Army Times: "Troops begin COMBAT operations in New Orleans"

[Minstrel Boy]

NEW ORLEANS — Combat operations are underway on the streets “to take this city back” in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

“This place is going to look like Little Somalia,” Brig. Gen. Gary Jones, commander of the Louisiana National Guard’s Joint Task Force told Army Times Friday as hundreds of armed troops under his charge prepared to launch a massive citywide security mission from a staging area outside the Louisiana Superdome. “We’re going to go out and take this city back. This will be a combat operation to get this city under control.”

...

“We’re here to do whatever they need us to do,” Sgt. 1st Class Ron Dixon, of the Oklahoma National Guard’s 1345th Transportation Company. “We packed to stay as long as it takes.”

While some fight the insurgency in the city, other carry on with rescue and evacuation operations. Helicopters are still pulling hundreds of stranded people from rooftops of flooded homes.




http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1077495.php

[wli]

1. We saw it coming. This is genocide. n/t

[Child_Of_Isis]

3. Blood bath. eom.

[shance]

47. This looks like more than that. This looks like Bush/Cheney's new

Iraq?

Time to call it what it is becoming if we don't stop it.

[Pepperbelly]

66. bullshit ...

You should try reading the article and not cherry picking it ...

-snip-

Numerous soldiers also told Army Times that they have been shot at by armed civilians in New Orleans. Spokesmen for the Joint Task Force Headquarters at the Superdome were unaware of any servicemen being wounded in the streets, although one soldier is recovering from a gunshot wound sustained during a struggle with a civilian in the dome Wednesday night.

-snip-

“This is making a lot of us think about not reenlisting.” Ferguson said. “You have to think about whether it is worth risking your neck for someone who will turn around and shoot at you. We didn’t come here to fight a war. We came here to help.”

[SammyWinstonJack]

2. What?

"While some fight the insurgency in the city..." :wtf:

[TankLV]

37. Damn uppety poor and injured - how unpatriotic can they be?!

They are officially "insurgents" - we now know the true mindset of these repukes who control ALL facets of our government!

"But they are not like the Nazi's - so stop saying that!" - yeah right!

[Desertrose]

4. Just adding to the body count

who's gonna know how many will be shot aftwer so many drowned , etc etc.

No reporters lose around the city anymore either I bet.

Bloodbath ....legal excuse to hunt down and kill the *enemy* (US citizens)

[crikkett]

5. isn't this illegal? n/t

[MADem]

45. Bush just lifted Posse Comitatus

...and active duty personnel are being sent in. PC does not apply to the Guard, fwiw.

[Eloriel]

73. No, that's what he WANTS to do and will if he can --

the Northcom General made a big show of talking about use of force only for self-protection, which is what Posse Comitatus is all about: federal troops can't be used for domestic LAW ENFORCEMENT.

But make no mistake, this administration DOES want to get rid of Posse Comitatus (one m or two?? looks more like one).

[MADem]

81. I heard the newshead say so, I think on MSNBC

It was a female, right after his morning presser. She said active duty were going to augment, and PC was lifted for this purpose in NOLA. She might be mistaken, but I know what I heard--she specifically said PC limitation was lifted.

Edit to add this: Bush sending active-duty troops to region damaged by hurricane
http://www.shreveporttimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050903/NEWS/50903022

By Deb Riechmann
The Associated Press

WASHINGTON — President Bush, seeking to stem criticism that a slow federal response has contributed to needless misery, said today he is ordering additional active duty forces to the hurricane-battered Gulf Coast....Bush said 4,000 active duty troops are already in the area and 7,000 more will arrive in the next 72 hours from the Army’s 82nd Airborne from Fort Bragg, N.C., 1st Cavalry Division from Fort Hood, Texas, and the Marines’ 1st and 2nd Expeditionary forces from Camp Pendleton, Calif., and Camp Lejeune, N.C.

