Is this true or just a rumor?

[begin_within]

A friend of mine who is a nurse told me that he heard that when nursing homes in the flood zone had to be evacuated, only the patients who could walk were taken, and the ones who couldn't were simply left behind (presumably to drown). My friend said that if he had been in that situation, he would have not simply left the disabled patients, that out of compassion he would have given them all heavy doses of morphine before leaving, either to make them unaware of their demise or to actually kill them outright by the morphine rather than suffering death by drowning. Has anyone else heard this? One news article I read stated, "The head of a Louisiana ambulance service said he had been told of one home in lower St. Bernard's Parish where 80 patients had been found dead and of an apartment home for the blind where the staff had abandoned the residents. The reports could not immediately be confirmed."

[NVMojo]

1. kick! til we have an answer!

[nonconformist]

2. The HELL?

please god that has to be a rumor...

:scared:

[iconoclastic cat]

5. Hell, in fact, is exactly what.

[Guaranteed]

3. I would highly doubt that.

I don't think that those who have committed themselves to helping others in such a way would be nearly so willing to leave anyone behind.

In for a penny, in for a pound. Especially in a nursing home.

All just speculation, though. I just can't imagine it.

I would NEVER do that, if I was in charge. Those who were with me would be helping to carry those who were disabled, if they were anywhere near capable and were expecting to get their share of the food, water, and medicine.

No one gets left behind.

[MissMarple]

16. Well, what did you just see this week. People were left behind.

And that is not part of a moonie book title. People WERE left behind to die. They died and they suffered. We are all culpable.

And many stayed, and cared. But, they were left behind, AS WELL.

As a nation, we left them behind.

And I don't fault what you meant, I'm just feeling all the guilt and bitterness that this administration has left in its sorry wake.

[Guaranteed]

19. Are you talking about just this post?

That's it?

Even the OP itself was speculative/questioning.

[MissMarple]

22. What?

[Guaranteed]

28. I'm just not sure what you were referring to

with the previous post. You said we saw people being left behind. Just not sure what you were talking about.

Not saying that it DIDN'T happen, mind you...just not sure what you're saying that refers somewhat directly to the OP.

[MissMarple]

34. Actually, I was referring to the people in the Superdome, the Convention

Center, and the people trapped in their homes, hotels, dormitories, and....other places. They were essentially abandoned and many died and are dying. People were rescued from rooftops and placed on bare concrete, as in overpasses surrounded by water. Many of them are now safe, others are not. In my estimation, we left them behind. We, and our country, left them behind. George is our president, we are responsible.

That is what I meant.

And it is late, and I HAVE to go to sleep. :)

[Guaranteed]

36. That's pretty clearly different than the context we were discussing. nt

[MissMarple]

42. Well, technically. But I wouldn't doubt that group homes, nursing homes

and homes with developmentally disabled people were left unstaffed. A lot of those people are tucked away and under the radar, many live by themselves in apartments. My daughter worked with developmentally disabled adults (18 and over), and I don't believe there is an evacuation plan that includes them. A lot of these folks are just forgotten.

So, do I know of specific instances, no, but of the probability, most definitely. Did it happen? My educated guess is yes.

[Horse with no Name]

18. It's true.

Post 14.:cry:

[Guaranteed]

21. There's no link, and,

in any case, the patients weren't left alone. There were aides with them, by your own post.

FURTHER in any case, that is MUCH different than the OP.

[Horse with no Name]

23. here is the link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4530742

And the aides cannot, by law, give medication.
In essence and by law, these patients were abandoned.

[Guaranteed]

25. We both know that the law

was long, long gone. Especially those professional ones, which actually are very nitpicky.

Like telling a 15-year, veteran paralegal that they can't sign off on a simple Order of Protection. It's the same thing.

The law is there for a very real reason, but it's also one of THE most pliable in these types of situations. The bending of that law comes well before looting.

[Horse with no Name]

27. I understand

But the medications are locked up and I doubt someone that wasn't familiar with the medications would just dive in and start medicating.
That would be just as insane as the nurses leaving.

[Guaranteed]

29. You think the nurses would have left the keys? nt

[Horse with no Name]

31. Doubtful.

But as you answered I was editing.
Have you ever seen how medications/medication sheets are organized at the nursing home?

[Guaranteed]

32. Yes, I worked at a residential mental health treatment

center for 14 months. I gave the residents medications on a daily basis. I had keys, and if didn't have keys (and I always did), I knew where to find them.

