I've been looking at the Right Wing sites, they are arrogantly certain

[Walt Starr]

Bush will feel no heat from this debacle.

Their reasoning? They claim it was Blanco's and NAgins fault for not requesting the aid under the Stafford act.

One little document shoots the hole in their goddamned boat that PROVES, Blanco and Nagin did what was required. Brown and Chertoff deterined ti was okay to let brown people die in the streets of New Orleans.

This is the end for Bush. Keep hammering the truth.

[whistle]

1. Also claimed that the 9-11 events were Iraq's fault.....

...Wrong back then, also wrong now!

[Lindsay]

2. Gotta give 'em that.

They're consistent.

Fuckers.

[ThoughtCriminal]

3. Seen the same thing on neutral board debate

This seems to be the talking point they've settled into. At the top, they have to be terrified.

[freeplessinseattle]

7. I know, it's driving me crazy

all they do is say, yeah, everyone shares blame, which somehow means smirk is off the hook. It "takes time" to coordinate efforts.

I need an article about that interview on BBC that noted smirk didn't give approval for days. the tv link is good, but an article better. people are really pissing me off, I just can't be around anyone right now that is defending the prez, I will completely blow a gasket.

and if the school busses ahd been used to evacuate? there'd still have been a huge problem. I guess shrub just figured since they were caught a little unprepared they deserve no help. motherfucker.

[ThoughtCriminal]

16. Not exactly

The ones I see are not saying everyone shares blame. They can't deal with ANY blame for the administration - ZERO.

It does not bother them when overwhelming evidence destroys a talking point. They just ignore the rebuttal and pull out a new one (that usually contradicts a previous one). Later they will repeat the same talking point again. Example: They will absolutely deny that the disaster could be foreseen, and after that gets demolished, they will blame the victims for not evacuating in time. Later they will go back to the "unforeseen" argument.

Keep in mind - many of them REALLY DO KNOW BUSH SCREWED UP. They just don't care - except for the fact that admitting it would endanger whatever their pet agenda is (tax cut, evolution, war, ...).

[Mairead]

25. People here are doing the same thing, from the other side

They're in denial that anyone except BushCo should take any of the blame.

[ThoughtCriminal]

29. I've considered that

But there is a huge factor that is often ignored, or forgotten after fifteen new talking points have passed by. Whatever planning there was, probably did not take into account the fact that the Louisiana National Guard was stripped of personnel and equipment to serve in Iraq.

There was no way either the state or the city could compensate for this without pre-emptive assistance from the Federal Government. It impacted their ability to evacuate, their ability to get troops in place, the ability to maintain security and get relief supplies. FEMA knew this, but actually held up offers from other states to take up the slack.

At best I think one could argue that the city and state should have planned for Bush's staggering incompetence.

[freeplessinseattle]

34. "should have planned for *'s staggering incomptetence"

Yes, thank you, I will be using your quote!

[Mairead]

4. A lot of people here are equally arrogantly certain that it's all BushCo's

fault, and that no failing by the mayor or gov can be acknowledged. BushCo's failure pays for all!

It's a receipe for continued, marginalised adolescence.

[LARED]

5. Thank you for a needed reminder. (n/t)

[Walt Starr]

6. Blanco made the request under the Stafford act on August 28

Nagin was talking to the Feds all day on Tuesday.

Bush failed.

[Mairead]

12. Fine. But the point is that Bush's failure didn't exhaust some

central "failure reservoir". Other people, like the mayor and gov, also failed. That needs to be acknowledged and thought about.

Until we act like grown-ups and do own-ups, we'll go on being like Bush.

And if that idea doesn't give you a major case of the grues and cause you to swear off playing politics about what's going on, Walt, then turn yourself in because you're dead and nobody's told you yet.

[Walt Starr]

13. No, they didn't

They did everything they were supposed to do under the guidelines issued by the Department of Homeland Security.

The ONLY failure was the Feds. They failed to keep up their end of the bargain.

[Mairead]

18. Got some cites about that alleged bargain? (nt)

[fasttense]

26. The bottom line is this...

Everything brush did up until five days into the horror, was nothing. At least the governor and the mayor did something. At least the governor and the mayor acted like they cared. Brush acted unconcerned and uninvolved, which happened to correlate with his actions. Oh he talked about releasing some oil reserves, but that was only if his base, the haves and have mores, asked for it.

