How to deal with RAGE at relatives / friends / colleagues???

[StellaBlue]

I posted this in another thread, about why people like *, but I think it would be useful to hear others' perspectives on how to deal with rabid, blinkers-on relatives and people who are * apologists?

They love to bait me and then turn it around so that it looks like I am ingrateful and 'brainwashed' (because I went to a 'liberal' state university and spent the last 4 years in Europe).

The thing is, I can handle it when we have divergent views on, say, taxes or education or whatever. But these are LIFE and DEATH matters now. And we are letting the small sliver of democracy we've managed to hang onto since the Constitution was written by the oligarchs slip away over the past 5 years. These are not things to be taken lightly, and I am afraid I now fall into the 'liberty or death' category. I WILL NOT support the Iraq war. I WILL NOT listen quietly to neocon/religious right propaganda. I WILL NOT BE SILENT. PEOPLE ARE DYING. And they laugh.

Here is the post that got me thinking about this:

>>>>>>>>>

But, yes... I have been thinking about this passage a lot, too. Ever since I brought it to the attention of a holier-than-thou, nonchurchgoing, religiously judgemental, SUV-driving, unemployed relative, who jumped on my back when I was talking about violence in Christian evangelizing.

The conversation started when I was actually sort of DEFENDING Christianity, as opposed to Islam, saying that, despite the horrible things many Christian missionaries have done throughout history, it seems to be that conversion through violence has a stronger history in Islam. I don't *think* it says in the NT that Christians should convert by the sword. But I *think* the Koran does say things to that effect. Is that right? I took a university-level class about Islam and I got the impression that it has a stronger undercurrent of violent conversion... Anyway........

She immediately said, 'WHO? What have Christian missionaries done? Give me an example?'

SO... I told her about Native Americans being forced into convent schools and Protestant, basically, re-education camps; and the evils of the Belgian Congo; and the attempted eradication of 'barbarian' indigenous customs in the Indian subcontinent by the British empire; and the forced conversions and genocide of the Spanish in Mexico.

And her response, 'Oh - so that's just your opinion then.' And she conveniently forgot all about the litany of horrors I had just described to her.

So then I reminded her that there are, in fact, many passages in the Bible that could easily be construed as violent, especially in the Old Testament. But even Jesus said 'anyone who will follow me must hate their mother and father'. And I explained to her that, in most understandings of that verse, Christians took it to mean not that Jesus wants Christians to hate, but that if it comes down to it, you will choose your Christian religion above your family; that if your family turns against you because of it, so be it.

Again, she was like, 'Okay, that's your opinion. But I want to know where it says that in the Bible.' I told her that, despite having read the Bible cover to cover more than once, I could not recall the exact wording nor chapter and verse, but I would look it up!

WHAT IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE?

This person is a rabid * apologist, the worst stereotype of one you can imagine. Likes to tell me about how I will 'see the light' one day and snap out of my atheistic 'phase' (I am in my late 20s and going on 11 or 12 years of said phase). Meanwhile she doesn't read the Bible, go to church (NEVER), practice any human virtues, or bother to think for herself. The perfect * voter.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sorry this is so long.

But what do we DO?! My family is all I have right now. But they cannot be reasoned with. They think *I* am the brainwashed one - me, who has lived in a foriegn country (and a friendly one at that!) for four years, me who has multiple degrees (not that they make me smarter than anyone else, I have just been fortunate enough to get exposure to a wide variety of books and ideas), me who reads voraciously, me who has voted in every single election I have been eligible to vote in , me who has been to 12 foreign countries. *I* am the brainwashed, closed-minded one.

As far as I am concerned, being against murder is NON-NEGOTIABLE. And our government is made up of MURDERERS.

:grr:

[ThoughtCriminal]

1. Let them worry about the rage

If they can't feel the shame, that's their problem.

[StellaBlue]

3. Shrug

Yeah... I picked up a great response to their rage in another thread... I am going to make it my stanard response:

'Why do you hate my freedom?'

