What we can all agree on regarding "LOOTING"

[alcibiades_mystery]

There's certainly something compelling about the looting phenomenon we're seeing in New Orleans - however big or small it may be, and however correctly or incorrectly the media represents it. The harsh (and sadly predictable and repetitive) arguments it has engendered on these boards is testament to its power to strike a chord in our kind of society. I'll get to more of this later, depending on responses. For now, I want to set out a few propositions that I think we can all assent to. Let me know if I'm wrong:

1) Those in a disaster zone will focus on survival, by dint of instinct for self-preservation.
2) Those in a disaster zone must make best efforts to effect this survival without breaching the rights of others. Example: People should try to go through legitimate aid stations for needed supplies.
3) If survival outweighs certain rights of others that are not themselves faced with survival as an immediate threat, then in these restricted cases, survival trumps those rights. Example: If trying to reach an aid station would be more dangerous to survival than acquiring needed supplies from a closed supermarket, then the rights of the supermarket owners are trumped by the right to survive of those in need. However, one could not kill another person to gain that person's supplies, since this would involve an immediate threat to another's survival, whereas the supermarket owners do not face an immediate threat.
4) Acquisition of non-needed supplies is wrong. Example: Jewelry or iPods are not needed for survival. One might make exceptions for technically non-needed supplies that have taken on a form of necessity due to habitual use for necessary functions, like toilet paper or tampons (one would imagine that much of the toilet paper in the disaster zone is soaked through and useless).

I think we can all agree on these propositions, wherever we might stand on the general phenomenon. So, I ask humbly, could we please stop throwing these points back and forth as if they hadn't been brought up 35,000 times in the last two days? If we must talk about the looting, whether from the I'll-Defend-Anything infant mode or the Order-Above-All-Else daddy mode, could we at the very least find something more interesting about it than these redundant assaults on an expired equine?

[msongs]

1. food and water yes. TVs not gonna get on the rescue boat n/t

[alcibiades_mystery]

2. Uh, yeah

That's the point. We can all agree on that. So maybe we should stop bothering to express it every three minutes.

[madeline_con]

10. Oh, come on...

There's posters who aren't here yet who will have to hash it out at 3AM. ;)

[krkaufman]

19. Ah, yes, the Post Police gun down another alphabetic looter.

[alcibiades_mystery]

22. LOL...love the metaphor

Sorry. Not trying to be the "post police." I'm making a plea that the same tired arguments can be retired if we reach some common ground on them. By no means am I attempting to restrict posting, nor would I have the power to enforce such a restriction. This is a plea first and foremost, so your metaphor is a bit off, if skillful.

[krkaufman]

25. No prob, but, as an observer...

... the post doesn't come across as a "plea", from my perspective. Both the subject ("Uh, yeah") and the closing ("So maybe we should stop bothering to express it every three minutes.") come across as sarcastic & agressive (thus the "police" feel) versus helpful and guiding (ala the Red Cross).

Besides, I just popped in to DU and this was the first thread I started reading, so NONE of the looting perspectives were old hat to me, making the rebuke stand-out a bit. I accept that perhaps my post-trigger was a hair itchy.

One person's opinion.

Regards.

[alcibiades_mystery]

32. Adjustment then

An exasperated plea.

Still no desire to restrict, nor no power to do so.

cheers.

[info being]

45. I don't agree on that.

A TV will get you a hundred bucks down the road and some food or shelter. When you're displaced and have nothing, anything is something.

[madeline_con]

7. Seconded...

:kick:

[crispini]

3. Here ya go!

:P

[alcibiades_mystery]

4. The shape of GD for the last five hours

;-)

[crispini]

6. I have at least 35 threads hidden now.

It's greatly enhancing my GD experience.

[KittyWampus]

20. ohhhhhh, i forgot hide thread option.... viola!

:)

[krkaufman]

21. Thanks for the suggestion. n/t

[fishnfla]

30. my locked thread option is loaded too

oy!

[meisje]

5. Shoot on sight

if caught taking non-food items.

[fob]

9. Like a radio and batteries?

Harsh man, harsh.

[NoQuarter]

14. toilet paper included?

[alcibiades_mystery]

15. Feel better now?

You've certainly demonstrated yourself to be stern, strong, muscular, and effective. Congratulations.

How about toilet paper? Would you really kill a person for grabbing a 12-pack of Charmin? Seriously?

[chicagiana]

27. But with rubber bullets!!!!

How do you know it's not THEIR TV that they are moving to another location??? Thats the really hard part.

Of course, if they are coming out of Best Buy, well than it's kinda obvious.

I do agree with you that you have to get a little hard handed to ensure civil order in an emergency situation. It's far easier to prevent a riot than it is to start one.

