This is the death of democracy in America. This is the end.

[wli]

The left has been the target of incessant attacks by the right wing in America since the mid-1800's or earlier. This is naked neo-Nazi fascism. This is full-blown racist genocide. This is tanks-in-the-street martial law. This is Michael Ledeen's "creative destruction" and Grover Norquist's infamous bathtub.

The left, long subject to military assaults, COINTELPRO frame jobs, false imprisonment, voter disenfranchisement, prisonmandering, and the like, is now in its final throes as captives locked in death camps to die of dehydration and starve to death at gunpoint. The Democratic Party, with the exception of fewer brave souls than you can count on one hand who have refused to cow in terror before the prospects of Wellstoning and anthraxing, is thoroughly infiltrated and/or intimidated into utter subjugation and submission to the genocidal Republican agenda. And the horrors in New Orleans are now the future of every "blue" city, state, or "stronghold" subject to Bush's military occupation, for which he will doubtless invent pretexts if none present themselves easily enough, and concomitant genocidal campaigns against Democrats.

The fascist break happened long ago. The genocide in New Orleans is only the beginning of a larger, bolder campaign to exterminate us completely and impose overt martial law (as opposed to the increasing militarization of the police, which is de facto martial law anyway) over every "blue" area Bush feels the whim to point his "eliminationist rhetoric" at. The death squads are out in force in the streets of New Orleans. When the job is done there, pretexts will be invented for them to roam the streets of our home cities, the blue cities. The rank and file stormtroopers are already terrorizing us with chemical weapons like pepperspray and teargas. The death squads and death camps in New Orleans are the next step.

I have one and only one "positive message:" run for your lives. Get out of this country while you still can. Get out before Bush's "final solution" to the "liberal question" is implemented where you live.

[Tinoire]

1. I can only quietly recommend this post. My analysis exactly

and I've felt it in my soul for several months now. :cry:

[ClayZ]

2. Hell and High Water have Come!

:cry:

[niallmac]

56. Heil and high water.

[aquart]

3. Oh, good grief. Stop whining.

Yeah, we got fascists. So what? We got cockroaches, too.

You have them blown up in your mind as this invinceable force that we can never win against. Oh P U. Go sit under a bridge and wring your hands.

Useless.

They fuck up. They just fucked up beyond all recognition. Everyone knows it. Now, we can act like you, or we can seize this advantage (what a disgusting thing to say about the human misery they caused) be ready with real, solid plans as they implode.

Take your defeatist crap to Karl Rove. He'll love it. And he needs something to cheer him up.

[wli]

4. Feel free to suggest a method of holding them accountable. n/t

[Matariki]

5. there has been a tremendous amount of apathy in this country

and that is changing. don't give in to fear and hopelessness.

[wli]

10. Trouble is the criminals have total control of the government.

Legislative, executive, and judicial branches. They control all of the highest courts. They've already committed numerous treasonous acts and crimes against humanity and not a single one has resulted in meaningful prosecution of the offenders.

This is not defeatism. This is recognizing the fact we no longer have any kind of legitimate government. The state has been fully criminalized and has total impunity to commit more crimes as it sees fit.

What is the "accountability" the people are supposed to be able to bring? Votes? No, those are counted by rigged optiscan and Diebold et al machines. Lawsuits? No, those are locked down by the Federalist Society. Protests? Well, they have no trouble smashing WTO/FTAA protests with chemical weapons, and New Orleans proves the morality level to be consistent with wholesale massacre as opposed to any recognition of the will of the people.

There is nothing I'd want more than a return to legitimate, constitutional governance. But the facts do not lend themselves to any outcome that would lead to such.

[katahdin]

64. Criminal charges

World Court? International Help?

[wli]

104. Rumsfeld got a genocide charge dropped...

It's not clear that any government in the world feels safe enough from the US military to weigh in as far as the ICC goes.

[Brundle_Fly]

8. Agreed

this screw up is just another of a string of major goofs.

Iraq is a quagmire, NOLA is a quagmire, Osama dead or alive my ass, better responses after 911, new departments, bigger politics etc etc etc.

Bush and the cronies are going to lose republicans, firstly, I can't imagine running in the south in 2006 and sticking * on my press packs and promotional gear. 10 foot pole isnt going to be long enough.

Second, the congress and the senate are going to switch, mark my words, people are fed up, Impeachment is abound.

Buck up, quit taking cover, speak your mind, this nightmare will end.

[Prodemsouth]

28. Are you from the south? I don't think they will lose that big down

here..if not gain seats. If you are a blue stater I would suggest you work to knock off Senators like Chafee, Snowe, etc- places were Democrats do win and look at moderate or marginal congressional seats in blue states. You are not going to get anymore seats out of the south. Sorry, but most of my fellow white southerners are the dumb ass, racist, narrow minds that liberal or blue people usually assume they are. They are not going to want to admit they are wrong about Bush. As one poster said yesterday you don't become a right winger by evaluating evidence and questioning what you are told. The people in NO..give me a break..most don't even care around here..just going about their business yesterday. Even the blacks here in GA, it was if nothing happened. Many blacks have been disenfranchised- they went high tech this time with voting machines instead of Jim Crowe. Now we have to have some sort of ID to vote here in GA. They are doing what their grandfathers or great granfathers did their just high tech and instead of being "Democrats" they are Republicans. Will the black mega churches help these poor voters get these ID cards, I don't know they seem more interested in Gay Marriage and other stuff. They are over flowing with money too. They are "crossing party lines" etc. In short I don't think you have a grasp on the political reality down here.

