Looting, Disasters, Human Behavior & Lord Of The Flies.

[KittyWampus]

In disasters it seems people take one of two paths:

they either take guidance from their higher selves and help others in need

or

they allow themselves to manifest the latent reptilian behavior that lies within us all.

of course there are those not-so-savory characters that exist in society anyway.

At any rate, I am reminded of Lord of the Flies. In the movie, the kids weren't totally scripted. They lived on that island for a year (I think) and the director let them explore their natural reactions to living without authority figures present for an extended period.

I saw an interview with some of those kids as grownups. Some of the people were permanently effected by their resultant behavior.

IMO, some DU'ers have a hard time coming to grips with how base our actions can be in certain situations... and how important authority and order is to surviving as civilized people.

We (liberals) tend to rebel against authority as a kneejerk reaction. It's not necessarily a bad thing.

It's likely one lawless act gone unattended to may very well lead to ever more violent lawless acts.

[elehhhhna]

1. Forgot LOTF. Been thinking Mad Max for the last few days, tho'.

[KittyWampus]

3. there's a cautionary tale in this. maybe that's why DU'ers are hashing

it out now.

We percieve what might be just over the horizon for us all.

[elehhhhna]

2. dupe

[jpgray]

4. I don't think it's an "or" option

Sooner or later (as in the book) everyone reverts to the second option.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. Raise your hand if you are posting moral diatribes from waist deep water?

If not, then I suppose there is an element of urgency missing from your perspective at the moment.

[KittyWampus]

8. Not one hint of morality in my post. Why not explore how we behave now

what happens if the shit hits the fan on a larger scale next time.

That's one of the reasons for art and literature.

That's one of the reasons we communicate here on DU.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

10. I'm sorry but in the face of the greater moral decay i.e. people voting

for and following corrupt leaders who unlike the visionaries before them, LEFT THEM to fend for themselves in such a disastrous situation, I find the obsession with looting to be obscene.

There was very little unrest the first day...we are now THREE days into this with people stranded when a few thousand seadoos could have rescued the majority of them by now.

Furthermore, one GIANT step in our social evolution would be to refrain from judging others more harshly than we might judge ourselves.

[KittyWampus]

13. IMO, the obsession with looting isn't just latent prejudice. It's horror

at what lies within us all.

And perhaps we're seeing how things might repeat themselves in upcoming disasters.

If your hometown was flooded, would YOU step up and offer Leadership?

Like to think I would... but who can really say?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

14. Yes I would. I would lead everyone to the supermarkets and bust

their doors open...only I would have a team of big muscled people standing by to ensure equitable distribution> I would also make sure people took lots of chips to go with the water since salt can help rehydrate people.

[tx_dem41]

22. Love the "equitable distribution" part....

Monsieur Robespierre.

Absolutely hilarious. Or is that "ironic"?

[1932]

25. I think the people most horrified by the looting are the corporate

servants.

I think the typical HUMAN reaction is, like Senator Landrieu said, that these people need to eat and live. They have nothing now.

[Guaranteed]

28. It's not the looting. It's the

much greater breakdown of our social contract. It's the fact that, instead of working together (except for the roving gangs) toward a common goal, it's turning into every man for himself.

I actually- and I'm serious here- think the roving gangs are a *great start.* The people are reorganizing. However, they need loftier, more helpful values. They've found the leadership, and hit upon the idea of power and efficiency in numbers. That's good. But they need to *do* some good with it. They need to work toward something greater in order to help- in order to actually SOLVE the problems that are facing New Orleans.

Yes, it's exactly like Lord of the Flies.

[1932]

30. The only contract I see broken is that people on the bridge aren't seeing

their government helping them after they've worked hard, sacrificed and paid taxes all their life thinking it was going towards building a society that helped them in times of trouble.

[Guaranteed]

32. What, so at that point you throw up your hands and say "Fuck it"?

At that point, the whole concept of working together for the greater good no longer applies? Just because we have a piece of shit for a president?