I imagine that the nurses would have left the opportunity to medicate the patients behind before they left. There's no reason not to. It would have been *criminal* not to.

And, as far as the organization of the medication administration sheets, we administered them four times per day. Once trained it was not difficult to keep track of what each patient's medicines.

[Horse with no Name]

33. You are wrong.

The nurses will lose their license. That is a given.
Criminal charges? Hopefully, but not certain.
However, if they left the med room open and all of the drugs disappeared, all any of those aids have to say is that the nurses stole the drugs and they would face drug trafficking charges as well as theft.
There aint no way in hell they left the keys for someone else to pilfer in the medications and risk going to prison on those kind of charges.

[Guaranteed]

35. I wasn't licensed at all, and I administered medications

for 14 months. No criminal charges so far, nor have any of my co-workers been charged. As far as I know, they're still working it that way, 3 years later.

I didn't *decide* what medications the residents were to take, but once it was decided it was pretty clear as to what we were supposed to give them. We just administered them and recorded them. Pretty simple.

I was administering very, very real medications, too. We're talking anti-psychotics and anti-depressants, among many other classifications.

[Horse with no Name]

37. You're in a residential treatment center

different laws for different entities. Hospitals have different laws than nursing homes as well--mostly because of Medicare regulations.
I am a nurse. I know the laws. I know them very well.
At the risk of sounding condescending, you don't take care of patients, you take care of residents. You don't have to play by the same rules.

[lvx35]

40. Nowdays patients are residents.

I was reading this thing about the crisis in nursing homes, how the nursing homes have become sub-acute care facilities and how the assisted living facilities have become nursing homes. When I was younger, I worked in an "assisted living facility" with people who weren't ambulant, and I administered morphine with no certifications at all, except a one day class that made me a 'QMAP'.

[Horse with no Name]

43. It's all semantics to keep the insurance companies from having

to take care of people.
I've taken care of people on the floor that 5 years ago would have been in ICU.
Nowadays, they extubate a patient and send them to the floor 2-3 hours later.
Gotta get them moving through the system.:sarcasm:
A friend of mine owns a nursing staffing agency and she asked if I would do her a favor and go work at an assisted living center. I had just had knee surgery. She said "No problem", you won't be doing anything but providing a license.
I walked in--assisted living used to be patients who might need minimal assistance occasionally--it was a full blown nursing home. They didn't have ONE ambulatory patient,lol.
I called her and told her I would finish the week but she needed to find someone else. I won't work at nursing homes because of all the Medicare regulations--you spend more time doing paperwork and there isn't any time to actually take care of the patients. I'd rather take care of the patients.

[Guaranteed]

46. The Medicare regs...

Those are financial, right?

[Horse with no Name]

52. Medicare is the financial source

But in order to be paid, they have patient care regulations that have to be followed. For instance, a Medicare regulation is that all nurses aides have to be state certified.
If you have a nurses aide that isn't certified, you can lose your Medicare funding.
Alot of it is redundant and silly. Alot of it is necessary.
Pages and pages of the same thing that has to be signed off on.

[Guaranteed]

56. If the nurses' aides all have to be state certified,

they obviously have fairly high standards already for the nurses' aides. Even at that point, you wouldn't trust them with administering medications to the patients?

[lvx35]

49. Wow, so its pretty widespread!

That paper must have been right, I thought it might just be where I was. Wow, this country really is decaying, and it seems like republicans are leading the rot!

[Horse with no Name]

45. It's all semantics to keep the insurance companies from having

to take care of people.
I've taken care of people on the floor that 5 years ago would have been in ICU.
Nowadays, they extubate a patient and send them to the floor 2-3 hours later.
Gotta get them moving through the system.:sarcasm:
A friend of mine owns a nursing staffing agency and she asked if I would do her a favor and go work at an assisted living center. I had just had knee surgery. She said "No problem", you won't be doing anything but providing a license.
I walked in--assisted living used to be patients who might need minimal assistance occasionally--it was a full blown nursing home. They didn't have ONE ambulatory patient,lol.
I called her and told her I would finish the week but she needed to find someone else. I won't work at nursing homes because of all the Medicare regulations--you spend more time doing paperwork and there isn't any time to actually take care of the patients. I'd rather take care of the patients.

[Guaranteed]

41. Well, as a nurse, you're not able to prescribe medications,

are you?

Seems to me that you are basically in the same position as anyone else that is administering medications. Medication has to be prescribed by a doctor before administration.

