So were the New York victims of Sept. 11 called refugees?

[seemslikeadream]

Just asking

:shrug:

[ananda]

1. American evacuee survivors..

.. that's what I call them because that's what they are.

Sue

[jus_the_facts]

2. there weren't MILLIONS of HOMELESS created that day......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=155&topic_id=2340&mesg_id=2340

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x3954289

[seemslikeadream]

4. I didn't know that

just how many people does it take before they're offically called refugees

[jus_the_facts]

23. the metropolitan population of New Orleans ALONE was roughly 2 MILLION....

....NOW DO THE MATH ON THE ENTIRE COASTLINE OF THE SOUTHERN UNITED STATES...dozens of city's with populations of 50 THOUSAND HAVE BEEN OBLIDERATED OFF THE FACE OF THE PLANET....MILLIONS OF HOMELESS BEING HERDED INTO THE REST OF THE SURROUNDING STATES...MARTIAL LAW IN SOUTH LOUISIANA IN WHAT WAS ONCE NEW ORLEANS...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=155&topic_id=2340&mesg_id=2340

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x3954289

[seemslikeadream]

32. Do you have any idea how many people became homeless

after Sept. 11?

[intheflow]

46. At least one person made homeless in NYC considered himself a refugee.

Here's a CNN article from 9/24/01. It says "thousands" were made homeless, but also says that the Red Cross had ten shelters in NYC that were handling most of the people, and that most of those displaced were "waiting for their buildings to be declared open by the New York authorities." So they're homes weren't destroyed, and they stayed locally while authorities investigated the scene.

One survivor is quoted in the article as saying, "...psychologically, I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop. I feel like a refugee or something." (Emphasis added.)

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/CAREER/trends/09/23/vic.new.homeless/

[intheflow]

3. No comparison.

So few people became homeless in NYC as compared to NOLA that shelters and social services within 10-20 miles could easily accomodate them and find them new housing.

edited for spelling.

[seemslikeadream]

6. so very few huh?

[MaineDem]

8. Yes. Few people lost their homes on 9/11.

Nothing like on this scale at all.

[seemslikeadream]

10. I'm just asking the question if there had been more survivors

would they have been called refugees, can you imagine that?

[MaineDem]

11. Hypothetical but I don't see why they wouldn't have been called refugees

I do like evacuees as a term better. How about "displaced persons"?

[intheflow]

22. It's the difference between a local fire and a geographic catastrophy.

The Trade Towers were in the financial district, and there is not a lot of housing, and certainly not a lot of low income housing, in that area.

I don't remember hearing about mass homelessness in NYC after 9-11. If you can show me documentation saying that 100's of thousands, if not a million+ people were made homeless by 9-11, I might concede your point. But since I work with social services, and don't remember hearing about mass homelessness in NYC or DC or Pennsylvania after 9-11, I will continue to think you're missing the point.

[Imagevision]

25. The "People of New Orleans", that's the way it started out

9-11 victims? - they're americans first and foremost!

[intheflow]

33. Yes, they're Americans.

Yes, they're the "People of New Orleans." If they can be both of those things, why not "Refugee" as well?

[Nite Owl]

5. The two really can't be

compared. The hospitals in NY were waiting for patients, they were expecting to be overwhelmed. They weren't because most died.

[seemslikeadream]

9. But if there would have been more survivors

Would they have been called refugees?

[ultraist]

13. Would wealthy stockbrokers, NYC fireman, police be referred to as refugees

under any circumstances? I highly doubt it.

They were referred to as American heros.

[seemslikeadream]

15. As should the BLACK VICTIMS of this disaster

American heros

[ultraist]

17. Hear, hear!

Salute to our brave AMERICAN HEROS who endured perhaps the WORST natural disaster in the history of our country. God bless them all.

[muriel_volestrangler]

20. Perhaps, if they couldn't return home

But my understanding was that relatively few people lived in the area that the WTC made uninhabitable. Being able to be accommodated elsewhere in their home city would also make the term less likely to be applied.

[Yupster]

30. I guess I don't get it

To me a refugee is a person who must be on the move because his home has been destroyed, occupied by an invader, etc.

The New York disaster happened in a business district. Few homes were destroyed.

The survivors were abble to take the subway back to their homes in Brooklyn or the ferry to their homes in Staten Island.

I don't think they'd be called refugees regardless of the numbers.