[fob]

8. That big businesses (like Mal-Wart) WILL be "bailed out" even if

they have insurance which covers a complete loss, so even if someone does take a "non-needed" supply it matters not in this realm. Also that lady on MSNBC who keeps harping on the "looters" and "looting" and interviewing other tough-talking types with their "we ain't gonna tolerate looting" crap when there is so much else that is more important should be stricken with laryngitis and a soul.

Beyond those two things, it's all grey area, imo.


Moral of the story: Leave the Mom & Pop type places alone, use no violence, and go for the staples first, then the staplers :evilgrin:

[madeline_con]

13. Thay can't all make it to Wally World...

so Mom & Pop places will be ransacked.

[fob]

24. Agreed. But I was stating MY stance, not what may really be going on.

[Gormy Cuss]

11. Is there someway this could be cross-posted to all the looting threads?

The arguments are really devolving to extremism with no consideration of shades of gray.

As someone who has been slugged several times by absolutists when I tried to interject on looting threads, thank you for trying to remind us all of the common ground. Looting isn't the important issue right now, it's people's very lives.

[Squatch]

12. Looting just creates more victims.

So, somebody doesn't make it to the 'looting spree' in time and all the Ho Hos and Wonderbread are gone. They're in a survival situation, too. What moral scale will you apply to them? Will they be allowed to murder for food?

I think your list of 4 items above should be part of the FEMA disaster prep package. Just load up a C-130 and drop them over the city as "rules to follow in a place devoid of the rule of law".

[alcibiades_mystery]

18. "Will they be allowed to murder for food"?

See Proposition 3, explicitly.

So I take it you don't agree? Could you be more specific?

[Frances]

16. I saw a movie many years ago set in California

Russia had accidentally exploded a nuclear bomb here. In the movie a family has just packed up their car to go camping. The father of the family realizes that there will be chaos so he takes his family deep into the woods to hide until law and order can be restored.

On the way to a hiding place, the father tries to persuade some people in a camper that they should hide too, but the people are too naive to believe that they are in any danger. Later some men come into the camper and kill the parents and take turns raping the daughter.

This movie made a huge impression on me. When people know that there is no law enforcement, things can get ugly.

That's why I blame Bush. He should have sent hundreds of National Guardsmen to New Orleans to help with rescue efforts and to let the people know that there would be law enforcement.

[Terran]

23. That sounds familiar...

Is this it?

[Frances]

34. Yes, this is the movie I was thinking of

I googled it and read a long summary. I can't believe that I remembered so much of it after all of these years.

How did you know this was the movie I had in mind? It's OLD!

[Terran]

40. Yeah, from 1962

I don't know how I knew, I guess you just gave a good description of the plot. I think I only ever saw it once when I was a kid, but it must have made a big impression on me.

[Frances]

46. I really appreciate your remembering the title

I think that people really would act pretty much the way the people in the movie did in that kind of situation.

[Terran]

47. Actually I couldn't recall the title

but I remembered Ray Milland was in it so I googled his filmography and found it that way. But glad to help out. My opinion is, people would probably be even worse than what was depicted in that film.

[Frances]

49. I have been reading about New Orleans today

and I think that Bush should be impeached for incompetence.

It is inexcusable that 4 years after 9/11, this government is doing such a lousy job with a major disaster.

I don't understand how a single person could have any faith whatsoever that this administration can handle anything without messing it up:

(1) Bush turned a surplus into a deficit

(2) Bush ignored Clinton's warning about Osama bin Laden

(3) Bush let Osama bin Laden off the hook by diverting our forces to Iraq

(4) Bush totally bungled the occupation of Iraq--in fact, he is handling New Orleans with exactly the same game plan, which is to make sure his fat cat oil friends profit from the mess he has created

[chicagiana]

29. There are immoral people and moral people ...

For some, an inability to follow civil rules is inherent. They must be contained in prisons for the protection of society.

Others are naturaly inclined to behave in ways that are conducive to civil order. The presence of law enforcement makes no difference to their behavior.

Than there are the class of people who's morality is strictly based on the possibility of being caught and punished. Without civil authority, these normally civil seeming people will turn rampant. These are your looters.

It's been 24 hours people. How many people here don't have some crappy food items in your house that you normally wouldn't eat but you will be perfectly delighted to consume when ravaged by hunger???

And of course, there are the "followers" who simply go along with the crowd. And no doubt, those that see the looting and believe that the availability of goods and services will dry up so the participate as well.

The moral of the story is you don't allow looting at all. I personally believe that rubber bullets would get the point home. But if it was necessary to cap people raiding the local jewelry store to get the point home, it is probably for the good in the long run.

