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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 11:07 PM
Original message
"Weepin' and a wailing tonight...."
{1}"This morning I woke up in a curfew
oh God, I was a prisoner too -- yeah
could not recognize the faces standing over me
they were all dressed in uniforms of brutality

How many rivers do we have to cross
before we can talk to the boss
all that we got seems lost
we must have really paid the cost"
--Bob Marley; "Burnin' and Lootin' "

There has been a lot of discussion about the behaviors and treatment of the thousands of poor people who have had their lives devastated by the hurricane. I think it is worth taking a step back from some of the emotional debate, and to take an objective look at the situation, in a sociological manner. This should not require anyone to change their values as far as they relate to issues such as stealing or racism. But it may help to step back from our more passionate beliefs, and to look at the picture from outside the frame.

Throughout history, when large, urban nation-states have experienced either natural or man-made crises, those people who live on the margins of society often participate in behaviors we describe as "looting." If these people at the margins are culturally, racially, religiously, or ethnically different than the majority of the population, the "looting" becomes more aggressive and violent. A good example of this is when the Roman Empire began to crumble, and the Germanic tribes were burning and looting on the edges of the society.

This type of behavior becomes far more pronounced when the structures within the society break-down. What we might call "sub-groups" begin to impose their own "order." We see this with the gang activity that is being reported. This is one of the ugliest potentials for human behavior. This is something we want to avoid, not because we should be wringing our hands, obsessed that an unemployed thief is going to steal a nicer television that the one we worked for. This is actually about a luxury that we can't afford, and that is to become true warfare.


{2} "The great evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse, and turbulent character of the people. It is not the intention at all to import food for the use of the people of Ireland. (This is the) only way to prevent people from becoming habitually dependent on government."
-- Charles Trevelyan

The British government put Charles Trevelyan in charge of its "Irish policy" during the Great Starvation, when the potato crop failed. He viewed the starvation as "God's work." He believed it was a divine plan to get a lesser class of people off the land, so that it would be open for the aristocracy from England to take control of it.

Trevelyan believed in an economic theory put forth by Thomas Malthus in 1805. He noted that human beings were multiplying at a geometric rate, while natural resources were produced at an arithmetric rate. Thus, he concluded that an "elite" was destined to survive in luxury by exerting a powerful control over those resoures. This theory has a down-side for poor folks, however, because it is important that large numbers of them die at a fairly constant rate. Malthus identified things such as warfare and genocide as being as acceptable in the scheme of things as earthquakes and floods.

So, when there was a great starvation in Ireland (remember, there were bumper crops for everything except potato crops, and Ireland exported record amounts of food while people starved), the "elite" recognized it as God's way to clear some shanty Irish off the land. Now, we all know that was a century and a half ago. And things have changed. It's not like the US government would turn a blind eye to a famine in Africa, right?

For many people, this type of thinking is so foreign that it is rejected out of hand. They do not believe that it is so much evil that is creating the suffering in the south, as it is the hurrican plus the government's incompetence. Yet, even republican Joe Scarborough noted tonight that our government was very competent when a series of hurricanes hit Florida last year. And he said any politician who says they had no warning is a liar, not to be trusted.

{3}Q: Don't you incite, Malcolm? Don't you incite?

A: I don't think so. How are you going to incite people who are living in slums and ghettos? It's the city structure that incites. A city that continues to let people live in rat infested dens ... and pay higher rent ... than they pay downtown. That is what incites people. Who lets merchants outcharge and overcharge people for their groceries and their clothing and other commodities.... while you pay less downtown. This is what incites. A city that will not create some kind of employment for people who are barred from having jobs because their skin is black. That's what incites it. Don't ever accuse a black man for voicing his resentment and dissatisfaction over the criminal condition of his people as being responsible for inciting the situation. You have to indict the society that allows these things to exist. And this is where I differ from Dr. Hall."
-- Malcolm X; "Confrontation with an 'Expert'", from Malcolm X Speaks

I've read DUers say that this situation has nothing to do with race. I respect their right to their interpretation. But that is a dangerous lack of insight, in my opinion. It doesn't make those people "bad," it just means they are missing an important part of this picture.

I had a person I usually respect, though I often disagree with him, tell me that looting has nothing to do with property. Again, people are entitled to their interpretation, but it is missing the point entirely.

We have some choices. I am convinced that in the next few days, it will become clearer that Charles Trevelyan will be President Bush's choice to handle the situation created by the hurricane. The federal policy will put a great deal of attention on "property rights." And that threatens to take focus away from the human rights involved.