His lack of action coupled with his nonchalant attitude towards the tragedy make him a prime target. Brush should have known better. He is, after all, a politicians. He deserves what he gets.

[Mairead]

43. The real bottom line is that so long as "progressives" aren't willing

to see things clearly, they will go on being given lip service, bloviation, and no substance. This is not quantum electrodynamics.

This is what BushCo do, people. They're not grown-ups. They don't own up. You guys all know that and curse them for it...and you do the same thing. Oh but that's different, right?

[DoYouEverWonder]

28. Nagan begged for help

and Bush refused to return his phone calls.

Plus there a little document called the National Security Plan. Once BUSH issued the State of Emergency and went back to his VACATION he was derelict in fulfilling the duties of his office.

Nagan is going to be hero by the time this is done and the truth comes out.


The National Response Plan was never implement because Bush was too busy eating cake and playing guitar. The freepers need to go shove their new talking point where the sun don't shine.


From the Fact Sheet: National Response Plan


# The Plan ensures the seamless integration of the federal government when an incident exceeds local or state capabilities.

# Timely Federal Response to Catastrophic Incidents

# The Plan identifies catastrophic incidents as high-impact, low-probability incidents, including natural disasters and terrorist attacks that result in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the population, infrastructure, environment, economy, national morale, and/or government functions.

# The Plan provides the means to swiftly deliver federal support in response to catastrophic incidents.



http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interapp/press_release/press_release_0581.xml

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

10. Do you not feel that the primary responsibility for managing a MASSIVE

disaster affecting a major city rests with the federal government?

I'm not saying that the mayor or governor have zero responsibility either, but clearly the primary responsibility lies with the federal government.

[Walt Starr]

15. According to the DHS, the primary responsibility lies with them n/t

[Mairead]

17. Ackcherly, unless it was agreed by everyone concerned, then no, I don't

The primary responsibility always rests with the person in authority who's nearest the problem. That's the mayor, in this case. If the mayor doesn't have the resources, then next one up is the gov. And only after that the feds.

Of course, in almost all cases the needed resources aren't within a mayor's remit, and so the mayor has to involve the gov. But that doesn't let mayors off the responsibility hook.

[Walt Starr]

20. It became the DHS primary responsibility on August 28

Blanco complied with the law. DHS failed in their responsibility

[Mairead]

22. Cites, Walt -- show us some cites. Til then, you're just talking.

[mrfrapp]

37. FEMA

on edit: self delete. irrelevant.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

30. Let me get this straight. Are you saying the primary responsibility

for all the stranded, starving, dead and dying of dehydration people in NOLA rests with the mayor and governor? Just trying to get it straight, what you are saying...

[Mairead]

42. The primary responsibility for seeing to it that there wouldn't be any

stranded, starving, or dead residents of New Orleans rested with the mayor, yes.

It's the cop on the beat who has the responsibility to stop the robbery, not the chief of police or the precinct commander or the watch sergeant. The cop isn't relieved of responsibility by having called for backup. That cop has the obligation to act regardless.

This is not some novel principle that you guys have never heard of before, so enough with the attitude already, okay?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

45. I'm not trying to come at you with attitude, I just wanted to establish

that you were saying exactly this, that these deaths were much more Nagin and Blanco's fault than Bush's.

Not that they SHARE some of the blame, but you are saying they have the LION's share of the blame.

I totally disagree with you. A disaster of this magnitude far outstrips the capacity of ANY city to deal with it, especially when most of the infrastructure of that city is obliterated in the first day.

The governor I'm less clear on, will have to read more on her role and actions leading up to the hurricane. But I definitely feel the lion's share of responsibility for dealing with a HUGE cataclysm, with potential to wipe out a major city, lies with the federal government, which is headed by Bush. As far as I can see, that's one of the PRIMARY REASONS we even have a federal government, to deal with huge events like this. Not just to wage war in Iraq.

So I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree on this, but I'm not trying to come at you with "attitude" and I'm not the one calling people juvenile or adolescent or whatever.

Why do you suppose we have an organization like FEMA and Homeland Security? What are they supposed to provide, or do, aside from give political reward jobs to people like Brown and Chertoff?

[Mairead]

46. My apologies for the mistake of imputing attitude to you

And I'm sorry that I wasn't more clear, too. I don't believe it was 'more their fault' in the way I think you mean that. Let me see whether I can illuminate the difference.

