Is it comforting to some to see malice where only incompetence exists?

[jpgray]

I think it really is as simple as incompetence, and that Bush is not orchestrating some grand Aryan eugenics scheme wherein he removes a substantial group of minorities. He may or may not be racist--but these events can all be explained by incompetence.

Take postwar Iraq--no matter how craven a motive you attribute to the administration, letting the country descend into utter chaos benefited no one. The fact of the matter is, they plan for what they care about or can benefit from, and ignore the rest. That's why the Oil Ministry was protected in Baghdad, but the history museum was left without a soul to guard it. The administration didn't laboriously orchestrate a scheme for the purposed destruction of 1000s of years of history, but they didn't care about it, so nothing was done. It's not that people don't warn them, or that people don't draw up plans for dealing with these exact scenarios--all that happened, in both NO and in Iraq. But the plans don't get used--in Iraq there were elaborate postwar plans developed by the War College and the Clinton-era Pentagon that were never used, and via FEMA and the Army Corps of Engineers there were plans to shore up the levees and respond properly to the disaster, to evacuate properly, that were never used.

The means and the ability are there, but the will to use them is not. They told people to leave, and never stopped to think those who can't would be in trouble. The poor, invalid and friendless in NO just don't elicit concern. What was the big watchword from the federals? "Let's drop food"? "Let's drop water"? No--it was "let's stop looters". The property they took time to care about--the poor people, not so much. Is that racism, or just simply incompetence, ignorance, and apathy that happens to attack (this time) a group predominately made up of minorities?

They elaborately planned the invasion of Iraq, losing few soldiers in the initial push to Baghdad and defeating Iraq's armies, but there was zero plan for how to protect infrastructure (except for that Oil Ministry) or to make the civilians feel secure about their human rights and property being protected. It isn't that they -couldn't- do these things; they just didn't care.

When you look back at history, it isn't grand conspiracies with wheels within wheels within wheels that drive disastrous events in a ruler's reign, usually it's just stupidity combined with apathy. Think Louis XVI, or Philip II of Spain--or think of a movie director who doesn't bother to keep his eye-lines straight, but carefully frames every shot of an actress's nude scene: it's not that the guy had a purpose in screwing up the eye-lines, or that he was incapable of seeing and fixing the problem, but it's a combination of incompetence and apathy that causes the neglect. He doesn't care about the eye-lines, but he cares about the nude scene.

That fits better for me than some theories where GWB sits in a big conference room and says "We'll hold back the supplies until x days have passed, to kill the maximum number of blacks while incurring the minimum political damage"--why sit around yukking it up on Monday playing the fucking guitar if that's the plan? I see it more as "fuck, our stupidity and our not giving enough of a shit has made us look bad again; let's coincide my visit with the arrival of aid so it looks like I did something useful".

[Guaranteed]

1. I agree with you presently, but with regard to Iraq

they most definitely made use of racism in order to link the terror attack we experienced to Saddam Hussein and the need to "take him out."

[MercutioATC]

2. Thanks for this post.

Whether we ultimately prove to be right or not, I think this site could use some moderation right about now...

[jpgray]

6. I'm surprised people think this was Bush's plan all along

The general public, by and large, desperately WANTED him to do a great job responding to this disaster. People want to believe that their leaders are good men who respond well in a crisis, and that their government is prepared to protect them. If he had delivered on those hopes, his approval rating would be soaring in the coming weeks. As it stands, his undeniably weak response makes this a huge blown opportunity for them PR-wise. It's the same as 9/11--this guy just goes where he's told. He was told to sit there and read a kid's book in 2001, and he was told to go yuk it up and play the guitar on Monday--it took time for his advisers to reorganize a script for him to follow and nothing in either situation smacked of a coherent political scheme. Neither weird bit of inaction, neither torpid adherence to a pre-disaster schedule looked planned or politically good, it looked like incompetence. There must be an opposite urge, rather than believe such great evil could be caused by someone too stupid and uncaring to function properly, it may be more comforting to see a grand malevolent purposed scheme instead.

