LIHOP? MIHOP? Come on folks. Take a breath and think.

[WilliamPitt]

This is all ass-backwards.

You look at this and believe they were either waiting for a major metropolitan city to get wrecked by a hurricane, or saw this happening and said, "Now is our chance."

How about this: They fucked up. When you downsize the government's ability to respond to a crisis, when you gut the budget, when you send half the first-responders to Iraq with all their equipment, you cripple any ability to respond swiftly.

It is LIHOP to the extent that these Norquist disciples wanted tiny ineffective federal government, and this is what you get from that formula. Beyond that, these crazy-ass ideas that they were laying in wait for this to try out marial law and/or annihilate an African-American voting bloc are just that: Crazy-ass.

This is the LAST thing these Bush people wanted. The petroleum supply is oozing down the Mississippi, and is creating skyrocketing prices all across the country. Politics 101 says people vote their wallets, and their wallets are getting clobbered. The media is encamped in the city and showing what happens when downsized government fails its people. Also, the subject of Iraq and "Why are we over there when people need help here?" is all the talk across the entire spectrum.

This was not a deliberate act, excepting the fact that this is the basic outcome of conservative fiscal/foreign policy. If you email this stuff to the mainstream media, they will chuckle and shake their heads and hit delete...exactly as they should.

EDIT TO ADD: I do firmly believe that they delayed the supplies in order to coincide their arrival with Bush's photo-op. That's Politics 102: When you fuck up, indulge in some political theater.

[mzmolly]

1. I agree. It's simply an example of the need for competency in the White

House.

It also highlights the priorities of Republicans (fend for yourself and give tax cuts to the wealthy) vs. Democrats (think ahead, prevent tragedy and respond when shit happens.)

[Eloriel]

191. Well, since THIS thread is on the Greatest Page lineup

but my thread, to which this is a sort of response, has disappeared, I figured it'd be a good idea to post a link to my thread:

***ATTN DU RESEARCHERS -- LIHOP/MIHOP evidence stacking up
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4588088&mesg_id=4588088

[bpilgrim]

222. the 5 DAY LIHOP media Archive ----------- ------------- --- > LINK

http://news.globalfreepress.com/gallery/index.php?cat=19

peace

[longship]

Recommended

:kick:ed

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

2. Never attribute to malice...

What can be explained by incompetence.

[Moochy]

17. Malicious Willfull Incompetence

But isnt this just a semantic distinction at this point?

Such willful ignorance and incompetence is not good policy but what if that was the point? To the extent that govt. is vilified as the faceless enemy these policies help.

Another point I feel is salient, is that the Bush folks are not preening any candidates as successors yet. This is important to me, because the normal considerations for political manuevering are out the window. Sure the current admin is aware of the effect on the 2008 presidential elections, but what does it matter to them? By them I mean the ones sitting at the cabinet meetings.

[Eloriel]

129. That's just it. PRECISELY it.

In my view, this goes way beyond incompetence.

When people and organizations are actively prevented from getting there, that's not incompetence.

YMMV. :shrug: But I don't think such a view as yours (if it is your view) passes the common sense test.

[SmokingJacket]

138. the two are not mutually exclusive. nt

[struggle4progress]

183. I've seen too many crooks plead incompetence to think it a good excuse.

[tavalon]

3. Yup

This is a fuck up. Plain and simple. No tin foil hats needed (with the exception of the strange delay in getting supplies in, which seem to be getting in now that the Chimperor has arrived) here. This is a snafu that has become fubar.

[ClusterFreak]

4. You are absolutely right.

People have to get off that conspiracy shit. This was a natural disaster, the aftermath worsened exponentially by a deprioritization of critical FEMA projects in the NO area. Period.

[Eric J in MN]

5. Bush and Cheney don't like high gas prices?

They're friends are making a fortune.

[WilliamPitt]

8. True enough

but the political ramifications of those prices will outweigh the smiles on their friends faces.

[CantGetFooledAgain]

56. They don't care about votes.

Despite getting fewer votes in 2000, and quite possibly fewer in 2004, they're still in office and more powerful than ever.

They commit felonies with absolute impunity. There is no such thing as a "political ramification" with this crowd.

It's all about the money. Death and chaos are great for profiteering. That's what's going on here.

[Eric J in MN]

103. They will lower gas prices this time next year, for the sake

of the 2006 elections.

[Prodemsouth]

122. How come they are so smug.

Any President in the old America, before 2000, would be in full panic over these gas prices and this disaster occuring on his watch. Why is Bush so smug.

[Lerkfish]

6. whether malicious or incompetent, still unqualified to lead.

[BlueStateBlue]

224. Bush is not qualified to hold ANY white collar job! n/t

[On the Road]

7. Incompetence Abounds

There are many historical examples. Bush's staff makes a Potemkin village out of the whole county. He has no idea what's going on.

Read what Paul O'Neil said about Bush's cabinet meetings. If that's how he runs things, none of this is surprising.

[Swamp Rat]

9. Fucking bastards let my people die... let my city drown.

Was it on purpose? I believe so... :mad:

:cry:

[sonicx]

10. "annihilate an African-American voting bloc are just that"

doin it for decades

[ultraist]

207. There is an insideous form of genocide of Blacks going on this country

And there always has been. The lack of response was NOT merely about our resources being spread too thin and incompetence. If that were the case, why are they now, five days later, able to get some resources in? Did they discover some resources they thought we didn't have? BS.

They intentionally delayed and were apathetic and left THOUSANDS to die because the large majority of them were poor and BLACK.

Are people here actually denying that racism was a factor in this? Pathetic.

As Jesse Jackson said, we have an extremely high threshold of tolerance for Black pain in this country and a long history of such. It never ceases to amaze me that educated, supposed liberals are in such denial about racism.

[jane_pippin]

11. Thank you. This is what happens when arrogance, cronyism and ego

are more important than leadership and competence.

Based on this bunch of fuck-ups and their track records, it was bound to happen.

[SmokingJacket]

12. Response to Hurricane Ivan in Florida was strong and instant.

I too want to believe that the delayed response was sheer incompetence... but keep reading, Will. So many people who wanted to help were turned away. An entire flotilla of boats that could have evacuated Charity hospital was turned away. Compare reaction to this particular disaster to other disasters. I don't understand it.

I don't know what to think, but I'm keeping my mind open. Did Bush want to punish Landrieu and NO, a very blue city? Sounds nutty -- but less nutty than the bizarre behavior of the president, who strummed a guitar while grandmothers drowned in their attics.

I don't think there's any need to "try out" martial law -- they essentially have it in Iraq. But I MIGHT consider that this is a trial run of The New Normal: government ain't gonna help you if you don't play by the rules.

[WilliamPitt]

15. Ivan did not hit a below-sea-level city

[SmokingJacket]

97. ???? Even more reason to respond quickly. nt

[LoZoccolo]

13. Sadly, the denial starts already.

When will our progressive columnists learn, that they are supposed to write for us and bring up the charges we want them to make, rather than write to the mushy middle who will ask questions and demand thorough explanations for what we propose?

[WilliamPitt]

Oh give me a break

I should write a column about one of the 9/11 planes shooting a missile into the Tower because some loopy folks believe it to be true.

I'm thinking that if pointing out the spherical (as in 'from all concievable angles') failure of conservative fiscal doctrine, as evidenced by this disaster, if pointing out the disastrous war in Iraq helped to make this worse, is now the 'mushy middle,' and that I have to accuse Bush et al. of deliberately waiting for a hurricane to strike a specific city in a specific way so he could try martial law on for size, if that is what you're selling, I am not buying.

How about this? You write it. Those of us who work in hard journalism have this pesky desire to actually report facts and not just spray bullshit.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

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[SmokingJacket]

96. Darling Swamp Rat....

I'm so sorry that this happened to your city. New Orleans is the most beautiful, charmed, magical, crazy, gorgeous city in the world -- at least as far as I can tell. No reaction to what has happened there is too much, too out-there, too strong.

Please don't be quiet about it.

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

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[LoZoccolo]

55. I'll try my hand at writing it, sure. Here's my column.

THE FLOOD THAT BUSH* CAUSED

Anyone who has their ears open to the Bush Crime Family and their doings will instantly realize the handiwork of their PNAC agenda in the floods that happened in New Orleans. To deny that and intentional hand was at work in this imbroglio is to set the people who should be convicts in the mess Scott free. It is like denying that they caused the Iraq war, which they lied about WMD, for which there is no denial.