Let's say I'm the mayor. There's a Really Nasty Hurricane coming, and everyone thinks that it could hit here. Well, I already know that the city is below sea level and that people are more vulnerable here than in most other big coastal cities, so there could be a lot of deaths and destruction.

So I convene an emergency meeting of department heads and say Fire Chief, you phone around to hospitals, nursing homes, and similar and get a triage report: how many can go out in busses on spec, how many need ambulances and shouldn't be moved unless things get grotty, and how many are too fragile to move unless the alternative is death and what do we need to provide for them to have their best chance.

And I say Police Chief, we're likely going to have to shift everyone out of the city, which means we are going to need a lot of cops for notification, traffic control, and peacefully maintaining order among a lot of scared, tense people. Also recording what major possessions they have so they can recover from insurance after. So how many will we need and do you want NG, staties, city cops from elsewhere or what?
And I say School Supe, we are not only going to have to shift all the kids and teachers elsewhere, but everybody else, too. So you take on the transportation problem. Talk to all the bus companies and tell them that we know they're good corp. citizens who will Do The Right Thing and donate every bus they have. Also sort out every school bus you can lay hands on, with drivers.

And I say City Engineer, phone the Corps of Engineers and get their best estimate of how stable the levees are and what's on hand to reinforce them. And can we caisson the pumping stations to keep them in operation.

I expect you to have the numbers when we meet again at 10 tonite. I'm off to call the gov and tell her we're going to need lots of cops, soldiers, busses, choppers, sandbags and what-all and I'll get back to her with numbers at midnite.

...

You can see where I'm going with this. He should have had a staged plan for getting people out, from those who could go on their own or in busses just on spec, to those who'd need to be shifted in ambulances, and finally having choppers or something standing by to do last-minute evac once it was clear it was going to happen. And he should have had 3x or 5x the number of cops and emergency services personnel with a command structure already worked out, ready to go into action. And if the gov dithered and didn't act, he had the responsibility to start calling the mayors of other cities and asking them to pitch in. The one thing he did not have the luxury of doing was waiting. But he seems to have waited anyway.

[Carni]

41. Damn! I had no idea the Mayor of NOLA controlled the US military!

Is that why Iraq has been such a fucked up mess, too?

Geez, I guess we better get rid of that Mayor because he can't seem to do anything right!

<sarcasm off>

Bush dropped the ball as usual...don't give me any of this other happy horseshit because I'm not buying it.

[mwb970]

21. Bush's failure here joins his many others.

Did the mayor or the governor start an unnecessary war in Iraq?

[DemonFighterLives]

24. dubya is the figurehead

although he is a damn poor one. The mayor and others can share some blame, but after they fall short, the pres. is supposed to jump into action and get someone on the job.

I really think FEMA will be blamed and another round of reform and restructuring will occur with the tax payers holding the bag.
:freak:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

8. The sad reality is, I see a lot of people (Dallas area) that have accepted

this talking point.

Heavy duty Bush supporters here who really will grasp any talking point Rush or Fox throws at them to reassure them that their guy isn't a total blithering compassion lacking idiot.

I'm sure there are many who realize something is seriously wrong despite all this, but sadly, the talking points DO serve their purpose. They keep a LOT if not most of the sheep in the fold.

[H2O Man]

9. There are three groups:

{a} those who always support Bush; {b} those who never will; and {c} the "undecided" group, who will tend to support a president unless their is strong evidence that he should not enjoy their support.

The right-wing who are confident that this won't hurt Bush are limiting their thinking to group "a". However, the extreme circumstances involved here have caused even some of that group to temporarily attack the administration's lack of response. The net result of the powerful images of the past week will cause significant damage to the president with group "c" *, which creates serious problems for the administration. It causes the republican prostitutes in congress to begin to separate from the administration before 2006.

**edited to correct error

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

11. You mean damages the pres. with group 'c' I think.

[H2O Man]

23. Thanks!

I appreciate your catching that, and bringing it to my attention.

[madrchsod]

14. you know i really want to believe this is the

fall of the empire but i just can`t shake the feeling that he will not take any heat over this disaster by the majority of the people in the united states. the media will spin him as a hero because he`s taking charge and doing photo ops with the "good coloureds" in new orleans.

[alcuno]

19. They are ignoring Mississippi

Many of the same complaints came from Mississippi - 5 days of no food and water.

[Walt Starr]

27. Barbour gave Bush cover there

but in the end, the incompetence will out.

Basically, The plan for those who could not be evacuated was to wait it out until the Feds came in. The Feds ave always directed that three days is what you plan for.