[AverageJoe]

50. I hate to agree with this, but I must

Here in Alabama, where it seems like 4 out of 5 cars have those horrid black "W" stickers on the rear window, I cannot imagine Bush losing much support. His supporters are not necessarily stupid, but they are ignorant and blind. A good many of them are actually nice people, believe it or not. They just cannot see the evil all about them.

It is a consequence of being raised in this closed, reactionary culture, of course, rather than anything genetic or otherwise pre-ordained. The church probably deserves much of the blame. Many of these folks would be passionatly progressive if they had been raised in a progressive state. We must do something to change the culture of the South, but I'll be damned if I know what that something might be.

[Qibing Zero]

52. Yes, and I know florida is not overall 'the south', but

papers like the orlando sentinel are completely soft on all of this, and the biggest editorial response they can gather up to make is 'the governor and mayor and maybe that FEMA guy are responsible'. Hell, they're such a 'local' paper that very little of their editorial stuff is ever on the current country/world news. In fact, that pretty much sums the area in which I live perfectly (small town, central florida).

[MADem]

72. No one EVER thought they would turn on Nixon

He lost the support of the people before he lost the support of Congress. Barry Goldwater had to tell him, it's US or YOU, so fuck you, Dick....

We'll see how long the diehards hang on when that "W" car they are driving costs seventy bucks to fill up.

All politics is local, and pick-me-up trucks with a rack in the back is about as local as one can get.

[DBoon]

74. There are no Barry Goldwaters in the Republican Party now

Any independent wing of that party that would stand up to the white hosue was long ago purged or threatened into silence.

[King Coal]

123. Hagel???

[wli]

128. Doubtful. He has too large a stake in Diebold et al. n/t

[Qibing Zero]

9. Alright, yes, we all see it - even many of the blind ones before.

I'll ask you the question that needs to be asked.

What are we going to do about it?

If everyone in DC decides bush and co. are off the hook, what are WE going to do about it?

[wli]

12. Tell me what a protest is supposed to accomplish.

Have they ever influenced policy in any way? Is there any indication whatsoever they would influence THIS administration's policies?

As far as I can tell, to the Bush administration, protests are little more than invitations to militarily assault civilians with chemical weapons and various forms of "nonlethal weapons" (which of course kill plenty).

[Qibing Zero]

15. This has been running through my mind the past few days.

Even if a huge protest goes off in DC or somewhere without massive law enforcement problems - which I can't see happening - what good will it do?

The best we can hope for is that we give a few people in congress the gall to stand up. Even if every dem stands up (ha), they're still outnumbered.

And if that's not enough? What happens? We put up with it until it's 'over'?


I'm not saying we're out of options, I'm saying that we may not want to discuss the options we do have.

[ClayZ]

19. Ukraine Protest

"Our nation is finally awake," said Yurig Shekurko, 28, a priest in the country's Greek Catholic church, who travelled to the capital from Starii Sambir on the Polish border. "Before, we talked and complained, but now we're actually doing something."





http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/People-power-may-ruin-Putins-dream/2004/11/25/1101219681945.html#top

[wli]

This is a story of a protest happening, but not its results.

The results are far less clear to me.

[ClayZ]

36. Orange Revolution

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_revolution

Due in large part to the movement's efforts, the results of the original run-off were annulled and a second run-off election was ordered by Ukraine's Supreme Court for December 26, 2004. Under intense international scrutiny, the official results of the second run-off proved to be virtually problem-free, legally valid and clearly in Yuschenko's favor. He was declared the official winner and with his inauguration on January 23, 2005 in Kiev, the Orange Revolution reached its successful and peaceful conclusion.

[wli]

39. I'm jealous of the Ukraine already.

It's pretty sad that the outrage over our own election fraud was so muted it never got anywhere.

[ClayZ]

43. Now more people are outraged!

The paradigm shifts!

[Qibing Zero]

35. Perhaps you can enlighten me further,

I don't know too much about that entire situation and how it would relate to ours here. I know it was about election fraud and ended with that huge protest and a rerun, but what similarities would it have with our current plight? Why would the US fail in finding some way to end it? What if they give the crowd bush's head and another figurehead takes place?

[wli]

37. Bush's head + another figurehead is the most I expect myself. n/t

[Joebert]

106. I've been saying this one for a while.

But those posts or threads keep getting whacked.

Bush has zero power. He's incapable of operating a TV set much less the government.

They'll offer him up for sacrifice, appoint their own replacement, and bam, they're an incumbent for 2008.

[bunny planet]

61. I guess maybe you missed the sixties. Protests helped end the Vietnam

War. I'd say a few immensely large protests could have some real effect, if the newly conscious media will cover them this time.

[wli]

103. Okay, please explain how they ended the Vietnam war. n/t

[bunny planet]

133. Didn't say they ended it, I said they were a contributing factor in ending

it. The mood in the country was gradually more and more anti-war, and even though Nixon tried to suppress and censor, and intimidate anti-war activists, the movement was so huge, and so new, he wasn't able to do it . People just continued to protest, in large numbers, and when the Vietnam Vets against the War got into the act it really was a very strong voice for our side. I was a young teenager, I will never forget the feeling we had that we made a difference in ending that war. We did have a draft however, and that galvanized a lot more people. I sure hope that's not what it's going to take this time. The other part of the power of people's voices in the 60's of course, was a 'real' fourth estate, something we have only sporadically now, back then they actually reported people's discontent on the ground, and the House and Senate did not have one-party rule. Big diff.

Let's see if Katrina has finally radicalized the press into reporting the truth consistently. They've got a big test coming up this week, is it going to be all Robert's all the time, or are they going to continue to focus on the situation in NOLA as they should.