[napi21]

7. I don't think so because most of them died.

Yesterday, on one of the Dem radio talk shows, someone asked that same question, and complained that refugees are people from foreign lands that came here for protection. The host said, if you look up the definition of refugee, it's a person who has had to seek refuge in another area because his "home" is not livable for any reason. That "home" can mean his house, apt, county, city, state, or country.

Sorry I don't recall which host it was, because I'm almost always streaming a Dem talk radio station.

[HereSince1628]

12. I'll respectfully not use the term refugee because NOLA residents object

But I have to say that I was unaware that this word would be seen as derogatory.

[ultraist]

18. They put the word "refugee" out there to further dehumanize

the residents of NOLA. Putting a barrier between "them" and us makes it easier to accept that they left "them" to die.

Rovian spin at work.

[MaineDem]

21. I hate this administration but I can't pin this on them

I'd look first to the media.

I don't think anyone intentionally used the term to be pejorative. Now that we know people object to it we should not use it.

[ultraist]

31. FAUX likely used the term first---upon Rove's instructions n/t

[intheflow]

29. "Refugee" dehumanizes NOLA residents?

Are you nuts? "Refugee" tends to inspire more compassion than "displaced persons" to my mind. A refugee is someone who has been forced from their home and have lost everything but thier life. A displaced person sounds like someone temporarily inconvenienced. imo.

[earthside]

38. Oh, Cut It Out.

Refugees are human beings seeking refuge from an event that causes them to lose the safety of their homes. In this case, a natural disaster and a negligent and incompetent delivery of emergency services.

There is nothing dehumanizing about the word. This is not 'Rovian spin' -- it is the ugly head of 'politcal correctness' infiltrating its way back into the progressive movement. When we do that to ourselves, the rightwingers have already gained a step on us.

That refugees exist in Bush's America is quite an indictment of this regime, it seems to me.

[intheflow]

43. Agreed.

The fact that the poster thinks "refugee" is a dehumanizing term suggests more about the poster's own biases than about any supposed "Rovian spin" on this.

[seemslikeadream]

44. That is completely untrue I call on you to show me what you have done

posted or anything else for the plight of poor black people in this country or anywhere else.

I'll wait for your response then I will give you my resume

[intheflow]

48. I am driving a camper trailer to Houston to donate to a refugee family.

I'm working to have not only the title transferred, but also the insurance which has been paid in in full through June 2006.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=180x19449

I am going to volunteer to work at the Astrodome or anywhere else they need counseling support for refugees:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=180x19344

I helped a DUer connect with a friend in Amarillo to set up a clothing drive and possible mass housing in that city. (Can't find the link because the search option is turned off.)

I have a master of divinity with a concentration in peace and social justice. My whole life's work has been in support of promoting economic, racial and gender equality. Please don't judge me when you don't know me.

[seemslikeadream]

45. IT IS THE BLACK CAUCUS THAT IS SAYING THIS!

AND THE FORMER MAYOR OF NEW ORLEANS


The fact that the poster thinks "refugee" is a dehumanizing term suggests more about the poster's own biases than about any supposed "Rovian spin" on this.

YOU ARE SAYING THIS ABOUT THE BLACK CAUCUS AND THE FORMER MAYOR OF NEW ORLEANS

[seemslikeadream]

47. You should look at your own biases before accusing others

[intheflow]

49. Back atcha, seemslikeadream.

What do yo say you and I call a truce on this issue? I know your posts from DU, I know you are a good soul, working and fighting for the people just like I am. But you accused me in a post above without knowing me. So what do you say we both just knock it off, stop arguing semantics, and start working together to fight racism and economic inequality?

[seemslikeadream]

51. I posted my last remark as you were posting this

yes a truce is fine

[intheflow]

52. Great!

Arguing and pointing fingers at "the other" is a dirty Republican job. LOL :pals:

[seemslikeadream]

54. Thanks and I just wanted you to know my family also sent 300 generators

and pumps to Mississippi last Tuesday. My son drove north to Michigan and then south to 200 miles from the coast with them. They were gone in 2 hrs. This is what his friends did for him because of that. This name there is *RCT*Carnage

http://www.lococlan.com/

I care a great deal I really do, it's just not about words but some words do not help

:hug:

[seemslikeadream]

50. These thread were just in my bookmark

I have hundreds of LBN posts about the overthrow of Aristide that I could look up later.


