So, do the Naderites STILL think their wasted votes were worth it?

[Obamarama]

Just ever so slightly down a notch from the extreme, utter contempt I have for Republicans and their so-called leaders right now, are the Naderites. The realization that if they hadn't wasted their votes, hope COULD have been on the way...hope WOULD have been on the way if they had not thrown their votes away in the garbage is sickening to me. You may not deserve a place in hell with the Republicans, but I hope you spend a hell of a lot of time in purgatory.

[Arkana]

1. As much as I dislike Saint Ralph, I hate these flamefest threads more.

:popcorn:

[Rex]

2. nt

:popcorn:

[JVS]

5. Right on!

[LoZoccolo]

7. I think threads calling out Naderites are necessary.

People go into the voting booth with a vanity vote thinking it will have no effect and we won't remember what they did when it does.

Also, you can see that these people STILL won't take responsibility for their actions by the way they try to get you not to talk about this.

[renaissanceguy]

31. I think threads calling on our Dem politicians

to stand up for progressive principles, are more beneficial.

How the hell do you expect to win support of those you bash: Naderites, gays, and pro-choice activists (I remember your past comments very well, LoZoccolo.)

[Frances]

35. I agree

People who still support Nader remind me of Bush: It's always someone's else's fault, never their own.

I am absolutely certain that Gore's budget would not have cut money for the levees and that New Orleans would not be under water today.

And can anyone imagine Gore eating birthday cake and playing a guitar while New Orleans flooded?

Not to mention that the National Guard would have been at home and not in Iraq.

[Karmakaze]

98. So when are you gonna call out the Dems who voted for Bush?

11 percent of registered Dems voted for Bush - Why do they not receive your wrath?

[dsc]

127. That is a flat out falsehood

89% of Democrats voted for Gore and some percentage of them voted for Nader, thus less than 11% voted for Bush.

[GreenPartyVoter]

133. In Florida?

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[dsc]

159. The poster didn't say Florida Democrats

they said Democrats.

[charlie]

139. Gotta disagree

There's a CBS exit poll I posted here long ago that had some 12-13% of self-identified Dems voting for Bush in Florida. Dunno if I can find it again, but I can try if you'd like.

[dsc]

160. The word Florida doesn't appear in that post

[Karmakaze]

164. Sorry but you are WRONG.

11% of Dems voted for Bush in 2000 and 2004. You may not like that fact, but its true.

[dsc]

170. I have posted the exit polls repeatedly on this forum

and 89% of Dems voted for Gore. Unless 0% of them voted for Nader or any other third party for that matter, less than 11% voted for Bush.

[dsc]

173. I apologize

CNN agrees with you, the NYT is what I used and they had different numbers.

[Karmakaze]

183. ook, I dont want to turn this into a pissing match...

I just think people have to stop blaming each other on the left, and point the finger where the blame really lies: firmly on Bush.

Attacking Greens or Nader voters is NOT going to change anything but it may ENSURE that NOTHING changes.

[dsc]

193. On that we disagree

They are very much to blame here. Without them Bush would have been known as a mediocre governor of Texas whose dad had been President and who lost a close race to Al Gore. Instead, he may well wind up being the most important, for all kinds of bad reasons, President of the 21st century.

[Karmakaze]

198. Who is to blame? The Dems who voted for Bush?

The Dems who made Nader look like an attractive alternative?

Who?

[dsc]

212. Gore did better amongst Democrats than anyone since LBJ

and it is no accident you have to go back that far to find one who did do better. Nearly all of those 'Democrats' who voted for Bush are only 'Democrats' out of habit or to vote in local primaries. Now, if you wish our candidates to appeal to racists, stop supporting abortion rights, and stop supporting gay rights to attract those 'Democrats' then honestly admit it. If not, then don't blame them when we lose.

Incidently my Grandmother, who voted for every single Democrat since FDR was a registered Republican in Florida for the mirror image reason. In her part of Florida the only way her local vote could count was to register as a Republican, which she did. Should Republicans have tried to get her vote?

Nader flat out lied to the American people, and in doing so helped elect Bush.

[Karmakaze]

216. Huh????

Isn't that EXACTLY what the anti-Green Dems are trying to do? Isnt that EXACTLY what YOU are doing by attacking the people who voted for Nader while ignoring these Dems who voted for Bush?