And if they tell me to go back to Europe, 'Why don't you move to another country if you hate America so much?' , I'll say, 'Because I don't want to be subject to America's foreign policy!'

[Zenlitened]

6. Tell them that YOU are the patriot here. YOU are the defender...

... of America's ideals.

They have more in common with the mullahs of Iran or Pakistan than the courageous, enlightened founders of our country.

Liberals are patriots. The right-wing is a threat to everything America stands for.

[ThoughtCriminal]

19. I want THEM to be afraid to talk about politics around ME

I'm really sick of hearing their anti-liberal rants and being polite. I want them to worry about upsetting me for a change.

[madeline_con]

30. Be like me. Have the facts and start spouting them.

Hubby now begs me not to "start" when we go to relatives' houses, because he knows I never let up. ;)

[StellaBlue]

33. Oh, I DO

But they think since my facts are from the liberal media and the liberal university professors, they are just propaganda.

This is sort of similar to a problem I had with them when justifying my choice to vote for and actively support Nader in 200o (I am in Texas, no flames please). They kept spouting the usual BS about 'environmental wackos', 'hippies', etc. But my main question was this: WHAT IS RALPH NADER'S ULTERIOR MOTIVE? Compared to *co's ulterior motive? Why would anyone have an evil, hidden motive for wanting consumer protection, healthcare, and environmental regulations???

[FreedomAngel82]

40. Hehe, good for you

I'm tired of being quiet too. I'm not much of a public speaker but no more. I just let my anger and my brain take over from my nervousness.

[FreedomAngel82]

39. I have the perfect response to that

It's in First Corinthians chapter ten verse twenty-nine. It's actually talking about food and what all you can eat, but I think it goes with anything in life really. <For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience?>

[NVMojo]

2. the majority of the people I know in my county are Repukes ...

It's going to be hard not to rip lips off when they get sassy and arrogant and condemning ...

[Zenlitened]

4. Some people are just too sick and damaged ever to reach.

That's a simple, sad fact.

All you can do is look at them and shake your head, and be grafteful you're not filled with the same sick poison that so putrifies them.

Tell them so, if you wish, but just resolve yourself to the fact that there are creatures walking around amongst us who have not a shred of humanity left to them. By their own choosing.

[Matariki]

5. i would say don't engage them

i think we all hope and believe that we can reason with these people and that they have some amount of empathy when in fact they have neither reason nor empathy.

i'd suggest calmly saying 'you're misinformed' and turn your back on them. if it's your family or coworkers, forbid them to talk politics with you and don't be tempted to engage them in politics.

and finally, teach by example. be an activist.

[Snotcicles]

7. Tell them that ten years from now when all this comes back to haunt them

that you will remember (then repeat there position back to them) that they helped this happen. And they are to blame because you tried to warn them. And you won't hesitate to remind them.

[Ladyhawk]

8. I am in the same boat. I was just lying in bed, thinking,

"How am I going to deal with my family on THIS one????" This is about life and death. I already disowned them once back after the November election travesty and I can't afford to disown them again. I am in terrible shape physically and financially.

Maybe if I just warn them I'm in no mood to argue about this one, they'll let it go??? :shrug: Problem is, I am having trouble keeping my mouth shut because I'm infuriated with ShrubCo.

LH

[StellaBlue]

9. It makes me so sad

But more angry.

They should be PROUD that I am able to think for myself and that I have such empathy for my fellow human beings.

It's just righteous indignation. I bring up that if it wasn't for the suffragettes protesting, I wouldn't be allowed to vote. I wouldn't be allowed to have a credit card in my own name. I would probably have 15 children by now. But they can't make the connection.

I think, really, that they are brainwashed by the 'patriotic' propaganda and also that they are complacent, keep-your-head-down people, essentially. They think that I will just end up broke and unhappy unless I tow the line. But I think we all know (Enron) that many, many of us will be broke, anyway. Might as well go down fighting.

I don't want to get to the end of my life (whether that's tomorrow or 2050), thinking that I was like *.