It took the Feds five to six days.

The Feds screwed up because ignorant incompetent morons who never managed an emergency in their lives were put in charge.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geekgrrl]

33. Blanco was all over the media- right away I saw her more than anyone!

[BeFree]

35. You are wrong

I saw Blanco time and again requesting help. Maybe you need to watch something other than FAUX?

You people blaming the victims need to come up with some facts. Yall have nothing but trash-mouthed the victims with no supporting evidence for your specious claims.

Bush was no victim, he wasn't even close to the scene. With a word, a single word he could hve done so much more, so quickly. One single word. Blanco was spilling her guts, while your budy b**h was laughing, golfing and playing.

Show us your facts or STFU.

[ThoughtCriminal]

36. Who's to blame for taking away 3000 NG and their equipment

to Iraq?

And she could not get replacements from other states until Washington OK'd it - that took days.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050903/ap_on_re_us/katrina_national_guard

"Several states ready and willing to send National Guard troops to the rescue in New Orleans didn't get the go-ahead until days after the storm struck — a delay nearly certain to be investigated by Congress.
New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson offered Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco help from his state's National Guard last Sunday, the day before Hurricane Katrina hit Louisiana. Blanco accepted, but paperwork needed to get the troops en route didn't come from Washington until late Thursday."

[deutsey]

32. I have to say, I wonder if any of this will stick to Bush too

Not for the reasons his blind band of zealots believe, though.

Not since Hitler or Stalin or Mao has there been a more perfect, blameless leader. :eyes:

Of course, neither Hitler, Stalin, nor Mao were perfect or blameless in what they wrought on their countries and on the world, but during their lifetimes, inside the propaganda bubble created by state media, and the fog of fear, greed, and ignorance fostered by the respective power structures, no shit ever clung to either of them.

We're seeing the same conditions here in corporatist America. Bush was not accountable for 9/11; Bush is not accountable for Iraq and the lies he told to get us into that disaster; Bush is not responsible for the poor economy (oops, wait a minute, experts reassure us that the economy is fine, just fine, just like experts hailed the successes of Stalin's five-year plans). And on and on.

Until we begin to throw real sand into the cogs of Rove's spin machine (which is feuled by a toxic combination of intimidation and selfish motivation), there will never be a blemish marring the smiling face of Big Dubya as he leads us into the bright, shining lie of the neo-con utopia.

[Pobeka]

38. Republicans argue over subtle legal details while americans are dying!

Instead of doing something to save live.

This is the take-home message if they want to push that point.

[pepperlove]

39. I want so much....

for you to be right... this being the end of * .... but, I think we ALL know he will be bailed out by his cohorts in crime... they will spin, hide, cover, whatever it takes... and he will smell like a rose time it is over; but YES, I will keep hammering away and we ALL should....

[Lefty48197]

40. I suppose this isn't the Republicans' fault either:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4200/is_20050606/ai_n14657367

"In fiscal year 2006, the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is bracing for a record $71.2 million reduction in federal funding..."

"There is an economic ripple effect, too. The cuts mean major hurricane and flood protection projects will not be awarded to local engineering firms. Also, a study to determine ways to protect the region from a Category 5 hurricane has been shelved for now."

"I think it's extremely shortsighted, Landrieu said. When the Corps of Engineers' budget is cut, Louisiana bleeds. These projects are literally life-and-death projects to the people of south Louisiana and they are (of) vital economic interest to the entire nation.
One of the hardest-hit areas of the New Orleans district's budget is the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, which was created after the May 1995 flood to improve drainage in Jefferson, Orleans and St. Tammany parishes. SELA's budget is being drained from $36.5 million awarded in 2005 to $10.4 million suggested for 2006 by the House of Representatives and the president."

"The district has identified $35 million in projects to build and improve levees, floodwalls and pumping stations in St. Bernard, Orleans, Jefferson and St. Charles parishes. Those projects are included in a Corps line item called Lake Pontchartrain, where funding is scheduled to be cut from $5.7 million this year to $2.9 million in 2006..."

[magnolia]

44. Let them be soothed by their ignorance for the time being...

...reality will smack them in the face soon enough.

I just watched "THIS WEEK". Even Cokie and George Will (who think Bush is not to blame) think he will not only feel the heat but get burned. Will said that this will be Bush's Iran Contra.

Let the freeps get their last zzzzzzzzzz's in.