One only has to ask who benefits in order to find out who is responsible for this tragedy and many otheres. Bush* has had his approval rating skyrocket ten points as a result of the mushy middle who are most likely to deny that Bush* made it happen on purpose as they stand for nothing and demand the facts before making a decision on what they stand for. To deny that Bush* has benefited from it is to deny this ten-point skyrocket in approval rations, which is a tautology, a statement which is necessarily true. If it is necessarily true, then how can it be false?

Faced with this undeniable truth, many choose to shy away and bury their head in the sand, instead preferring on other Democratic leaders to help them with criticisms of Bush*'s public policies rather than investigations into Prescott Bush and the history of eugenics which started in America, and how that led to the levies not getting fixed. Yet even these leaders hang out with Bush* at Bohemian Grove every year, a secret club where the power elite gathers every year to watch things be set on fire and laugh with each other (are they laughing at the destruction?). The ceremony is "cremation of care" because they assure each other that they no longer care. And when they no longer care, they no longer care about we the people who are mostly progressive and waiting for a leader to step up before we find ourselves in the voting booth.

So in conclusion, if you do not see the work of the hands of the BFEE, or even have to ask what BFEE stands for, then you need to wake up and ask a progressive, because we are changing this country and you need to know where the people are marching.

[LiberalUprising]

174. Excellent LZ

YOU should be a journalist.

The 'mushy middle' pieces are so lame, apologists all. Hell if I wanna read that I can go to CNN, MSNBC.......

[LoZoccolo]

194. You really think so?

Um...I wrote that as a joke.

[Name removed]

198. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LiberalUprising]

211. OK now that I've made a complete fool of myself,

I think it's time for a break.

Must stop skimming.....

Carry on

[slay]

238. NICE!

Fuckin-a Bohemian Grove - most people don't even know about those people - who are actually the ones running the show! Glad to see more and more of us know what's really going on. :evilgrin:

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LiberalUprising]

176. Strawman eh? So what are the 'facts' of 911

I have yet to see any iron clad facts about what happened on 911.

The plane shooting a missle into the pentagon makes as much sense as anything I've heard from our goverment.

I don't believe anyone is saying they deliberatly waited for a huuricane, only that they used it to their advantage.

[DistressedAmerican]

159. ...

:hi:

[katinmn]

206. ...

:hi:

[instantkarma]

195. "Our" progressive columnists

are "supposed to write for us and bring up the charges we want them to make..."? Wow. That's one of the most fucked-up statements I've ever read on this website.

[LoZoccolo]

197. Isn't it though?

Keep reading this sub-thread! :)

[jus_the_facts]

14. Here's reality in New Orleans.....politics be goddamned.....

"They have M-16s and they're locked and loaded," she said. "These troops know how to shoot and kill, and they are more than willing to do so, and I expect they will."

Friday, September 2, 2005; 7:23 AM

NEW ORLEANS -- An explosion jolted residents awake early Friday, illuminating the pre-dawn sky with red and orange flames over the city where corpses rotted along flooded sidewalks and bands of armed thugs thwarted fitful rescue efforts.

Congress was rushing through a $10.5 billion aid package, the Pentagon promised 1,400 National Guardsmen a day to stop the looting and President Bush planned to visit the region. But city officials were seething with anger about what they called a slow federal response following the devastation left by Hurricane Katrina.



A SWAT team drives past flood victims waiting at the Convention Center in New Orleans, Thursday, Sept. 1, 2005. Officials called for a mandatory evacuation of the city, but many resident remained in the city and had to be rescued from flooded homes and hotels and remain in the city awaiting a way out. (AP Photo/Eric Gay) (Eric Gay - AP)
"They don't have a clue what's going on down there," Mayor Ray Nagin told WWL-AM Thursday night.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...

[txindy]

16. Open your eyes. The supplies have been on the city's borders for a day

Or longer. No, it's just coincidence. Keep telling yourself that.

[Moochy]

20. Whatever you do, don't offend the newspaper editors!

But the newspaper editors will delete your message!!

[WilliamPitt]

28. No, it isn't coincidence

They held the stuff back to coincide it with Bush's arrival. That's craven political theater, not MIHOP martial law pre-planned.

[sonicx]

31. LIHOP doesn't need a pre-plan

tragedy hits...drag your feet to help. simple.

[goclark]

93. I agree it's ...DTF and LIH

They are so arrogant and sure that whatever they do will be fixed by Diebold that they don't have to plan it step by step.

All they need to do is DRAG THEIR FEET and LET IT HAPPEN.

Did they cause the hurricane? No, they just drag their feet on global warming and yawn.

Did they realize that NOrleans had a black mayor,Democrat and a Democrat for a Gov. when Katrina hit? Huum, maybe they didn't even think about that for about 2 minutes but then it was..."help out Trent Lott/hope to sit on his new porch" and for all those Black people in New Orleans, DTF and LIH.

[txindy]

59. I don't think it was pre-planned martial law, either. It's worse.

Supplies and help were deliberately kept from those people. That's conspiracy, at best. Murder, too. People DIED from their negligence.

[belle]

203. No arguments there. They're "malignant narcissists."

It's possible to believe both that a) they are not so much evil masterminds as total fuckups and b) the fact that they are fuckups does not mean that they aren't evil, just not masterminds.

[Desertrose]

18. C'mon Will...open your eyes

the evidence is really all right out there.

[TNOE]

27. Yep agree DR

and remember Will - you were saying the same stuff after 9/11 - YOU REFUSED TO BELIEVE until the evidence was enormous. Sorry - you are not always right about everything - you only have opinions - just like the rest of us here.

Edited to add: HALLIBURTON to do the clean up - and oil profits soaring - yea right, this is really bad for them. They don't have to worry about winning elections - they have the voting machines - remember?

[Eloriel]

155. Thanks for answering a question I had on my mind

I didn't remember one way or another:

nd remember Will - you were saying the same stuff after 9/11 - YOU REFUSED TO BELIEVE until the evidence was enormous.

[WilliamPitt]

36. No, it really isn't

One of the most interesting aspects of the internet is the ability for people to pull together disparate threads and make them appear to be part of a coherent whole.

Look at all the conspiracies surrounding Andy Stephenson. Those ghould had a link for each accusation, twisted just enough to make it look like puzzle pieces coming together. It wasn't a conspiracy, all of their premises were wrong, but they managed to cobble together something that looked like a coherent whole.

The facts are not there. There are barge-sized holes in this, starting with this: This is the worst thing to happen to the Bush administration since they showed up. Period. That does not jibe with MIHOP.

[titoresque]

51. ANDY STEPHENSON???????

Ok, seriously I wonder about you Will.......WTF? You know I havent been here long (on DU) true, but whenever I do see you around here you're always talking about how everyone on here is tinfoil.....not worth your time.......crazy.......Why do you start these threads?
You seem like a really smart guy, and yet you can't grasp small things like this? And Andy Stephenson? You can't get that? Makes me wonder. I mean if you're seriously going to minimize his death .......which is what you did to completely disregard any conspiracy.......at least have the decency to admit that the man was treated terribly by A LOT of people.....becasue of the research he was doing!

[WilliamPitt]

57. That's the point

Take the caps-lock off and read again. The people who attacked Andy were able to do so effectively because they were able to cobble together wild-ass bits of "evidence" and make it all seem like a conspiracy. It was a textbook example of a conspiracy theory based on nonsense, but crafted to convince just enough people that it got momentum. That is what is happening here.

I don't disregard conspiracies...but I sure as shit don't believe every one that comes down the pike. Christ, there are people in this thread talking about deliberate weather control. Come on.

[titoresque]

70. yeah well when you

have a Govt. that seems it will really do anything to further the One World agenda. 9/11, Madrid, London, oh hell, the list is too long. When there is evidence apon evidence and then we see the media cover-up......Im just saying, I don't know for sure, and neither does anyone else here...but LIHOP-MIHOP is really not a stretch.
Have you researched Chem-trails? That IS part of weather control. There is evidence of weather control as far back as the 50's. But please understand I am not arguing LIHOP-MIHOP....I'm only puzzled by why you would think these theories would be so far out to space considering this admin. and all that they have done in the past? And then I remember....your first post when you talk about "the voting bloc" and I see where your mind is still set. Sorry, you're wrong.

[Warren Stupidity]

201. If they intend to do in constitutional government

they need an excuse to declare martial law. To do that they need to create a subgroup angry enough about their condition that they will provide the justification. I say that they took advantage of 9-11: that much is indisputable. I say that they encouraged the development of an insurgency in Iraq in order to justify the permanent occupation of that strategic region of the middle east. It simply is not out of bounds to suspect that they are doing the same thing right here. What, they wouldn't stoop that low? Really?

