already there in the Quarter

I am sick worried about her. why are DUers so fucking concerned about PROPERTY and not LIVES?!?

god fucking damn! :puke:

[Kerrytravelers]

154. What saddens me if the judgement thrown at these people.

I don't know the situation these people found themselves in. But, I can tell you, as someone who has been through some major California earthquakes, being in a disaster places people in decision making positions they haven't had time to prepare for. You can be as prepared as you want to be, but the natural disaster can wipe out all your supplies. Then what do you do?

I also understand that many shelters have been filling up and turned people away. I did not write down when I heard this, but flipping through the news, both on the tv and the radio, I heard this mentioned. I don't know if those were factual reports, but the people we are now armchair judging may have heard that and felt they stood no chance to find shelter.

Will there be people who take advantage of his? Sure. There always are. Unfortuanatly, the only ones that ever get media mention are the poor. There will be plenty of insurance companies who will bilk people and shame artists who take advantage of confused and desperate people in a time of crisis. It happened in Flordia on more than one occassion after the hurricanes there.

People who are taking survival necessities and good to care for their family (such as medicines, diapers, formulas, etc.) are simply trying to care for people. If there were Red Cross stations availalble for help, most people would just go there. The RC is still very busy trying to get themselves organized.

There is also still a very large and looming threat of the leevys breaking and additional flooding to occur. The people who are stranded may be trying to prepare for this event- now they have a better idea of what to prepare for.

I have been to New Orleans and the surrounding area. There are some pretty remote locals. Many of these people may not have been adequately warned and explained to about what would most likely occur. We must remember that the less economically advantages someone is, the less access they generally have to tv, the radio and the internet. They simply may have been overwhelmed by the extreme nature of this storm. On this, I am simply suggesting. I have no links to provide for proof to this thought.

Another thought occurred to me. Some people may be taking tvs in the hopes of finding some place to plug it in and get the news and commentary about what to do next. They may also be taking radios for the same reason. Notice, I did not mention dvds, jewerly nd other things posters here have claimed. I am not defending that- only the means of communication. They may not realize that there will be no place to plug it in or that it may be quite some time before electricity is restored to the city.

I guess I am just surprised that more people aren't saddened by the condition of the poor during this time of natureal disaster.

[MadHound]

156. Having spent two years poor, homeless and jobless in my youth

I know exactly why these people are taking consumer goods. The first reason is immediate. They can't find food, so they are hoping to do a deal, a TV for a case of beef jerky, or some such swap. Barter economy.

The second reason is a bit more long term. Most of these people were poor before the storm, and had no insurance. Now they have been completely wiped out by the storm, what little they did have is gone. And they realize that they have to somehow pick themselves up and rebuild their lives. So, snatch a TV, put it up in the attic until all is clear, and then go sell it. Hey, it just might pay for that new wardrobe of clothes, you know, a couple pair of jeans, some undies, and a couple of T-shirts.

I don't condone what these people are doing, but neither do I begrudge them their ill gotten goods. Face it, all of these consumer items were going to be trashed anyway. You can't keep that two year warranty on a 32" plasma TV after it has been dunked in water a couple of times. All of those goods were/are destined for an insurance write off. Now, the store owner will still get the insurance money, and some poor soul has a miniscule stash of cash with which they can try to rebuild their life.

[liberalitch]

139. Many poor people endure such tragedy without EVER stealing from anyone....

Do the victims deserve to get preyed upon?

[Kerrytravelers]

157. I think you are responding to me.

I wouldn't advocate going into a neigbor's home and stealing their family heirlooms. As I specified, survival necessities, such as food and medicines. And even then, this thread has been maily about going into stores... or ore lilely swimming into stores and taking what you need to survive.

We are all jumping to conclusions. Most people are honest. I'm sure people will return communication items they needed and pay what they can for the food. I would. And I like to think you would, too.

While there are some posters who want to completly abandon the rule of law, the majority if the posts here have specified that taking necessities to live is quite different than masterminding a jewerly heist.

We can't judge the whole group by the innappropriate actions of a few.

[oasis]

142. La. Gov. Blanco just said "There is no FOOD to be had". Good thing people

didn't wait for that announcement.

[William Bloode]

149. If they are stealing food and water, do it without shame.

If they are stealing a bit of alcohol, more power too them. After the hell they have been and are still going through they might need a drink. If they might take a few things other from the store thats o.k. with me too.

The poor and needy were abandoned to this hell, when those in charge should have done everything available to get them to safety. So do what it takes to make ya feel better, as long as it does not physically harm anyone else.

And for those who don't have a clue. Find a Red Cross, or whatever. I am quite sure in this mess they have no where near the supplies to fulfill needs. People should do what it takes to survive.