[Autonomy]

68. Heh heh, fascist cockroaches.

I agree. No defeatism necessary. As the Original Poster said, they've been pulling this crap since the mid-1800s with their anti-workers policies, even earlier when you consider slavery. So why do we have unions, and workers' rights, and civil rights legislation? They haven't won yet in 150+ years, and they had a greater veil of secrecy then. In fact, they've been constantly and consistently LOSING on every major issue over time. The truth is, no matter how much of the government they take over at any given time, they can't win. The Supreme Court could be a giant step backward, but they could only undo a little of the liberalization of America over the last 150 years, and even then only temporarily.

Not that we should stop fighting them just because we are guaranteed of winning. We are the reason we are guaranteed of winning.

[Mr_Spock]

91. Well said

I wouldn't have said it any differently. We have been winning for the entire time and we will continue to improve the lot of man in spite of the paranoid kooks trying to bring us back in time - and in spite of the doubting Thomas' who would bring us down here in our own house.

[wli]

105. Far from attempting to "bring anyone down"

I'm really anticipating something like a Nazi Germany style holocaust. People DID protest Nazi Germany and they DID object and try to present political opposition. And they were exterminated.

[MADem]

71. I'm with you, NOW is the time, CARPE DIEM

A helluva tide came in, and now the tide is turning. We have all the BIG MO on OUR side.

Defeatism is definitely not a winning strategy. These GOP assholes are running around still trying to find their underwear while the rest of the world is dressed for fucking dinner.

Time to sucker punch the bastards while they are pulling up their drawers....

IMHO.

FAILURE TO LEAD--say it loud and often!!!

[wli]

107. Rushing headlong into massacres and death camps is a losing strategy.

At some point you have to figure out that specific long-used avenues of expression have been permanently shut down by combinations of overwhelming force and spin machines that can literally cover up the fact massive protests happened at all (c.f. 2004 RNC protests or Miami FTAA protests; very little of the general public is even aware they ever happened). Almost no one outside of DU or similar is even aware of WTO/FTAA/etc. issues despite those protests. If they've heard anything, all they heard was that there were "anarchists" in Seattle in 2000 and not much else.

And knowing when to run is another very significant part of the battle. If you suicidally employ some long-defeated tactic against an unassailable enemy, you won't live to "fight" another day.

[Mr_Spock]

87. Tell me about it - who would be trying to make us quit?

A plant? This is the stupidest crap I've read here in a long time.

[wli]

108. I am no plant. I'm also not saying to "quit."

Take it at face value, even if you disagree with it. It was written with full honesty on my part as an assessment of how dire things truly are.

[ChiciB1]

98. Hand Me A Musket!

And I'm totally am against Guns!!! Or better yet maybe we can use some of the filthy stagnant, diseased water and slime them with it. Bottle it and HEAVE HO!

Come and get ME you ass-wipes!!!

[pretzel4gore]

6. oh c'mon, bullys are cowards....

i'll take out a couple, you do too and multiply that by a few million and poof there goes another rubbertree plant hahaha
those pigs are terrified at what's happening- they can't let go, but they can't hang on much longer either...the usa and canada etc aren't fascistic peoples, despite endless conditioning...stupid people aren't effective when they KNOW they're stupid (and burying babies alive is stupid) so we must keep in mind we are the majority and bushinc is becoming repulsive even to blue haired grannies (who act stupid cuz it's usually a balance to the worldly excess of the youngsters)
remember "nothing fails like success when you're working for the devil"
and that's because the devil is, in the final analysis, stupid....

[wli]

16. Unfortunately the calculus of casualties doesn't work that way.

The kill ratios for those equipped with heavy military hardware against civilians are enormous. As far as I can tell, every single civilian in the country could rise up in an armed insurrection and they could literally kill them all. The only explanation for e.g. Iraq is an "unwillingness to kill" in order to preserve international image. New Orleans proves they've shed that unwillingness, right on their own people.

[pretzel4gore]

45. don't empower them

i know you're feeling helpless and frustrated (and scared) by the ignorance etc but it's bush and them freaks who are at odds with society (even while having all those advantages, most of which they committed endless crimes to achieve!)....believe me, hyperventilating is the latest bushevik private exercise! lol...they've been caught red handded and there's no way out but brute force, and believe me, it's we who really control that!
i wasn't referring to jackbooted boors when i mentioned 'taking out' a couple; i meant mediawhores...they are everywhere and (notice) they're just a little less unpleasant now then last month. that's because they are cowards, liars and thieves, and want to get away with life limb etc (which isn't necessary, or desireable imo hahaha)
btw, if as you say, things are so far gone that the forces of ignorance prevail over the country, then why do you worry? if that happens, the political power behind such a result is greater then its counter-and people want the uglyness etc...geez, i don't think anyone has the right to keep a pig from his swill; indeed, we should encourage them to slop it up!)

[MADem]

75. You act like "the military" is NOT US

Do you have any idea how many people on this board served in the Armed Forces, or are serving now?

We are not ROBOTS--we think, we reason, and a shitload of us vote Democratic. And we take our fucking oath to defend the CONSTITUTION quite seriously, thank you very much.

[wli]

109. Unfortunately "the military" as stated isn't limited to native recruits.

It also includes Blackwater and possibly even foreign mercenaries, immigration-oriented recruits (ones that signed on to get citizenship), and possibly even imported troops from other countries in "alliance" with the corrupt government.