[smurfygirl]

19. i took a breath and i thought for a moment

and i still think they did not respond right away on purpose. it's been 5 days. 5 days. i just witnessed my government let these people die of thirst...is this punishment for Terri? or are they just evil...

[Pachamama]

139. They are evil...this was genocide....Believe it...I do...

Our sisters and brothers are dying...the majority of dead will have died since Wednesday due to dehydration and lack of medicine, food and supplies. That's just the first big wave of dead...the next will be the ones struck by the disease from the sewage and rotting corpses. If all those helicopters and supplies that are now there with Bush upon his arrival had been there 3-4 days ago, the death toll would have been 50-75% less than it will be.

Mothernature didn't cause those deaths....George W. Bush did and his incompetent administration...

THIS WAS LET TO HAPPEN....ON PURPOSE, EVEN IF THAT PURPOSE WAS JUST PLAIN INCOMPETENCE, NEGLECT OR LACK OF CARING....

:grr:

[titoresque]

21. sorry, don't agree

I don't think they really give a shit about the voting bloc.....they steal votes. Up until a couple days ago they pretty much had the Media somehow by the balls...and you better believe that there will be many reporters and anchors who lose their jobs or are "reassigned" when this is all over, and they WILL get the media under control! And our country is controlled by a much more powerful group than the Repub WH. soooo LIHOP-MIHOP........doesnt really matter, it's happening! But these slimy motherfuckers are so low I won't put anything past them as far as what's to come. We better all watch out, and KNOW that your Govt. is not your friend!

[Jeanette in FL]

22. I beg to disagree

The technology for weather manipulation has been out there since the 1960s. Haven't we seen reports about the Russians being able to control weather and even offering to "exorcise" major typhoons. Even to change the jetstream over Siberia in order to be more habitable.

Don't we see legislation on the house floor speaking about "Using Weather as a Weapon" Dennis Kucinich intoduced a bill a few years back that dealt with the subject.

Then as you say downsizing and underfunding government programs and responses adds to the mix.

Add in the oil refineries in the region along with oil platforms.

Add in the "wrong" and "less affluent" population.

We are not dealing with people who love America or Americans. They are Globelist.

So it doesn't take me to far to get to MIHOP/LIHOP.

[alcibiades_mystery]

32. That's nuts

You're officially talking about weather control. That's a sign of insanity. Get help. Now.

[titoresque]

38. you forgot the sarcasm smiley

look it up for yourself....you might want to research chem trails while you're at it....and the only thing that might be wrong about the OP comments is that I heard that they fiddled with weather control in the 50's

[arikara]

229. And they're at it again

with their Haarp toys. And I can't believe people are still denying the existence of chemtrails. Don't they ever get outside and look up?

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[titoresque]

34. great post!

you're right! Also.......Jr. Asshole likes to grandstand, he's a sinister little man and one thing he said, and could hardly contain his excitement was "The Hurricane was like the perfect weapon" or something similar to that effect.

I don't know made it happen......let them die? I don't know, but I DO think they are that crafty and I DO think that the people pulling the strings ARE that smart. Bush is our fumbling idiot.......maybe thats why he's the front guy, whenever people start thinking this admin. can do SMART things......they point to Bush and say, "oh, DOH...nope I guess if he's in charge it's merely incompetence"

[WilliamPitt]

37. Oh for Chrissake

Whatever, y'all. Amazing nonsense.

[incapsulated]

114. I believe in man-made weather!

It's called Global Warming. Look into it. And expect more beatings from Mother Nature.

[AntiFascist]

143. Exactly! This should be the point of discussion...

Whether or not HAARP or any other technology can be used to influence weather is really beside the point on the global scale of things. I believe this is just being used, as in many cases, to sidetrack the greater issues liberal-minded people SHOULD BE discussing.

The fact is that emerging nations like China and India are rapidly burning greater and greater amounts of fossil fuels. Why do you think China is trying to buy up oil companies? This is putting greater and greater amounts of CO2, not to mention pollutants, into the atmosphere, which is most likely causing the very sudden increase in global warming that we are witnessing. I even noticed that no less than MSNBC was admitting that hurricane activity will be increasing due to the effect of global warming on ocean temperatures.

Why can't we see the forest for the trees?

On edit: fixed spelling

[Dr Fate]

23. You may be right- saying they "planned" this gives them too much credit.

n/t

[sonicx]

24. Re: delayed the supplies

Delaying the supplies is LIHOP and playing politics with people's lives. I'm not impressed.

[Warren DeMontague]

25. I think the HOP comes in in that this isn't what they're at ALL interested

in doing.

Helping people, or otherwise performing the legitimate, actual functions of the federal government?

It's about as interesting to them as competitive knitting is to your average NASCAR driver.

If it doesn't involve either

1) screwing with the few remaining constitutional liberties of American Citizens

2) advancing a Fundamentalist wackjob "left behind" agenda to make their base cream in their puritan garb pants

3) demolishing any last vestige of corporate accountability, regulation, or oversight

or

4) raiding the treasury via illegal, immoral wars (or whatever) with the express purpose of delivering literally duffel bags full of taxpayer cash to their cronies

Then, folks, they jus' aint really interested.

The response you see today, too little too late, is pure damage control; and not in the human sense, but the political one.

[elehhhhna]

187. Yes! Too busy w/ offense to worry about defense. ding ding ding !

[xray s]

26. Have you thought about this

Bush is a typical CEO. They do cost-benefit analysis. Its all about dollars. Lives don't mean shit.

Example; in the 60's, Ford decided it would rather have some of their customers burn in Pintos that explode in rear end crashes rather than spend $10 per car to correct a gas tank flaw. The money spent on lawsuits would be less than the money spent on the part to fix the problem, so let them burn.

Now someone in BushCo apparently decided the levee repairs scheduled since the 1990's in NOLA were not worth it, in spite of many warnings that a levee failure would be catastrophic. Now on the surface that is insane, since the cost to rebuild will be far far greater than the cost of repairing the levee. The cost benefit analysis seems way out of whack.

But, who gets all the money to rebuild? Does BushCo care more about its political legacy, or the billions that will flow into its coffers? Now, the true cost benefit analysis becomes clear. Let the levees fail.

I am sorry to be so cynical, but the last 5 years have me thinking this way.

[natrat]

29. disagree...LIHOP

they knew what the top 2 or 3 big dangers were--earthquake west coast, terrorist attack, and flood/huricane in the delta...incompetence and negligence a fine line....they let it happen ...they canceled levy updates and then gutted fema

[mzmolly]

40. But why?

Why?

[IndyOp]

30. So, they were right to chuckle about the election fraud

information last November, too?

I respectively disagree with your opinion that their behavior represents merely incompetence and neglect. If it is neglect it is malign neglect - neglect with the intention of 'using' the situation to their own end or otherwise manipulating the masses.

I am done limiting my discussions of current events to that which is acceptable to the corporate media and all others who still BELIEVE in people who are 'public servants'. They deserve our respect and trust only to the extent that they have earned it.

[Eloriel]

33. Well then answer me this -- just one simple question

what is YOUR explanation for why they didn't, quite simply, drop food and most of all water into the super dome and convention center as well as a number of other places?

I'll also say that if you haven't read the links in my thread, you're talking out of your ass. Again. Here's the link in case you need a map:

***ATTN DU RESEARCHERS -- LIHOP/MIHOP evidence stacking up
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4588088&mesg_id=4588088

[WilliamPitt]

45. I've read all the links

and been watching this river of bullshit prepare to break the levees.

You can't drop anything into a DOME WITH A ROOF.

You can't mobilize a National Guard that has 40% of its equipment and personell 7,000 miles away.

You can't just "drop food" into a city flooded with noxious poisoned water because you will ruin it instantly.

You can't just "drop food" on a populace stuffed into attics and spread out over many square miles.

Perhaps the only person more unqualified to lead FEMA besides Mr. Brown is you, E. You have actually succeeded in making me smile, because you always, always, always come through with the pure gibberish.

[Eloriel]

58. Oh, well, then, I take it you've been without a TV

'cause your description of the two facilities is -- ill-informed, to put it gently. There is lots of concrete around both.

And perhaps you're not familiar with one of the 20th Century's incredible flying machines called a helicopter? It can hover in the air above the ground and that means with the aid of a long cable, lower packages down into/onto the smallest of areas. I'm pretty sure they even have a release on the cables that can be operated by the pilot.

Nor did anyone suggest they try to drop anything into the toxic waters, OR try to provision any of the people stuck on individual housetops this way.