What the hell is this?

You need to take a good look at what you're saying.

[1932]

35. Let's back up.

I really have no idea what you're saying.

In disaster after disaster, from CA earthquakes, to WTC, in times of trouble, when social structures break down, we see that people help each other. The powerful generally do not exploit the week. People forget everything else and try to help their fellow person.

The looting stories on TV are bullshit. The stories about gangs are not the whole story of N.O.

Mostly the story of N.O. is that it appears FEMA is doing nothing and everyone is very disorganized.

It doesn't mean that the people on the ground suffering are evil or are exploiting each other.

The people on that bridge aren't breaking down into a group of powerful people exploiting the weak.

[1932]

12. Seriously.

And LOTF was based on a book, btw. The movie wasn't a social experiment, and I'm sure it had a script since it follows the damn book.

[KittyWampus]

15. I Saw A Special Featuring The Director and The Actors (Grown Up)

the director let the kids loose over a long period of time with little direction or script.

[1932]

17. The movie had a script.

The movie itself wasn't a social experiment.

I don't doubt the director let the kids run around for a week to helpt them get in character.

However, the book and the movie were works of fiction that were allegories about society. They never happened in real life.

That's not saying that the allegories aren't useful.

But it is saying you need a better argument.

[KittyWampus]

19. Excuse me, but I SAW the director & actors talking about how it was filmed

in a documentary.

Here's a bit I found... turn's out it wasn't filmed over that long of a time.

"In fact director Peter Brook comments on the jacket that based on his experience of shooting the film, his largest disagreement with Golding is that rather than the slow movement toward destruction portrayed in the book, catastrophe would ensue "within one long weekend."

Which brings us to the back story. Brook employed a full staff that had never been involved in a film. None of the kids involved had any real professional experience. Neither did most of the staff. I actually think of it as The Blair Witch Project in reverse. Instead of taking professionals and making us believe they are real people, Brook takes real people and makes us think they are actors. The cast and crew were transported to a remote island in Puerto Rico and principal shooting was completed in a relatively short time (the children had to be back in school at the end of their summer break). snip

Perhaps the most fascinating thing is what happened to the kids after they left the set. We are told, in one of the extras, that these rather ordinary children almost uniformly shot to the top of their class and became ritual overachievers in school and out. Whether this was due to being treated largely as adults for that summer, or due to some other factor is unknown by me. But I am told a documentary was made in later years where the main characters are reunited as adults on the very same island by a British documentarian. It certainly has piqued my interest enough to wish it too was included on this disc, and may even be enough for me to try to search it out on video.

[1932]

20. Exactly. It wasn't a social experiment.

Your post says that shooting was completed quickly. You said they spent a year on the island.

And again, the movie follows the book, so your argument that it's an exmple of what happens when the rules break down doesn't really work.

Movie. Book. Works of fiction.

Find a different example to support your argument.

[1932]

21. Exactly. It wasn't a social experiment.

Your link says that shooting was completed quickly. You said they spent a year on the island.

And again, the movie follows the book, so your argument that it's an exmple of what happens when the rules break down doesn't really work.

Movie. Book. Works of fiction.

Find a different example to support your argument.

[KittyWampus]

23. We seem to be miscommunicating. Art works on a symbolic level

and the book and the movie both touched on symbolic truths about human nature.

According to the documentary about when and how the movie was filmed, the experiences of the crew validated the theme of the book.

[1932]

24. Apparently the experience of filming that movie turned the kids into

overachievers.

Was that the point you were trying to make?

[Guaranteed]

26. God dammit, this isn't about morality in the LEAST.

This is psychology, sociology. It's fascinating, at the very least.

And, at best, aren't we allowed to give our practical opinion about how to solve the issues presented?

Don't we all have to work together??? WHY are people questioning this?

[1932]

31. I'm questioning it because it's a poorly supported argument

that when things are bad people become evil and power mad.

