A classist/racist tragedy...

[Kevin Spidel]

I had to say it.

The majority of folks you see that are wading the waters of the aftermath of Katrina are people of color whom are in the lowest income bracket in the south.

When the mandatory evacuation was given, they were told to leave town and find a place to “hold up.”

That policy does not work for many low income households in communities of color.

Being a Hispanic who grew up in the projects, let me tell you… if someone asked me to “pick up and take shelter elsewhere.” My family would not know where to go. Our entire world (family, friends, network of support) were within 2 square miles of my house. Many of these low income families only have each other. Being through several hurricanes, these folks felt their best chances are with the support network.

When the levee’s broke, it flooded these communities. Many who had no way to leave, or no place to go.

Some took shelter in the superdome, but we know that story.

The folk directly affected by this tragedy were the lower class, and communities of color.

We need to look at how to safely evacuate and provide shelter to these communities versus just a warning and leaving them to their doom.

Sorry… I had to say it.

The evacuation warnings (by default) were only given to those who has the privilege to pack up and leave. Many did not.

And folks wonder why the looting began.


<edited for grammer>

[Horse with no Name]

1. The only thing that outshadows epic proportions of gross negligence

is epic proportions of gross racism.

[Karenina]

73. The same paradigms and dynamics

that fuel the genocide of the Iraqi people.

[OneBlueSky]

2. I've been thinking the same thing . . . the lack of adequate response . .

particularly to rescue stranded people in New Orleans can, by now, only be construed as intentional, not just incompetant . . . and the fact that most of those stranded on roofs and in attics are people of color makes it all the more disturbing and disgusting . . .

[toopers]

3. This has nothing to do with racism.

However, your statement, "and folks wonder why the looting began" rings of racism more than anything that has happened in NO this week!

[Nikki Stone 1]

6. But it does have to do with racism

and not the least of which, the racism of the media itself.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kevin Spidel]

8. its lack of resources... and institutionalized racism...

that led to the looting, that led to so many deaths of people of color.

[toopers]

10. That's bunk.

EOM

[Kevin Spidel]

22. care to expand versus just "bunk" n/t

[alarimer]

37. It is not

How the hell are they supposed to get out when they have no money, no car, nowhere else to stay? That is lack of resources for sure.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tx_dem41]

9. Agree entirely....

its shocked me to see how so many DUers "expect" poor people to behave selfishly and lawlessly. Is it "classism" or "racism"? Take your pick.

[jeffrey_X]

11. Actually it does....institutional racism my friend.

what we are seeing on the TV today is a direct result of institutional racism, and the remains of oppression, Jim Crow and slavery.

I mean don't you even wonder why you aren't seeing any white people struggling to get out of NO????

[One_Life_To_Give]

20. Arn't poor whites

living in the rural areas as opposed to the cities? So since the TV crews are only covering the city, we can only expect to see poor city folk and not the poor rural folk.

[ultraist]

24. The looting dynamic is similiar to a peasant revolt ,IMO

I'm not referring to the looting of food/water. The police even said, "people need to eat and we are not going to stop them." I'm referring to the armed gangs and acts of violence. We don't really know how bad it is, we can't trust the MSM.

[jeffrey_X]

48. Similar to rioting...

Rioting was/has been the only real way for opressed minorities to express their outrage/emotions regarding volatile situations.

And furthermore, the acts we are seeing now are merely just a byproduct of the human nature of individuals who don't have the resources and have not been given equal opportunties to succeed in our society.

[starroute]

84. Yes, and the pattern goes all the way back

During Shays Rebellion in 1787, there was looting -- and that was poor white farmers in Western Massachusetts. So it's got nothing to do with race -- just with power relationships.

[JanMichael]

86. See you're right in your analysis where the "Git yor hans off my stuf!"...

...crowd are pretty much devoid of any actual understanding of our Class based Institutional Racism that permeates all of America, including the so-called Liberal locales. They are supremely ignorant of root causes and socio-economics.

