I have altered my position somewhat on looting

[bluestateguy]

I earlier posted that looters who steal luxury, non-essential items should be punished harshly.

I no longer believe that. It no longer matters if TV sets or iPod's get stolen anymore because they probably can't be transported out of the city anyway, if they even work anymore. In any event saving lives must be the highest priority.

Now, people who take advantage of the situation to commit violent, predatory crimes like rape and armed robbery, they need to be stopped. I don't know how common these reports are, but we can't get help to the people who need it if a small band of criminals are allowed to take advantage of this tragedy.

[tk2kewl]

1. witnessing utter devastation on TV can do that to you...

Then think about this...

Have you ever been oppressed? Kept down? Not given opportunities while the kids on the other side of town have everything handed to them?

And then, after generations of that, had your government turn its back on you in your most desperate time of need? While your family fights for its survival?

I could see someone very easily thinking taking a TV was the justice they were owed.

[fleabert]

4. well said. I agree wholeheartledly.

[evilqueen]

53. Yeah, I can see doing that.

Although, since television is crap, I'd be more tempted to steal computer gear of all kinds, and probably camping equipment.

[uppityperson]

2. I agree with you about this. Well stated.

[Tom Kitten]

3. welcome

to the world of moral relativism....

[blue northern]

55. aka bitter reality n/t

[1932]

5. I'll alert the media.

[moondust]

14. There's always gotta be

a SMARTASS in the crowd!

:rofl:

[puddycat]

6. but don't you get it? these people are the same ones who are raping etc.

these are predators. As someone who lives in a big city I am outraged at the lack of compassion many people are showing for people who are the law-abiding citizens. I put myself in their place and imagine what life would be like if there were roaming gangs looting and pillaging and raping--and I would shoot to kill. And anyone who has any brains would, too. It makes me sick to constantly hear people defend these thugs.

When civilization breaks down, like it has with these looters, and you are caught up in the midst of it, then get back to me. Because I'm sure you will have changed your mind again.

Check out this link:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/n/a/2005/09/01/national/a155306D82.DTL&type=printable

The city is in ANARCHY. Rescue workers can't function. Do you think the looters are different people than the ones shooting, raping, killing, threatening the rescue workers? think again.

I am beginning to get really angry at the STUPIDITY of defending criminals.
It makes me want to puke to hear the defense of these animals who are keeping decent people from getting help. These criminals could have chosen another path--and although I blame the government for not responding quickly, that does not excuse total anarchy and the behavior of thugs. It scares me to death if something happens in my city to know that so many people will be sympathizing with the people trying to rob me.

[Solon]

7. You don't understand do you?

Not all of these "looters" are raping and pillaging. Some are RESCUING people, others collecting food and water for many other people. These people have stolen, yes, but for VALID reasons. Would you steal a unoccupied boat to rescue a child stranded on a roof? Would you steal water or food for another person, family or neighbor? If not, I doubt your humanity.

[puddycat]

11. Did you bother to read the article about ANARCHY in NO? U R CLUELESS

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/n/a/2005/09/01/national/a155306D82.DTL&type=printable

Why are you defending criminal behavior? The criminals are preventing rescue workers from doing their jobs for God's sakes and people like YOU are encouraging the crimes.

[1932]

16. Why do you have so much anger and hardness in your heart at a time

like this?

Why are you criticizing people for not being more angry and vengeful?

Maybe people just see so much suffering and fee primarily sympathy.

[puddycat]

34. the question is, why do YOU hate the law-abiding souls in NO??????

You defend the criminal element. Frankly my dear that is SICK

[1932]

36. if you had a real argument, you wouldn't have to be a table turner.

The logical inconsistency of your post is its own reply.

[puddycat]

41. by your own defense of looters you are burying NO. READ THIS LINK

11:29 P.M. - (AP): Col. Henry Whitehorn, chief of the Louisiana State Police, said he heard of numerous instances of New Orleans police officers - many of whom from flooded areas - turning in their badges.

"They indicated that they had lost everything and didn't feel that it was worth them going back to take fire from looters and losing their lives," Whitehorn said.

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html

[1932]

45. Except that I didn't defend looters. That's just a wish that your heart

made. Your sweet heart.

[Tinoire]

43. I don't hate law-abiding souls in NO but I do hate ALL

"compassionate conservatives".

The funniest part is how slick some of them think they are, how kind, how compassionate. Self-righteous pricks if you ask me.

[Solon]

19. You never been in a situation like this before, have you?

Look, NO ONE is defending those that are shooting in the streets, robbing people at gun or knife point, or raping women. That's idiocy, but there are other stories, those of men and women who stole a shitload of food from flooded and abandoned grocery stores, and distributing the food to the needy. There are also stories of other people, criminals by your definition, who stole speedboats and rescued tourists and children from roofs of homes and businesses. Do these people not deserve the benefit of the doubt?