[Qibing Zero]

7. Oh don't we all wish we could cast this off and say it's wrong.

The wall separating some of us from the reality of it all has finally been broken down. This is utter madness.

[smurfygirl]

11. if we all leave, who will stay to help put up a fight

for freedom?

What makes you think you are safe somewhere else? Have you seen any other country really care to stop this administration?
These fuckers are running the whole damn globe...we can't keep running everywhere. Someone has to stay and fight.

[wli]

17. I'm convinced it's not possible to fight them.

At least not without getting not only defeated, but slaughtered.

[barbaraann]

22. Live free or die.

I decided that when I started posting on DU years ago. I decided that if I didn't fight they would enslave or kill me so why not fight and have a chance at freedom. To me the logic is inescapable.

[StellaBlue]

80. LIVE FREE OR DIE

I've come around to this view, too.

[stickdog]

24. Then you are simply a coward & you should learn to love Big Brother.

For the rest of us, there is hope as long as any of us are alive.

[wli]

27. Suicide-by-cop vs. suicide-by-self-lobotimization is no choice.

It's Zugzwang. There is no beneficial move to make, and one is required.

[stickdog]

31. Organize people. This is a battle of wills and memes. (nt)

[zoeybug]

13. Hell, I'm hoping it's a new beginning

The general public realizes what has been happening. I hope that they will move towards a government by the people - for the people.

All my Catholic-right friends have abandoned the republican ship. These are people that were hard-core Bush supporters during the last elections. They are good people and care about others.


edited for crappy spelling

[Tsiyu]

14. Bullshit

There are too many of us, and we won't all be hampered by poverty and floodwaters if this approach is attempted on a broad scale. No way.

Nearly every man, woman and child would revolt. Nearly every soldier would desert. Look at the deployed soldiers supporting Cindy Sheehan!

Do you honestly think the Regular Joes in the military will do this on a grand scale? I don't.

The only way ** will succeed is if he brings in non - American troops and demands that regular citizens turn in their weapons. The Freepers heads will explode then and that Cushy spot in the top 1% will become the most dangerous spot to be in because the entire 99% not protected by the foreign troops will hunt down and destroy every last one of the 1%.

Have some faith in your countrymen, stop watching that goddamned FU(X) News and go meet your neighbors. Get out in your community and find some like-minded people. Stop getting tossed and turned by every evil thing the idiots among us utter. They want you on edge.

Hell, we're all gonna die someday. Don't be afraid of evil. Fear kills, too, you know.

[wli]

18. The foreign troops aspect is one I've already considered.

And the fact is there are already numerous foreign troops brought in from US territories or illegal immigrant populations with promises of US citizenship. And then there are Blackwater and other mercenaries.

The corporatists/globalists do indeed have such forces. They also have another: the freepers and/or hard right wing. They are willing to kill us. They may not enlist, but they'd certainly be willing to participate in officially-sanctioned lynch mobs.

I really, really hope you're right. But my hopes have been dashed so very many times before even that hope is feeble nostalgia, and the terrifying naked reality of horror in my face says the exact opposite.

[Tsiyu]

33. There are too many BADASS Democrats

They are the ones who enlist, who study history, who know how the land truly lays.

They know how to organize for good, they understand how things work and they know how to handle weapons. They love this country enough to get dirty for it.

None of the FEMA guys I've seen seem to get dirty. Too much "hard work." They like the sterile, clean state of Pious Purity. When their foreign troops get picked off and blown up, do you honestly believe the George Bushes and Dick Cheneys of this world and all the Bush/ Cheney wannabes will soil themselves by doing their OWN killing?

If it came to this, the 270,000,000 would kick the shit out of the 3,000,000.


It won't come to this.

[fooj]

127. I've been worried about the troop situation. I heard about that, too.

Peace.

[datasuspect]

55. we'll be hampered by teevee and marketing

this is what keeps us docile.

the "power" is benchmarking right now: seeing what the public will tolerate . . . and we tolerate a lot as long as they keep us chasing our tails financially.

higher and higher gas prices

american genocide

widespread voter fraud

and so on

[natrat]

58. tv is like mass hpnotism

give em there footbal games and entertainment tonight and junk food to keep em obese. Amp up the party line on fox and nbc and they got it made.What an ugly bunch.

[LibertyorDeath]

129. You got it.

"the "power" is benchmarking right now: seeing what the public will tolerate . . . and we tolerate a lot as long as they keep us chasing our tails financially."

[MADem]

73. Thank you for speaking up for the Regular Joes, and Janes

...in the military. One of the curious things about an all volunteer force, they are more mature, better educated, better trained, and some of the smartest, most thinking young people I have ever had the pleasure to lead. They will NOT be conned.

This is still Bill Clinton's military--the finest military in the world. They suffer mightily with an incompetent commander in thief nowadays, but they are loyal to their oath to preserve, protect and defend their constitution, against all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC...

[wli]

110. My "the military" moniker included those you would not

For instance, Blackwater and even foreign mercenaries, foreign recruits taken on with promises of citizenship, and even forces from countries "allied" with the corporatists.

[mogster]

20. No, it isn't

The US 2005 isn't the Weimar republic, and the age we live in isn't the 1930's.

Bush is weaker than ever if you judge by the polls - even though none will poll 'impeachment'.
The MSM has been forced to report from NOLA and they are just as shocked as the rest. Propaganda still exists, but things are definately looking different than just two weeks ago.
The non-US MSM have awakened to a much more critical degree - I haven't seen this much Bush-slaughtering reporting since the election.
The body-count hasn't started for real - Bush must take the toll of that when it starts.
There is gonna be a march on Washington soon - opportuinity knocks.
Then there is Cindy and the peace movement.