The whole reason Nader got as many votes as he did is because the Dems were pandering to these 6 million who voted for Bush.

Can't you see that? You give thse people who voted for Bush a pass while blaming people who didn't even vote for him!

That is insane.

[dsc]

221. No he wasn't pandering to those people

The fact is that virtually none of those people live in northern suburbs which is who Gore did pander to. These people live largly in southern suburbs and rural areas in the south and midwest. In all of those places are ticket did poorly. Gore did fantasticly well in northern metro areas.

It hardly surprises me that bigots voted for Bush, that is what I would expect them to do. And virtually all those 'Dems' who voted for Bush were in fact either bigotted against blacks or gays or both.

[libhill]

219. If it is true

then you're talking about single issue, probably rural southern voters (and I am a Southerner myself, so don't go there) who were swayed by the Repuke rhetoric about God / guns / gays, and who don't have the common sense it takes to realize that they were voting against their own best interests. The Greens should have known better. The truth is, Nader never has had / never will have a chance in hell, and a Nader vote is a wasted vote. The god damn truth hurts. Conversely, though, the Rethugs have the Libertarian people to contend with, so I suppose we all have our problems.

[Obamarama]

131. Because they aren't likely to be haunting DU...YOU ARE.

FYI, I posted below that I hold them in as much contempt as Naderite vote wasters.

[Karmakaze]

171. So the SIX MILLION Dems who voted for Bush are less to blame

or at least deserve less contempt than 400,000 people IN TOTAL who voted for Nader?

On edit: Sorry thats 2004 results - 2000 results were 2.9 MILLION votes for Nader

[Inland]

214. If they don't see what happened in 2000, they doom us to repeat it.

I usually don't join in harping, but for god's sake there are so many naderites who are perfectly willing to do it all over again, and there really isn't any way to argue against it, because they don't accept a causality between NOT voting for the democratic candidate and assisting the republican.

Even the republicans could figure THAT one out, giving money to Nader in 2004.

[Pithy Cherub]

10. yep

:boring:

[Lost-in-FL]

12. Hum...

:popcorn:

[Lost-in-FL]

33. My 100 post!!

:popcorn: :popcorn: :yoiks:

[GreenPartyVoter]

48. Congrats! :^)

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[burythehatchet]

176. not only that, but the whole argument

is one of the most useless exercises. Don't they think that Rove's Vot-o-matic would account for any vote pattern? Rove must love these threads.

[GreenPartyVoter]

3. Most of us voted for Kerry last time. Blame Diebold for ** being

in charge of this mess and not Kerry.

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[JVS]

4. Hmmm, if voting can get one sent to hell or purgatory perhaps...

it would be better to abstain from voting at all.

[Beelzebud]

6. I'll give Nader credit for one thing:

He stands up for his beliefs.

I can't say the same for Kerry.

[LoZoccolo]

11. So his belief is getting flood prevention and disaster recovery cut?

And starting a war in Iraq?

Interesting. I'm glad I didn't vote for him.

[GreenPartyVoter]

15. No, but I support his "Ban Oasis" plank

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[charlie]

20. Ouch

:)

[JVS]

26. That's below the belt!

[Lindacooks]

18. Oh really? Where was he when Bush was slashing the federal

budget for levees, flood evacuations, FEMA, the Army Corps of Engineers, etc. etc. etc. etc.?? I haven't heard 'Ralph' (and I use that word as a barfing sound because I throw up every time I see that ugly fucker) saying ANYTHING about that. He just accepted Repuke money and crawled back under his rock.

[GreenPartyVoter]

21. Yeah, we all know hwo the MSM loves to report anything that goes contrary

to what ** wants.

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[Placebo]

8. Amen!

[Webster Green]

9. I don't like the two party system...

I'm starting to lean towards the Green Party again.

Eat my shorts! :P


Demand resignations! Now!

[LoZoccolo]

36. Did the Republicans promise to start a BIGGER war or something?

Is that why you want them in office again?

[Lindacooks]

13. You're right. You're completely right.

[sniffa]

14. ooh, i Love these threads

:popcorn:

depending on whether there's a mod here, i give it about 20 minutes.