Ignorance and stupidity, which seem to come natural from Washington, DC, does not fully explain the failure to meet the human needs involved here. We need to offer people hope. We need to let the victims of the hurricane know that we will not allow the vultures in Washington control their destinies.

We need to use this as an opportunity to change the values in America. We cannot afford to allow the social fabric to unravel. We cannot have thousands of people starving and dying of thirst. We can't have gangs instituting a violent disorder, and making this country as dangerous as Iraq.

Do what you can. Thank you.
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Der Blaue Engel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well said, H20 n/t
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Der Blaue Engel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. Kick
Man, threads are sinking faster than houses in NOLA around here tonight.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. The pace is unreal.
Reminds me of the first debate, or the election, as far as the brisk pace here.

Thank you for taking note of my post.
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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
3. rec'd and kicked.
Eloquent and clearly stated as usual, Waterman. :toast:
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
4. For all the years we looked like clowns
The joke is over smell the smoke from all around.

- Chcuk D Burn Hollywood Burn
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. We are our neighbors' keepers.
We must be steadfast in that commitment,...against the obvious obstacles presented by those who are exploiters rather than "keepers".

:hug:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. A couple years back
Rubin Carter told me a little story/poem about a group of people from different racial/ethnic backgrounds, who refused to share their sticks to make a fire to keep the group warm. I'll have to look for it in the morning. But it was good, and it made the point that those who refuse to share do not die from the cold without, they die from the cold within.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
40. They're pretty easy to spot,...
,...those who have already died from the "cold within". You can see it in their eyes, hear it in their voices, feel it in their presence.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Yes, yes.
This is true. And there are many people who are just numb. Our culture has separated from life. It has separated from feeling and caring and recognizing that you are your sibling's keeper. It is so much so that many people actually subscribe to the falsehood that this represents "human nature." It does not. It is the fall from grace, the separation from out true nature.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
7. We need people to realize that if Bushco. does this to brown people
it will do it to anyone.

If we do not express our outrage for this unacceptable homicidal administrative behavior, it will prove that they can.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4567885
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I agree.
In fact, I think it goes beyond the administration. It's what the rest of us do. We can't afford to be a nation of passive spectators.
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rumpel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
10. kick
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
11. The ruling elite want to see the lower classes fighting over the crumbs
of their collapsing Empire.

You think this disaster only concerns the Mississippi Delta? My friend, if we are not careful, very very careful, this disaster is going to come to EVERY STATE AND CITY OF THIS COUNTRY. THAT is why the citizens of New Orleans are being DENIED available food and water this very minuite.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. Gas For Driving
heating and cooking may become the next divide.
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itzamirakul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
12. Excellent analogies....Kick
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EC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
13. So why don't assholes ever think to themselves
that whatever curse it is that they believe God caused to cleanse the world, That it is really a test by God to see who is deserving by the way they react.
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Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
14. Thanks again H20 Man. n/t
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
15. I am humbled in your presence.
Thank you for taking the time to write this post.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
16.  Recommended and bookmarked with thanks, H2O Man
You said some things that needed to be said, and you said them well as usual.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
17. Some "looters" are distributing food and rescuing people:
Edited on Fri Sep-02-05 12:14 AM by Nothing Without Hope
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4568012
Thead title: Looters are distributing food to hungry at Superdome

They know that nobody else is likely to help them. It's passive genocide by our government. They won't even let other countries in to help.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #17
24. When Jor Scarborough says it,
and he is outraged by the inaction of the federal government, then you know the shit has hit the fan. Any time Joe Scarborough starts saying the same things Malcolm X said -- and he did just that last night, for an hour -- then you know this government has betrayed its trust.
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tnlefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
19. As soon as I can figure out what to do.
National disgrace doesn't begin to cover this entire scenario for me. I'm emotionally worn out.

Tomorrow is another day.

Thanks for the post.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. Our "national disgrace"
lives in that White House in Washington, DC. Our "national disgrace" who feigns being a christian. He apparently has not read Isaiah 58:7-8, "Share your bread with the hungry, and bring the homeless poor into your house; when you see the naked, cover him .... Then shall your light break forth like dawn, and your healing shall spring up speedily..." And the VP of Disgrace is avoiding that breaking light like some vampire.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
20. Kick n/t
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
21. thanks
excellent read.