I had friends and family that did similar things during the Flood of '93, because they HAD to, and to this day, I'm PROUD of their actions. Citizens, in dire straights, sometimes need to help themselves and their neighbors, to SURVIVE. NOT EVERYONE LEFT IN NEW ORLEANS IS A FUCKING THUG, DAMMIT!!!!!!!

[tkmorris]

28. You know, you are insulting

Try settling down a second and think about things.

Please try to understand that I do not desire in any way to defend looting non-survival items. Such people are engaging in petty theft and if they can be caught and punished for said crime WITHOUT drawing energy away from relief/rescue efforts, well that's fine.

What I think you fail to grasp though is that many such people draw a distinction between crimes against businesses and crimes against people. Looting a TV from an abandoned store is a non-violent crime and is often commited by people who wouldn't even consider harming another person. Are there people in NO and everywhere else who would and do commit violence against people? OF COURSE. That isn't the point though. You seem to have a perverse need to lump all these people into one giant homogenous mass. It isn't so.

[puddycat]

37. this need to defend criminal behavior is so perverse

This perverse need to excuse criminal behavior is sick, and believe me it does not help the ordinary citizen even in normal times. People are dying and being raped and cops shot at and all some people are doing is defending the criminal behavior? its nuts. Its like living in bizzaro world.

[Child_Of_Isis]

9. For some reason,

I don't believe it. I think it is being used as an excuse not to save these people. If it were that dangerous, someone in the media would have been killed by now.

[puddycat]

13. the media have armed guards now, or haven't you heard. n/t

[Child_Of_Isis]

33. The stations that I have been watching

are not showing these "thugs" and gangs, just everyday grief stricken folks.

[mixedview]

10. exactly. theft is the same mentality as rape. they only differ in degree

both crimes involve taking from someone who won't or can't defend against it... they are abusing simply because they could.

It has little to do with class or race, and more to do with exploitative, abusive bullies vs decent human beings.

Authority is the only thing preventing bullies from beating up everyone else - just like in high school.

[oasis]

18. Must eat, must have sex. Yes, got it.

:eyes:

[mixedview]

29. No, you don't "got it". I was condemning, not excusing. /nt

[SofaKingLiberal]

21. did you just equate taking water and food

from a store or using an abandoned boat to save a life with rape?

Tell me I misread that.

I know there is a criminal element at work here, but they are in the minority.

[mixedview]

26. No - I'm not talking about that type of theft

which is out of necessity for basics in a time of extreme crisis - and by neccessity I mean the strict definition of necessity - not "oh, I am oppressed, so I deserve to take a TV".

[SofaKingLiberal]

32. OK, I read too much into that

Sorry, I'm just about to lose it here. I've never been this pissed off before.

[SofaKingLiberal]

22. .

[SofaKingLiberal]

23. .

[Ms. Clio]

54. That is such complete crap, no criminologist would agree

Jesus it's getting thick in here.

I can only hope and pray you find yourself in their shoes someday.

[1932]

12. I find this attitude so unchristian.

Now is not the time to be criticizing people whose hearts are filled with sympathy for not being harder.

Save the morallizing for later. Now is time to focus on other things.

[puddycat]

17. "unChristian"? That's a compliment considering how Christians have acted

considering how Christians have been acting in this nation I take it as a compliment to know I'm not like them. Thank you.

By the way, I believe that you defending criminals is a slap in the face to every single decent person dying or dead in New Orleans. How that for telling it like it is? It sickens me to hear the filthy defense of criminals. YOU ALL SHOULD BE ASHAMED. PEOPLE ARE DYING BECAUSE OF THIS ANARCHY AND ALL YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT IS DEFENDING CRIMINAL THUGS.

[1932]

20. Having more sympathy for victims than hatred for criminals AT THIS MOMENT

doesn't mean I'm defending criminality.

It means that my heart-felt response to this is deep sadness for the victims. Unlike a few at DU, I don't have a ghoulish hateful obsession with criminals.

Some of the people here who have been obsessed with the criminals have posted NOTHING but comments about how others aren't hating enough. It's sick.

[puddycat]

31. No, what you are posting is sick.What part of anarchy don't you understand

exactly what part of anarchy don't you understand? I never said I "hated" criminals. In fact, in the past I have contributed quite a lot to try to make prisoner's lives better because I knew a fellow who worked in a prison. but this is a different situation--its an extraordinary circumstance where there is a total breakdown of society. What fucking part of that don't you understand?

In those circumstances, the government has to come in and take back control from the criminal element. They have to.

Your kind of attitude is causing so much more grief to the law-abiding citizens who are dying and need help.

[1932]

35. I don't understand how a fringe of DU'ers can be so obsessed

with constant reference to criminality when I see hours of footage of people on the news, nobody getting shot or threatened, waiting for help, wondering where help is, starving and dying.