[GreenPartyVoter]

16. Hey... can I have some popcorn?

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[sniffa]

22. do you Like butter?

mmm mmmm i Love me some buttered corn. :popcorn:

[GreenPartyVoter]

25. Yep.. salt too. :^D

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[bicentennial_baby]

17. my thought exactly!

i'll join you! :popcorn:

[sniffa]

yay

we can share the bucket. :loveya:

[bicentennial_baby]

34. awwww

you AND overhashed subjects just make me feel so warm and fuzzy! :P

:loveya:

[GreenPartyVoter]

116. Thanks! *munch munch*

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[renaissanceguy]

19. KzooDem, I suggest that instead of bashing Naderites,

you suggest that the Dems give Naderites a reason to vote Democratic. Americans have every right to vote their conscience, and if the Dems keep pandering to the religious right, then of course the Naderites are going to go Green.

So all in all, don't blame the Naderites. Blame these idiot "advisors" who scapegoat gays and women for their losses without realizing that it is a lack of backbone that makes us lose.

[LoZoccolo]

24. He is giving them a reason to vote Democratic.

It's just not one they care about (poor people dying).

[renaissanceguy]

39. ...by placing blame on them for the Katrina fiasco?

They voted Nader, so Bush got to be pRes, so all this disaster happened... therefore, it is their fault.


Riiiiight. THAT'S going to win them over.

[LoZoccolo]

51. No, it was the irresponsible and senseless idea...

...that there was not enough difference between the Democrats and Republicans to let the Democrats win. They like to walk around with their little show-off vanity vote, well we're here to let them know that we DON'T think it's cool to get peoples' disaster prevention and recovery cut, and they WILL be put down for it if they do it again and continue to molest people like impressionable college students with their senseless rhetoric.

[GreenPartyVoter]

61. Do I need to trot out the 3 wheels versus the donut spare tire

analogy for you again? Will you ever agree that having four good tires is best for driving on, or will you always be content to have that little dinky donut in place?

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[LoZoccolo]

69. Is this a joke?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[GreenPartyVoter]

77. Republican Admins is like losing a wheel on your car and trying to keep

on driving around. Dem admins under the typical DLC candidates would be like slapping on a dinky donut tire and calling it good enough.

But I don't want the dinky donut.. I want a full-size decent tire. Do you get it yet? Half-measures and "hey, at least he's not quite as bad as the other guy" isn't good enough!


RAISE THE @!#(*^#$@(*&%^ BAR ALREADY!

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[Obamarama]

At least the "donut tire" will get you to the place you need to get...

until you can the one tire replaced. Do you really expect people to take that as a serious analogy. Wow, if that's all you have to stand on, it's no wonder you can't connect the dots.

[GreenPartyVoter]

111. Yes but the DLC doesn't want to replace the tire. Do you not see that?

That is all they have to offer you.

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[Autonomy]

154. So you if you can't have an SUV with 4 steel-belted radials

you won't drive at all. Maybe a Republican will give you a ride. Ya think?

[GreenPartyVoter]

158. Hey, I voted for your donut this last time because

it was an emergency. That is the time when donuts are used, yes? It is a means to and end. Get to the mechanic and fix the problem.

However, I am not content to keep the donut forever and ever, unlike some people. They don't think a trip to the mechanic is warrented cause they can get by on the donut.

Again I say, raise the bar already!

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[Autonomy]

189. It was an emergency in 2000, too. You just cannot admit

Nader's part in causing that crisis. Raising the bar is good, but like every economic model utility curve, it comes at a cost. At some point raising the bar another inch costs you everything. If you cannot even recognize where that point was in retrospect, how can I or anyone else rely on your judgment regarding future events?

[GreenPartyVoter]

197. It was not an emergency in 2000. Any sane person who heard **

speak knew that there was no way people could vote this idiot into office.

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[Autonomy]

207. LOL. I agree with you!

But what you refuse to acknowledge is that there are a lot of insane people who vote. They're called Republicans. They are the enemy. Period.

[GreenPartyVoter]

208. Agreed. :^)

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[Karmakaze]

210. six millions of them were called Democrats...

that is how many Dems voted for Bush. Of course they barely rate a mention around here....

[renaissanceguy]

63. "sensless rhetoric"

By that, do you mean:

-Their advocating clean air and warning of global warming.
-Their advocating of equal rights for all
-Their advocating of peace
-Their advocating of social safetynets

Very sensless. You would have had FDR tarred and feathered, wouldn't you?