Every moment you have a decision before you. There is a right and wrong response to everything. Or, in the Buddhist sense, a 'skillful' and 'unskillful' response. I try to keep that in mind. I don't want to indirectly be responsible for the deaths of any of my fellow human beings. And by not doing everything in our power to stop the insanity of this regime, we all have blood on our hands. Why are Iraqi lives worth less than American ones?

Why are New Orleanians' lives worth less than Jenna and Barbara's? Less than Terri Schiavo's?

But. It's. So. Hard.

[FreedomAngel82]

41. Oh yes

I agree. Everytime I think about shutting up I just think of all those women who worked so hard and fought the government so much to have the rights that I have now and I won't let them take that away from me or future women. I can't live with myself if I do nothing.

[StellaBlue]

49. Me, too.

Even if not a single person ever knows it, or ever knows my name, and I die childless and alone and forgotten, I want to die knowing that, somehow, I was to someone what Mary Wollstonecraft was to me.

[Snotcicles]

10. Excuse my french in advance but it's a fucking shame that you people have

to watch everything you say. What kind of creeps are making you feel like this? Did you fuck with them as much when Clinton was leading this country in our Golden years of happiness and prosperity?

[VOX]

11. They're sensing that you're far more informed and intelligent than they...

are, and it makes them uncomfortable, so they're immediately distancing themselves your ideas/opinions to avoid being trumped. It's a lot easier for them to just say, "Oh, she's been brainwashed by all that high-falutin' education, etc." That way, they don't even have to think about what you have to say. The sad truth is they're not even really listening, since they dismiss you as the "defective" one of the bunch. Just a guess -- are you the youngest in your family, or nearly the youngest?

It's frustrating as hell, I know -- I grew up as the youngest in a Republican family and was always considered the black sheep. :crazy:

Stick to your guns, but don't let them bait you. You're trying to reason with them, and probably have an expectation of receiving fair play in return, which you're not going to get. The game is rigged that way. :(

Stand tall for yourself and your ideals, cite the facts, and know that you're following the best path for the greater good of all. :hug:

[StellaBlue]

13. Yes and no

Smallish close family, I am an only child; very large extended family... I am one of the younger grandchildren, but now all my cousins have kids, so.... I am the old spinster. hahahahaha (patting myself on the back).

The thing that upsets me the most is that I KNOW, *most* of them are really good people. And it hurts a lot that my father is 'disappointed' in me and thinks he's failed in raising me. He talks about how he should've taken me to church more, etc.

:crazy:

[madeline_con]

31. Ask Dad if he's proud he raised you to think for yourself...

and be independent. Then thank him for doing so.

That's a parent's job. I do that to Mom, and she stops screeching for a while...

[StellaBlue]

34. "But you're not thinking for yourself"

"You're just spouting brainwashing propaganda that you got from that liberal university you went to. You just want an excuse to protest. You're just a communist."

BLAH BLAH BLAH

[FreedomAngel82]

42. Same here

But I'm lucky though now cause I at least have my mom, grandmother and my brother who don't like Bush. When I'm around other family members we don't talk about politics much. We all have the same religion so that pretty much is a good thing I think. Only thing is we're in different denominations. Heh. But I think with these people you have to take an example out of Jesus' book. Try to talk to them in terms they would understand. That's what Jesus did in his parables. He used examples they would clearly understand. Maybe that's what we have to do.

[GreenPartyVoter]

12. Wanna get their panties in a bunch.. tell them you found a website about

REAL Christianity.

------------------------------------------------------
Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/liberalchristians.htm

[StellaBlue]

15. Thank God

They are not REAL Christians. In the sense that they actually go to church and pray all the time and stuff.

No offense to liberal Christians.