[WilliamPitt]

64. K

The building was surrounded by water when this thing really got rolling. That means amphibious vehicles because the building does, in fact, have a roof. Do you have any to spare?

How many helicopters do you figure would be needed to spread enough food and water around for tens of thousands of people scattered across a shattered city, with no central municipal power to tell them where to go? Do you have any to spare?

No one suggested they drop anything into toxic water...but if you've got people in trees and on peaked rooves, the stuff is going to wind up in the water. Unless, of course, you are the best helicoppter pilot in the history of flight. Are you? Can you clone yourself to fly all those helicopters you have?

This was a collosal fuckup based on fundamental conservative principles, and based on a war that has depleted our resources. Period.

[Zuni]

144. you are absolutely right

budget cuts for FEMA and flood prevention are more to blame than anything for this mess

[natrat]

162. yea and who gutted the budgets and gave it to oil companies

[elehhhhna]

189. "one of the 20th Century's incredible flying machines " lol you're on it.

[incapsulated]

120. You can drop food and water from Helicopters

Right onto the ground without killing people or hitting the water at the Convention Center, where people were dying. They can fly really low, you know.

Come on, now, time for you to do some thinking.

[WilliamPitt]

124. THE. GROUND. IS. COVERED. WITH. TOXIC. WATER.

[incapsulated]

131. See my post below

They DID do a chopper drop of water to the center without incident. The ground was dry were these people were, I didn't see people at the Center sitting in water, they were on dry ground, I have no idea what you are talking about.

[WilliamPitt]

133. There is a lot of city, a lot of scattered people, and a lot of water

One good drop does not an efective policy make, especially if there aren't enough choppers/pilots/supplies due to war and insufficient funding.

[incapsulated]

135. No, it wasn't anywhere near enough

But I am talking about the desperate situation the people at the Convention center were in, not the entire city. People, old people and babies, were sitting there baking in the sun for days without food or water. If they wouldn't move them, the fucking least they could have done were some helicopter drops. Maybe some of the dozens who died from dehydration and heat could have held on.

The irony of using the choppers to rescue people off rooftops and dumping them where they got no water or assistance (some, it seems to the point of death) shows how fucked up this whole thing was. No, I don't buy that this was deliberate murder. Negligent Homicide, yes. Racism and classism and the fact that this was a Blue City played a role? Yes. If you believe he would withold assistance from desperate people for a photo-op, I don't see why it's a strech to assume that he knew if any of these people died waiting it didn't matter since they weren't "his people" anyway.

[bloom]

163. You really don' t know what you're talking about

It's been all over the news - aerial shots - shots of people in the streets outside of the Convention Center and the Superdome.

Lots of area where there could be food/water drops.

Drops out in the neighborhoods would be difficult - but even with some of them - the larger apartment complexes - something could be done.

I don't know why you defend the actions/inactions of these people - unless you just want to rile (DU) people up.

[Warren Stupidity]

202. Not true and I think you know that.

There are large patches of dry ground all over - for example the parking lots around the convention center and the dome - where water and food and medicine could have been dropped on a continuous basis.

The relief effort was non-existent for three days and your only explanation is incompetence and a lot of us simply do not buy it.

[ultraist]

213. The city has lots of intact roofs to airdrop supplies onto

They are/were landing helicopters on strips and roofs. Why didn't they airdrop supplies there, and then distribute them? WHY?

[incapsulated]

126. BTW, they DID drop water from a chopper to the Center

ONCE. And that was it. So it could be done, it just wasn't a priority.

[nashville_brook]

46. yep.

he actually says in the OP there's evidence of lihop. but, don't call it that. that would make you look, crazyass.

[Eloriel]

158. Oooo, and they might say bad things about you.

Can't have that.

(Funny thing is, the Repugs are NEVER worried about what the Dems will say about them. Isn't that the strangest thing?)

[mondo joe]

65. Because they are absolutely fucked up bunglers.

The thing was being run by an estate planning attorney with ZERO experience, running an agency that's been starved of resources.

[Warren DeMontague]

73. I agree with Mr. Pitt's assessment, but I would add to it only this:

They problem is compounded exponentially by the fact that they pretty much don't really give a shit, not so long as it's mostly poor brown skinned people who are down there suffering.

At least not until the political damage becomes impossible to ignore, then they get an "aha!" moment and decide to kick things into gear.

[Sydnie]

35. They also elected Hoover n/t

[Cleita]

39. These people believe in social Darwinism. It would be

the way that they react. Their philosophy would be something like let the disaster take it's course. Those people who are the strongest ones will survive. The weak will be culled and leave more for the strong to survive on. Just a little law of the jungle thinking going on here.

Also, with the Bush philosophy that social problems should be solved by charities, there is no need for the federal government to extend aid until it's politically necessary to do so. It's pretty clear to me that this is how events unfolded.

[Eloriel]

161. Right. That's part of it and here's some proof of that very thing

DNC: Chertoff Blames Refugees and the Dead for Their Fate
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4552525
Link: http://www.democrats.org/a/2005/09/chertoff_blames.php

CNN- FEMA director just blamed the people who "chose" to stay in NO
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4559560&mesg_id=4562193

[pinto]

41. Agree. The small government, leave it to the locals thinking coupled with

Federal resources - money, people and official attention - so focused on Iraq, including NG and Corps of Engineer - and ignoring the possible scenarios evident with a major hurricane strike in New Orleans, fed this disaster. It's a monumental fuck up.

[mopinko]

42. don't be stupid, pitt

how many heinous acts will be done under cover of incompetence? that is why it is useful for this cabal to put idiots like bush and raygun out front. so that even otherwise intelligent people like you will believe this shit is just incompetence.
WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!

[WilliamPitt]

49. Here's a few more exclamation points for you: !!!!!

Seems like you might have run out.

Posit this for me: If you have an incompetent executive branch protected by a congress that is on the team, a justice department that is on the team and a media that is bought and paid for...how hard is it to keep on truckin' with that same incompetence? Answer: Not hard. When there is no accountability, incompetence can rock on indefinitely. Se: The former Soviet Union, Politburo, lack of accountability thereof.

[mopinko]

61. there is a big diff- incompetence and corruption

i think that they have spent the last several days inking contracts, as we are seeing today. they are stealing, stealing, stealing. and they don't want nobody in their way.

[al bupp]

Mr Pitt, you are doing a mighty job of fending off the lunatics, sir

I just wanted to let you know that another one of us out here in net-land appreciates your efforts at introducing some common-sense into the discussion.

I have three words for the Bush administration:

Most. Incompetent. Ever.

[G_j]

151. hey, I am not a lunatic

and neither are many others here who may have come to different conclusions about the possibilities of what has happened.


.....just sayin' :think:

[al bupp]

200. You are right, sir, and I apologize for the unkind choice of terms

Upon reflection, I can see that I should not have used so harsh a description. I can understand why people might entertain, even believe that this administration could be capable of such depravity, even if it was against their own best interests, as Will argues.

I think the extremity of the situation has driven all of us towards emotional distress. It obviously serves no good purpose for me to ratchet up the tenor of the dialog by employing injudicious adjectives that maligns people's conclusions, even if I find them incredible.

For that, from you G_J, and all others I slighted, I ask forgiveness.

[G_j]

148. I may have agreed a few days in

but without having to don a tinfoil hat, my common sense/gut feeling GRADUALLY arrived at the conclusion that the delay must have been deliberate.
I don't think you have to be a conspiracy buff to arrive at that possibility.

You may well be right Will, but I think you may also be wrong here.
And I am simply talking about an educated look at the time frame and the people involved.
This level of incompetence would be hard to achieve even for Bush.

[elehhhhna]

43. YOU AREA CORRECT, this area & its inhabitants are crucial to

the nation AND TO BUSH'S FRIENDS, especially.

This was unintentional FUBAR : Fucked Up By All Republicans.

[info being]

47. But he had forwarning and didn't prepare.

That is by definition Let It Happen On Purpose....in the sense that he didn't try to stop the controllable aspect of this disaster.

I love you Will, but come on.

[WilliamPitt]

50. If it is LIHOP, as I said

It is LIHOP based on the basic premises of conservative policy. No one swung into action to create a marrial law situation out of this deliberately after the storm hit.

[Cleita]

60. The fact that there is suspicion and a lot of heresay evidence

points to LIHOP, Congress needs to investigate this, get people under oath and wring the truth out of them as to what really happened.

[bpilgrim]

66. did you not see the troops there? ------- -------- -------- > IMAGE

NEWSFLASH: this is ongoing

the RESPONSE is CRIMINAL all by itself and these thugs need to be held to account either way... i guess i shouldn't be too surprised by you rushing to conclusions it happens all the time in todays america.


peace

[WilliamPitt]

71. Those are COPS

See the word 'Police' on the vehicle? Those are cops, not troops.