[Giant Robot]

3. I think you are right to a certain point.

I believe that it is comforting on some primitive or sub-conscious level to believe in some grand conspiracy when, to be honest, shit happens. It gives a measure of control where none existed. If you think about it like this, if there were a grand conspiracy for the NO disaster, then the ability to help would be there and available, just withheld by cruelty and malice. That can be better to some people than the alternative that death and destruction can happen at anytime, and for all we have accomplished as a nation, there is little we can do to stop it. I hope I am making my point, as its 4am and my brain is fuzzy.

This doesn't mean there aren't some grand conspiracies out there. Life would be dull without them. The Kennedy assassination, I think, was one of the best conspiracies out there. But I am sorry to say, the disaster in NO is just an example of how fallible we as humans are, and how destruction can truly happen to us at any time, in almost random manner.

[Jamastiene]

4. So, have you seen the Geraldo clip at Crooks & Liars?

And if you have, how do you explain the orders that they MUST stay there instead of letting them walk out to a triage down the road a little bit?

If you haven't, then I'd highly recommend that you watch it.

[imaginary girl]

5. I initially assumed incompetence, but ...

every successful effort to get anything done has seemed to get obstructed immediately. Loads of help has been turned away, and there are serious contradictions like:

Red Cross not allowed in so they don't encourage people to stay
yet the people are not allowed to leave

[Nostradammit]

7. Is it comforting to some to see incompetence where only malice exists?

Was Hitler merely incompetent? GWB doesn't sit in some big conference room, he waits outside while Cheney and Rove figure out how they are gonna screw the American people further.

[jpgray]

8. Okay, present your evidence that this is purposed genocide

So far I've seen nothing but circumstantial evidence. The argument goes like this:

The lack of response and/or the nature of the response to this crisis is causing many deaths and exacerbating suffering. Therefore, the purpose of the response was to cause deaths and exacerbate suffering.

That doesn't work logically--it assumes facts that aren't in evidence.

[stevietheman]

15. Well, I understand where you're coming from, but I've decided...

to "jump to conclusions" and declare that the circumstantial evidence is prima facie genocide of the black and poor through criminal negligence.

Yes, in this country, we wouldn't normally convict somebody of a crime like this on merely circumstantial evidence. Luckily, however, for the building of our case, we have mounds of information on Bush's prior clusterfucks.

The recurring patterns prove it all.

This president must be removed from power.

[Jamastiene]

17. Telling people to go to the convention center before

the hurricane and then telling them help was on the way and to stay put, yet help never arrived. Sending armed men to keep them there trapped with no rescue coming. And if you took my advice in the other post, there is some evidence there for you. Of course, you'll have to watch the Geraldo clip. There it is, in plain sight.

[Jamastiene]

18. http://www.crooksandliars.com/ Start with the Geraldo on Hannity

& Colmes clip. Listen to what they were saying.

[Giant Robot]

9. To respond to one specific part of your statement,

I think Hitler was full of malice, and was a twisted genius of sorts, able to set the ball in motion to assume leadership of Germany and send it towards its inevitable fall. I do not think he had this grand scheme set in his mind from the start, however. It looks to me like he started the ball rolling, and then acted with it, not in control, but in conjunction with. I think events spiraled towards the holocaust, but he may not have had that completely set in his mind. Watch the movie Conspiracy if you want to see what is purported to be how the concentration camps got their start. That was a conspiracy and a truly frightening one at that.

[Giant Robot]

10. To respond to one specific part of your statement,

I think Hitler was full of malice, and was a twisted genius of sorts, able to set the ball in motion to assume leadership of Germany and send it towards its inevitable fall. I do not think he had this grand scheme set in his mind from the start, however. It looks to me like he started the ball rolling, and then acted with it, not in control, but in conjunction with. I think events spiraled towards the holocaust, but he may not have had that completely set in his mind. Watch the movie Conspiracy if you want to see what is purported to be how the concentration camps got their start. That was a conspiracy and a truly frightening one at that.