[LoZoccolo]

70. No. n/t

[renaissanceguy]

78. Then what is so senseless?

Maybe, did you think for a second, that the senseless rhetoric comes from the REPUBLICANS?

And did you think that maybe, just maybe, our side isn't standing up to the REPUBLICANS like it should be?

We don't have a modern-day FDR. Instead, we have plenty of "triangulators" who might be doing what they feel is best for the country, but are killing the party.

[LoZoccolo]

114. The idea that there is no difference between parties is senseless. n/t

[GreenPartyVoter]

117. How about "There is not enough difference" That work better for ya?

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[LoZoccolo]

122. Tell that to the Katrina victims and dead soldiers. n/t

[GreenPartyVoter]

124. Cause, yeah.. the Greens caused all of that. We're so powerful and all

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[GreenPartyVoter]

67. Those difference you are talking about would be

what now?

Yes, Clinton did great with FEMA No doubt about that.. but there are some other issues you have to recall..

Was Bill C. showing the difference between Dems and Rrepubs when he:

Allowed federal funds to be given to faith-based charities.

Upped the number of crimes that can be punishable by the death penalty and would not declare support for a moratorium on the death penalty, depsite having knowledge that there are many innocent people in line for the needle. Also he supported the 3 strikes law, even if people just committed three minor crimes like shopilifting gum.

Was against same-sex marriages.

Knocked ten million people off of welfare who had nowhere else to turn. (And offered states extra money if they too reduced the welfare rolls, but did not require that these folks have some sort of job or alternative income source.)

Was not supportive of pregnant teens who needed help.

Pursued most of Newt Gingrich's Contract for America. (Lowering the capital gains tax, for one.)

He dropped the ball on making sure everyone has health insurance, including illegal immigrants.

Made certain no American funds would help women in other countries secure an abortion if they need one.

Wouldn’t sign the land mine ban treaty.

Screwed up the Kyoto treaty so that it wouldn’t do much to reduce carbon dioxide in our air, then refused to sign it til the last day of his term (Knowing full well $hrub would nullify that anyway.)

Drilled for more oil on federal lands than even Ronnie Reagan, privatized a major California oil field, and failed to get auto manufacturers to improve the mpg of their cars.

Allowed for deregulation that has dismantled our checks and balances in our business sector. Enron, anyone??

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[LoZoccolo]

74. "Yes, Clinton did great with FEMA No doubt about that."

There you go. Compare that, and all the other issues you mention, to Bush*'s agenda, and then you have all the information you need to make a decision which has effects in reality. Anything else is senseless because it will not happen in reality.

[GreenPartyVoter]

90. So...job outsourcing and poinson in the water and all that other stuff..

that doesn't matter. Only disaster management/protection matters?

Jeez, you shoulda voted for **.. that was his line.

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[LoZoccolo]

112. Yes, it does.

So what has Bush* done for it?

[JackDragna]

168. Oooh, no! We'll be PUT DOWN for it!

Please, LoZoccolo. Save us from your righteous, vote-for-the-Democratic-party-no-matter-what-their-position wrath.

[LoZoccolo]

172. You responded to this thread, didn't you? n/t

[AverageJoe]

79. Yep

yep. yep. yep.

[eileen_d]

23. YHGTBFKM!

(you have got to be f**king kidding me)

[Obamarama]

28. Actually, no...I am quite serious.

[GreenPartyVoter]

42. Just so you know.. many of us begged our fellow greens and indies to vote

for Kerry.. and succeeded. To the point of decimating our own party.

Not that most dems would care about that, though.

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[still_one]

27. in 2000 yes, BUT NOT 2004

Kerry destroyed it

In the grand canyon he was asked knowing what you know now would you have still voted to give * the authority to go into Iraq, and he said yes

The democrats should have nominated clark, dean, or edwards

sorry, Kerry could NOT articulate, but the biggest problem was people didn't even BOTHER TO VOTE

It was the same thing in 2000

We are paying for the consequences of those who decided NOT TO VOTE, not the green party

In fact for six YEARS the democrats GAVE this administration EVERYTHING THEY ASKED FOR. Where is the opposition?

Notable exceptions:

Russ Feingold, Barbara Boxer, Dennis Kucinich, and others

[GreenPartyVoter]

37. Actually, I think Kerry won just on ABB principles alone.... everything on

the ground pointed to a weariness of **. And the lack of exit polling makes me very suspicious that they would not have matched up with the "official" election results.