I don't think the evidence in NO or the experience of filming LOTF supports that argument.

[Pithlet]

33. It doesn't. You're absolutely right.

It was a work of fiction. Made into a movie. Nothing more.

I should have stayed out of GD today...

[Guaranteed]

36. IMO, there is no work of fiction that is more analogous.

The book/movie isn't even the point, though. Forget LOTF.

The question is, are we going to work together to solve these problems, or are we going to have a free-for-all?

[Pithlet]

38. I think

that comparing real life people who are suffering right now and dying to fictional characters is No. I'm not going any futher. I'm too angry and distgusted.

[1932]

39. I think we can solve their problems without

indulging in the notion that this crisis is turning people into evil exploiters of weakness in others.

I'm really doubtful that the evidence supports that claim, and I think it's a very bizarre argument to make. These people are victims of tragedy. They're not evil.

[Guaranteed]

34. It's anarchy down there. There are gangs

roaming the streets...or rivers...with guns.

What are you trying to say, here? You're questioning these ideas that should just be second-nature to progressives.

[1932]

37. I need to read your links, because although I've heard ONE version of

that story, I've seen dozens and dozens of other stories where people can't ROAM because they're trapped in attics or on bridges, and the people who aren't trapped are roaming their way north out of the city.

[Guaranteed]

40. According to the stories posted on DU, there are armed gangs

roaming the French Quarter. People are invading hospitals. It's chaos.

Look, the facts are all beside the point, though (LOL, I know, that's funny/stupid- but read on). People are pushing the "every man for himself" idea here. Regardless of the facts, what is the best approach to a situation like this? Yes, I TOTALLY AGREE that people need to be able to get food and water and other necessities by stealing if they have to. But that can't be the be-all end-all. When gangs form, they can't just be working for the survival of the gang. There are hundreds of thousands of people in trouble there. They ALL need help, and EVERYONE needs to be doing what they can to solve these problems. In some situations, they might even need to sacrifice themselves to do what needs to be done.

If there's no help coming from the Feds, the people have to organize themselves- and STILL work for the greater good. There aren't any excuses, lest our ENTIRE SOCIETY FALL APART, which doesn't help anybody, at all.

[1932]

43. Like I said, it doesn't look like there's evidence to support the

claim that it's descending into LOTF-style exploitative chaos.

There's one thread about gangs. I've seen nothing about that anywhere else. A crowd formed in front of a hospital, yes. They probably wanted to see a doctor.

Everyother story is not about people ROAMING but about people STRANDED, waiting for help, wondering when help is coming, and they're not pulling guns on each other. Little kids are not having their milk cartons snatched from them by 350 lb men.

Really.

The notion that the victims are evil or headed towards evil is a little perverse.

[Guaranteed]

44. With all due respect....

None of us know what is going on down there. But, it does sound as if, and it's not unreasonable to believe that, there is some awfully non-helpful stuff going on in that city. I'd *hope* that it isn't- but I don't think that these things are being made up.

But that is all beside the point.

The point is that given the assumption that those things are going on, there are those defending it.

But we can't DO that. The "contract" can be "bent," but it all too quickly breaks.

It's not PRACTICAL. People have to work TOGETHER- no matter what! It's the ONLY way we can make it.

We're progressives, for criminy's sake! We know this!

I don't get what I'm seeing here.

It's seems fatalistic. I'm not going to give into that.

[1932]

48. No. We do know some of the things that are going on,

and the pictures and the news coverage shows a lot of good people suffering.

There are literally one or two news stories at DU saying something else and the contrast sharply with the coverage on TV.

[ewagner]

6. Thanks for this post

I've been thinking about this since the first reports of looting and violence started coming in.

When the STRUCTURE of Civil Society breaks down, we're left with our survival modes and our "lesser angels" take over. LOTF is a model for how people behave when the traditional value structure breaks down...and if doesn't matter if the people are black or white...

remember it happened in Miami after Andrew also....