Don't lose hope - don't lose momentum.
Despair is a winning factor in fascism never discussed here. We know, the Europeans know, that despair and just plain fatigue is a driving factor in every takeover. Confusion, lack of information, lack of unity - all factors to be exploited by those that want power to play their game.

Keep your heads up. You are stronger now than ever, and every sane person would rally to defend you.

[Hubert Flottz]

57. Great Post!

I think Bush is losing ground too.

[barbaraann]

21. We've never had a real democracy.

We've only had the illusion of a democracy and a short post WWII-interlude of workers' rights because of some special circumstances. What I see is that now we have the hope of a true democracy only because of the internet and I don't know if we'll be able to make it work before the powers-that-be complete their final clampdown. It's a race between clampdown technology and information and activism. It's not a done deal but if we don't fight it IS a done deal, with we the people on the losing side.

[Qibing Zero]

23. I agree

The internet really does seem to be our last hope - in many ways.

Can you imagine where you'd be if you only got MSM news?

[barbaraann]

25. I can imagine because I lived through the VietNam years.

That's why I appreciate the internet, and especially DU, so much.

[wli]

26. I agree with almost all of this.

About the only thing where I've got "serious questions" is whether we can fend off the "final clampdown" at all.

[barbaraann]

32. I'd say we have a chance.

Although I wasn't heartened by how many Americans were obsessing on football yesterday while some Americans were begging for help to survive the day. :-(

[Zodiak]

66. as a football fan....

I understand completely...couldn't watch football yesterday with people dying.

[StellaBlue]

83. I agree

100%. This is what I have been thinking since 2000.

[StellaBlue]

88. 100& agree

I meant that this might be an opportunity for a REAL democracy, esp. through the Net... not that the end of our nation is nigh.

For clarification!

[pretzel4gore]

120. true...in the US post ww2 for about 35 years

it was wonderful. in the early 70's, a guy could BUY A HOUSE with only 2 years saving at a regular job (say a railroad worker, or in a paper mill, or even driving truck/police officer or so on) ...it sorta spoiled alot of us, made it appear natural or something but it was really unique...the post ww2 workers felt empowered, and there were millions of them: their kids felt the same power, and demanded a bit more when BANGBANGBANGSTOP! reagan etc......
we got a glimpse of what could have been, we put men on the moon several times, but george will and rush limbah-humbug and all the local mediawhores resented being left out (cuz they were) and that reagan bush is their revenge.
i think reagan and bush represent a jealousy extravanganza, covered over by expensive lies
btw the clampdown won't work, if only because the environment probably gonna take a breather from lying stinkpots like your greed is only good grasper...but a survival instinct is stirring and...well i hope we have time to exterminate fascism from the face of god's earth before it's 'every man for hisself'

[wli]

121. I suppose it is true that democracy has always been an illusion.

In that case alter "democracy" to "last vestiges of the appearance of a democracy" or similar.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wli]

34. But the very story you cite is long gone from most's memories.

Almost no one feels impassioned about that anymore. Not even JFK (the Church Committee was a whitewash). It all got spun, it was all forgotten.

[MadeinOhio]

38. Not anymore......

When the citizens are awake they see it all.....And Robert F Kennedy Jr's murder is being investigated by a jury (Bless his soul!!!! And condemn their black gold!) :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

You noticed the Juries really doing the lifting.....Are all citizen grand juries...

[wli]

40. Investigated right now? URL's? n/t

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Art_from_Ark]

47. So far as I know, Robert Kennedy, Jr. is still alive

As least he was as of January 2005

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0122-10.htm

You seem to be confusing him with John Kennedy, Jr., who went down in a plane crash.

[DemBones DemBones]

46. You mean JFK, Jr., the "plane crash."

Not RFK, Jr., who's still living.

[checks-n-balances]

49. I think you mean JFK, Jr. His cousin, RFK, Jr. is alive & well, I hope

even though the RWmedia would love to smear him to death.

[MadeinOhio]

51. Yeah you're right that's who I meant. n/t

[T Town Jake]

30. Think I'll stay. But you go right ahead.

(n/t)

[Stand and Fight]

41. I think your post is that of the alarmist position for sure...

But anything is possible. I recommend this because it is thought provoking, though I disagree with it on its face. I hope a discussion ensues as a result of your post, and thank you for sharing your thoughts. :hi:

[wli]

42. Thanks for the polite disagreement.

I'm very heartened by the positions of those who disagree with me on this thread in general, actually. It's been respectful (though sometimes resorting to profanity). This is a wonderful contrast to various calls to be silenced and/or silencings I've experienced in the past.

[NJCher]

48. this isn't planned

I think you're attributing far more to them than they are capable of. Look at the article put together by American Stranger that shows all they are really capable of is photo ops.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1751350

Yes, they did lay a foundation(Federalist Society, et al) but their sheer, utter incompetence at governance is pulling their accomplishment apart at the seams. The rats are jumping ship and there will be even more jumping ship as the weeks go on.

I can see where you pull together your scenario and led by more competent people, I've no doubt it could have happened. But it's not going to happen because these people are basically incompetent. In addition, they are self-absorbed (shopping for shoes!?!) and that prevents them from seeing the reality of their situation.

If you've any doubt at all about what I'm saying, just look at the pictures of them in recent weeks. Iraq itself had taken its toll: bush looking haggard, tired, beat up and with a wattle. Cheney, looking like a South Park character, hands shoved in his pockets and looking like a boy who'd been caught shoplifting. Now, with the media turning on them with a vengeance, things are really going to get interesting.