Damn DIEBOLD.

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[still_one]

59. That may be, but if there was a turnout, it would NOT have mattered

[GreenPartyVoter]

62. No.. turnout does not matter any more. Under Diebold the numbers

can say anything they want.

Who is to contradict them.. the media??? :(

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[Obamarama]

38. Um, if 2000 hadn't been THROWN AWAY, the clown wouldn't be in office NOW!

CONNECT THE GODDAMNED DOTS FOR ONCE IN YOU LIFE.

[GreenPartyVoter]

43. The SCOTUS and DIEBOLD did Gore in more than anything else

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[Marr]

29. In a word, yes. Is Kerry still "fighting for you"?

For the record, I swallowed my pride and voted for that DLC sellout, John Kerry. But it was the last time I will ever do so.

When the Dems stop running DLC faux-populists, trying to have their cake (and corporate cash), and eat it, too... then I'll happily vote for them again in a presidential election.

We're not asking for frigging Che Guevarra. I'd be happy with a Howard Dean.

[jpgray]

30. Nader voters didn't help in 2000, but being hostile to them doesn't either

I think hanging the whole debacle of Bush's reign on their necks is a little much--they were indirect help for Bush, not the primary cause of his selection.

[LoZoccolo]

40. It's called "realizing consequences".

Also, it lessens the value of this show-off vanity vote to let them know it does not impress people to do things that leave thousands dead.

[GreenPartyVoter]

45. This whole "Vote for my party and let me slap you around while you're

at it" technique.. not gonna win too many people over.

Just sayin'.

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[renaissanceguy]

50. Thank you, GPV.

I get sick of hearing DLC type folks on here bitching about how we have to support each and every Dem politician, regardless of his or her views. But when we ask what that Dem politician will do for us, we're told to shut up.

Just a hunch...but I'm willing to bet those types are white, heterosexual, middle/upper class people who have never been discriminated against or faced hardships in their lives.

[Obamarama]

55. Your hunch is wrong.

I'm as gay as the day is long, FYI.

[renaissanceguy]

66. Then you should know better.

What have the Dems, as a party, done for LGBT people? NOTHING. Sure, there are great individual politicians who care about us. But we have YET for the party to call strongly FOR our rights, not just opposing constitutional amendments. And they are still minimally vocal on THAT.

There's nothing wrong with party members asking questions of their own party. But I WILL NOT be told to shut up.

[dsc]

146. Just what has Nader done for gays?

The man didn't even know about the most important USSC case regarding gays in 2000 just after it was handed down and while he was running for President.

BTW Clinton eliminated discrimination against gays in all civilian government agencies and appointed several gays and gay friendly people to important positions in the education, justice, and other relevent departments.

[GreenPartyVoter]

148. And on gay marriage?

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[dsc]

167. answer my question first

In Nader's entire career name one, just one single, solitary thing he has done, not said but done, which benefitted gays. If you can do that, I will discuss any issue you want. I don't think he even had non discrimination policies for his public interest groups.

[GreenPartyVoter]

58. Well I liken it to a catholic priest running up and down the aisle of

a Baptist church, trying to shame the members into "Coming Home" when most likely none were ever Catholics in the first place and most are quite happy to be Baptists.

Doesn't mean they don't like Catholics or can't appreciate all the wonderful things Catholics do. Doesn't mean they can't work with them under an interfaith banner. Just that there is something about being Baptist that appeals to them.

The sooner we can get a multi-party alliance government set up here, the better. (Of course, there is SO much more we need to do to make it so our gov't truly represents the PEOPLE.)

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[LoZoccolo]

64. A Nader vote is a white heterosexual middle/upper class luxury.

This is because to them it doesn't matter if the Republicans win.

Witness the CBC approaching Nader and him dissing the CBC in the 2004 election.

So why did the Naderites not care if he ended up in office?

[renaissanceguy]

73. I disagree. I think the poor people saw it more that way.

There is a fine line between DLC and repug economic policy. When people think the end result is going to be the same (repug/conserv eco policies), of course they are going to go for a third alternative. in the end, the repug/conserv policy would prevail, but at least they can say they didn't enable it.