Those troops will be in addition to some 21,000 National Guard troops already in the region.

Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco and U.S. Sen. David Vitter, R-La., both requested active military troops on the ground in Louisiana...
Bush took the rare step of delivering his Saturday morning radio broadcast live from the White House Rose Garden with Rumsfeld, Chertoff and Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, by his side.

...“He heard some things he didn’t want to believe at first,” said Sen. Mary Landrieu, D-La. “The president is starting to grasp the magnitude of the situation.”

[Jose Diablo]

99. From Ft. Brag, hmmm

I wonder if some will be from Blackwater, you know, mercs.

Ah, we meet again.

[Holly_Hobby]

6. Support the troops!

I watched some of the grunt NG being interviewed yesterday. They talked like robots. This is war to them.

And they had to be TOLD that it wasn't Iraq and to point their guns down?

THE POOR BLACK PEOPLE STRANDED IN NO AND BEING TORTURED BY OUR GOVERNMENT ARE *NOT* THE ENEMY!

I am ashamed to be a part of the human race.

[Lindsay]

7. No need to be ashamed.

They are not humans.

[catnhatnh]

8. Kicking...N/T

[earth mom]

9. WTF?!

:wtf:

This doesn't make any sense! Who are they going after???!!! People who are half dead clinging to some wet building???!!!

[HysteryDiagnosis]

11. Kicking again.

[bpilgrim]

10. "While some fight the insurgency in the city" - paging Will Pitt

this is all starting to make sense now :cry:

peace

[Eloriel]

74. Patience. I figure we're several months away from some people

getting it. :-(

[LiberalArkie]

12. Get a grip

While some fight the insurgency in the city, other carry on with rescue and evacuation operations. Helicopters are still pulling hundreds of stranded people from rooftops of flooded homes.



Exactly correct. There are a lot of wacko rightwing nuts out there that have broken into stores and stolen guns shooting people. In a society that has no police in operation, a few armed people will TERRORIZE the rest.

The article is absolutely correct.

[titoresque]

20. WTF?

are you serious?

[alarimer]

24. There is no insurgency

it is total bullshit. I am pretty sure they can control a few vigilantes without shooting them Hello??? Tear gas???

[Sparkman]

29. Starving people act crazy, until they aren't starving anymore. FEED them.

[wli]

69. starving people are also weak and faint a lot

There isn't just no insurgency, a lot of these people are probably distinguishable from the dead only by virtue of not having decomposed.

The fact they're fabricating an "insurgency" is HIGHLY ominous.

[Sparkman]

26. Shooting anybody is not the answer. Hungry people need assurance, not

MILITARY threats. They need help and some of the abundant resources of the RICHEST COUNTRY. Bushco denied them early imergency equipment and now they can only react with COMBAT TACTICS. If this is governing, then welcome to BAGHDAD, LA, Bush style.
The guns will dissappear as soon as calm police and calm national guard makes their presence seen and felt, and ALTERNATIVES AND OPTIONS
for obtaining sustenance and shelter is available.
Can't we all just get along?!

[sattahipdeep]

32. If they were really shooting at the guard

don't u think those rednecks could hit what they were shooting at?

[TankLV]

38. What the fuck are you talking about?

"Insurgency"? Really? Like they are trying to overthrow or fight against our government? You do know what the term "insurgency" means, right?

Are you fucking out of your mind?

[bear425]

39. Get a grip?

Perhaps, you should take your own advice...

Little Somalia? Methinks the author has just a little too much testosterone in that pen of his.

Water, food and medicine is needed - not bullets. Of course national guard troops are needed to keep order, but THERE IS NO INSURGENCY IN NOLA!