I agree with you completely however the "Skin Walkers" will post time and time again how the "looters" are bad, evil, trash, etcetera. Apparently they don't have jobs or sleep?

The fact is that this f'ed up system has created the very impulses that it abhors.

So much for Suburbian bliss now however with energy cost sucking every last penny from their lily white pocketbooks.

Good BYE and GOOD RIDDANCE!

[bread_and_roses]

93. YES

"devoid of any actual understanding of our Class based Institutional Racism that permeates all of America, including the so-called Liberal locales. They are supremely ignorant of root causes..."

That about sums it up.

[toopers]

78. Actually, I have seen pictures of poor white people in NO.

EOM.

[Kevin Spidel]

14. looting comes from a sense of injustice

all based on classism and race.

not condoning it... just telling a little of the side not being told in the media.

[Eloriel]

38. Yeah, I don't know if you saw it, but I thought this was a terrific

explanation:

When the social contract is broken by the powers that be, "looting"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=nominate&forum=104&thread=4520980

[Emit]

83. Link is a nominating thread link or something.

Is it the link you were referring to?

[toopers]

80. That is BS.

Looting comes from a lack of morality or in many cases a sense of entitlement. This, should go without saying, excludes people who are breaking into stores looking for food. Tell me how a 27inch TV is going to help you survive in an area that is flooded and has no power, and I'll back off on my opinion. That stuff can't even be fenced right now because it is worthless in this environment.

[ultraist]

23. BS. They left those people to die because the majority were Black & poor

You can bet your bottom dollar that if those regions had been populated with wealthy whites who had no way out, they would have gotten them out.

[RageFist]

41. If it was in an area populated with wealthy whites

(Edit: or wealthy PEOPLE for that matter) they would have top-notch flood control systems. (channels, washes, etc.) They have a wonderful system here in Las Vegas. In December '04 we had record amounts of rain and very little impact on daily life (although the main street near my home was a raging river when a basin overflowed). It was estimated that dozens of lives were saved because officials have been planning for such flooding for years. Vegas has a lot of wealthy people, and as such, there was an institutionalized way to REALLY address the problem before it even became one.

[tx_dem41]

64. Can you explain then why the Lakefront, which is full of "wealthy whites".

and is closest to the 17th Street Canal breach is now underwater?

[RageFist]

65. Well, I did edit it to say wealthy PEOPLE

and I have been told that La is a poor state in general anyway. You should see the economic growth here in vegas, its really phenomenal. We are getting tax refunds from the state because the coffers are so full. I don't think thats happened/happening in La.

(Edit: I might add that I'm a white man...I just think Malcolm x was the shit)

[ultraist]

90. NOLA has a poverty rate more than double the national average

Poverty rate for New Orleans is 27%
Population by race for the city is 67% Black & 28% white.

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAFFFacts?_event=Search&geo_id=&_geoContext=&_street=&_county=New+Orleans&_cityTown=New+Orleans&_state=04000US22&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010

[mn723]

49. This claim is based on what?

Do you realize that every statement like this takes a little something away from the pleas of people who are truly victims of racism.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[toopers]

81. NO city leaders are predominantly african-american . . .

if there is racism occurring then it is reversed. State politics is predominantly democratic, and very well represented by non-whites . . . Maybe it's them "light skin blacks" that hate them "dark skin blacks" that's causing all this racism! Give me a break!

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluerthanblue]

96. Read the post again- it has EVERYTHING to do with racism AND class-ism

The bushit about "Why didn't they leave"? AND GO WHERE????-
And what the hell is the deal with shipping these folks to fricking sports stadiums????????

i'm so angry at the OBVIOUS lack of compassion, empathy and GENUINE help from the rich-republican aristocracy i could puke-

You gonna justify killing a person who lived through the hurricane hell because they steal a bunch of sneakers???-(i saw this on MSM tonite and i wanted to aim a gun at that f...g cop.- (and i'm a pacifist)- it is just STUFF- stuff that likely will be destroyed and demolished anyway-
i feel so far removed from this society that has become, (or maybe revealed for what 'we' truly are and have been) when all we can do is complain about gas prices, and people taking things from the flood ravaged areas- people who, for the most part, lived through the hell, and are now walking around in the ruins.