[txindy]

80. The police have the words "POLICE STATE" on their vehicle?! Really?!

:eyes:

[WilliamPitt]

85. They do when they are in full riot gear, armed to the teeth

You think those are soldiers? When was the last time you saw a troop in BLUE battle gear driving a vehicle marked 'Police'?

[bpilgrim]

91. fuck THAT - we got troops there, NOW.

the POINT is that there IS martial law there AND their DELIBERATE NON-RESPONSE is CRIMINAL.


http://media.globalfreepress.com

peace

[bpilgrim]

98. the M$MWs and officials are now saying this is a GREAT opportunity - > MP3

to rebuild the SUPERDOME and everything else?
http://news.globalfreepress.com/mp3/katrina/a_great_opprotunity-9-2-05-WDSU-katrina.mp3
more...
http://news.globalfreepress.com/mp3/katrina

What about the PEOPLE how are we going to rebuild them :argh:

peace

[WilliamPitt]

101. Fine. Good. We agree.

How is this MIHOP again? We seem to have wandered from the point.

[bpilgrim]

110. you are jumping to conclusions

EXACTLY what you are charging other folks with.

this DELIBERATE NON-RESPONSE is INHUMAN and NOT just a natural consequence of RW policy and if they are capable of that we MUST look at the other POSSIBILITIES. nothing can be discounted this early is my point.

peace

[WilliamPitt]

112. *I* am jumping to conclusions?

That's a hoot.

[nofurylike]

149. so, you agree it is lihop. why won't you put it that way? please. eom

[nofurylike]

153. "on pupose" is one line of criminal here. some of the rest of us will go

on with the mihop aspects.

i hope you'll be curious enough to follow it.


peace, will.

sorrow

but
Peace, all

[txindy]

145. I never said they were soldiers. Just that the wording wasn't their's

"Police State." Yeah, okay.

You're obviously frustrated by not being able to actually do any sort of real reporting about this disaster. Go down there.

[bpilgrim]

166. GO DOWN THERE!

good advice :toast:

BTW: the words were revered on that image but all the rest was left up to your imagination ;->

peace

peace

[The Magistrate]

204. For The Record, Sir

It says "State Police", and it is lettering that can be seen on inumerable vehicles in all fifty states. The order of word means something: "House cat" is different than "cat house"....

[txindy]

223. You're right. Order of word means something. So look closely.

What order do you see, exactly? It says "Police State" NOT "State Police." You do see that in the picture, right? Or am I looking upside-down at a picture of them riding along on their heads? :eyes:

Adding: And if you have no clue as to a person's sex, you might want to think twice about the address.

[bpilgrim]

88. that was from yesterday... did you not see the troops on your teeVee today

pouring in?

do you think honestly think martial law is not in effect, come on?

but whatever... this DELIBERATE, non-response is CRIMINAL ALL BY ITS SELF.

the politicos better confront these neoCON thugs on this, bet.

peace

[WilliamPitt]

92. Christ

YES, I saw the troops. The mayor of NO has been screaming for them.

When Hurricane Gloria trashed my neighborhood, there were soldiers all over my street. Was that a martial law conspiracy? No. That was the Guard doing its job.

[bpilgrim]

104. you r the one who brought up ML

and ignoring what everyone else sees the DELIBERATE and CRIMINAL non-response.

peace

[WilliamPitt]

105. ML?

[bpilgrim]

113. Martial Law

look i don't wanna get into a public flame war with you, i just wanted to make a point for NONE of us to JUMP to conclusions and to keep an open mind.

please don't discourage this.

take care

peace

[bpilgrim]

175. NO: Don't come back without your PAPERS - WDSU ----- -------- > MP3

http://news.globalfreepress.com/mp3/katrina/NO-don't_come_back_without_your_papers-9-2-05-katrina-wdsu.mp3

more...
http://news.globalfreepress.com/mp3/katrina

peace

[Warren Stupidity]

205. Will get a grip

whatever their organizing authority is those folks are riding in an apc armed with full automatic weapons. They are not handing out water food and medicine, they are putting down insurgents.

Why is it that those vehicles are driving around the DRY roads you claim do not exist for water food and medicine drops? Why? How did they get in? Why weren't the helicopters, however many there were, flying people out 24/7 from Monday on?

Why?

[belle]

209. Right. They did "let it happen," but not out of any coherent calculated

plan, I'm convinced. They don't believe in the reality-based community; they don't have to. People in crisis are troublesome and disrupt one's plans; therefore the crisis doesn't exist. QED.

Oh, and yes, they are just generally malevolent little fucks who probably do get off on the devastation at some level. But they're not conscious of it. They still think they're the good guys.

None of which is in any way excusing them, p.s.

[bpilgrim]

48. the 'response' is BARBARIC and CRIMINAL that looks DELIBERATE to MOST

lot's of questions, again... i am surprised you are so certain so early?

peace

[fooj]

54. What about the thousands of people who turned out to lend a hand

and were turned away! That was going on since Tuesday! A man swam for 8 hours and was continually left to drown with no assistance. IMO, this was much more than just a major fuck-up!

Here's one specific piece of evidence.
A "floatilla of aid" turned away...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4588797

Peace.

[Verve]

62. Agree! Don't give this admin credit for planning (even if it is evil).

They don't plan, period!

[nofurylike]

63. i have admired and even adored you. i can understand anyone having

trouble seeing MIHOP in this - though i am certain of MIHOP.

BUT
for you to even question LIHOP actually makes me cry for you.

and it scares me.


what is most difficult is that i know you have closed your mind to even looking at it.

please, if you want to feel as strongly as you sound like you feel:

<Come on Will. Take a breath, read the research people here are compiling, and think...

BEFORE you put it down again.

thank you.
i want to keep admiring you.


peace

[WilliamPitt]

68. I've read it. It's wrong-headed

For the umpteenth time: It is LIHOP insofar as this is the result of conservative fiscal/foreign policy. That's as far as it goes, and it's damn big enough.

[bpilgrim]

77. no, this is much more than just the predictable extension of RW policy

they let this 'photo-op' happen, deliberately for there own ON-GOING purposes.

it is CRIMINAL and must be confronted HEAD-ON.

peace

[WilliamPitt]

89. Agreed, as stated

But that's a faaaaar leap to MIHOP.

[sonicx]

94. Most people don't think it's MIHOP

LIHOP is what people argue. letting people die in the aftermath, that it.

[nofurylike]

123. it is "wrong-headed" to be so name-calling convinced at this stage.

*edit hyphen

please care to hear.



peace, will.

[Eloriel]

164. I love it, I love it, I love it.

I am sitting here with the BIGGEST ole shit-eatin' grin on my face. You, m'boy, are painting yourself into a corner on this one, and one day will be faced with the necessity of realizing and probably acknowledging that you were wrong.

Again.

Smile.

I'll give you one clue that might help: I think in your own head you're focusing a little too much on the martial law angle. If you'd sort of let up on that piece and pull your focus back to a broader view, you might get a better picture.

Hehe. But you won't.

I love it, I love it.

[bpilgrim]

188. NO: Don't come back without your PAPERS - WDSU ----- -------- > MP3

http://news.globalfreepress.com/mp3/katrina/NO-don't_come_back_without_your_papers-9-2-05-katrina-wdsu.mp3

i agree that hanging his whole 'argument' on that one aspect of the story is weak, especially when there is ML in NO.

keep up the good fight of pass'n the word E :toast:

peace

[txindy]

69. Some people can't see what's in front of them. And put down those who do.

:shrug: He's not on the scene, so, therefore, it's not real. Never mind the sources who are there and say it is all too, horribly real.

[bpilgrim]

72. take heart, will is known for having a hankering for crow

he's still in shock, bet

peace

[WilliamPitt]

75. Hm.

Well, I still don't believe that one of the 9/11 planes shot a missile into the building before it hit.

I still don't believe that Hunter Thompson was shooting a snuff film with Gosch/Guckert.

I don't believe a missile hit the pentagon, because I have friends who saw the plane hit the building.

I'm bloody positive I don't believe in weather control that can sling hurricanes at cities.

And I don't believe the Bush people laid in wait for this to happen so they could try out martial law.

Sorry, pilgrim. If you're waiting for me to eat crow on this one, best you pack a lunch.

[Mythsaje]

178. I would agree in general

with all of these points.

I DO, however, consider the slowness of this whole response to be more than the natural result of conservative policy decisions.