[NYC Liberal]

51. Out of the TENS OF THOUSANDS of people trapped

How many have "looted"? (Or "found things", I guess...depending on what color your skin is :eyes:)

There is no "insurgency". An insurgency is:

an organized rebellion aimed at overthrowing a constituted government through the use of subversion and armed conflict

There are people committing CRIMES, sure.
They are not trying to overthrow the government any more than any other criminal is.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

53. Your post is....misguided....in so many ways....

1. There is NO INSURGENCY in New Orleans. There are some INDIVIDUALS and GANGS that need to be arrested and taken to the nearest jail, wherever that may be;

2. There are nearly 100,000 survivors that need to be RESCUED...that DOES NOT require COMBAT OPERATIONS!;

3. "There are a lot of wacko rightwing nuts out there that have broken into stores and stolen guns shooting people"??? I doubt seriously that if you ask any of the people that have taken guns out of stores that they have ANY particular political affiliation or beliefs.

[LiberalArkie]

97. That is EXACTLY what was being said

The gangs, the opportunists, the gun toters have to be brought under control. Then the weakest of the people can be saved.

[Lerkfish]

60. no, get a clue.

I think you may have put on someone else's talking points this morning when you woke up.

[PatriotGames]

13. I thought that was a joke until I clicked the link.

What the hell kind of headline is that?

[Rose Siding]

14. Did Jones let General Honore in on his plan?

[thecrow]

15. This is apalling!

And they had the nerve to write, in the last line
"we;re there to help"

[SpiralHawk]

16. New Orleans has a long history of occupation by feds

One has to wonder how this is playing around Dixie

[SoCalDem]

17. More water---less bullets

:(

[catnhatnh]

18. RE-Kick....N/T

[greatauntoftriplets]

19. Incredible.

People got pissed off while craphead * played guitar and attended fundraisers. The idiot doesn't have a clue what it is like to be homeless, have lost everything and even have no access to necessities like food and drinking water in 100-plus heat index weather.

[HEyHEY]

21. Well, what do you do when people are shooting at you?

You shoot back... then it becomes combat. Hopefully there won't be any violence... but are they just supposed to sit back and let assholes with guns control the city forever?

[Sparkman]

33. Just display overwhelming FORCE, and FOOD+SHELTER access....

and the problem dissolves. You can assume people are like animals, or you can assume that they will behave rationally like you would if you were starving and without hope and then the government offered provisions and civilized living conditions FOR ALL THAT ARE NEEDY.

[Minstrel Boy]

35. How about defuse, de-escalate, de-militarize?

How about not saying NOLA will look like "Little Somalia" when they're done?

[HEyHEY]

43. I agree with what you're saying

That's why I said hopefully it won't become violent Hopefully an increased presence will stop all this shit... but if they are fired at.. I don't blame them for shooting back

[Eloriel]

36. Exaggerated, IMO. For example, there was NO shooting at chopper

QUOTE: Laura Brown, a Federal Aviation Administration spokeswoman in Washington, said she had no such report.

"We're controlling every single aircraft in that airspace and none of them reported being fired on," she said, adding that the FAA was in contact with the military as well as civilian aircraft.

Evacuation Disrupted by Gunshot Report
Superdome Evacuation Disrupted by Report of Gunshot Fired at Military Helicopter; No Injuries Reported
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1087205

[HEyHEY]

41. What about the USAR

Team from Vancouver who on the city website reported the sound of "NOnstop gunfire"

[Eloriel]

61. What/Who were they shooting at? No reports that it was choppers.nt

[HEyHEY]

62. No reports of at what

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4561547&mesg_id=4561547

[Media_Lies_Daily]

85. Sorry, but that report is little better than heresay. They had no first-

...hand evidence to prove the allegations made in the comments.

[Swamp Rat]

95. I have been periodically listening to a police scanner of conversations

between Troop B (State Police on the Jefferson/Orleans Parish line, near one of the canal breaches), and National Guard (ID: Eagle's nest). I have heard NOTHING of actual damage to choppers from small arms fire. I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but I am leery of the stories/hyperbole posted here.

[TankLV]

40. I knew I could expect as much from you.

Sigh.