We should all be damned to hell for that kind of ugly, greedy, materialism.

[Nikki Stone 1]

4. Don't apologize for saying it. You are correct

And thanks to international cable news, American racism is on display all over the world.

[confludemocrat]

34. It's true, Int'l news simply showing what we won't show: the clear racism

And no amount of half-baked, indignant glossing it over (as seen above in this thread) will change that fact.

[Orion The Hunter]

5. Excellent post

You are right on the money! I have already seen a few posts saying, "Well how come those people did not get out of there?! They were ordered to!!"

Well newsflash - not everyone had the capability to do so, and, as the OP notes, quite a few believed riding out the storm there with their support network was the way to go. And let's not forget the "sage" advice from FEMA to those who did not have the financial capability to get out of town: "Evacuate vertically".

In the future, it would be wise for both local and federal authorities to provide assistance for those who cannot fend for themselves and actually evacuate people rather than just issue a statement and leave these poor folks to their collective fate.

[eridani]

102. It's obvious what their therapy for diabetes would be.

They'd just holler "Make more insulin, dammit!" and wonder why their patients didn't do what they were told to do.

[dejaboutique]

12. great post

i agree. as I am seeing 1000 people stranded on the overpass with help passing by and helicopters flying by I KNOW it is a race issue. if those were white babies and moms screaming for help ALL forces would have been pulled out by now. America cant watch white people in distress as easily as they can blacks...these people are being left to die of thirst.

[mn723]

13. Be careful

You are teetering on the line between being a liberal and being a bleeding-heart liberal. Racism exists, but in a tragedy like this it comes down to survival of the fittest. There are stranded white people and white looters as well. We need to be careful when we plea racism because we can only go to that well so often, especially in today's age when there are so many programs that actually promote reverse racism.

[ultraist]

25. Reverse racism?

"...especially in today's age when there are so many programs that actually promote reverse racism."

Really? And what programs would those be?

[mn723]

45. Gov't imposed quotas on minority participation

is a good place to start. However, this isn't the point. Maybe I chose my words unwisely, but I just don't see any racism in what has happened in NO. A tragedy happened, those who were hurt seem to be mostly non-white. We need to help these people, not scream racism where it doesn't exist.

[wuushew]

57. Affirmative Action is not quota based

the Supreme Court rulings on the matter are very clear.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

75. What quota? Quota's are not legal.

[Mairead]

92. What happened is down to classism.

Racism is a kind of classism, just as blue is a kind of color. The people in New Orleans were victims of classism, and it just so happens that the majority there were Black folks, so it had a racist character. But the '-ism' was classism: the poorest have no value to the wealthy, and can be abandoned or provided only minimal support.

[Eloriel]

47. Yes, I'd like to know which ones he's talking about too. n/t

[bobbieinok]

100. totally agree

[Kevin Spidel]

26. wow...

sorry institutionalized racism is no "well" to "go to" for political gain! There are so many things wrong with this response I have a hard time figuring out which part to respond to.

Liberal vs. "Bleeding-heart liberal" wow... are you for real? Sorry to say that institutionalized racism exists, and because of it adequate evacuation processes were not used. That is not very "bleeding-heart" it is fact!


wow.

sometimes liberals do more damage to the evolution out of instatutionalized race then they do to help the cause. this is an example.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

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[mn723]

53. My point was missed

I'm trying to get across my point that after so many years of fighting to end real racism I fear that we may be hurting our own cause. If we scream racism where (in my opinion) it doesn't exist all we do is numb the ears of those whose minds we must persuade. This hurricane is a natural disaster, not a human plot to hurt certain races of people.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

76. Real simple my friend...who was left in Louisiana?

How is it all those white churches managed to take care of their own and a sea of black people is what you see from the air?