We did more than administer medications, too- unlicensed, unbelievably. We administered enemas, gave shots, and even determined, on our own, when to or when not to administer laxatives and PRNs. We weren't even nurses. Yet we cleaned up shit, puke, piss, etc, and even kept people from killing themselves.

They were residents, alright. But they were also most CERTAINLY very, very ill.

And, I know the law as well. I can most definitely assure you that everything that was going on there was well, well within the law. Wasn't even close to being illegal. We weren't even warned about anything (other than giving medications unprescribed- obviously).



In any case, your point has already been diluted, probably invalidated. The nurse's aides, in their experience, almost certainly knew what they were doing. It didn't matter what the law was, any more than the law mattered for those who were stealing from stores in order to feed their families and neighbors.

[Horse with no Name]

51. Huh?

I can't prescribe medicine--never said I could.
I never said you were breaking the law--just that the laws you have to follow are different than the laws that have to be followed in a residential treatment center are different than in other facilities. Ergot--they aren't interchangeable just because you decide that you would like them to be.
I don't doubt your skills. I don't doubt you worked hard. I don't doubt you did what you say you did. I have no reason to doubt it. But different levels of facilities have to abide by different laws.
That is a fact.
The nurses aides in a nursing home DO NOT have the skills necessary to give out medications per Medicare guidelines as well as by guidelines of the state that they live in.
In fact, as an RN, by law--I cannot hand two Tylenol to a nurses aide to go and give to a patient. Not even if I followed her into the room and watched it. It is ILLEGAL for an unlicensed person to dispense medication. Simple enough.
At the beginning of each shift, there is a narcotic count. UNTIL YOU COUNT WITH ANOTHER PERSON AND EACH OF YOU SIGN OFF THAT THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR NARCOTICS HAS BEEN TRANSFERRED, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE NARCOTICS. FEDERAL CHARGES IF THEY COME UP MISSING.
There isn't any nurse--even one that abandons her patients--that will hand the keys to someone when she hasn't signed off responsibility for those narcotics. Nobody.
My point isn't diluted. You just don't understand.

[Guaranteed]

55. No, same point.

The laws are piddly enough to be broken.

And we, too, counted our medications.

Just this one question: Given that the nurses did leave the patients, as you're contending, would you rather that they did or did not leave the keys to the medicine cabinets with the nurses' aides?

[lvx35]

39. You "assisted them" to take their medications.

That's the magic difference that lets aids give medications, officially, you are assisting them. In reality, you are giving them. I've worked in that field long enough to see how that works!

[Guaranteed]

47. Most definitely.

But the program chief would also give shots sometimes. She wasn't a nurse.

In any case, we were administering medications. If it wasn't against their will, there's no difference.

[lildreamer316]

4. I really don't want to know the answer to this, but

kick anyway. May the universe be infinately more forgiving than I think I ever will be.

[Botany]

6. doubtfull

the nurses, docs, and others would not have left them ......
enough real death ..... rumor..... at least I hope so.

[ultraist]

10. Many of those group homes don't have on staff nurses and docs

They hire caretakers.

[Horse with no Name]

17. see post 14

not a rumor.:cry:
If the search function worked I could pull it up for you.

[koopie57]

7. is this the story?

http://www.nola.com/weblogs/nola/

Elderly/mentally disabled trapped at 1226 S. Carrollton Ave

Name: Lecta Bourgeois

Home: 337-264-1414

Email: [e-mail]

Subject: My Hurricane Story -- ELDERLY/MENTALLY DISABLED TRAPPED IN APT
ON CARROLLTON AVE

Story: THERE ARE ABOUT 40 ELDERLY & MENTALLY DISABLED CITIZENS TRAPPED IN AN APT COMPLEX AT 1226 S. CARROLLTON AVE . 90+ YEAR OLD FATHER OF A FRIEND HERE IN LAFAYETTE..NAME IS DELERY LANDRY HE IS IN APT 315..NO FOOD OR WATER & THEIR CAREGIVES LEFT THEM PRIOR TO STORM...THEY MAY NOT HAVE ENOUGH INSIGHT TO MAKE THEMSELVES NOTICEABLE TO RESCUERS...MATER DESOTO APTS NEXT TO CHURCH ON 1226 S CARROLLTON AVE. 10 RESIDENTS PER FLOOR..4 STORY BUILDING..PLEASE HELP THEM QUICKLY...DAUGHTERS NAME IS SUSAN LANDRY CHIQUELIN FROM LAFAYETTE SHE HAS LOST CONTACT WITH HIM A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO....ELDERLY & MENTALLY DISABLED RESIDENTS....