Poll: Congo War Is World's Top 'Forgotten' Crisis seemslikeadream Sun Mar-13-05 11:17 AM
812815 Pinochet Avoids Comment on Disappearances seemslikeadream Mon Sep-13-04 03:56 PM
1041164 Chavez calls for the creation of a world defense network
807064 Sudan: U.S. to smash us like Iraq seemslikeadream Tue Sep-07-04 09:39 PM
805328 Mark Thatcher faces court over 'coup plot' seemslikeadream
714592 Haiti Protesters Seek Aristide's Return cal04 Thu Jul-29-04 05:25 PM
442682 Congo Signs $332 Million Mineral Deal seemslikeadream Thu Mar-25-04 07:22 PM
534005 Rep. Maxine Waters Calls on Congress Not To Recognize New Haitian Governme seemslikeadream Fri May-07-04 12:00 PM
567404 Venezuela's Economy Up by 30% in First Quarter of 2004 bemildred Thu May-20-04 12:01 AM
449560 Congolese Government Forces Fight Attackers in Capital; liberalnproud Sun Mar-28-04 04:51 PM
566995 Expelled Congo Diamond Miners Tell of Terror seemslikeadream Wed May-19-04 06:42 PM

529670 Hired Guns with War Crimes Past seemslikeadream Tue May-04-
465773 Conclusive Evidence of U.S. Role in Kidnapping and Coup seemslikeadream Mon Apr-05-04 11:19 PM
445987 The truth behind the cannibals of Congo (Independent) bobthedrummer Sat Mar-27-04 02:36 PM
441163 Convicts Rule Haiti Town, Executions Plague Another Tinoire Thu Mar-25-04 05:15 AM
433501 Threats to Aristide supporters seemslikeadream Sun Mar-21-04 01:51 AM
395091 Haitians hail rebel troops Loonman Fri Mar-05-04 03:50 PM
Editorials and Other Articles forum
52592 What have we done? seemslikeadream Mon May-24-04 10:00 AM
3418631 My 1.000th Post:Come Look Inside-Images of Iraq, Words of MLK chlamor Tue Apr-19-05 09:36 PM
1671438 While I sit here trying to think of things to say
1638310 The Invasion of Haiti Anthony Fenton interviews Stan Goff seemslikeadream Fri May-21-04 11:37 AM
1307941 Who's who of the Haiti Coup - death squad veterans and convicted murderers seemslikeadream Mon Mar-29-04 01:39 PM
1257891 Haiti: Drugs, Thugs, the CIA, and the Deterrence of Democracy

[Judi Lynn]

40. You've got it! Very well expressed. I feel grateful.

It's a distinction a lot of people don't grasp, so its planned effects are successful.

Perception manipulation, in a very sinister form.

[seemslikeadream]

42. Perception manipulation, in a very sinister form.

Thanks Judi Lynn

That's exactly it


By the way 2,500 refugees are on there way to Massachusetts

Fox News 1:00pm

[seemslikeadream]

14. Former NO Mayor Marc Morial and the Black Caucus oppose the term refugee

The former mayor of New Orleans feels the same way

Meet The Press Sunday Marc Morial

President and CEO of National Urban League

"They are not refugees, these are not refugees lets not refer to them as refugees"

[Spike from MN]

35. They're right. Of course, if I was in NO I think I'd prefer to

be referred to as a refugee because it might make it easier for me to be granted citizenship in Canada or somewhere else. But I'm white so I'd probably be called a hero instead. Only blacks are refugees.

[Gormy Cuss]

36. They are refugees but I respect the leaders who view this word as negative

I won't refer to those displaced by Katrina as such in deference to the community leaders who find it objectionable, but they are refugees by definition and have the same desperate state as international refugees. The only difference is they are American refugees who have been displaced within America. They will need many of the same resources we offer to international refugees, like emergency shelter, employment counseling and food aid. In fact, I would like to see the public and private agencies skilled at refugee resettlement get involved here because they are uniquely qualified to help groups of people start over from nothing. This is a monumental task and our Federal government resources have already proven to be inept in crisis.

On edit: if 9/11 had forced the abandonment of Manhattan for many months or years, those people would be refugees too. What happened on 9/11 was largely focused on immediate death and loss of livelihood, with a small number of residential displacements for a relatively short period of time (weeks, rather than months and years.) It just isn't the same sort of calamity. If the displacement had been on the same scale, I don't know whether we would have landed on 'refugee' as the term, so it is a good question.

