Death count from Katrina...

[SouthernDem2004]

You will get it when you get it. There is no pressing need for you to know the count. Your curiousity is of little importance. The number is useless. What possible need for it could anyone have unless they want to politicize death. Mind your own damn business.

The death count changes everyday. The SAR teams have only searched 1/2 of Biloxi. The rubble piles may never be searched. I can drive through me neighborhood and still smell the dead that have not been found. My dead friends and neighbors are not numbers. Shut up and leave us alone.

SouthernDem
Biloxi PD

[phusion]

1. Thank you, SD...Well said.

:hug:

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KyndCulture]

4. that was uncalled for.

Is your home destroyed? Are you under any duress...

and for the record he/she is EXACTLY RIGHT.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KyndCulture]

10. Your compassion underwelms me...

[Don Claybrook]

14. Please see post #20

I'm removing my posts because I was wrong. Please see #20.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

12. Agreed. And the dead should have a proper burial and be counted

Not covered in the rubble to save anyone's political ass.

I appreciate SouthernDem's efforts and have sympathy for his plight..but his call the other day not to politicize this when even HE WOULD HAVE MORE HELP IF WE DID and his call for us to all shut up about the death toll today are a bit over the top.

[Don Claybrook]

20. SouthernDem, I am sorry for my cruel and rash words

I completely disagree with what you've said about the death toll, and I react poorly to being told to shut up as a way to start a thread.

Nevertheless, I was wrong to be so angry about it and to use cruel words, before the edit, after the edit. And no, I cannot possibly know what it's like from 700 miles away, and it's not fair for me to respond in this way while you're dealing with both a personal crisis and a national one.

So please know that I am sorry for having said what I did, and to the members of the forum, I apologize.

Thank you.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. FOr the record, i was agreeing with the edited version

never saw the original version

[QC]

11. Wow--you talk real big from the safety of 700 miles away.

And posting personal attacks and then changing them to avoid trouble with the mods--that's real gutsy, too.

[Don Claybrook]

16. Please see post #20

I'm removing my posts because I was wrong. Please see #20.

[QC]

29. You did a great thing.

I think sometimes we feel so angry and powerless at what is happening that we lash out. I know I have done that at times here and then regretted it. I really admire your apology. (And, FWIW, I agree that the death counts are a legitimate issue.)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

31. SD doesn't. That is the point

[alcibiades_mystery]

17. I agree with you

SouthernDem has consistently tried to use his experience to trump discussion on any number of topics. Some may find this a useful strategy. I do not. We live in an open society, and the number of people killed by this storm is important information for all of us. SouthernDem doesn't get to dictate that, however close he is to the experience, or emotional the lenses through which he views this tragedy.

I was in Lower Manhattan on September 11. I lost friends in the WTC. I have never, ever tried to trump discussion with this experience. What happened that day is important information for the people of the United States of America. What happened in Biloxi and across the Gulf Shore is important information for the people of the United States of America. To restrict it to a personal question is a) cheap and b) misses the point of an open, democratic society entirely. And I'm about sick of responding to these threads asking everybody to ignore what's going on because we weren't there.

[QC]

19. Calling for open discussion is one thing...

calling people fascists is quite another. Dolling up nasty personal attacks with a pretense of high-mindedness doesn't make them something other than nasty personal attacks.

[alcibiades_mystery]

27. I'm not talking about that

And I didn't see that in the post. Must've been changed before I saw it.

I'm talking about the content of the original post.

The fact is that - in a society like our own - people are both dear to their loved ones AND "numbers." Would we hide the number of rapes that occur on college campuses every year because our daughter was raped on a college campus? No. Would we hide the number of murders every year because our son was murdered? No. The information is important for determining POLICY. It is "political," not in the sense that SouthernDem uses - some bizarre and petty contest - but in the brroadest sense: we the people determine the policies of our nation, and we need information to do that. And that turns victims, our sons and daughters and parents and friends, into numbers, at least for the purpose of the people of these United States making their own policies: of the people, for the people, by the people.

Now, I'm not calling for a running tally, but the notion that these numbers are somehow "private" is just plain wrong. I also have empathy for the disjunction between a neighbor as a life and a neighbor as a statistic. I understand where SouthernDem is coming from, and I understand this to be an emotionally wrenching procedure. But it is a necessary procedure in a democratic society.

[stray cat]

3. They are people not numbers or political props.

Thanks for the message and the reminded that this is going to take some time to figure out.