THEY ARE NOT "INSURGENTS"! GODDAMMIT.

They are not fighting for control of our government!

They are fighting for THEMSELVES and for their SURVIVAL!

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

67. "Personally attacking people"? All I did was state a fact. But, thanks..

...for proving my point.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HEyHEY]

44. And did I say any of what you quoted?

All I said is that if people shoot at them... they are within their rights to shoot back. If they shoot first, then we have problems... and no they aren't insugents, I thought the same thing you did whe I read that... but instead of finding that opinionout... you went on some righteous rant.
In fact most of how the general worded what is going to happen made me sick.. but you wouldn't bother to findout that would you?

[wli]

49. AFAICT they're not fighting at all, they're sick and dying.

No scanner reports of "armed resistance." No one on the ground has ever seen anyone wandering around with guns who wasn't a cop or a military type. Wherever this stuff is coming from, it's not from direct observation.

[Beware the Beast Man]

98. Sorry, I disagree.

It's the National Guard's job to restore and maintain order in a time of domestic crisis, like they should have a week earlier. If someone shoots at them, what do you expect them to do? While I agree that there are many folks in dire need down there, there are still a few assholes that are taking advantage of a chaotic situation. Stop thinking in black and white- this is a huge gray area right now...

[Media_Lies_Daily]

57. You treat this as you would ANY other law enforcement issue....

...New Orleans is NOT rebelling...they are NOT "insurgents"...they are AMERICANS that need to be rescued and taken out of a terrible situation.

They are AMERICANS for which help has been delayed past any reasonable excuses by the morons that claim to be running this country.

Do YOU really believe that the phrase "COMBAT OPERATIONS" should be used for an operation that SHOULD be a major rescue operation??

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sparkman]

22. U.S. cavalry treated the concentration camps same way, guns as an answer.

Imagine how much progress we HAVEN'T made! Starving original people on forced reservations had to shut up and just die, or face the sabers and carbines and Gattling machine guns of the brave U.S. cavalry.
THE ANSWER WAS TO PROVIDE FEDERAL ASSISTANCE during THE HURRICANE AND IMMEDIATELY. But then, that would have PREVENTED the starvation and impossible living conditions in the first place, which takes advanced planning and not in *'s tool box.

[wli]

54. the ones easily rounded up into concentration camps are nonviolent

If someone's got violence in them, they aren't going to submit to being rounded up in the first place. Anyone dumped into a concentration camp like the Superdome is not fighting in the first place. And that's what those who are actually on the ground are seeing. They've herded the meek into death camps and are starving them to death deliberately.

[Julius Civitatus]

23. Inappropriate language. Who thought this out?

WTF? Is this satire? Are they for real?

Who's in charge of this?

:mad:

[sattahipdeep]

25. "highly proficient in the use of lethal force."

Oh good.....send the shell shocked in....

Lt. Gen. Steven Blum, chief of National Guard, said that by Saturday night, there
will be 7,000 National Guard soldiers in New Orleans. He said half of them had just returned
from assignments overseas and are "highly proficient in the use of lethal force." He
pledged to put down the violence "in a quick and efficient manner. :puke:



Blackwater :puke:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4570927&mesg_id=4570927

[rucky]

27. Is it time to get a gun yet? n/t

[MisterP]

100. not really, but that won't stop the NRA

they'll be rolling in the Benjamins come 2007

[fortyfeetunder]

28. Fantasy Combat.

You mean to tell me these folks are living out their Iraq and Somalia fantasies in New Orleans? Good effing grief.

[Rex]

30. Take the city back from who?

The poor? I can't believe they called NO citizens 'insurgents'. My fucking Zod, what bad choice in words!

[mzmolly]

31. If we contrast the macho rhetoric with what's happening, we can be glad

we have a military today.

I hope we don't hear stories of militant brutality later however.