[nonconformist]

9. oh my.... speechless. nt

[aquart]

11. Jesus.

[CC]

8. Earlier today a I heard a nurse

at Charity Hospital talking about having to send those that could walk down stairs to a boat. Only the second boat came back with the patients because whoever was suppose to pick them up at dry ground never showed. They had to walk back up a couple flights of stairs. She was in tears. Sorry but I can't remember which station (Cnn or MSNBC most likely) She was in tears and sounded so frustrated. I have been in and out so haven't heard the rest but wouldn't be surprised if it were all true. * doesn't care beyond a photo op.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

15. Last night wwl people are calling into their local NOLA radio station

Some people actually have phone service. Their was a woman who was calling from a small nursing home. She said she and her husband had stayed behind because they could not leave the older folk, her mom one of them. She said they had received water, but desperately needed insulin for one patient.

If you want to listen go to wwl.com and on the left side is a listen tab. There were quite a few NOLA residents who had land line connections. They were reporting their addresses.

[ultraist]

12. If there had been a plan to evacuate the disabled

It would have been all over the news. They evacuated a few nursing homes but we heard NOTHING about reaching out to group homes for the mentally disabled or physically handicapped.

I will not be a bit surprised if they left CHILDREN who were in group homes or orphanages. Likely, any wards of the state, were left behind to die.

[bluedonkey]

13. I don't know about others

but my daughter-in-law and I help out at a shelter filled with residents from a nursing home,here in Baton Rouge.I don't remember the name of the nursing home,they were sheltered at St Anthony's.They had lost two people on the bus coming here and one lady we had to call EMS to take her to the hospital.
I hope it's not true,but I can't help thinking it probably is.Nursing homes not on anybodies priority list,sad to say.

[Horse with no Name]

14. There was a nursing home that was supposed to be evacuated

by the NG. They never showed up.
Apparently, the nurses abandoned the patients before the hurricane hit.
(didn't hear anything about the patients walking out though)
The patients were left alone without medications for several days.
A few of the nurses aides stayed behind to tend to the patients hygiene needs and feed them. At least one patient died.

The nurses are lowlife scum who will lose their license as well as hopefully be brought up on criminal charges.

[MissMarple]

26. Maybe A nurse on duty, maybe. And nurses are no low life scum.

They are people, mostly more than usually decent people. They work hard, long hours for less than adequate pay. In a hospital a nurse can save your life. Trust me. I have seen it. They are your first line of defense. Too bad they are short staffed and overworked.

[Horse with no Name]

38. *I* am a nurse--I have been for many years

And *ANY* nurse that abandons their patients--especially in an emergency situation--is a low life scum, bar none.
These people are dependent upon you to take care of them and to even save their life when needed. You don't walk out on that responsibility. Ever.

[MissMarple]

48. Unless you have to go home to save your kids. But many places

aren't staffed by RN's around the clock. Sad, but true. And nurses are just people, they come in all sizes, colors, and ethics. As I am sure you know. :) I have a whole family of nurses. And doctors.

[wli]

20. probably true

Medical care workers are often hardened to such because they have to make similar decisions all the time about patients who can't pay for their care or similar.

[Horse with no Name]

24. total bullshit

Medical people don't make those decision.
Administrators do.

[wli]

30. That's the ultimate responsibility. Facing the patient is foisted on them.

And that is reality. They are overruled from above and tasked with breaking the bad news to the patients' and families' faces. Repeatedly.

Neurosurgeons drop out of their chosen specialty because of this en masse. They are largely faced with terminal cancer patients and severe head trauma patients. It is very rough on them.

[NYC]

44. Question.

I can understand how wrong it is for a nurse to abandon a patient. But, if there is a strong likelihood that both nurse and patient will die, is it the nurse's duty to stay behind and die along with the patient?

[Horse with no Name]

53. Yes.

Ask any nurse that has been through training to be a flight nurse.
Ask her what her duties are when the plane is crashing.

On edit: It isn't parachuting to safety.

[NYC]

54. Thanks.

[applegrove]

50. Sounds like babies being thrown from incubators during the First Iraq

War. I think the Pentagon is working very hard on this.

BULL****!

[The Magistrate]

57. Locking

This is mere rumormongering, without any source, and serves only to inflame.