[Giant Robot]

11. To respond to one specific part of your statement,

I think Hitler was full of malice, and was a twisted genius of sorts, able to set the ball in motion to assume leadership of Germany and send it towards its inevitable fall. I do not think he had this grand scheme set in his mind from the start, however. It looks to me like he started the ball rolling, and then acted with it, not in control, but in conjunction with. I think events spiraled towards the holocaust, but he may not have had that completely set in his mind. Watch the movie Conspiracy if you want to see what is purported to be how the concentration camps got their start. That was a conspiracy and a truly frightening one at that.

[bpilgrim]

29. thats how i see it, folks can't get their mind around it despite 5 days

of deliberate INACTION. then when bush is ready for a photo op everything starts happening?

BULLSHIT

everything in this admin gets blamed on incompetence because people can't bring themselves to face the ugly truth.

they are poor black people and no-one gives a fuck and it's a perfect opportunity to get our troops used to combat patrols in american cities to bad there plan of denying aid for a week didn't incite the riots they had hoped to quell with combat force but i wouldn't be surprised to start hearing of indiscriminate force anyways, they need the practice for whats coming.

then will never see until it effects them personally.

peace

[Nostradammit]

44. Ayup. That's how the history books are gonna tell it.

Deliberate inaction.

Part of the Bush M.O.


P.D.B. August 28, 2005

"Katrina determined to strike in U.S."


Now watch this drive.


Fuckers.

[applegrove]

12. No dice. Bush repeatedly puts unqualified people into positions

of importance as long as they drink the juice. That is a pattern. A pattern of putting people (bolton, Brown, Wolfie, etc) into position of importance with the sole purpose of diminishing those very institutions..so that corporations will look as a better alternative... is systematic.

Of course a corporation delivers services better than a systematically reduced and deminished government body. That is not a comparison worth ****!

Bush got a huge payoff from not sending in troops till the cycle of violence was hard to undo. 5 days he let a U.S. city be lawless. Has any president ever done that before?

The payoff is "more fear in the fear bank" so Bush can do what he wants legislatively.

Incompetence doesn't even begin to describe. It is not a pattern of incompetence either. It is a pattern of diminishing the structure of our democracies so the corporations will look like the only alternative.

All we need to do is get rid of them all - all the neocons. Replace their hirees and function-nots with experts in the field, and things will go back to the way they were before.

[applegrove]

13. I would not say genocide but we all know Bush has a higher tolerance

for "casualties" than the rest of us.

[Wizard777]

14. How many times do you have to get shot in the foot before you realize

THE DUMBASS WITH THE GUN IS HITTING HIS TARGET EVERY TIME?

[stevietheman]

16. Exactly. It's *strong* circumstantial evidence, buttressed by a...

recurring pattern of criminal and otherwise unethical behavior of many kinds.

There's almost no leap of logic required here.

[Canuckistanian]

19. My thoughts exactly. "Conspiracy" isn't at play here

Brilliant analysis, BTW.

In this situation, I see only extreme apathy followed by shrewd counsel.

I need not mention the counsellors.

[stevietheman]

20. Extreme apathy = criminal negligence = genocide by neglect n/t

n/t

[Giant Robot]

21. BTW sorry about the triple post

Comp was moving slowly, didn't realize it went through. My bad.

[Tsiyu]

22. Comforting????? HELL no!

Perhaps you can explain why a mere "incompetent" would want to be the leader of a nation of 300 million? What would motivate a bumbling idiot to run a huge country?

What would motivate his supporters?

There is no comfort in knowing that ** and his minions are evil. It would be more comforting to think he was an idiot than to know he is dead set on destroying my country.