BTW...what have you done to end racism..I'm dying to know

[tedzbear]

58. Survival of the fittest????

Ha. Let's stick YOU in the NO superdome and see who is the fittest!

[wildeyed]

62. Oh give me a f'ing break,

we are talking about huge number of poor people, disproportionately black if what I am seeing on the news is correct, stranded on roof tops while the flood waters rage below, and you want me to worry about programs that promote 'reverse racism'? And my heart could not bleed enough for these people. It is a horrible situation they are stuck in, and I hope you never, ever have to experience something like that yourself.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

74. LOL..I don't know if I am more underwhelmed by the social darwinism

or the code talk such as "reverse racism" "bleeding heart liberal" or the claim that racism is being alleged too often and the claim in there somewhere that programs designed to balance institutionalized prejudice somehow harm white people.

You sure know how to load a post.

[Pithlet]

77. Oh, no! Not bleeding heart liberals!

Wouldn't want to be one of those.

You are right about one thing in your post. We can only plead racism so many times. Before someone calls us a...gasp...bleeding heart liberal. :scared:

[Bluerthanblue]

97. stones don't bleed- i'm not ashamed to care- I'm ashamed of those who

don't.-

We can plead the truth as long as we have to till people can't live in denial any longer. DENIAL kills, no matter how hard the truth is to face or swallow, it has to be- for ALL our sakes.

[Bryan Buchan]

15. Not only do we need to look at evac plans...

...but we need to hold this administration accountable for cutting funding to the Engineer Corps who were planning and working on rebuilding the Levee’s.

[One_Life_To_Give]

16. Not by Malice

Maybe the mayor should have organized caravans of school buses. To take people up to shelters well north of NOLA.
Maybe the Navy should have had a couple Amphib ships like the Tarawa, following Katrina in to provide rescue.
Maybe we could have/should have done alot of things. But asking those people who can, to evacuate themselves from the situation is the same as asking those who can walk to leave a burning building by the nearest exit.

Yes the tragedy feel upon the poor. And we should learn from this how to better deal with future disasters. But it is a tragedy of Omission not Commission.

[Kevin Spidel]

18. probably one of the better points...

I can agree "Omission not Commission." Damn good response.

[Eloriel]

55. Yeah, Kevin, but Omission is just as deadly

Is it really excusable?

[Kevin Spidel]

59. agreed. but this one made me think. But...

by me being the originator of this thread I thought that your comment goes without saying. I agree with you as well.

[One_Life_To_Give]

17. dupe

[ecoflame]

19. You are right on the money

but I've seen plenty of white folks today, which is certainly about class. I tend to think economics probably played a greater role than perhaps race.

As I was discussing with my daughter, I was shocked at the number of people who did not have a vehicle. I don't know how the public transportation system was set up in NO, but I know like in New York City for instance and D.C., friends don't own a car. I'm out west so we have a couple.

There's also the definition of 'those .... privilege' which could mean someone like me who earns about 35K a year, has an auto and stays connected to the world via the internet. I don't know about the evacuation warnings in NO and surrounding areas. I know from being on the web, orders were issued. How that was disseminated around the communities, I don't know.

[donheld]

21. Thank you for saying it

I had a dispute with a co-worker. He said people didn't leave because they survived other storms. I said that was true for some, but others simply had no choice. He said NOLA had buses to evacuate the poor. In this tragedy it's clear the white skinned are helped far above the darker skinned people. It even has been pointed out here at DU, white people find things, darker skinned people loot. :banghead:

[ultraist]

27. It's not so easy to leave without a car or cash, is it?

It's a hard to choice to either take a gamble and ride it out, or scramble to find a ride out and end up stranded, far from home, with a measley $20 in your pocket.

It's easy to load up in your nice vehicle with credit cards and cash and head out. Or fly out, knowing your property insurance will cover your losses.