[GreenPartyVoter]

18. :^)

[FreedomAngel82]

44. No offense

I usually don't judge people since that is only God's place. What's strange with me I think is in religion I'm along side many conservatives but with the law is where I am liberal. I'm for gay marriage. I'm for Roe V Wade. I think the thing that all these people have forgotten is that religion is supposed to be your personal relationship with God. I do believe in going out and spreading the gospel to people who want to hear it, but the thing to remember is God gave us freewill. The freewill to choose Him or not. All these Christians on the right are going about everything the wrong way. They think if they don't have this law (gay marriage) or that law (Roe V Wade) then people will "see the light" or whatever. But it's so wrong, because if people don't believe in God they'll still be doing the same things. Not having gay marriage isn't going to make people stop being gay and not having Roe V Wade won't make people stop having abortions. :eyes:

[StellaBlue]

50. Good point.

Very lucid, I hadn't thought it about it from just that angle and that clearly.

But I agree.

I classify myself as an atheist, but I also think the universe is far, far more complex thatn any of us will ever be able to understand. The important things to me are wonder and hope. I think hope is greater than faith and love, so I disagree with Paul on that one. :) Because you can, temporarily, live without faith or love; but not without hope. With hope, you can find love and faith.

ANYWAY... I think religion and personal philosophy and spirituality are, and should be, personal. Considering how enormous time and space are, I cannot make sense of trying to force my own brain into someone else's to the point of making legislation of my own, subjective beliefs. Which is of course what the fundies want to do. I don't believe all the stuff in that 5,000-year-old book, so it's not relevant to me legally. However, I do respect a lot of the nuggets of truth that are in there, and that Christianity shares with other faiths.

When I hear REAL Christians, like you seem to be, I, too, am inspired. As I am by many of the words of Jesus. And Buddha. Etc. SO we all share something important there.

I just think the universe and the life in it (god?) is more important than our tiny, subjective ability to comprehend. And the RWers concept of 'God' seems VERY limited, IMHO. That's why I call myself an atheist, I suppose.

[mwb970]

14. I hope I don't encounter a Bush supporter in the next few days.

How anyone with a brain and a soul can say anything good about this vile, evil, worthless piece of crap is beyond my ability to process or believe. I guess there just is NOTHING he could do that would sway them.

Fortunately, I don't know a single person who approves of anything Bush has done. But I know they're out there. I hope I don't run into one. They DON'T want to hear what I'm thinking.

[StellaBlue]

16. Remember that Jesusland/Canada map that was going around after Nov?

I think we should all get together and secede. We can take all those blue states. Poor Illinois will just have to fend for itself, but the west and east coasts can secede and leave 'em to it.

This coming from a rabid Texan, no less.

But, more important than anything is that I am a human being and a citizen of the world. Rethugs don't get that.

I think all Americans should be forced to spend at least a year in a foreign country. Even Canada would pry their eyes wide open. Much less if they went to, say, France. Or the 'Third World'.

[Carni]

17. Cut them out of your life

Sad to say it but for me that is the only thing that has worked over the last five years.

[StellaBlue]

20. Not possible

This is my immediate family.

I have just returned to the USA with no job, no place to live, no car, and about $700 cash, due to circumstances beyond my control.

The people I considered my family abroad are no longer my family (end of relationship). The friends I had around me are not here. I didn't want to move back to the belly of the beast. I love my family. They just cannot be reasoned with.

And... now that I am here I intend to use this as an opportunity to live my life with integrity and do what I can as an American to speak up for American and the best of American values.

[Ladyhawk]

23. I tried and failed to cut them out.

After my surgery I couldn't function at all and didn't have enough help. I had to rely on family again. I still have to rely on them. :(

Plus, there's that whole love thing. I love and hate my family, both. That swirls around in a person and creates all kinds of problems. It hurts worse than anything to love someone who makes you crazy with fury.

[Joanne98]

25. Get a job! THEN cut them loose!

[StellaBlue]

27. working on that : )

[tx_dem41]

32. If you "love your family" as you said above....then don't cut them...

loose. Focus on why you love them. By all means don't take DRASTIC advice (i.e. "cut them loose") from an internet forum.

[StellaBlue]

35. I won't

Haha.