[blonndee]

6. I believe it's more than freaking "curiousity." jeeebus.

People want to make sure ALL THE DEAD ARE ACCOUNTED FOR!! Would you want any of your "dead friends and neighbors" buried in mass graves, overlooked, left to rot forever?!

If we get numbers it's harder for anyone to be overlooked, and harder for anything to be covered up.

This seems rather obvious to me.

[SouthernDem2004]

22. They will be recovered when time permits. There is no need for some

number. Theses are people not numbers. People will get their little statistic soon enough.

[Walt Starr]

7. Body counts in the immediate aftermath are generally PR moves

They always start out small and grow from there. It generally prepares people for the horrific reality.

Day 1: 110 dead, "I suppose that it could have been a lot worse"

Day 2: 143 Dead, "Not much worse than yesterday. I know it will grow and that's sad."

Day 3: 221 Dead,...

Etc.

See the picture? By the time the count is finalized, psychological preparation has been laid for the full extent of the horror.

Now we are talking about tens of thousands of dead. Waiting until the count is final to release the numbers will be a second shock wave for survivors and family as well as the rest of the country. While this approach might be politically damaging to Bush, I'd rather see people better prepared for the full extent of the horror prior to releasing the final count. When faced with the ultimate reality, it could be too horrific for much of the country.

[MojoXN]

8. May God be with you during these dark hours, SouthernDem.

[ohio_liberal]

9. In an open society

The dead are counted. It is our business. I'm very sorry for your losses.

[tyedyeto]

13. In some respects, knowing how many have perished...

can show us how many people have been truly impacted by this disaster. Not only those who are homeless and displaced, but for each and every one of those who have died, there are family members, friends and neighbors who's lives are inpacted because of those deaths.

If reporting those numbers can help with relief efforts (some who have not donated may be likely to donated after hearing about those who have died), why not report them?

[DoYouEverWonder]

15. This will come out

this involves too many people. They can't hide all the obituaries.

When things settle down, we might want to collect that sort of info and keep track?

[KyndCulture]

18. I think we need to exercise some of our liberal compassion here

for the OP and the poster as we sit in comfort.

SD I am so sorry for your loses and I have no morbid desire to hear a minute by minute update on these numbers. We all know how high they are and this isn't a car accident on the 6 o'clock news.

We don't need to know a number to be outraged. We need to have some human compassion for the people affected that the fact they are our brothers and sisters and they are suffering and all this pissing and moaning to get a number is throwing salt in a very open wound.

/rant off.

I wish you peace SouthernDem

[SouthernDem2004]

21. If you do not like my post put me on ignore. /nt

[Imagevision]

23. I agree, we'll know after rescue has been completed and the search

for the dead still trapped in those dwellings can be undertaken.

"we have to wait until the President authorizes us"

http://downingstreetmemo.com/

[catnhatnh]

24. Exactly what good does the failure to keep...

an accounting of the dead do? I do sympathize with your personal losses but utterly fail to recognize how keeping the count "secret" even makes sense...Its happened, it is true, and delaying the release just causes rumor and suspicion....

[catnhatnh]

25. Deleted/Dupe

[thinkingwoman]

26. The numbers are everyone's business, BUT...

nobody needs them, or frankly even knows them, yet.

I think I understand what is prompting this post and your complaint about some people wanting to politicize the toll is spot on.

As is your point about the death count not being known yet. Those poor souls killed by this storm are not my friends and neighbors (luckily everyone I know in the area is safe), but I still share your frustration with those clamoring for numbers RIGHT NOW! I don't know where these people think these numbers are going to come from at the moment. A guess?

No thanks. I'll wait for the most accurate numbers that can be given--which means waiting for weeks, maybe longer, depending on how long clean up efforts take.

Hang in there SouthernDem. I don't have to tell you how tough your job is normally. I cannot imagine what it is like right now, but I absolutely admire you for doing it.

[cynatnite]

28. Your anger, frustration and grieving is understandable

I know I would not want people I know, who have died, to become statistics, but it is a sad truth of the world we live in.

We're forever counting the dead troops and innocents in Iraq. This tragedy will be no different.

Many of us are angry, too. Gross incompetence and negligence has lead to so much unnecessary death.

Even though we do not know your friends and neighbors, many of us recognize their importance to you. They will never be a statistic to you. They will have a face, a name and you will carry their memory with you forever.

The enormity of this tragedy which was compounded by unforgiving contempt by this administration will be felt by many of us for years to come and the final death toll will be on the heads of those who could have done more to prevent it.

I mourn your loss and the loss this nation has suffered. The images will remain in my memory forever and will never be a statistic.