I'd like those who are denying that the lack of planning and assistance is classist and racist based, explain why NOLA, with their 67% Black population has a poverty rate double the national average. Why is that? Are the Blacks there inferior? Lazy? Stupid? Or is it because we have a serious lack of equal access to opportunity in our country?

[Eloriel]

29. NOMINATED. This is an EXTREMELY important point

and consideration.

I saw a pic of dozens of flooded yellow school busses on one of the New Orleans slide shows and my heart just broke: those should've (ideally) been moved out of harm's way in preparation for use to move people elsewhere. AND they could've been loaded with low-income people on the way out.

It's horrible, and I'll also say that I thought Mayor Nagin's attitude on the matter PRIOR to the hurricane was a little less than what it should've been. I was worried about that at the time. He seemed to think (judging from how he talked) that the people who stayed beyind could either do fine in the Dome or fending for themselves. I'd have really liked to have seen more of a fire built under him to help these people get out.

[Kevin Spidel]

33. thanks, maybe the votes will spur more discussion on this issue. n/t

[terip64]

39. kick

[leftchick]

30. paycheck to paycheck

that is what one older black gal said this morning. We live paycheck to paycheck we could not aford to leave.

This is sooo tragic. :(

[RageFist]

44. Wait, isnt' the economy booming?

Isnt it tho...look at the numbers. I promise, they tell a story of a booming economy. Why don't you believe me guys? If I say it more, doesn't that make it true? The economy is strong guys!

(My humble attempt at a * impression)

[terip64]

31. I don't have enough posts to nominate

but this is very important and should be on the greatest page!

[Horse with no Name]

32. I'm gonna say it and prepare to be slammed

The majority of the people left behind in New Orleans were black people and people that are known as "Poor White Trash"...which in the South equates the same. These are the people that were left to die because in the year 2005 in Bush world...they aren't worthy of resources because they contribute nothing to him.
You speak the truth Kevin...don't let anyone tell you that you don't.
And for the ones who don't see this as blatant racism and classism...you know not of what you speak.

[proud2BlibKansan]

91. You are exactly right, Horse

I have spent 25 years teaching the children of the working poor and I cannot recall a time when they were treated as badly by our govt as they are being treated now.

[Bluerthanblue]

98. TRUTH-spoken with eloquence . couldn't agree more on all points n/t

.

[Window]

35. I'm glad you felt compelled to post this.

Excellent post. Recommended.

[RageFist]

36. There was also a gross lack of coordination

and leadership. Yesterday I saw a whole fleet of school buses just sitting there in a flooded area...sigh

[Desertrose]

40. excellent point Kevin, couldn't agree more...

we are witnessing the clear definition of *haves vs have nots* and it is certainly following lines of race as well as income since they are clearly tied together . I don't know for sure if this is more true in the south but I'm guessing it probably is.

This should not have happened. feels like our country has regressed about 50 years since bushco took over.

:hi:Kevin:loveya:
DR

[Kevin Spidel]

42. and unfortunatly the clear lines are marked in "death" n/t

[Desertrose]

52. Never thought the life & death part would happen so fast...

or in this manner.....it seems so clear to me what they (bushco) are doing to those they have deemed as not worthy....

So sad....

Just curious...do you think a Dept of Peace would be able to help out with the looting & other problems???

[Eloriel]

61. But it is ever thus

That is the bottom line. The poor and minorities don't have the same access to resources. The ultimate result of that is death -- early death, earlier death, needless death, wanton death, more or less intentional death (at the hands of cops, for example), and so forth.

Racism = Death.

Classism = Death.

Sexism = Death.

[jaysunb]

88. you nailed it !

n/t

[jaysunb]

89. you nailed it !

n/t

[Kevin Spidel]

43. ohh .. and HI DR!!!!

miss you!

[Desertrose]

51. Hi Kev, miss you too....

we should catch up sometime,eh?

:hug:
DR

we have a peace vigil in town again tonite...should be interesting to see what folks are saying about this sad Gulf Coast mess.....and the chimperor's lack of leadership....