[undergroundpanther]

7. Either the Cop

Is within you,as in self control, and YOU take responsibility for your own freedom and oWN the results of your actions in the world(and that responsibility might not always be what the"establisment" or status quo calls"good or "normal" or rightious" or it could be..When is GREED rightious? in the name of profit or survival? Whos surcvival?).... or the Cop is going to be a cop for hire there to restrain you based on the latest agenda of the richest and most powerful dominators of the culture the culture is taght to emulate and call good...Even if it is evil.

You decide freedonm takes equality and responsibility.

Inequality and opression takes a game,of haves and have nots,The dominators to be irresponsible exploiters full of selfish excuses getting away with it,and servants to be hyperresponsible and sacrifice each other to the rulers comforts..Inequality is NOT freedom.

There is a game of make believe our culture plays with itself to sustain inequality. May the game end.

[KittyWampus]

9. We need to take a collective step forward in our social evolution

[natrat]

11. (liberals) tend to rebel...as a kneejerk reaction. It's not ...bad thing.

what's not that bad the reaction or the authority?------in this case a knee jerk reaction to anything *ush is required.

[Qibing Zero]

16. The problem with these threads

is that people are not considering why this happens in the first place. You'd like to believe that inside we can either be good or bad in any situation, but in reality it's a result of many different factors.

The lawless nature of it all is not why people are looting things they don't directly need to survive.

Consider the high class and the low class in a situation like the one we are in:

The high class has the means to escape the situation, and we've seen that happen, but for the sake of argument we'll assume one of them was stuck. The high class person has no need to loot things other than for his/her survival. They have money waiting for them when they get out of the situation, so unless they fear the situation will never end, they have no need to do anything but survive.

The low class does not have the means to escape the situation, and no one helps them do so. The best some are offered is a better sheleter than they have. Because of not only this, but of having been born into the situation they are in (have-not) and not being given a real chance to get out of it, and watching others thrive while they are doomed, they take advantage of the situation at hand. Some will still only loot to survive, if their anger toward society is not strong. A lot of them however will view the situation as a chance to 'rise up' and take a position higher than what they would have normally had.


Now, if people truly believe that the situation will never restore itself, and that they will have to create a new society, they will enter that free for all. There's no doubt that the higher class will be much more likely to believe someone is coming to help them than the lower class.

[KittyWampus]

18. There's no doubt that the higher class will be much more likely to believe

"There's no doubt that the higher class will be much more likely to believe someone is coming to help them than the lower class."

I think that's an invaluable observation.

[Guaranteed]

27. Not often in agreement with you, but, here, it's total.

This is where our character is shown. Can we pull together, use reason and work for the greater good?

What happens to New Orleans if we can't?

[Guaranteed]

29. And rec'd. nt

[KittyWampus]

46. what happens in America if we can't. ......we got to stick together ya'll

Beastie Boys song :)

[Guaranteed]

47. Well, come on in.

The water's nice. :)

[fishnfla]

41. I have been thinking along these lines

When the mob rules, we all lose, is my opinion.

But, I've been thinking. New Orleans has long had a history of violent crime. I believe it always is near the top of the murder rate. I've been there, its a big city, there is some real tough parts of town.

Would it not then be more likely descend into the corrupt acts we are seeing now? I ma referring specifically to looting of durable goods and the stories of armed mobs. Did it have a head start in this direction?

My concern is that the steps into chaos are leading further down. Will we next hear of armed abductions, kidnapping, rape, gang rape, manslaughter or murder?

[Just Me]

42. I reject yet ANOTHER FUCKIN' SIMPLISTIC hammer on humanity!!!

Neither humanity nor nature falls into the square or round hole structure that all control-friggin' human beings seek to impose!!!

Meditate on this,..."poop",..."poop",..."i am producing p-o-o-p".
}(

[Guaranteed]

45. This isn't a simple post at all.

This is a very complicated issue. But I think this post is on the right side of it.