I know if it was me and i was in that situation of desperation and had to help my family. I would not have a problem with a bit of violence if thats what it took to provide.

[Swamp Rat]

155. Damn straight bro!

I could use a joint, some beer, and 20 lbs of crawfish right now.

I don't give a fuck if someone breaks into my home - or what's left of it - to "steal" water and canned food. If I had beer or any drugs in my house, I would want "looters" to take that too, if it helped their miserable situation... of course, I wouldn't want them to steal my art or musical instruments, but WHO GIVES A FUCK ABOUT MATERIAL POSSESSIONS?!!!

I just want my mom to live, and my dogs... all of whom are there right now. :cry:

PS Sorry for giving you a hard time about the rebel flag a few months back. :pals:

[Kerrytravelers]

159. Swamprat, I was thinking about you the past few days.

I'm so glad you are ok and I will be praying for the safty of your mother and beloved dogs.

Take care, friend.

kt

[Swamp Rat]

166. thanks n/t

[William Bloode]

167. Thanks brutha,

Appology appreciated, but not neccesary. Just glad to know your o.k. I felt so bad seeing you post about your worry for your mother, animals and you neighbours.

Wish i could send send you a nice oz of this fine indica i have sitting around to help alleviate your overly exerted mind.

Best wishes from a Rebel flag flyin' fool :D

[nomatrix]

158. From someone who has been through a hurricane

I will say, when you close that door to your home, deep down you know the worst can happen to your possessions. If someone needs what is inside to survive, it doesn't matter whether the wind, rain, tornado, etc. made it disappear, gone is gone.

My dear friends lost everything in a tornado in Kansas, followed by a fire to the remaining structure. Eventually they moved to Homestead, FL. to ride out Andrew with 4 adults, and 3 Great Danes crammed into a hall closet when the roof flew off.

When I asked them how they are holding up, they said,

"You think the 1st time it's hard to lose everything, but you come to find it's the sentimental things, like baby pictures, and people you loved (who left this earth) that you have treasured memories of, those things make you sad. Everything else prepares you for the next event you think you'd never survive, but do. That gives you the experience to help others get through it. You know, material things just don't matter when the roof flies off and you are huddled with those you love wondering if you'll ever see them again."

They lived in a camper, next to their shell of a home, slept with a gun, while it was renovated. Would they use it?

"People desperate enough to come into destruction, looking for anything to pawn, are desperate enough to kill you in your sleep. We don't want to die when they find out we've got less than they do. A gun reasons with the unreasonable."

A piece of advice they gave me back then. Get a small out of town insurance company. When everyone was waiting for State Farm, Allstate, etc. to pay up, they had the money on the 1st few days. You don't have to wait in line.

Do I agree with looting? I couldn't live with myself.
That's what is really important. No matter what side you fall on, walk in someone else's shoes. Poverty is not as rampant in the US as other countries.

Here is a chance to do something good for someone else. Maybe some who were left behind, had husbands/wives in the service in Iraq and were already suffering. Who knows. By the same token, if you have something to give to help these people in their time of need, let go of it. You will find the dividends pay handsomely to your well-being.

Looters have to live with what they do. I just hope they and everyone else, survives this tragedy.

[lildreamer316]

160. IT"S JUST STUFF.

GET A GRIP.
You've never had to wonder where your next meal is coming from have you?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

163. Look at all those sitting comfortably at home in front of their computers

in cool, clean conditions condemning people who are living through hell. Wow.

[tom_paine]

165. I agree, Mongo

I did make a post on another thread regarding how the Busheviks' first priorities are to crsuh the citizenry, bu I hope that was not interpreted as a tacit agreement with looting.

You are correct in what you say, and in some regards I am a little ashamed of my previous post in which I may have sounded like one of the rationalizers.

[AngryOldDem]

169. I agree, Mongo

And, I think people are missing your main point, but, hey, anything for argument's sake.

Certainly if one's very survival is at stake, one's life should be put before any considerations such as the law. Therefore, if someone were to take the basic articles of survival such as food and water, it is understandable. UNFORTUNATELY (and this is the important part here), others are all-too-willing to use the above as an excuse to steal anything -- especially those valuables that they probably could not otherwise afford. They are taking advantage of the misery of others to justify their own despicable behavior.

In other words, as you said, they are being "opportunistic."

If they can find the time to loot, they can just as well find the time to legitimately get the "help" they need.

[Pithlet]

209. What help?!

"If they can find the time to loot, they can just as well find the time to legitimately get the "help" they need."

It is statements like that that have pissed me off more than I've ever been pissed off on DU. To even put help in quote like that. As if they're just whooping it up and enjoying themselves down there.