[Judi Lynn]

41. Glad to learn he said it. This is THEIR (flood victems) homeland.

People who try to obliquely undermine their legitimacy are evil.

[whistle]

16. I believe that for those 28,000 plus New Orleans residents who were .....

...instructed to take refuge in the Super-dome and N.O. Convention Center then locked in and prevented from leaving by authorities who KNEW that these facilities had no food, no fresh water, no dry blankets, no medicines and who also KNEW that these supplies would not be available for days....these people (victims), mostly Black-American citizens, but disadvantaged, poor, disabled, ill, elderly were actually abandoned by their government are in fact "displaced persons" and so are technically refugees!!!!

Let's not white-wash the facts of what has happened here. Now these people have been disbursed around the country, separated from their families and are being allowed to die and are being shot my U.S. military troops, specifically ordered to take these measures, without any accountability for their actions, and even the press is not being allowed to follow-up on what is happening to these people and where they are being taken. This is the prelude to Bush's Amerikan version of ethnic cleansing and so these people are in fact refugees!!!!

Who are the next group of refugees to be isolated and removed from their homes and families!!!!

[seemslikeadream]

19. Yes who will be the next to be isolated and removed from their homes

and families?

Who will be the next to be called a refugee?

[Ravenseye]

27. 10 bucks says...

...that they're not rich white people.

Not that rich white people couldn't be refugees, but it's just so much easier for the NeoCon policies to make the poor suffer. Who suffers first? The poor, elderly, and young.

So if you're young and poor, which is no fault of your own....look out....you're fucked.

[Ravenseye]

24. They are refugees

The straight definition of a refugee is a person seeking refuge. People can slap on additional labels all they like, but labeling someone a refugee doesn't mean they're not american, and doesn't look down on them. It merely labels them as people who are seeking refuge. Which they are.

9/11 doesn't apply. The attacks hit the Pentagon, a business district, and an empty field. Very few people were forced out of their homes. Had 9/11 been a chemical/biological/nuclear attack and all of the New York City area had been evacuated, then yes...all those wealthy stockbrockers driving off to the west in their Hummers would have been refugees as well.

As far as the posts labelling them as American Heroes...God that kind of crap just doesn't wash with me. They're people who need help, and everyone needs to open their homes, their pocketbooks, as well as their hearts to these people, but labeling them all American Heroes is sort of a meaningless piece of contrivance and dilutes the sacrifices people like the firefighters who died trying to save people on 9/11 made. Everyone doesn't have to be special. These people are victims. That's terrible, but it's not a 'bad' thing. Our society apparently has trouble accepting victimhood, and then labels them as heroes. They're not heroes. They're victims. Refugees.

To call them something ala Displaced Heroes, is just semantic garbage.

Sorry. I'm just so sick of all that's occured this past week, that I feel that any kind of semantical shielding of the true savagery that Bushco's policies have brought down upon the poeple of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast protects their lies even more.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

26. Not once! And countless were left homeless as their homes were too

polluted to return to.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

28. good god...just drop it

you said the other day this was someone else's opinion...that the NO storm victims were not refugees...well, now it is clear that refugee doesn't fit this scenario...try a dictionary

sP

[seemslikeadream]

34. The former Mayor of New Orleans was on Meet the Press this morning

objecting to the term, he is not dropping it.

[RC]

37. Most of the victims in New Orleans are Black, so

they are automatically refugees.
If those people were mostly middle class and white, they would not be call refugees.
Refugees congers up a picture of non-white, non-central European poor people. Calling them refugees is just a step in dehumanizing them. To excuse the mistreatment of a group of people because they have too much color and not enough money.
Not being republican doesn't help them either.

[orpupilofnature57]

39. MSM, has been running for cover, behind those, hyper-critical,5yr too

late questions, but old behavior dies hard.

[ticapnews]

53. I recall seeing the images of people walking out of the city...

and the commentators (CNN or MSNBC) saying that the people of Manhattan are now refugees like so many others around the world. They made a point of saying that we had seen this before in other countries, but not so much our own. Of course, there weren't TV cameras broadcasting 24/7 coverage of the Trail of Tears or the Dust Bowl refugees either.

I don't see the term as a negative one. They are people seeking refuge. Maybe I am naive but I don't view it as a derogatory term.