[corkhead]

50. Just when I think Smirky Guitarzan is going to hit single digit approval,

I hear a moran say "it's not that I am racist or anything, but maybe they can finally put all those people livin' on welfare to work puttin' up a new levee"

:mad:

[wildeyed]

54. They knew that some day NO would be hit and hit hard.

They knew that there were problems with the pumps and levees. They knew that there are large numbers of poor in the city. And they based their evacuation plan on personal transport, knowing that a significant portion of the population has no personal transport. Seriously, was the plan to just drown them? Where did they think these people would go?

And yes I think it is classist/racist. I don't see any rich white people waving white flags from the tops of buildings.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

56. Biloxi vs. Nawlins

most people in american understand New Orleans.
Not many realize Biloxi is black, poor and dependent on one industry - gambling.

the MSM finds NO neat and scary, but Biloxi is even worse off.

and being black and poor, it is a racial thing, no doubt.

[wildeyed]

67. I think the continuing flooding in NO is partially what is fueling

the interest, plus the large population. Also, NO is a mythical city, and lives large in the national consciousness, so there is the sense that we are losing a national treasure.

You are right, I know less about Biloxi, Gulfport, places like that. But my sympathies are with the survivors there, too.

[HEAVYHEART]

60. Nominated

Thanks.

[Robbie Michaels]

68. Someone Had To Say It

What I don't understand is how everyone watching the news, surfing the Internet, or reading the newspapers KNEW Katrina was coming ashore in the Gulf region two days beforehand and NO National Guard troops were mobilized beforehand to help evacuate more residents in time or to assist in rescue operations.

I can't blame these people for looting to get necessary items to survive, but let's get real. No one needs to carry a 27" widescreen TV out of a Wal-Mart when there's a good chance the warranty on it will expire before they can find a working outlet to plug it into.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

70. they were mobilized, wearing their desert outfits, in the green zone

as stated by others, THAT IS A BIG PART OF THE DAMNED PROBLEM.

[Blue_Tires]

69. ttt n/t

[Nikki Stone 1]

71. kick

:kick:

[Cleita]

72. All those people should have been evacuated by neighborhoods

by air, by land and by sea, if our government had issued the orders two days ago. Randi Rhodes said that there was no reason Bush couldn't get on the phone to the CEOs of airlines, cruise ships, and bus companies to tell them to put their itineries on hold to help out with this humanitarian effort and that they would be remibursed for expenses if they did so.

But wasn't he eating cake, strumming a guitar and playing golf instead?

[tlsmith1963]

82. I completely agree

Classism & racism are definitely a part of this. This is the result of the "Social Darwinism" policy of the Republicans. After years of "hate radio" & Fox News, what else do people expect? I am deeply sickened by this. It's time to let the Republicans have it. They have shown just how horrible they really are. I knew these neocons were pretty disgusting, but NO takes their behavior to a whole new level. This is shameful. This should not be happening in America. Time to make the Republicans pay.

Tammy

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spooky3]

94. what does any of what you have to say have to do with natural

disasters and the extremely slow response of our fearless leaders to warnings of impending crisis?

[stickdog]

95. Exactly. Without money, a credit card, a car and a driver's licence,

where were many of these folks supposed to go?

Without knowledge of the regional geography or often any neighborhoods besides their own, how were they supposed to get there?

[eleny]

99. Bernie Ward was just talking about this

He asked if there was no urban poor evacuation plan because 80% of NO's poor are black. He lobbed that right onto the table just 20 minutes into his broadcast.

[Kevin Spidel]

101. thank you all...

I took a chance at voicing what I felt might be controversial, but something I felt I had to say.... thank you all for your support and making me feel not alone on this issue. This is why I love DU!

Thank you for the votes, the kicks, and the dialogue.

I still don't get the "bleeding-heart liberal post" and the jab at affermative action.


i dunno.


but glad the majority made my vent feel welcome.

I love DU'ers!