[IdaBriggs]

34. What part of F*CK*NG *SATURDAY* does this country not get? nt

[HEyHEY]

46. I don't know what you mean?

DO you mean the fact this has been going on for almost a week?

[PA Democrat]

48. Grossly irresponsible language

Heads should roll for this.

[earth mom]

50. INSURGENCY?!!!!!!!!!

You have GOT to be kidding me!!!

:grr:

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

52. Oh Dear God. What is starting to happen now?

Will we even have another election to get these thugs out of office?

[wli]

56. I'm progressively less confident of that daily.

And that's even considering that the elections are rigged.

[dogday]

55. What do you think about when you see

the words Somalia and insurgency in the same article? Sounds to me there are dangerous elements in NO. They are not worth the rescue, so just shoot them, they are insurgents, you know, they same words they use in Iraq....



I always knew there would come a day when our own troops shoot us....

[Lerkfish]

58. here's a possible explanation

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2057984&mesg_id=2057984

[Milspec]

64. This post, like others on different threads

is the best thing that ever happened to this small, limited interest web-zeen. "Army Times" and its associated sites "Marine Times" etc, is not a official military news site, but a private one that is primarily of interest to older veterans and new discharges. Joseph R. Chenelly, the author is a writer for the site.

[Pepperbelly]

70. Will you guys please calm the fuck down?

Read the article instead of just freaking out and imagining things.

-snip-

“This is making a lot of us think about not reenlisting.” Ferguson said. “You have to think about whether it is worth risking your neck for someone who will turn around and shoot at you. We didn’t come here to fight a war. We came here to help.”

-snip-

Numerous soldiers also told Army Times that they have been shot at by armed civilians in New Orleans. Spokesmen for the Joint Task Force Headquarters at the Superdome were unaware of any servicemen being wounded in the streets, although one soldier is recovering from a gunshot wound sustained during a struggle with a civilian in the dome Wednesday night.

-snip-

“I never thought that at a National Guardsman I would be shot at by other Americans,” said Spc. Philip Baccus of the 527th Engineer Battalion. “And I never thought I’d have to carry a rifle when on a hurricane relief mission. This is a disgrace.”

Before deciding that it's open season on Americans by the government, would you take two deep breaths and actually see what the information actually tells you. What is your stake in losing your shit over every scrap of information?

[Minstrel Boy]

71. "This place is going to look like Little Somalia"

"calm the fuck down"?

[Pepperbelly]

75. Yes.

Exactly. This information is old, even though it was published yesterday.

When you see actual reports of this happening, let me know. Until then, it is irresponsible to add to the panic that a disaster of this magnitude creates naturally. The gist of the article was that the soldiers were amazed that they were being fired upon while doing hurricane relief. You cherry picked the parts that could cause panic and put them out there.

Why did you do that? Why did you cherry-pick only those things that make people feel even more alienated? What is your agenda in fostering even more paranoia?

[Minstrel Boy]

78. "cherry picked"? The headline is "combat operations"

"Combat operations" - "insurgents" - "Little Somalia"

Am I being hysterical or fearmongering for thinking this language from the military deserves attention?

I think it's you who wants to bury the lead.

[Pepperbelly]

80. whatever ...

The troops have been in there since Friday and I have heard no reports of them killing NO residents. General Honere' would not allow that and if you think that he would, I think you are dead wrong.

I never bury my head. But neither do I chicken-little BULLSHIT when there are enough real issues on the ground.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

84. None of this would be taking place if the NeoCon Junta had been....

...more worried about the evacuation of ALL of the occupants of New Orleans instead of what was going to happen to the off-shore oil rigs.

Soldiers are carrying arms because of the extreme lateness of the so-called "rescue operation" that allowed the conditions inside New Orleans to deteriorate badly, and the basic fact that they have been ordered to do so.

If the NeoCon Junta was REALLY concerned about the survivors located at the Convention Center and the Superdome, they would have made every effort to get those people out of the city instead of continuing to make them sit outside in the elements for close to 36 hours.