I find this question silly and condescending, sorry.

[Giant Robot]

23. Maybe comforting was not quite the correct word

I can see your point in that. I will try to think of a better word. Maybe just easier for us to accept.

But your point about what would motive an "incompetent" to try to run the country does not belong in this debate. Just because he is "incompetent" does not mean he is without motives, desires, and drives, like any other person. Who knows what motivates him. At this point, who cares. And I think we all know by now what motivates his supporters: God, guns and gays. And Bush could be an idiot and be evil at the same time, neither one of those is mutually exclusive. My vote however, is that this is just a continuous colossal screw up. There are too many uncontrollable factors here for me to think it was planned. Criminal neglect maybe.

[Tsiyu]

55. 2=2=4

Put them together, the two and the two, can you?


Who knows what motivates him. At this point, who cares

If evil motivates him, that goes directly TO the OP's argument.

How can you divorce motivation from character? I can't. Unless I'm trying to make excuses for someone, or I'm trying to make someone appear to be less or more than they really are.

[jpgray]

26. I think it does comfort people to believe evil is done through purpose

That there is more to the villainous, unbearably tragic failure here than incompetence and apathy. They didn't care enough to prepare, and they weren't smart enough to start fixing things immediately when everything went to pot. It fits everything, it explains the baffling cake and guitar photo ops that are so politically damaging, and it doesn't assume any facts not in evidence. The other comfort factor is that people are in control, even if they are doing terrible, nasty things on purpose. The truth is, no one was in control, and no one took control. And no one prepared for the poor or the sick because they didn't care.

[Karenina]

34. The biggest "comfort factor"

is white denial of overt racism. I had an Iranian cabbie last night who, after we established our common ground, ranted on about *co's RACISM in it's response to the disaster (among other things). He was so much better informed than most Americans.

[jpgray]

36. The biggest racism in NO was there before

In that minorities overwhelmingly were disadvantaged and without means to escape. The incompetence and the apathy was in having zero plan to evacuate people with no means for escaping, and not acting once it became clear they needed help, respectively.

[Karenina]

42. MALICIOUS INTENT

The practice is as old as the hills. CLEAR THE LAND.

[Tsiyu]

53. I guess you haven't considered that evil can be expressed

by making the choice to do nothing, and by blocking others from doing something.

We all have choices. ** has many resources at his disposal. He has used them semi-efficiently in the past, as when Floridians needed help (though the media didn't really show us the worst of the hurricanes there). He could CHOOSE to help or CHOOSE to gleefully strum a guitar and make more money for his party while the storm raged in his own country - the country he pretends to LEAD.

Evil thrives by pretending not to notice. It is not comforting to acknowledge this. It chills me to the bone to know how evil this administration truly is.

[bpilgrim]

49. "They didn't care enough to prepare" they cared enough to BLOCK aid though

"they weren't smart enough to start fixing things immediately" the were smart enough to countermand orders to fix things.

sure, they didn't care for 5 days, they didn't know they were supposed to do anything.

yeah, whatever...

peace

[Karenina]

52. Bingo.

[NuttyFluffers]

24. Coordinated inaction and prevention of action is not incompetence.

do the math.

[fujiyama]

25. I see where you're coming from

but inaction for 4-5 days is more than sheer incompetance. It seems like deliberate and criminal neglect.

I don't believe this was a grand conspiracy to kill as many people as they could, but the fact that thousands are dying seems to not phase him or anyone else in this administration.

[Hello_Kitty]

27. Maybe not a grand Aryan eugenics scheme

But definitely racism played a role in the poor preparation and sluggish response. And just because people are incompetent doesn't mean they aren't malicious.

[Beam Me Up]

28. It isn't incompetence it is POLICY.

When the RED CROSS are not allowed to do the job that they are prepared to do, by the Federal Department of Homeland Security, THAT is not a matter of incompetence. It was a policy decision that was made and inforced.