It is ridiculous to think that the media can reach these people, that these people can be free from violent attack for all the hours the media is around them, but that our government can't get them out of New Orleans.

That's the story to me. The obsession with criminality is perverse.

[oasis]

38. Perhaps they were bullied during early childhood. The internet gives

them an opportunity to safely get back at the "bad people".

:spank: "Take that, Mr. Looter."

[puddycat]

40. read this link about police taking fire from looters. If you can read.

11:29 P.M. - (AP): Col. Henry Whitehorn, chief of the Louisiana State Police, said he heard of numerous instances of New Orleans police officers - many of whom from flooded areas - turning in their badges.

"They indicated that they had lost everything and didn't feel that it was worth them going back to take fire from looters and losing their lives," Whitehorn said.

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html

[1932]

44. I have read all the stories, and the ones I find compelling are the ones

about people trying to do the right thing --walking three deays to Jefferson Parish -- and finding NOTHING there, no FEMA, no food tents, no place to stay, so these LAW ABIDING desperate citizens get packed in the jail and have cops stand around them with rifles.

Did you see that story on NewsHour tonight? Did you ignore it because it didn't fit into your obsessive paradigm for seeing this event.

The DU'ers here who can think of nothing else but the stories about criminality, and have to interject comments, I just wonder where your heart is.

Why the need to be so angry at everyone who is moved by something other than your obsession?

And by the way, that story you just quoted -- that's hearsay. I'd like to hear for myself what the cops who turned in their badges say about their first-hand experience BEFORE I MAKE THIS STORY MY OBSESSIVE DEFINING STORY OF THIS EVENT.

I don't doubt that there's truth to that story, but I'm much more moved by stories where I'm looking into the eyes of the people trying to tell their stories, and I've seen 100s of those stories, and I've yet to see a non-hearsay story about lawlessness. Again, not saying it's not happening, but I will say that people who aren't moved by all these other stories that they're hearing first hand from the victims that have nothing to do with crime, yet are moved by second and third hand stories about criminality clearly have a strong desire to see the world through some very conservative lenses.

[1932]

49. puddycat, when you reas a story about a survivior who wasn't the vicitim

of a crime at the hands of another surivior, do you feel disappointment?

[political_invader]

51. The only LAWLESSNESS Ive seen

is from the lack of Congress and the White House. Excuse me I don't remember her name, the woman who was on life support in Florida, Congress called an emergency session on a sunday night. It has been 4 days and they had 3 days notice before landfall. Where is congress?
You would think some one would speak out until tonight we have heard more from Harry Conic Jr. then the White House.

Peace from a Blue State !!

[1932]

24. Having more sympathy for victims than hatred for criminals AT THIS MOMENT

doesn't mean I'm defending criminality.

It means that my heart-felt response to this is deep sadness for the victims. Unlike a few at DU, I don't have a ghoulish hateful obsession with criminals.

Some of the people here who have been obsessed with the criminals have posted NOTHING but comments about how others aren't hating enough. It's sick.

[CottonBear]

8. Mr CB & I came to that conclusion several days ago.

I told people at work today "no defending the NRA and the right of rich whites to carry weapons and then say it's wrong for poor black folks to defend themselves in a situation of anarchy." My co-worker, a formerArmy Blackhawk helicopter pilot could not disagree. I said they can take food, water, medicine, drugs and guns ad wahtever else they need to survive and defend themselves. (murder, rape and carjacking NOT OK)

[puddycat]

27. did you read the article? this is total ANARCHY

you see, by defending and encouraging looting by criminals, its a slippery slope which leads into the anarchy that exists now. You should be totally ashamed. Very few people are simply looting for necessities. Read the reports and the eyewitness accounts and look at the videos. People are being raped and murdered. You think these looters of tv sets are just good folks who want to watch tv while they are waiting for rescue? Give me a break.

I hate this kind of defense of criminality by people who live safely ensconsed in their little suburban enclaves.

[Solon]

46. Get off your damned high horse...

You live in Maryland for crying out loud, where the hell do you get off on this shit. YOU HAVEN'T lived through this, seeing others losing homes and lives to the rising waters, or seeing the landscape of your home town permanently change due to disaster. Get out of your enclave and look at the real world before you go spouting off.

BTW: I have seen this type of shit before, where people's homes are literally swept away to the currents, where people themselves are swept away never to be seen again. Does it compare to New Orleans? No of course not, but I understand them much better than you can possibly imagine, so STFU!!!!!!

This is where I live, and what it looked like, during one of our worst floods:



I barely lucked out, the flood waters weren't quite high enough to affect my immediate family personally, but others were not so lucky, and we were out of electricity for well over a month. I live right where that deep dip in the Missouri river floodplain ends, right at the edge.