Don't worry.

I can show them what makes me different from *co through example. And, remember - no one's perfect.

I can't count all the things I've done wrong. Good thing I'm not Catholic anymore... I would have to book in for a marathon 48-hour session to do it proper confession.

[FreedomAngel82]

45. I agree

Use the reasons that you love them to show them. Think of what Jesus did in his lessons and parables. He used examples in people's personal lives and things people could understand. I think that's what we have to start doing. Show them what Bush is doing to people without saying his name. Just give an example and ask them what they would do. I betcha a lot of people we're all talking of are future democrats. They just believe the myths and propoganda that's out there from people.

[SlowDownFast]

56. Cut them out. I agree.

Like a bad tumor.

If you've tried and tried and not made a dent, it's the only thing you have left. Even the Christ prophesied about this breaking up of families. Look it up.

I'm still in the process of cutting these people out. They are what Jerry Garcia/Robert Hunter described as "Foolish Hearts".

That's coming from hippies.

"A foolish heart will call on you to cast your dreams away. Then turn around and blame you for the way you went astray. A foolish heart will cause you grief and often make you hurt. A selfish heart is trouble, but a foolish heart is worse..."

It's the saddest thing. But also the truest.

[bring_em_home_bush]

21. I'm waiting for them all to die in the bird flu pandemic

although I guess it will probably take me down with the stupid motherfuckers.

[Joanne98]

22. Defending Bush now is UNFORGIVABLE! Cut them loose!

[StellaBlue]

26. WWJD?

I am an atheist, but I thought what distinguised 'us' from 'them' was that we are not fascist, war mongering, hate-filled ideologues.

Nothing is unforgivable. They know not what they do.

Problem is, they don't WANT to know. That's what drives me nuts.

They don't want to know, and * didn't ever visit a foreign country until he was president, even though his father was a millionaire and head of the CIA, ambassador to China, VP, and P. WTF?

[Ladyhawk]

46. Because I already cut them off once, my family certainly isn't

going to look to me as an example. :) However, I cut them off for my own sanity, not as a way to punish them. I still don't think I did anything wrong. In fact, I might have to resort to it again.

Saying "goodbye" to someone who is toxic to you is a personal decision. My mother still thinks I did it to hurt her. She won't stop believing that anymore than she'll stop believing * is the the next best thing to the second coming. I have no control over what she believes...and isn't that the crux of the whole issue?

All we can do is work on our own shit. If someone else says, "Hey, my shit don't stink," nothing we can say or do will get them to acknowledge that yes, indeed, their shit does stink and that there's a steaming pile of it on the floor that needs immediate attention. :) Sorry about the crappy analogy. :D

I think you already know that this has to be approached from a "what am I going to do?" perspective. I just woke up from a nap. I'm feeling a little more clear-headed. I'm still hurting about what my family believes, but once again, I have to let them keep their shit. My task is to figure out how best to work on my own issues and one of those issues is to figure out how best to deal with people who keep trying to give me their steaming piles of shit.

[StellaBlue]

51. Exactly.

That's what's bugging me. THEY are making ME crazy. And I don't want to be filled with rage. But I cannot abide their ignorance.

[Ladyhawk]

63. Loving someone who is toxic to you is very, very hard.

Can you make them realize that you will not talk about politics? I am going to have to set that boundary once again. It was partially my fault it got breached again because I brought up * incompetence. By now, I should realize that my mother is not going to change. If she wants to know the truth, she is fully capable of seeking it out for herself. The problem is, she doesn't want to know. I've finally decided it isn't my responsibility to make her listen. :shrug:

Before I cut them off, my mother would not respect any of my boundaries. I scared her so badly that at least she will listen to me now when I tell her that I'm fed up. I've even planned a scenario. If she starts spouting right wing talking points, I'm going to get a blank look on my face and say, "The party you are trying to reach, (mechanical voice) Ladyhawk, is fed up and not available. To avoid a scene, please change the topic of conversation now."