I was once a person who objected to shooting a home intruder. Now I believe that the shooting and death of home intruders is for the greater good of society. Don't lament the injury of people who are doing shit they know they're not supposed to be doing. You'll only encourage the sociopaths.

[Frances]

33. Google Panic in the Year Zero

to see what life can be like without law. I think that for most people survival is the number one issue.

[Pithlet]

35. Their homes are gone

In response to this: "It's been 24 hours people. How many people here don't have some crappy food items in your house that you normally wouldn't eat but you will be perfectly delighted to consume when ravaged by hunger???"

Their homes are gone. They have nothing left. But, other than that, I agree with you. Doesn't matter. Looting is bad. Damn them to hell. But cap their ass with a rubber bullet first. Can't stress this enough. Looting. Is. Bad. No matter what.

As I sit here in my air conditioning surrounded by my intact home and people I love snug in their beds well fed, I will join you in condemning those damn looters. I'll send in my contribution of rubber bullets. Where do I sign up?

[chicagiana]

39. Their homes are gone ...

... so they drove across town to where the stores are so they could loot stores of entire shelves of bread.

I think you're assuming that every one of those souls HAVE to loot. And I think you'e assuming that everyone's home was under water. Who knows.

Are you going to start defending the LA riots now as well???

BTW, if you noticed I kinda concurred with the other guy who said shoot (with rubber bullets) those who are stealing something BESIDES food, like a new wardrobe or sacks of t-shirts, or television sets. Etc...

[Pithlet]

44. Why would I defend the LA riots?

What do they have to do with Katrina?

Looters are bad. We should shoot them with projectiles. Before we damn them to hell. I thought I made that clear.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

38. In this country, theft is not a capital crime

I find this advocacy of killing looters to be deeply disturbing.

No, one should not steal except necessities for survival in the most extreme circumstances, but shooting someone for taking your TV?

No.

[mixedview]

48. Agree 100%

In times like these, when order breaks down, it is clear why the right to keep and bear arms is still necessary.

If it was my store or home they were looting, I might just have to go into "survival mode" myself.

Don't get me wrong, I'll do whatever I can to help people, especially in times of crisis. But once they start violating me or my community - that is where kindness ends and ass kicking begins. :patriot:

[chaska]

17. Let our wild anarchic nature, that runs just below the surface...

at the best of times run free under these extreme circumstances.

Who really gives a fuck about looting.

[WiseButAngrySara]

26. I posted this earlier on the threads about looting, and it was LOCKED!

My feelings were kind of hurt, but it was advised that I use the hide thread opts...have never done that on DU.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4511475

STOP these posts about LOOTERS! Enough already. I've not read
ONE, Pro or Con...Turn on MSM if you want to hear all about it. We have a human tragedy that is beyond comprehension, and all some of you can do is debate the moral pros and cons of looting, for gosh sakes! NOLA is a poor city and a rich city. They are stressed, they are tired, they are hungry, and there is no Christ in sight. What do you expect? Quit wasting time and space debating the inevitable!

[fishnfla]

28. Ooh! Ooh! The sociology of looting. I got something!

1. How many people stayed behind with the expressed purpose of the chance to commit looting? (Very few I'd venture-I think looting is a 'mob mentality' kind of event)

2. Now, but,,, how many people stayed behind to protect their property from looting, I wonder. In other words, they feared the looters more than the storm.( More than the first group, I'd bet)

3. How many from each group end up dead?


We should do a survey!

[Pithlet]

36. Good idea!

Hold on. Let me just step away from my computer being powerd by electricity and rummage through my intact belongings to find survey supplies. I'll meet you in New Orleans. You're definitely on to something, I can feel it. We'll do the survey together. It will be fun.

[mondo joe]

42. Question: do you have any limit on what Katrina victims can do before

before we who sit at computers can judge their actions?

We know you feel we can't judge theft, even of non essential items.

Can we judge other acts? How about murder as part of the looting process?

[Pithlet]

43. Judge away

Looters are bad.

[mondo joe]

50. Congratulations. Armed gangs are ransacking the French Quarter.

More people to not judge because, after all, they are victims.

[mondo joe]

31. Thank you alcibiades. Nice, coherent summation.

I appprove and I agree!

[The Traveler]

37. Is looting a form of hysterical behavior?

civilization has fallen apart in these places. Is looting an hysterical reaction to the collapse of the social order?

[blondeatlast]

41. I'd like to think we can agree that slashing federal funds to cities

is a crock and I bring the issue up here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4515037&mesg_id=4515037

I'm mad as hell about the issue I raise and everyone else should be too.