[oasis]

15. Posters who have expressed outrage by the "criminality" they've witnessed

would do the same damn thing if in a similar situation. Not one of them would stand idly by while their family dehydrates and/or goes hungry.

I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of these "anti-looter" posters were victims of bullies in their early childhood. Through the miracle of the internet,they get a chance to get back at the "bad people".

:spank: "Take that, Mr. Looter.

[Wizard777]

25. This is the conundrum with this activity.

There are real resourceful hero's canabalizing existing supplies to cover the lack of outside aid. There are also profiteers. No better than Bush & Cheney themselves. They are foing the Ofe to Bush and Cheney. What about me? This isn't fair! I've had enough and now I want my share! Can't you see? They take more than they give. Then you have the lil Feudal Warlords wanting to begin the insurgency. Turn NOLA into west Iraq.

We have some people in Mississippi that are slowly returning to where their homes used to be. They are grateful for and clinging to that one or few things that are salvageable. Then we have this dual petyness in New Orleans.

We need to establish a VISIBLE presence in NOLA. These people need to see hope. Then we can get to sorting the Good from the Bad and shoot the just plain ugly if that is how they want to go. But we have to be able tell who is who. When the Good proving internal aid get sight of external aid. They'll join the effort. The Bad profiteers will run and hide. The Ugly wannabe warlords will open fire. Give the bastards both barrles.

[Wizard777]

30. This is the conundrum with this activity.

There are real resourceful hero's canabalizing existing supplies to cover the lack of outside aid. There are also profiteers. No better than Bush & Cheney themselves. They are foing the Ofe to Bush and Cheney. What about me? This isn't fair! I've had enough and now I want my share! Can't you see? They take more than they give. Then you have the lil Feudal Warlords wanting to begin the insurgency. Turn NOLA into west Iraq.

We have some people in Mississippi that are slowly returning to where their homes used to be. They are grateful for and clinging to that one or few things that are salvageable. Then we have this dual petyness in New Orleans.

We need to establish a VISIBLE presence in NOLA. These people need to see hope. Then we can get to sorting the Good from the Bad and shoot the just plain ugly if that is how they want to go. But we have to be able tell who is who. When the Good proving internal aid get sight of external aid. They'll join the effort. The Bad profiteers will run and hide. The Ugly wannabe warlords will open fire. Give the bastards both barrles.

[puddycat]

39. LINK. Nola Police resigning. Sick of taking fire from looters

11:29 P.M. - (AP): Col. Henry Whitehorn, chief of the Louisiana State Police, said he heard of numerous instances of New Orleans police officers - many of whom from flooded areas - turning in their badges.

"They indicated that they had lost everything and didn't feel that it was worth them going back to take fire from looters and losing their lives," Whitehorn said.

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html


so, go ahead people, keep defending these looters. You'll end up just burying New Orleans forever. I'm tired of trying to talk sense into you.

[bluestateguy]

42. If they shoot at police then kill 'em

Not because they are looters, but because they shot at police, then my sympathy for them is gone.

[Rhiannon12866]

47. I tend to agree with you. I never thought I'd feel this way, either. Ever.

But these are desperate times. The most powerful and democratic nation in the world has been brought to third-world status by a natural disaster that they could have prepared for, but didn't. All bets are suddenly off and it's a new reality, for those on the ground, and also for those of us who watch and wait, holding our collective breath.:-(

[political_invader]

48. HOW can anyone be mad at this looting?

There is people dying, they haven't eaten or anything to drink (water)in 4-5 days. Whether a its a tv or an ipod I don't care if its a pencil they need all they can get to trade or barter, just to try to make a difference in their lives Now. Will people just think " what would you be doing if it was you?"

I'll tell you when it comes to my family I would be doing anything I could to get out of there, and if it means looting something ( food, water, and ie.. clothes) in-order to help my family in this situation you can't blame me. Nor do I blame any of them.

Anything of value is worth its weight in gold.

People think this is beginning to resemble 1930s Europe. Armed Military stopping AMERICANS from walking down the street to safety,turning people away with guns. Are you kidding who cares about the looting. All they want is FOOD and WATER.

If the people we have entrusted to something in this situation do nothing, then it is up to us to do for ourselves.
How is that wrong thinking ?

Peace from a Blue State !!

[sandnsea]

50. Same mistake made in Iraq

They should have ignored the first small attacks and focused on getting services to the people. Instead, they put all effort into "putting down" the insurgents. They then had people who were mad about the lack of power, health care, etc; AND the people who were mad about homes being searched, innocent family members picked up, and all of that. It's stupid and we still haven't learned. I don't understand the obsession in this country with "stuff". Who the fuck cares? We should have had everyone out by now if they had just continued to go about the business of saving people.

[political_invader]

52. Well said n/t