Oh, how we need to change in so many ways!
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
22. People all over America are giving
Edited on Fri Sep-02-05 01:13 AM by buddyhollysghost
This is the way I see it: Bushitler thought to himself, "America doesn't care about these people. I'll show them how little they care."

He expected us to ignore the disaster he helped create.
(Hey, America ignores his other disaster in Iraq. This strategy "works" for him !)

There's only one slight problem with his calculations. Trying to One-Up Pat Robertson on the Too-Big-For-His-Britches list, he thinks he's really immune from any consequences and that most Americans are cold- hearted like he is.

Here's a clue: We're not.

I agree that the particulars of rage expressed in New Orleans have their own origins and history, but I maintain that this sort of rage is not race-specific. It is class-specific. When poor people see wealthy people "looting" the government to benefit polluting corporations and slave wage employers and war profiteers, that old trickle-down morality comes into play.

And in the communities in the state where I live, there are white gangs who cause a lot of death and destruction. Meth and poverty are also a deadly combo and these folks would be the first to turn to lawlessness and violence to survive in the event of any disaster around here. They're already surviving via those two means.

Anyhoo, good read as usual for my insomniac self. I find it hard to rest in my bed when so many babies and old people have nowhere to lay their heads.


Edit: duh
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 03:32 AM
Response to Original message
23. Well done as always H2O
It sickens me what is going on in N.O.

When you say "do what you can." what do you mean? What are you going to do? I'm sure many would follow your lead -- me included.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Yesterday I spoke
with the editorial office of the Irish Echo. No group understands the long-term implications for this more than the Irish. We need to have plans for the immediate and long-terms.

If a person can volunteer in person, there are groups like the Red Cross that can help direct your efforts. Other DUers may have better advice on that than I do.

But sending donations to one of the groups that we as individuals feel comfortable with is extremely important. If you have $2 or $2000 to donate today, is less important than that you donate today.

I think that it is important to call your congressional leaders, and express your concerns with the way that this is being handled. If they hem and hawn, and say everything that can be done is being done, tell them you watched old Joe Scarborough last night, and that he exposed that as a fiction. Old republican Joe said that the American people should not trust any politician who excuses what is going on.

Next week, the Irish Echo will have a more detailed strategy for the long-term projects that we must participate in. The national leadership of the Ancient Order of Hibernians is meeting this weekend to discuss their strategy. We don't want donations to pay for someone to sit in a plush office, insulated from what is going on. We don't need any smirking chimps to fly over in Air Force One. We will invest in the human beings on the ground.

And, of course, I'm open to any and all sincere suggestions.
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 06:29 AM
Response to Original message
27. "Old pirates, yes, they rob i..."


Won’t you help to sing
Dese songs of freedom? -
’cause all I ever had:
Redemption songs - Bob Marley
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. That's a beautiful song.
It was Bob's final message to the world.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
29. The president is exposed
as incompetent at best, and callous to the suffering of others. I mention him, not because I believe he is the source of all evil, but rather a product of it.

Yet this tragic event can lead to good. The choice is ours. Now is the time to work on investing help for the immediate crisis needs of those who are suffering. But we have another obligation.

In his essay "An Experiment in Love," Martin Luther King Jr addressed the issue of human suffering. One of the most powerful sections of this essay, which was actually part of his book "Stride Towards freedom: The Montgomery Circle," he quotes Gandhi:

"Suffering is infinitely more powerful than the law of the jungle for converting the opponent and opening his ears which are otherwise shut to the voice of reason."
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-03-05 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #29
45. Yes, * has showed us once again
just how impervious he is to other human beings' suffering. I saw his little speech on TV. He said he realized that the crisis in the Gulf states required more than just one day's attention. Is he brilliant or what? Why, he actually realized that this will be a long-term project. I'm so glad he noticed that helping people to rebuild their lives after this awful crisis was going to take a long time. For Chrissake he looked like a grade school kid addressing the public at his first class presentation or something. I'm continually amazed at his ignorance.

We can all help a little bit by sending money to the Red Cross (thanks, H, for the suggestion) an we can certainly pray for these people.

I hope that over the next several months we'll see the money being raised, and permanent housing built for those who have lost everything. Right now I would be happy just to see them all safe and comfortable, fed, clothed, and bathed. It's sickening, the lack of federal response in NO. Just illustrates how callous * is, how undeserving of the position of POTUS.