It's sort of comical and hopefully will get her attention without pissing her off. :shrug: I'll have to rehearse it a few times.

[undeterred]

24. I've simply stopped associating with a few people.

They know why. A person who sends me right wing emails- I told her I delete them and don't send any more if you care about the friendship. I don't even have the patience to discuss the obvious any more.

[StellaBlue]

28. You know what they said to me once on the phone?

When we got into a heated argument (they are not capable, like their leader, of debate)?

'Well, fine then! You obviously belong over there, since you hate America so much. You just stay there with your no air conditioning and tiny refrigerators!'

Response of friends swerved wildly between :eyes: and :rofl:

[Lindsay]

29. Is there any chance you can say to them

that you've realized you and they will forever disagree on politics and you'd rather you all avoided the subject?

At least until you're back on your feet again?

[StellaBlue]

37. Yes, we've tried that.

But there is a strong tradition of being cognizant of current affairs and politics in my family; we all want to talk about it. And, to a certain point, we can have very interesting conversations (well, with at least some of them). But, when it comes down to it, they think I hate America, and I think they hate America by blindly supporting a murderous and unethical regime.

Plus when they drive me somewhere and make me listen to Faux radio for 5 or 6 hours... I get to a point where I can't handle it.

I thought it was bad when they were constantly watching the Natalee Holloway Cable News Channel, but this is even WORSE now because of the hurricane.

[FreedomAngel82]

36. I think the commandment

"thou shalt not kill" is very big. Sometime ask your friend what she thinks of this and why she supports war which kills thousands of people. Even if it's just our own military. I can't stand people like that either. I'm a Christian as well and get so frustrated. There are many examples in the Old Testament where God tells his people to go into this land (the land of Cannan by the way) and kill and take over the land. Sounds familiar doesn't it? And Jesus came and changed things. He is a very peaceful person. But also in Provbers King Solomon warns us that we should always check things out ourselves. We should never blindly follow someone and encourage critical thinking. Also, yes the Christian religion I'm pretty sure has done all sorts of stuff over the years (a perfect example is the Catholic priests and the young boys and how nothing was done). But in the Old Testament there are a lot of wars and taking over land etc. in the name of God.

[StellaBlue]

38. I think all these rethug and religious right types

quite clearly interpret that as 'Thou shalt not murder.'

[KerryOn]

43. Oh man....

The first thing I think you have to do when trying to talk with these people is to leave religion out of it. Do not mix religion and politics, just like keeping church and state separate.

I'm not all that religious but I do believe there is a superior being that I will have to answer to one day. In my opinion there are many ways to interpret the bible, which explains why there are so many different religions. If religion is mixed in with it there will always be problems.

I don't think there is any way to reason with these people, and I'm sure they are thinking the same way about you. The best thing to do is try to change the subject and just try to get along.

My wife and I got into heated debates with one of my brother in-laws last fall, at he family reunion. It was a very ugly seen, and I told my self that I would never let it happen again. At this years reunion we all got along fine, by leaving politics out of our lives.

[tlsmith1963]

47. I Wish I Could Go to Another Country

That must have been such an interesting experience. I think America is anti-intellectual. The stupidity here is killing me. I would *love* to go somewhere where intelligence wasn't hated.

Tammy

[StellaBlue]

53. I was thinking of Canada, but

a) I don't think I could handle the weather
b) I don't know if I could get in
c) I know only one person in the whole, huge country
d) I think that, now that 'fate' has brought me back here, I must ACT.

[markus]

48. Don't start no shit

won't be no shit.


eom

wetbankguide.blogspot.com

[StellaBlue]

52. I am finding that Buddhism...

... can really help a lot with the issues a lot of us in this thread are experiencing.

Thinking about compassion, causes and effects, the interconnectedness of all things, calmness, balance, the nature of reality, the 'unskillfulness' of anger and lashing out, etc.