Cher

[wli]

111. Well, IMHO the only part that wasn't really planned on was...

The magnitude of the disaster. They expected a hit on NOLA (naturally occurring, no tinfoil weather control) that would merely purge it of the black and poor (e.g. category <= 3). They completely forgot the massive infrastructure surrounding it, didn't expect AL or MS to get hit so hard, nor oil rigs to get hit so hard, and so on.

[checks-n-balances]

53. Partially agreed, but not all can 'run for your lives' e.g. New Orleans

If all of us who were capable of running did leave, we'd be abandoning those who don't have the means to do so - witness the vulnerable survivors & non-survivors still left behind in New Orleans.

They have felt abandoned in NOLA. Imagine the fate of those left behind if all the non-fascists leave this country. Sometimes I'd like to, but we must stay and fight.

Fascist dictatorships have been known to at least try and takeover other countries. Whether the Neocon movement is dead or not as some have concluded lately, part of their raison d'etre is international power. If so, we dare not leave this country in their hands.

[wli]

114. It will not be equitable, but if the assumptions hold, there's no choice

If the scenario I depict holds, it's very close in nature to the Jews fleeing Nazi Germany. They had no reasonable expectation of effectively "fighting back," they were getting exterminated en masse, and so on. I see zero barriers preventing this sort of affair from recurring on a politicized and Afro-centric fashion vs. a Judeocentric fashion.

Every day produces a new "downtick" in the support for the left. The lines have been crossed. Military responses to political action are already rampant. In fact, military responses to social gatherings such as concerts serving primarily left-leaning participants are already occurring (c.f. Utah techno concert raid). Lethal force is not just on the table but explicitly authorized, as New Orleans' "shoot to kill" orders prove.

Do you need seriously need a THIRD attack on a Democratic city to connect the dots with dark enough lines for you?

That said, the best thing I can hope for is being wrong.

[pretzel4gore]

122. and what about the cats?

this is where the pigmedia has made a big mistake....how does a population that can barely afford to get out itself in person leave behind the pets? even the middle class and well to do who evacuated NOLA before katrina struck would have been forced to pack up the animals, and in GOD KNOWS how many cases, many said no way and stayed to watch over their little friends instead....even moreso for the poor and elderly and those with mental illness etc- i would not leave my cats to katrina, and in the entire country i cannot imagine anyone thinking any population would be just casually protesting and that's all if forced to do so!
the evacuation of NOLA, even if it had only 72 hours, would have had to include the valuables of all the people, many whom are hidden away from loudmouth society. bush and his eviks are about the last people on earth to display such refined densibility..they are, especially the 'christians' coarse brutes with nasty joyless lives whose pretenses don't even embarrass them when pigmedia treats their thoughts as if there's wit there....the pigmedia is evil

[bajamary]

54. Impeach CEO Bush-Now

Enough is enough. I've emailed my Senators Durbin and Obama and my congressperson to begin an impeachment hearing immediately.

We the People should demand that this president be the CEO that he claims to be and resign from his position of honor and trust. Any other CEO whose horrible job performance caused hundreds, perhaps thousands, to die would be fired by the corporations board of directors.

WE (the People) ARE THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS of this beleaguered country, and it’s time we demanded our hired CEO leave his job. If he doesn’t, we throw him out via impeachment and a trial in the Senate.

[leeroysphitz]

77. Oh, you've emailed Senator Durbin?

Then I guess were all saved. Thank god this nightmare is finally over./sarc

Sorry but our side needs some leadership. If there is an opportunity here we'll miss for lack of leadership.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Alizaryn]

60. Actually, crazy as it might sound I see this

as being the possible BEGINNING of our Democracy.

The death of New Orleans has given us as a nation, of all political ideologies, the opportunity to see clearly the reality of our leadership and state of the nation.
We the people need to choose to change.
We the people need to choose life.
My hopes are that this ongoing tragedy wakes We the people the hell up!

[struggle4progress]

62. Or start rehearsing historical quotes: "I regret I have but one life ..

.. to give for my country" ...

[stubtoe]

63. No it's not the end.

Our government is in our own hands. This is not the time to despair. Don't throw your armor down NOW! We got work ahead of us. Good thing there are plenty of us like-minded around to do it.

[katahdin]

65. What Agency Can File Criminal Charges

Against these thugs at the request of the American People? The World Court? ACLU? Legal action might help drive impeachment?

[stubtoe]

69. We can!

Time to demand impeachment from our congressional reps. Write them letters, write LTE's, sign petitions, get information out to the public.

Anybody want to help me work up a laundry list of impeachable crimes already committed by the administration? Small, easy to read bullets... We can ice the cake with examples of gross incompetence. Then mail the list to congress and start demanding action.

Then send list to friends to send to their congressional reps.

I think there's plenty of momentum to capitalize on right now.

[wli]

115. I've no reason to believe our reps will listen.

They're all DLC corporatist police state shills with a few token Congressional Black Caucus members actually trying to present any opposition at all. Fitzgerald is going nowhere near the top that we can tell and Margolis is a radical right-wing operative now in charge of censoring him.

The litigation front looks rather thoroughly lost to me.

[stubtoe]

70. DU'ers working on it already!

Wha'd I tell ya. See this thread. Keep an eye on it as more goodies get added:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2061707

[mnhtnbb]

67. We've bought land in Panama

and contracted to build a house. We had hoped we'd have several more years before retiring there since we still have a 10th grade boy.
Looks like he might have to finish high school abroad.

I just hope we can get the place built before the whole country goes to hell.