The fact that they couldn't get food and water to everyone who might need it in the city doesn't explain why they didn't get it to those clustered in a deliverable position...i.e. the convention center.

Helicopters can also land on the top of a lot of hospitals, bringing food, water, medicines, and other supplies--even small generators. This is also true of many large corporate buildings.

Did they?

I worry that it was more than just incompetence. It HAD to be. The purpose behind the hesitation remains a mystery to me. I don't think it's so they could test out martial law...

I begin to wonder if they need to recruit GAMERS to positions like the head of FEMA...at least gamers are able to run through multiple scenarios and eliminate the impossible from the merely improbable.

If one tactic doesn't work, switch gears and try something else. It's as simple as that.

[TNOE]

78. LOL

Yes, I bet if one were to search back after 9/11 - there would be threads from Will telling us all there was no way 9/11 was LIHOP or MIHOP, which is pretty evident now, with Congress woman Cynthia McKinney plus scores and scores of professors, scientists, architects, etc., saying the same thing.

The one thing I will say HOWEVER - is that this totally screwed up their plans for invading & attacking IRAN - that is off the table, at least temporarily - but perhaps they knew with Little Pissypant's poll numbers, that was going to be off the table regardless.

[WilliamPitt]

82. I remember having trouble believing it could be true

and I am still not sold on most of the theories put forth.

[TNOE]

100. I think you just put your finger on it

I'm sorry - you're a good guy, a great writer - and maybe just a little too common-sensical - alot of the 9/11 theories are bullshit, disinformation, etc. - but 90% of them are documented facts. Maybe you are just still too good and too pollyanna - the people in this administration are PURE EVIL - PURE EVIL - and frankly, nothing is beneath them.

[slay]

237. Pure evil hits the nail on the head

I put NOTHING past these people at this point - NOTHING. For all I know BushCo (or whoever is really calling the shots) let it get this bad so that they could run a FEMA/military real life exercise in a martial law environment composed of poor people we are not supposed to care about. :shrug:

[johnnie]

74. This administration has no peripheral vision

They came in to office to accomplish one thing and it was going their way until now. For the last five years they have pissed on America and now their asses are showing.

They didn't make anything happen, they just took advantage of the naivety of a large percent of the population in this country and stayed the course, their course.

They dropped the ball and yes, I believe they set up this photo-op today. I think they have underestimated the "common folk" and they know it. Just talking to a few people today that I know were bush supporters, I can hear the disgust in their voices today. I didn't want to appear like I noticed, but I think they caught on.

The administration has taken enough rope, and they are hanging out to dry. Some may say that their lack of action following the hurricane might have been the proverbial straw, but I think it's the gas prices that even the right doesn't take too kindly to. No matter, it helped to open their eyes that they have been getting played by their "leader".

[Brightmore]

76. Obviously it can't be MIHOP

And it just doesn't make sense for them to let it happen on purpose. This is going to damage Bush, derail his tax proposals, and put further pressure on him to get out of Iraq. Plus, the higher gas prices will drive his approval rating down even further.

I blame this on sheer incompetence.

[bpilgrim]

81. unless they had a hand in weakening the levee or worse

they are already CRIMINAL the deliberate non-response.

peace

[Eloriel]

171. The only reason it's going to damage Bush is that for some unknown

reason, the media -- cable, esp. -- actually reported and actually SHOWED the truth of what is happening in NOLA.

They were unable to, or didn't, or forgot to exclude the media from the scene. And the media actually did their jobs, miraculously.

Think about it. Think about if all the voices had been silent or silenced or prevented from speaking out, all the evidence of non-performance didn't exist. YOU and I and many others would hardly know. We'd get a few first-hand reports filtering in -- not worth a lot more than rumors. We wouldn't be getting the whole impact.

[Warren Stupidity]

208. Incompetence gets you to Tuesday.

Malfeasance takes over late tuesday evening.

The motive is rather obvious: they are trying to create the justification for a broad application of martial law, a suspension of constitutional government. NO was a moment of opportunity and, like 9/11, they were good to go when the moment arrived.

[walldude]

79. Let me comment on your edit

"EDIT TO ADD: I do firmly believe that they delayed the supplies in order to coincide their arrival with Bush's photo-op. That's Politics 102: When you fuck up, indulge in some political theater."

Wouldn't that be considered a crime? I mean even if the relief was held only since last night. If someone died of dehydration so Bush could get his photo-op would'nt they be criminally negligent?

[WilliamPitt]

83. Absolutely

[sonicx]

86. that's LIHOP

not a policy fuckup.

[WilliamPitt]

99. We may be having terminology trouble

I see LIHOP in the 9/11 vein, i.e. they saw it coming and deliberately did nothing to capitalize on the shock and fear. I don't think that happened here. They got caught flat-footed because they had shredded our response abilities and city defenses based on the basic tenets of conservative political philosophy...and they gambled that no storm would do what no storm has done.

Delaying the aid to coincide with Bush's arrival is an accent in the symphony of horror, and was in all likelihood a crime, and is to be expected from such a craven bunch. It was a deperate ploy to salvage their image. It was not planned in advance. I'd wager someone threw that together yesterday while running around with their hair on fire.

MIHOP, now, gets into weather control etc. I'm not even going to bother.

[nofurylike]

136. i now realize you are not going to hear. but keep in mind that * declared

that a federal emrgency area on saturday, BEFORE the storm. then, yesterday, they claimed "no one asked"

please think about that. really think about it.

no one asked? just begged and pleaded and DIED?!!??


anyway, i can not debate this with you here. please go read threads by people who are compiling the facts on lihop - even if you ignore any on mihop.

there is no question of lihop.


peace, will.


Peace, ALL...

[stickdog]

84. Of course they fucked up! But what will be our bottom line

response to this disaster?

If the past is any guide, both "Democrats" and Repukes will respond by curbing civil liberties, militarizing and centralizing power even further.

[Mountainman]

87. I think you need to stop and think. All those who are getting rich off

this administration are still doing fine. They are not hurt by any of this. The oil companies are making record profits. The repubs will send in their friends with no bid contracts to rebuild the city.

The administration is taking advantage of the situation to try and build up bush's poll numbers like after 9/11 but I don't think the media will acquiesce this time.

These folks don't give a damn about the people in NO.

[WilliamPitt]

90. That's a far leap to MIHOP

You're talking apples and oranges. And by the way, they aren't trying to bolster his numbers. This is political triage on a severed and spraying artery. They very likely committed a crime in the process of this triage by delaying the aid. But that ain't MIHOP. That's just ghouls being ghouls.

[TayTay]

116. Will, I agree and it's all on the record

We don't need crazy conspiracy theories. The Democrats have been screaming at the Bush Admin to get their act together and do something about emeergency preparedness for years.

It's on the record stuff. Hell, a lot of it can be looked up on the official Senate committee hearings web sites. Just load up anyting that says Homeland Security or Disaster PReparedness and watch and cry.

They were warned. It's all there. This was a fuckup of monumental proportion with unbelievably tragic consequences. And it's all on the record.

[Mountainman]

121. Not MIHOP but possibly LIHOP

I'm saying that by not spending to prevent this they did no harm to their core supporters. Maybe unintentionally LIHOP

[the_spectator]

95. Bravo, Mr. Pitt!

This is not MIHOP or LIHOP, it's Fuck-Up. I'm a pretty moderate Dem, and I have NEVER been so ANGRY with the Bush administration as I have over these past few days. Total incompetence might let New Orleans die. I'm happy to see our democratic system working though -- the media, from Anderson Cooper to Ted Koppel to JIM LEHRER of all people is starting to get angry. And the government is belatedly responding as a result.

My reaction has been this: affirmative action for the wealthy has really bit us in the ass this time. WE HAVE NO PRESIDENT. I never thought I'd say this, but WHERE IS AL HAIG WHEN YOU NEED HIM? ("As of now, I'm in control in the White House...") Where is Rumsfeld? I almost thought maybe he had it in him to play that kind of take-charge role. He certainly gave great press conference directly after 9/11. :grr:

[Generic Other]

130. I'm willing to accept Fuck-Up but I think they will capitalize on anything

even their own failure.

They sure as shooting don't give me much confidence in HS's emergency response capabilities.

BTW. Are we at RED ALERT yet??

[WilliamPitt]

132. Of course they will

Pat Robertson's group getting pimped by FEMA is no accident. Even unto the end of the world, they will make a buck off suffering.

[sendero]

102. I agree...

... while I think 9-11 was LIHOP, this was basic incompetence.

[sniffa]

106. reaganomics kiLLs

[WilliamPitt]

107. Bingo

[FrankChurch]

109. Mike Malloy lost it last night.

Was his best show.