[donheld]

171. You want to talk about looting go here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4511305&mesg_id=4514900

[mopinko]

184. MONGO!! YOU OF ALL PEOPLE!!!!

making a living on people's base instincts, criticizing people for basic survival instincts. you fucking hypocrite, you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

185. Yes, Mongo, glad to see you get it

I'm sorry I didn't see this thread earlier. But you nailed it. Stealing is stealing, regardless of the circumstances. I can understand the folks stealing food and water. But looting a WalMart and stealing beer? That is just plain wrong.

[Mr_Spock]

187. "Mongo angry now"

Sorry, I got nothing to sy about this topic for the most part - except that I'm not in the least surprised, so why is anybody else? :shrug:

[VolcanoJen]

189. Reports say law enforcement is looting, too.

Relevant to the conversation, and a whole new can of worms...

'Times-Picayune' Announces New Home--in Houma--and Reports Looting by Cops and Firemen - Editor & Publisher

At the Times-Picayune web site, Mike Perlstein and Brian Thevenot wrote that at a Wal-Mart on Tchoupitoulas Street, mass looting broke out after a giveaway of supplies was announced at that location.

While some did indeed carry away food and essentials, others "cleared out jewelry racks and carted out computers, TVs and appliances on handtrucks. Some officers joined in taking whatever they could, including one New Orleans cop who loaded a shopping cart with a compact computer and a 27-inch flat screen television.

<<<<<< snip >>>>>>>

"The police got all the best stuff. They’re crookeder than us," one man said. Most officers, though, simply stood by powerless against the tide of law breakers.

One veteran officer said, "It’s like this everywhere in the city. This tiny number of cops can’t do anything about this. It’s wide open."

Some groups, the reporters wrote, "organized themselves into assembly lines to more efficiently cart off goods. Inside the store, one woman was stocking up on make-up. She said she took comfort in watching police load up their own carts. 'It must be legal,' she said. 'The police are here taking stuff, too.'"

[mvd]

205. I don't see how we can blame people for looting..

under these circumstances, even though I don't condone it for more than necessary items. Right now, I just want people safe.

[mvd]

214. BTW

I don't think there's a firm list of what's a necessity right now, with a lack of transportation and housing.

[mixedview]

193. Agree. Finally, some reason.

The type of looting going on isn't just for "basics". Please. Most of the looters are greedily taking as much as they could, with complete disregard for their fellow citizen/community member who owns the small business. There is no way to justify this behavior.

OT: yet another reason to support the second amendment.

[ecstatic]

206. Tell me---which stores are still open for business?

I don't even think that people with the means and desire to pay can do so right now, because NO STORES ARE OPEN. Catch a clue!

[Zenlitened]

208. Wow. Stupidest post of the day.

Yeah, taking food and water when you're on Day 3 without -- goodness, gracious how terrible. :eyes:

[Pithlet]

212. It's not the only one like it.

I've truly never been as disgusted about anything I've seen on DU. Never. I know that part of it is I'm so angered at the situation. But nothing excuses the attitudes I've been seing about the stranded and helpless victims in New Orleans.

[gate of the sun]

210. What difference does it make if the stuff will be under water or

destroyed later anyway...when they come in to bulldoze the stores that are wrecked do you think they are going to take the 12 packs of beer out and hand them over to the owner of the store?????It's ridiculous. This is a real non-issue in my book......even the stupid computers or clothes whatever it's all garbage now anyway. If and it's a big if people are using violence against one another or hurting each other that's something to concern ourselves with....if I was in NO I'd want a goddamn beer while I'm waiting for someone to get me out of there.....TOO much attention is being given to this subject.....on the other hand the lack of response and emergency supplies etc.....now that's a story I want to talk about.

[Name removed]

211. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wizard777]

213. What state are they going to walk to? There is NO RC or NG in N.O.

The media is more mobile than residents and even the media cannot find them.

Survival Items

1) Food
2) Liquids (beer as as last resort or to maintain physical addiction)
3) Clothing
4) Battery operated Radios or Tv's (Inward communications from outside)
5) Propane Charcoal and grills (cooking)
6) Books, game, and misc. toys as a distraction to Cabin Fever

[jlseagull]

216. If I owned a small electronics / computer store...

...and it wasn't underwater but still in the evac zone...I would be sitting on the roof in a lawnchair with my AR15, an umbrella, and a bullhorn. Restarting a capital-intensive, low-margin business from scratch (just try waiting for the government-sponsored insurance check to come, I'll see you in a year still waiting) would be nigh impossible.

If I had saleable merchandise, you betcha I would be out there protecting it with a firearm.

[Technowitch]

217. Locking

This has gone in a really inappropriate direction.

Technowitch
DU Moderator