[RBHam]

76. See you in the gulag

Maybe not, I'll go down fighting

[Mr_Spock]

78. Uggh, do we have people here that believe this crap?

I thought the right-wing "the end is here" armageddon types were the only crazies in politics, then somebody posts something like this that many people here will not realize is just a joke.

22 people voted this thread for Greatest?

"genocide in New Orleans?", gross incompetence maybe, but GENOCIDE?

You shouldn't be saying such idiotic things, not everyone will know you are just being sarcastic.

[RBHam]

90. The truth is staring you right in the face.

Explain "Homeland Security" setting up a cordon around New Orleans, not allowing people in or out, refusing to allow the Red Cross in, refusing to drop water, food or mediceine, not bringing supplies in with the buses while they evacuated...

on and on and on...

this is incompetence on a GRAND scale...

yet...

the Carlyle/Halliburton Administration rolls on...

They get their nightmare scenario to test out their Martial Law wet dreams...

They get the suspension of Posse Comitatus...

and Halliburton gets the contract to REBUILD New Orleans...

heh...

I'm not insane...

I just wish I were

www.globalresearch.ca

Learn the truth

[Mr_Spock]

92. Fine - try to destroy DU and the Democratic party with your paranoia

Just don't ask me for any help - I live in a system that is not perfect where even incompetent foolish morons can be put into power. They are so incompetent that you may even want to think they did it on purpose. That is a big mistake and a waste of a perfectly good mind that could be working to improve things within the guildelines of the Constitution. If you and your ilk want to destroy the Democratic party with your paranoia, go create a site where you can pedal your insanity. This is such a self-destructive way of thinking and will only lead to a self-fulfilling prophesy. If you are suicidal, keep it to yourself - you shouldn't be trying to take the rest of us down during a time of crisis x(

[wli]

117. You're gravely mistaken regarding the motives. I speak at face value.

I sincerely posted the OP out of a concern to advise people to flee from the abuses of a regime which does not appear to be effectively challengeable.

I welcome critiques and debunking. I do not welcome ad hominem or ridicule. Please, present an actual argument against what I said. I am aware what I wrote is effectively an op-ed piece and it is possible to write such arguments against its premise.

I'm asking you to present such in a coherent fashion. Your message is not going to get across in the manner you're presenting it, and you're only opening yourself up to charges of misrepresentation and/or spin without such. The "other side" of this "debate" (if it can be called such) will not get its proper airtime without a proper argument, which you are not now providing.

[wli]

113. It's not idiotic at all.

The New Zealand press is reporting 60K originally in the Superdome. Minus survivors evacuated to elsewhere that leaves a rather enormous body count due to locking the doors and defending exits at gunpoint. Marrero, LA got a leak out by phone (unclear whether landline or cell) indicating that only 60 out of 362 originally brought to the shelter survived. And so on.

Now, if you want to attribute locking 60K people into a deathtrap and defending the exits from which they could flee from it as "negligence" you are sadly mistaken. It was fully-informed, completely understood genocide.

[kestrel91316]

79. Nope. Ain't goin'. Ain't quittin'. They will have to kill me first.

Remember what Winston Churchill said:

Never give up. Never, never, never, never, never give up.

[Upfront]

81. This Boy Won't Run!

If it as you think, which I doubt, some will die before I go.

[Mr_Spock]

85. Tell me about it

I'd die before I quit. This is MY country, not some retarded rednecks. Who the fuck would promote quitting except a Freeper plant.

[Mr_Spock]

84. I'm making a list of crazy people who agree with this crap.

This is the most ludicrous piece of crap I've ever seen posted here.

[wli]

116. Please, rationally debunk it if it is so thoroughly wrong.

I am not deaf to criticism. Ad hominem and/or appeal to ridicule, OTOH, I despise. Please, make your case instead of writing up blacklists.

[Qibing Zero]

124. There's no need to insult people on the basis that...

..they don't have as much loyalty to the country as you. I have lived here all of my young life simply because I was born here, and I've never been one to blindly trust in my country. If you are seriously considering fighting to the end, at least consider the fact that you may want to take note of what your government could do to you.

I personally don't believe we should ever give up, but I'm being nothing but realistic when I agree that I don't think these guys are going to go out quietly.

[porphyrian]

86. I'm not letting these fuckers take my country.

Run if you want to. I, for one, will not let them take my America that easily. It's never too late to take it back, as long as we don't give up.

[Wizard777]

89. Though many of us may die in this battle to recover

our Government from this Supreme Leader. To restore the US Constitution to it former glory and place of prominence in our lives. AMERICA WILL SURVIVE! Where ever there are people that read, comprehend, and put into daily practise the concepts set forth in the US Constituion by our forefathers. There will be America. The United States of America shall forever live on in "We The People."

[AlienGirl]

93. Only if we give up on it!

American democracy survived the Civil War. It survived World War II. It survived Vietnam and Kent State. It has at times been damaged, but has always come back stronger. The only way it will end is if people are not committed to keeping it alive, even when it seems to have been dealt a killing blow. I believe in American democracy; I believe in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, and I believe we-the-people have the ability and the will to protect them.

Tucker

[wli]

118. That is not necessarily true.

It may be true, but it is not necessarily so. The point I've raised is in essence that it is (in my own view) time to run with one's tails between one's legs because it's not realistically possible to avert being exterminated. That is, the "resistance" to corporate fascism (if it merits such as a description) will get eliminated by force if it engages in ineffective counteraction. What comes out (albeit in a very sketchy fashion) is "the American territory is already overrun by fascism; flee to where one may live to fight it another day."