[LoZoccolo]

118. Yep.

That's the most striking lesson of all this.

[sniffa]

186. i've been using this phrase aLL week

i screamed it on tuesday. i screamed it on wednesday.

on thursday, i sighed, and i cried.

today, i'm saying it, again. it's time to put this equivaLent of a nigerian scam-maiL into the waste-bin of ideoLogy. x(

[Henny Penny]

108. Is this damage limitation Will? or an attempt to drum up some

facts that you could use???

Why is it when someone says "Take a breath and think." they usually mean "Take a breath and stop thinking."

?

[WilliamPitt]

111. LOL

That's pretty good.

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[enigmatic]

117. Hey Pitt

You might want to comfort one of your fellow DUers whose neighborhood in NOLA is on fire right now. If you have the time:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4590139&mesg_id=4590139

[smartvoter]

172. Help us with the math here. Are you saying that Pitt doesn't care

about suffering because of what he posted? I don't seen any connection here at all.

[WilliamPitt]

185. It's simple

People who get their pet theories punctured walk away unhappy.

[KittyWampus]

119. Soviet Style Cronism Coupled With Ass Covering. America's Chernobyl

[Lindacooks]

125. Yes. THIS is the Repuke's version of the ideal federal government.

This is what they wanted. The world now sees what fools they are.

[Walt Starr]

128. Just as was the case with 9/11. LIHTI

Let It Happen Through Incompetence

[callous taoboy]

196. Incompetence and the dark addiction of the gambler:

With this tragedy (before, during and after), with Iraq, with educational policy, this reckless crew has repeatedly tossed the dice and crapped out.

[Chovexani]

134. With all due respect Will

I am thinking. I'm a black American with family in the poor, rural South (though, thank Gods not in NOLA).

What has been happening over the last five days is nothing short of genocide, period. It was allowed to happen, the same way these people were allowed to live in such appalling conditions that they had nothing to escape with in the first place.

Of course there is incompetence involved, but fuck anyone who wants me to believe that's all it is.

[Henny Penny]

141. Incompetence has always been used as a curtain

behind which these people act freely.

For years in Ireland we thought our govt was just incompetent... but finally things fell apart and when investigations were held... it transpired that a lot of politicians were extremely corrupt. They'd gotten away with it so long because people thought... "ah, the govt is incompetent... all that red tape...etc!"

Where is Cheney in all this???... I bet he's giving orders to prolong this misery so as either...

the oil price can be hiked and/or...

black areas are compelled to riot at the obvious racist element to the response (or lack of...)
leading to the introduction of martial law.

Do I sound angry??? Well I am. Very!

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[ultraist]

217. "leading to the introduction of martial law"

black areas are compelled to riot at the obvious racist element to the response (or lack of...)
leading to the introduction of martial law.

And we have all been forewarned, by George Bush. The INTENTIONAL lack of response kills two birds with one stone for him: 1) killing off THOUSANDS of Blacks and 2) sending out a loud message to the rest of us, to be very afraid.

The fearmongering criminals need to be held accountable and candycoating the corruption by using safe terms, such as "conservative principles" and "incompetence" is dangerous.

[stickdog]

157. I can't help but agree. At minimum they let genocide happen.

It's tough to believe that they let this nightmare ensue on purpose, but it's even tougher to believe that they just sat there why people were dying of hunger and thirst because they are all "incompetent."

They'd have to be worse than subhuman submorons to preside over such an unmitigated disaster through sheer incompetence. I'm sure incompetence explains SOME of this, but at minimum there's malice as well.

[noiretextatique]

168. denial: the glue that holds it all together eom

[ultraist]

214. exactly. the denial here is appalling.

Shameful.

How can "educated" individuals be so ignorant?

[BelgianMadCow]

137. I have to agree, unless...

I think we are witnessnig events of the same historical magnitude as the Black Caucus asking to be counted when trying to protest the 2000 Election results.

But this time it's on TV.

Who in their right mind would LIHOP this?


Unless it's really the beginning of the end and the troops are going in to protect oil from looters.
Looters = insurgents, WAKE UP AMERICA

[cornermouse]

140. You know what bothers me about what I'm seeing.

Or maybe I should make that the latest thing that is bothering me.

This has basically become a military operation. While I know that there is a necessity for the military to be there and I'm glad they are there, I watch the military/not civilians handing out the food and water and victims being treated by the military doctors/not civilian doctors and nurses from other parts of the country who volunteered and it makes me uncomfortable. I think about the way the victims might be looking at it and I get even more uncomfortable. I'm not entirely sure why.

[natrat]

167. national guard should be a bridge between the 2

[Armstead]

146. Thank You Will...A-men

Bad ideology and Bad Leadership. That's bad enough.

[jenn1977]

Are LA, AL, & Miss "bluer "along their coasts?

just wondering because a caller on Randi Roads brought up a good point about the 06 elections. These 3 states are "red" w/ blue governments.

Get rid of the poor/minorities.
Take some to Texas, tell them their blue govs failed them.

[jenn1977]

150. Are LA, AL, & Miss "bluer "along their coasts?

just wondering because a caller on Randi Roads brought up a good point about the 06 elections. These 3 states are "red" w/ blue governments.

Get rid of the poor/minorities.
Take some to Texas, tell them their blue govs failed them.

[politicaholic]

152. Good level headed post. I likey. n/t

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud patriot]

160. bush failed to provide for the common welfare in a timely fashion

the criminal neglegence is on all federal leadership.

The office of budget plans is the filter from the
field to the legislative branch .

the office of budget plans has for political reasons
made things other than infrastructure a priority .

We have got to get info from the field directly
to the legislative branch without the filter
of a political office of budget plans .

Hi Will :hi:

[noiretextatique]

165. speaking of politcal theater

:applause:

[donsu]

169. how kind you have become

don't lose your nerve now

[smartvoter]

170. I am in 100% agreement with this, including the photo-op. nt

[Old Mouse]

173. Yes, ridiculous

Just like having a 12 year plan to illegally dismantle a sovereign nation and waiting for the best opportunity of human suffering to exploit it. I thought you had become less skeptical when Blair refused inquiry into the London bombing?

A year ago NO barely escaped destruction. Anyone following global weather, which I assure you Bush does despite his stance against global warming, would know without a doubt this year's hurricane pattern would be worse than last. It is inconceivable that I could anticipate this and the Federal government could not. Only the systematic dismantling of infrastructure and the intentional building of communication roadblocks could cause this perfect storm.

[Junkdrawer]

177. I bet it's WAY MORE than 50% of the boots on the ground in Iraq...

Every military organization has a 90/10 ratio of "support personnel" versus "on the ground with weapons personnel".

I submit the 50% of the NG that is still here has a WAY larger ratio of fat to muscle and finding anything like a sufficient number of TRAINED Guardsmen with weapons so that order can be restored in a natural disaster may well be an almost impossible task.

[Holly_Hobby]

179. STOP TELLING US WHAT TO THINK

[WilliamPitt]

182. STOP YELLING BECAUSE I HAVE AN OPINION

[earth mom]

216. Thanks for posting EXACTLY what I was thinking!

DO NOT TELL US WHAT TO THINK!!!

:grr:

[political_invader]

180. I totaly agree with you 100% n/t

[struggle4progress]

181. The Gas Oil and Petro party doesn't want skyrocketing prices?

It's the LAST they wanted? Uh ...

Is yew an me watchin the same peoples?

[crispini]

184. kick

:kick:

[Name removed]

190. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Chemical Bill]

192. * does talk to God a lot...

:sarcasm:

But seriously, I know he didn't cause the hurricane, and I doubt he wished for a hurricane (you never can tell with *), but I feel that the response is the moral and ethical equivalent of LIHOP, so why quibble over semantics? Just my $.02

Bill

[natrat]

193. so true bill

they have been caught with there pants down and they may have a problem spinning out of it. Hard to believe there is a whole group so ethically and morally bankrupt.

[Independent_Liberal]

199. LIHTI - Let It Happen Through Incompetence

That's what I think.

:)

[The Magistrate]

210. Well Said, Mr. Pitt!

"It is worse than a crime: it is a mistake."

[T Town Jake]

234. I agree. Every time I hear "LIHOP/MIHOP" I'm reminded of...

an essay I studied in college. Here's an excerpt:

"The paranoid spokesman sees the fate of conspiracy in apocalyptic terms—he traffics in the birth and death of whole worlds, whole political orders, whole systems of human values. He is always manning the barricades of civilization. He constantly lives at a turning point. Like religious millenialists he expresses the anxiety of those who are living through the last days and he is sometimes disposed to set a date for the apocalypse...."