[blitzen]

54. I have vowed to speak my mind loudly to all repukes all the time n/t

[StellaBlue]

55. That's how I feel

Like I am SO SICK of hearing all the *co lies and propaganda and of the anti-intellectualism - well, you know what? If you want to start talking about it in front of ME, YOU are going to have to listen to what WE have to say for a change!

It's weird, I almost feel oppressed. Like somehow mentally oppressed. Not actually oppressed, I realize I am not; I mean this figuratively. But it still feels very real and is very claustrophobic.

I can't imagine how hard it's been for all the poor, intelligent people who have been stuck here during the past 4 years that I have been fortunate enough to be abroad!

[Miss Chybil]

57. Ignore them. They aren't worth giving them free rent in your head.

Do what you need to do to make somebody's life better and leave the hateful be.

[La Coliniere]

58. They enjoy being passive-aggressive with you

and that is really difficult. I'm fortunate in that the members of my immediate family and I are on the same political wavelength. I have other relatives and co-workers who are republican't apologists for the * badministration who've learned through experience not to talk politics with me. I eat them alive with facts. They hate that. They are not well read and only know Faux News talking points and platitudes/banalities about American exceptionalism. If these folks are talking politics when I enter their environment, all political discussion ends. You will not win any arguments or debates with the seriously uninformed or passive-aggressive dittoheads. BUT you can get them to shut down so you don't have to endure their inane and ignorant opinions. Some day they will remember your ideas about how things are. Hopefully, by that time, it won't be too late.

[leftofthedial]

59. some are fundamentalists = religiously insane

some are fascist RWers = politically insane

These people are insane, mentally ill, unable to reason. They ignore what they do not want to believe and believe whatever they are told to believe, regardless how absurd it is.

don't waste your time with them. Just do all you can to keep them from breeding and to keep them out of power.

[StellaBlue]

60. I know this is flame-worthy...

and I have nothing against DECENT, HUMANITY-LOVING religious types (like liberal Christians, Quakers, Gandhi :) ), but I have always thought religious people seemed quite obviously to be suffering a form of mental illness.

The Dawkins meme theory made PERFECT sense to me when I first discovered it; exactly what I had been thinking since about age 14 (I feel stupid now for not waking up before that age - I am only above average, not a genius :( ).

[anitar1]

61. This sounds like a hard thing to do, but it really is not.

Start cutting them out of your life. I started doing that a few years back and find that life is more peaceful. Think about moving far away from them and do not be accessable.Really pick and choose if anyone wants to visit. Think of excuses ect as to why that is not a good time for you. Tell them you will let them know and then don't. Eventually their calls ect start lessening. If they make it too difficult for you tell them you cannot listen to them and will not. Life becomes so much better. You will not believe the peace one can experience. I do not allow any RW's in my life and have even told a couple that I cannot associate with them. They were shocked that I did not want to hear their nutty ravings about *. These same situations have happened to 3 friends of mine. They have totally dropped their families. Or one can choose to stay in the drama.

[KoKo]

62. They are in denial....I haven't found a way to deal with it

in my own family and with some friends. Some folks close their minds off...there's no way to reach them, and seem to enjoy it when one tries to "enlighten them."

I finally stopped trying with those who can't seem to open their mind to discussion that isn't lockstep with their beliefs. I had to avoid them all.

Some folks are open enough to discuss but the kind of person your post is about will never see Bush or their faith as anything other than what they believe.

At least, as I said, that's my experience. And, I'm too tired of that kind of one sided conversation to even try anymore. There's too much to do to support those of us who aren't like that.

[Lorien]

65. Me either. I talked to a woman I work with today

who said that all of the dead bodies seen in NOLA probably just came from the cemeteries :eyes:, worse yet, I overhead some old white guys at the hardware store going on about how the NOLA violence was due to "everyone coming off of their crack highs, 'cause they can't get their fix". Crap like that makes me glad I don't carry a gun!:grr:

[StellaBlue]

64. Have you read 'The Corrections' ?

Because Enid was, to me, the epitome of these people. Of what's wrong, and has always been wrong, with America.

First time I ever caught myself screaming at a book.