As to your claim that some posters are losing their "shit over every scrap of information", I would argue that the totality of information received to date does not make me real confident about the situation.

Additionally, I tend to get VERY concerned when the military commander of the so-called "rescue effort" makes comments about the "insurgency" and treating the area like "Somalia" with "combat operations".

[PsychoDad]

72. “This place is going to look like Little Somalia,”

What, full of poor blacks traped there?

Isn't that thinly veiled racism?

[Renew Deal]

77. Are the locals armed with guns, bombs and RPG's?

:wtf:

[Renew Deal]

76. This is why you don't let soldiers talk to the press.

Because they say dumb shit in military speak that sounds scary to civilians. Until I see tanks, RPG's and the sort being used, I don't buy it.

Are they going to call in air strikes on looter hideouts? I doubt it.

[Minstrel Boy]

79. You know what? They not only say dumb shit,

they do dumb shit, too.

I think we need to pay attention to their language as they conduct combat operations in an American city.

[MADem]

82. Don't paint all of them with the brush reserved for a few stupid assholes

Most uniformed members are not like those idiots.

[Minstrel Boy]

83. I don't mean to.

Just the bastards who use language like this, and have the means to act out their fantasies.

[MADem]

87. I don't mean to jump on you, truly

I just get disheartened sometimes, when I see my compatriots maligned or stereotyped, and maybe I AM too sensitive about it.

All I can say is in all my years of service, I RARELY, not never, but RARELY, encountered assholes like that, and never during a Humanitarian Relief operation. Of course, as I moved up in rank, no one would dare spout that kind of shit around me, because I'd smack them back in decisive fashion (!).

But in truth, most kids in uniform are alot like the rest of us, some good, some bad, some stellar, others mediocre. Sometimes I think the media likes to get these John Wayne quotes, for what purpose, I have no idea--it sure doesn't HELP the situation.

[Frederik]

92. It's not a "kid in uniform"

It's a freakin' brigadier general saying that shit!

[MADem]

94. I know, I realize that now, see my remarks below nt

[Media_Lies_Daily]

89. Especially senior-level officers who should know better.

[MADem]

93. And, as I noted elsewhere, should know what happened in Somalia

Is he saying our uniformed personnel will be killed and dragged through the streets??? Dumb fucker. Little Somalia, indeed. Asshole!!!!

I hate it when ignorant jerks make the rest of us look bad.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

86. What disturbs me the most is the rank of the guy that's being quoted...

...people who reach that level are usually very carefully briefed about what they should or should not say in public.

The question I have, is he just repeating what has been discussed in meetings with other senior officers and officials, or is he a "loose cannon" that needs to be reined-in or replaced?

[MADem]

90. Or a spot promote due to casualty losses

In any event, I will bet that stupid fucker has reached his terminal rank...

On edit: You'd think the stupid shitbird would have stayed awake at War College--had he so done, he would have realized that we did not do too goddamn well in Somalia. Asshole!

[Frederik]

91. A brigadier general

should know what is appropriate and not. That is why this is so disturbing. This isn't some clueless Rambo private or sargeant.

[Mutley]

88. I emailed those assholes.

Here it is:

How DARE you call those people in NOLA insurgents! http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1077495.php You should be ashamed of yourselves! Those are AMERICAN CITIZENS you are talking about, not Iraqis, not terrorists. They are desperate, starving, frightened people who are only trying to survive while thousands die around them. I suggest you remove that little comment from your article before I email it to every media outlet I can possibly find.

=====================================================================

Here is the link if you'd like to email them, too:
http://www.armytimes.com/static.php?f=general_feedback2.php

[Ms. Clio]

96. Why are all the dark jokes coming true? Didn't a DUer predict this

I could have sworn I read someone say that soon they would be calling the dying people of New Orleans "insurgents."