"....The enemy is clearly delineated: he is a perfect model of malice, a kind of amoral superman—sinister, ubiquitous, powerful, cruel, sensual, luxury-loving. Unlike the rest of us, the enemy is not caught in the toils of the vast mechanism of history, himself a victim of his past, his desires, his limitations. He wills, indeed he manufactures, the mechanism of history, or tries to deflect the normal course of history in an evil way. He makes crises, starts runs on banks, causes depressions, manufactures disasters, and then enjoys and profits from the misery he has produced. The paranoid’s interpretation of history is distinctly personal: decisive events are not taken as part of the stream of history, but as the consequences of someone’s will." (emphasis added)
-Richard Hofstadter, Harpers Magazine, November 1964.

Oddly, I think this administration's galling incompetence actually fuels much conspiracy theory: people just can't believe that such stupidity can reign in such high places without a little conspiratorial "help."

[ultraist]

212. Mr. Pitt, are you actually denying racism was a factor here?

For real? "Wow, just wow."

[WilliamPitt]

225. Certainly not

[ultraist]

230. Good.

I'm assuming then, that your statement, "This was a collosal fuckup based on fundamental conservative principles, and based on a war that has depleted our resources. Period." includes racism, specifically your term, "conservative principles."

Isn't the term, "conservative principles" an awfully "nice" way to refer to racism? Seems to me, that is shoving it back in a dark corner where it wont really be seen.

Thanks for the clarification.

[johnaries]

215. I think your statement in one of your replies sums it up best -

"This was a collosal fuckup based on fundamental conservative principles, and based on a war that has depleted our resources. Period."

I can't think of anything to add to that.

[notadmblnd]

218. I don't know Will

There seems to be a totally different atmosphere here and in the media tonight. I don't know if you are right, I don't know if how I feel is right either. I don't want to believe that our leaders are ugly monsters.

I've listened to the scanners in NO over the past 3 days, I listened to these people who haven't had access to food or water for 4 days beg for help and not receive it, and I heard Mayor Nagin speak. Were they over reacting? Should they have been more patient? The events I've witnessed the past few days have me convinced that this was beyond incompetence, lack of funding and unpreparedness.

I just finished reading Gov Blanco's official request for aid, She requested it last Sunday night. From what I read, she had a plan. The plan included requests for assistance for the surrounding counties to take in the victims. It appears nothing was set up. If it had been, would there be a need to send them to Texas?

I sit here safe in my home and I'm watching people die right before my very eyes and the reasons they're giving us for these deaths defies human logic. Babies lapsing into coma from dehydration, elderly dying from exhaustion in their chairs. At some point someone has to ask.. It this intentional?


Maybe you're right Will it's all just a series of unfortunate events. the result of lack of planning, lack of funding and cuts to personnel so deep that everyone up and down the line are completely incompetent. Still, I can't help but wonder, if people hadn't started screaming about the lack of action.. would they finally be moving now? If making absurd and crazy allegations is what it finally took to get their attention.. then I don't regret participating.

[beetbox]

219. A Great African American Community In The World Has Been Destroyed

LIHOP?MIHOP?

Whatever

It is Systematic Murder of THE OTHER

It Is Purposeful

[eridani]

220. "Norquist disciples wanted tiny ineffective federal government"

[nomatrix]

221. Waiting for A metro city......

Not any city.
Will, I know you are a smart man.
Ask yourself, what has been the major motivator of this administration?
Energy.
From the deregulated rolling black outs, CA, Enron, etc.
What is in LA? Refineries. H
asn't been new refineries in how long?
Didn't the Caspian/Iraq just get tapped?
Refineries operating at 95%
Takes about 5 years to build a refinery with all the air quality permits, etc.


Now, let's look a why they are shipping the good citizens of NO as far away as TX. and not building tent cities right close. Keep those grounds contaminated and condemned and no one will THINK of coming back, even to squat. Don't think it's been done? See Centralia, PA.
See Love Canal, NY.

MIHOP/LIHOP Hm mm. Maybe just opportunity knocking. Just a theory BTW.

[HR_Pufnstuf]

226. Google "Hurricane Pam".

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Hurricane+Pam%22

They modeled a Cat 3 with NOLA having 10-15 feet of water in New Orleans.

Under "Search and Rescue" at www . fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=13051, they list:

Search and Rescue

- The search and rescue group developed a transportation plan for getting stranded residents out of harm's way.

- Planners identified lead and support agencies for search and rescue and established a command structure that will include four areas with up to 800 searchers."

--

LEPA newsletter
www . lepa.org/Newsletter/newsletter2.htm
(page 3 under "Spring 2005" newsletter)

Kos 9-1-5:
http://kos.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/1/223524/1785

[Geek_Girl]

227. They didn't cause the Hurricane

But they are letting those people die everyday! On Purpose!!!

I'm sorry you have 100's of people that are on an overpass that could walk out of the city and they are turning them back by the point of the gun and forcing them to sit in their own filth!! There is absolutely no excuse for that!

LIHOP/MIHOP

:grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr:

[Nikki Stone 1]

228. I agree with your analysis of this government--small govt is NO govt

And the resources have been spread way too thin.

[minkyboodle]

231. right on

as always Will. LIHOP MIHOP this stuff is counterproductive.

[walldude]

232. Check out this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4599090

The Red Cross is being told they can't go into NO. They are being told that it would make the people want to stay. Yeah stay, living in their own filth. Sure. Sorry, the mihop thing may have been tin foil hat yesterday but today it's a reality. They are holding back aid from these people for god knows what sick reasons.

[Guy Fawkes]

233. Thanks, Will....

a bit of fresh air is nice in here.

[Roland99]

235. Think about the possibilities, though. Consider this:

The Red Cross says the reason they are not allowed into the city (and haven't been) by order of the Dept. of Homeland Security is because "people would be drawn to the Red Cross food".

That is complete propaganda and here's why!


I just got off the phone with a friend who's working in the Galleria building right now (he's working on restoring cell tower service). He says from the 17th St. Canal to the Superdome, the city is UNDERWATER (except the French Quarter and the Central Bus. Dist.).

People will NOT go back into the city to get some scraps of food/water. They have access to better OUTSIDE of the city. The drug addicts are the ones doing the shooting and looting in order to get their fixes. People aren't going to risk that danger by going back INTO the city.

Also, there's only one way into the city (I-10 from the west.)

The "twin span" is GONE and the southbound Causeway is damaged. It looks like "spaghetti" according to my friend. That leaves I-10 and it would be rather easy to blockade traffic that wasn't part of the Red Cross.


Something is afoot. Something smells...BADLY

[slay]

236. Sorry Will, while I respect your opinion I put nothing past these criminal

s who run our government. I'm not saying for sure that they did let it happen this way on purpose, but people should never be afraid to question the possibility. The whole thing seems VERY suspicious to me to be honest. But that's just my opinion.

peace

[GettysbergII]

239. I think BushCo has already committed too many crimes to stop now

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/090205_bet_life.shtml

What is not being discussed rationally by the mainstream media is Katrina’s impact on energy production. They don’t dare. By my calculations and those of oil energy expert Jan Lundberg, the United States has just lost between 20% and 25% of its energy supply. My projection is that it’s not coming back — at least not most of it.

As a result of Katrina, Saudi Arabia has finally admitted that it cannot increase production. Many of us knew they’ve been lying for at least two years. The Energy Information Administration has just admitted that global demand has been outstripping supply for several months before Katrina. Nice time to start telling the truth. Nature is finally calling everybody’s bluff. The liars, deniers and mentally ill will be exposed soon enough and they will pay their own price. Daniel Yergin will finally get his comeuppance. FTW’s race is to reach as many people as possible who want to prepare and are willing to prepare for this in local community settings.

The wheels have been coming off the wagon on the US economy for decades now as the cheap energy available for the last 150 years became more and more expensive. The cancerous growth of the last 25 years has been at the expense of the wellbeing of the vast majority of Americans. Now the world has peaked oil production and Katrina has accelerated the detorioration of our ecomony. The sheep are starting to look up. If the Bush Admin and his 'Base' doesn't maintain control of the government, they all know they are facing serious jail time because this problem is not going away until we transform both our economic system and our energy sources. However their vision of America is one very similar to that of Saudi Arabia where a repressive priesthood props up the legitimacy of the 'royal' families.

See the Yurica Report for the details of this transformation in progress from democracy to theocracy

http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/ChristiansPlotToRemakeAmerica.html

[Moderator]

240. Locking....

This has become inflammed.