I hope that theses people will be better off in their new lives than they were in their old ones. Somehow something good has to come of this for them. It is sad beyond words what they are all going through.
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
30. Thank you.
That needed said and you said it well.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. We are at an odd time
in our nation's history. Gandhi once wrote, "Democracy can only be saved through non-violence, because democracy, so long as it is sustained by violence, cannot provide for or protect the eak. My notion of democracy is that under it the weakest should have the same opportunity as the strongest. This can never happen, except through non-violence. Western democracy, as it functions today, is diluted nazism or fascism." And that describes the potentials we face today. I think we can salvage true democracy, though the alternatives are real.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
31. Kick! n/t
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
32. There was an old America that I heard of from those now gone,
who were old when I was young. It was an America where neighbors helped each other, where the entire community rolled up its sleeves to respond when hardship fell upon any among them. Wealth and security were not individual matters, were not based on the individual's possessions. Prosperity lay in participating in the community, security was measured by the number of neighbors who would come to your aid in case of personal misfortune, or to the aid of the community at large in case of shared distress.

The stories I know are from Wisconsin. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, it was a land of immigrants; a higher percentage of Wisconsinites were foreign-born than in any other state or territory in the Union. The society was welded from Scandinavians, Germans, Celts, Poles, Italians, and many others.

These were people who allied their own interests with those of the community. They are the people who built the co-op movement and the Progressive movement. They invented unemployment insurance and Social Security.

Where have they gone, those old ones with their brogues and broken English whom I knew as a child? They would have known how to cope with New Orleans, and they would have brooked no nonsense from the pack of fools now in charge.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. I think that they
recognized the person who did the most work for the benefit of the community as a "leader." I can't imagine the people in this administration being considered anything but weak and in the way of progress.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Weak Is Too Kind A Description
I find a deviousness in everything they do. And part of what "weakness" is their complete disregard for the people of this country, fodder as HIS family views the citizens of this country. They could care less as long as those who are the Carlyle Group, Hallibuton, the pioneers and all the filthy people who make up their circle are taken care of.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. I would not argue with that.
Gandhi described three types of people. The strongest are those who are capable of great violence, but learn to curb the desire to destroy, and practice the discipline of non-violence. The second was the group of people who did not fully grasp non-violence, and continued to be violent. He spoke of a third group harshly: those who were non-violent because they were cowards.

I would add another group: cowards who use others as tools to accomplish the violent goals they are too cowardly to commit themselves to. I would include politicians who failed to serve their country in the Vietnam War, but are bold and agrressive in sending young men to Iraq today.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. "SinEaters"
I saw a program years ago, when quite young, but it stuck with me. It was a story about "sineaters", poor people who were hired by the rich to eat, and thereby accept upon themselves, the sins of their dead so that they could have absolution and go to heaven. The sineaters were the desperately poor who needed the food and the few coins they were paid for the survival of their family and themselves.

Who will B***co hire to be their sineaters?
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
38. Yes.
Peace.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
39. There is a curious
debate taking place on DU:GD this evening. It centers on if there is, or is not, some degree of MIHOP or LIHOP regarding the tragic events with the hurricane.

I have respect for the two individuals who started the dueling threads, and who have ventured onto each other's threads. But I do not understand what they are arguing about. (Or I do, which might be less satisfying.)

Gandhi said, "Impure means results in an impure end." That would seem to define this administration .... including their behavior in the past five days.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. In regards to LIHOP, the way I see it
is that BushCo deliberately stalled for as long as possible before responding to the disaster. This is the same behavior they exhibited on 9-11. Stall and hide until the worst has passed and as many people as possible have died. LIHOP is their MO and they are very good at taking full advantage of these events to assure the worst possible outcome. Nice folks.

In regards to this thread, once again you hit the nail on the head. We must all do whatever we can to help each other, it is the only way we can beat these bastards.

PBWY
DYEW
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. I agree.
It's not that different than the bump-on-a-log attitude that Washington too often takes when there is famine in Africa. There aren't "weather machines" that are set to cause a drought. (There is, however, an industrial/high-tech culture that has at very least added significantly to global warming. And that creates an increase in drought and in the intensity of hurricanes.) But there are conscious choices made, that result in food & water not reaching the suffering in time to save their lives to the degree we could.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-03-05 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
44. The important questions that everyone has been avoiding are finally,...
,...being unavoidably shoved in this nation's face. Nature confronting our real priorities and values.

We avoided the truth and have been forced to face it,...whether willingly or not.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-03-05 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
46. I'll drink to that H2Oman! nominated nt
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