If you don't live to do so you are throwing your life away and harming the cause by so doing.

[Qibing Zero]

125. While I'm not sure I agree completely, this was very well said.

I'm not completely convinced it's hopeless here, but I do believe that if there's any chance, we're going to find out soon.

[terrya]

94. I can't do that.

I was born here, dammit.

I've lived in this country all of my life.

These are bad times here. No one is arguing with you. Certainly not me.

But goddammit....this is my country.

I'm not going to the fascists running this government drive me away from my country.

I can't do that.

And please...don't let them do that to you. Don't let them make you feel that you have to leave this country.

Please.

Terry

[wli]

119. There is a rather serious tactical question involved.

"Will you live to fight another day if you devote yourself to a lost cause?"

Right now, it appears to me that the answer is "no."

[mrsblister]

95. NATIONAL STRIKE

I haven't posted enough to start my own thread but I think the march on Washington scheduled for Sept. 24 should be supported by a National Strike as well. if half a million people march...it will be quite a spectacle that makes a whole 25 seconds of a splash on some of the MSM outlets.

With a broad scale National Strike...NOONE can marginalize the degree of outrage nor the numbers of us involved. There are certainly MILLIONS and MILLIONS of us who simply can't attend or participate in Washington or even local gatherings but we CAN make a difference collectively simply by not going in to work or calling in sick in support and solidarity with the others who are marching that day.

The rigged elections, the war, the corruption, ALL inclusive in this massive protest and when 100 million people don't go to work that day there will very certainly be a reckoning or at least a visible show of what our numbers REALLY are.

It starts with a voice...preferrably one with a microphone and perhaps that voice could encourage a few friends with microphones (Air America?) to begin spreading the word...

NOW is the time folks...anyone disagree?

(thanks for the platform)

[The2ndWheel]

96. Just a day's worth?

Not much of a dent there.

[WHAT]

97. no, it isn't...

no matter how much the ivy league is nurturing necrophilia a la exquisite corpse or something a fistful of compressed carbon, no matter how much they consider themselves diamonds, are still lacking the complexity of nitrogen. They don't colour the world, let alone define it. Hell, they're not even part of the "infrastructure", let alone noble gases.

Did anyone see bill crystal in his barber shop/ "blood letting? " tie?

cleaver?...no

stupid, as in right thumb...yes

[Zenlitened]

99. I will fight them in the streets before I flee. No fascist freaks...

... are taking MY country from me without some serious bloodshed before it all ends.

[undergroundpanther]

100. I can't afford to get out.

I will die like those in NOLA. Who is going to want Americas unwashed disabled masses yearning to be free.I'm a loo toon they do not consider me worthy I'd be a"burden"

Not getting out unless I got money or some coveted skill or talent to woo a contry with,.. artists are a dime a dozen.Therre are far better artists than I.I am doomed.

[undergroundpanther]

101. So since I am here and CAN'T go

These pigs will fear the panther and because of what they are,they will not escape what they do... there will be no hiding , these lizard hearted swine become prey! Grrrahasaarggh..Ruin to every greedy authoritrian bully con man piece of shit and the blinkered fools who love them and excuse them.

[prohemp]

102. Don't Run Get a Gun

I'm not saying violence is the answer, peace is. The leaders only have power, because we the people give it too them (taxdollars, etc) and because we the people allow them. The government can fall like a house of cards at anytime. And it probably will, though if it doesn't I agree with your assesment about death squads and death camps. Let me mention an unfortunate reality expressed by the founding fathers. "When the government does not fear the people, you have tyranny". Now that we see how pathetic FEMA really is I suspect the rumors that their main agenda really is creating concentration camps to round up the liberals and the dissidents. That is why they government is keeping tabs on what you read at the library, write on the internet. We are all on the list of people to be rounded up i fear. What holds them back is that there is a slight few on the left who are armed to the teeth and expert markmen. I agree the right is losing their political capital, but all it would take is for them too nuke and bioterror a couple US cities and wreak havok, for them to be in a position to do anything they wish.

[bridgit]

112. america has never REALLY been into democracy anyway...

hence the electoral college.

[Guaranteed]

126. While it's bad, it's not this bad. Not nearly this bad.

In fact, things have gotten much better for us "liberals" since before the election. The Repukes are now losing power- clearly, objectively, if you look at it that way.

This post is a little too alarmist for my taste. I would agree that our leadership needs to step up and start telling the country what should be happening (and I'm assuming that's the idea of the post). But what you're saying is, in many ways (particularly in the second paragraph; ON EDIT: and the third), pretty wacky, and a little overly-dramatic.

[wli]

130. It's not "drama" per se, but "what is the logical conclusion of this?"

And from that point of view, I'm on solid ground. Where it's more open to attack is that the logical conclusions of various actions are not necessarily likely to be pursued.

Where I really see the debate forming is between the various prevailing and countervailing forces leading the neocons to the logical conclusions of their actions. This is inconclusive as far as I can tell. If it weren't, we could get an unprecedented glimpse at the political future.

[Dem2theMax]

131. Nope. They can kill me where I stand. I'm not moving an inch.

Then again, I don't think we're the ones with the problems now.
Bush was run over by a lady named Katrina. In my opinion, he's done.

[SmileyBoy]

132. "Bring out your dead!! The Man With No Face cometh!!!"

Gawd, could you be any more negative in this post?? I mean, really...

[Cocoa]

134. I hate this kind of stuff

creepy fearmongering that reminds me of RW paranoid fantasies, though of course it supposedly comes from the "left"

[Moderator]

135. Locking

This has run its course.