[jpgray]

30. So that wasn't an incompetent decision? (nt)

[Beam Me Up]

46. No. It was a RACIST and CLASSIST decision.

It was a decision based NOT ON FACTS BUT ON RACIST PERCEPTION.

[Karenina]

47. Do you sincerely believe

that had these flotillas descended upon a devastated white community in Florida, they would have been sent AWAY???

[Individualist]

31. Bloody George

Deliberately ignored warnings prior to 9/11 attacks. Thousands died.

Lied about justification for the Iraq War. Thousands died.

Went to fund raiser, played golf and strummed his guitar while New Orleans drowned. Death toll not in yet.

[seito]

32. At the very least it is incompetence mixed with indifference

Criminal Indifference

[bribri16]

33. I think they can CO-exist. nt

[progmom]

35. I see both existing.

:shrug:

If primarily wealthy people had been hit, I truly believe we would be seeing a very different scale of relief efforts.

[jpgray]

39. That's where the apathy comes in

You still don't need to have a racist, ethnic cleansing motive to explain this behavior. It's just not a necessary condition for the way the administration responded.

[progmom]

41. oh...that.

yes. i agree to a point. i think the end result might be a form of ethnic cleansing, but i don't think that was the motivation.

[jpgray]

45. Yes, the end result is a form of ethnic cleansing

But just because that is the end result, it doesn't follow that this was the purpose of the torpid response all along. I'd need to see more evidence especially since that combination of incompetence and apathy explains things fine up to this point.

[SmokingJacket]

37. Do you see *any* signs of well-meant bungling?

Not me. A president who meant well but who was simply a fuck-up would have had helicopters flying all over, food going to the wrong place maybe, lots of action but aimed at the wrong place. He'd be on TV reassuring people, at the very least.

What *I* saw was a very well-coordinated action coming many, many days too late. So, why the delay? It wasn't a lack of information. We all had the info, and so did his aides.

No -- they wanted to wait. They weren't going to rush to the aid of a poor, black, democratic city with democratic leaders -- fuck no. This is their vision of government -- people look out for themselves, no handouts.

Only when he realized there *would be* political repercussions did he lift a finger.

[Kni7es]

38. What was the big deal about looters, anyway?

So people were stealing shit. Big deal.

The merchants had insurance, and ultimately there was nothing lost. The first priority should have been to get aid to those who needed it most, and if military intervention had to coincide with those operations, so be it.

[gulliver]

40. It's negligence and incompetence.

And the negligence, while not necessarily malicious, is evil when human lives are concerned. It has already been pointed out that the pre-hurricane response in Florida was far different than in NO. And if this had happened to Galveston, do you think Bush and McCain would be photographed licking frosting off their fingers that very day?

There is also true malice, BTW. You can bet that a sizeable subset of Bush's strongest base has an unspeakable opinion of what is happening in NO.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

43. We will prob. never know the REAL truth for a long time.

n/t

[shance]

48. It's the incompetence excuse that allows denial and evil to thrive

quite successfully. No accountability with "incompetence".

God, Hitler didn't know what he was doing? He was just "incompetent".

Ain't life grand???

[nofurylike]

50. no. it is terrifying to know it has not been "only incompetence." eom

[Qibing Zero]

51. In this case, apathy IS malice.

Unless you're trying to say they tried to do something about it but have been failing... in which case I'd have to whole-heartedly disagree.

[Matariki]

54. no not incompetence

but it is very clear from this that the bush administration has absolutely no interest in GOVERNING. their only interest has been to plunder the resources of america. our resources. to plunder what was a financial surplus. to put policies in effect that take even more from us. to use our population as 'human resources' to further their selfish ends and control oil reserves in the middle east.

they clearly have no empathy, they have no interest in doing their jobs. they are a criminal organization who has stolen our government.

now the question is, what are we going to do about it. politely ask them to give it back?