[LoZoccolo]

86. No they're not going to go for a third alternative.

"but at least they can say they didn't enable it"

Bullshit, yes they did. They should see this when Republicans are supporting his run.

It's the people for which a Republican administration has no effect on their lives that vote for Bush* through Nader.

[LoZoccolo]

56. And Nader's is the "kill people until they shape up" technique.

He just uses other people to do it. Stalin strategy, which is why I compare him to Stalin.

[LoZoccolo]

57. Also, Nader is a terrorist.

That does not win people over.

[renaissanceguy]

46. Naderites ARE NOT the ones to blame.

Did they ask for this war? NO! In fact, many DEMOCRATS voted FOR the war, and still support it...diverging all our resources THERE.

If anything, it's the Greens (and mind you I do not belong to the Greens) who advocate for the poor and needy much more than the Dems, collectively, do.

[LoZoccolo]

54. They said there was little difference between the parties.

Now we see that thousands of people die because of things that would have been different. Giving nominal opposition to these things does not impress me.

[renaissanceguy]

92. I doubt Nader voters realized it at the time.

Do you have future vision?

Did you, personally, realize that 9/11 was going to happen, that Katrina would happen 5 years down the road?

I doubt it.

Given the current climate in 1999 and what we knew about both candidates, I don't blame Naderites. Sure, we can agree IN HINDSIGHT that Gore would've been FAR BETTER. But that is what it is--HINDSIGHT. We can't change it now.

And besides, do you forget that Gore WON the popular vote? The election was hijacked by the SCOTUS. So, Gore won IN SPITE OF the Nader voters.

[GreenPartyVoter]

99. He can't get past party loyalty to actually think those things over. He

wants a scapegoat and rather than blame ** he will go after people here.

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[LoZoccolo]

103. This isn't about party loyalty clouding my reason.

It's about reality shaping how I make it happen.

[renaissanceguy]

107. You have yet to address my question.

Did you personally foresee 9/11 and Katrina? If you did, I sure hope you shouted from the rooftops in '00, because I sure as hell don't remember hearing about these catastrophies then.

[LoZoccolo]

109. No, I didn't.

But there was still enough reason not to do something that made it easier for Bush* to end up in the White House. And it is a lie that there is no difference between the parties. We may not have known how it would play out, but we already knew it wasn't true.

[renaissanceguy]

206. You may have known that, but they probably didn't.

And I'm going to believe what they say. They came around in 2004, after all.

[LoZoccolo]

100. Everybody knows there's a difference.

You see people on here still defending Nader and third-parties even after that, because it's not a question of reason or foresight, but vanity.

[Autonomy]

200. I understand that Green voters lacked foresight

and the ability to distinguish between two drastically different candidates, but what I do NOT understand is why they are deflecting the blame with what seems the be the willingness to repeat the same mistake.

[GreenPartyVoter]

204. a) They didn;t look drastically different, not like Nader and ** did and b

who says we repeated the same mistke? I helped kill off my party by talking others into voting for Kerry. Do any Dems here care? About 8 said they would be willing to help breathe life back into the Greens in exchange for hamstringing ourselves in favor of the Dems.

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[Autonomy]

213. I care. In fact, I probably agree with you on 99% of your issues.

However, I'll take 75% with a Dem over a Republican ZERO anyday. That's what it takes. Sorry to get all preachy. I appreciate your solidarity with Kerry. He was far from my favorite candidate, too.

[jpgray]

47. 90,000 Nader votes in FL weren't a sufficient condition to get Bush in

They just -may- have been a necessary condition. And that's pretty iffy. In any case, blaming fellow lefties is entertaining because we can hurt them, since we are ostensible allies. It's like how some treat their friends like kings and queens but treat their family members like shit since they know that there is an irrevocable attachment there. We on the left are like a big, nasty, acrimonious family.

[LoZoccolo]

60. What do you do when people know the consequences of their actions...

...and don't care? What do you do with these people, who value the show-off power of the Nader vote more than human life? If I could think of a better way, I would probably be using it.

[Minstrel Boy]

32. Wasted votes are those which are counted by Republicans.

I won't blame those who look outside the box in which privilege has placed them.

[Dastard Stepchild]

41. Woah.... is it November, 2000?

Cool. With an extra five years again under my belt, I can FINALLY learn to play piano. When 2005 hits, I'm gonna be a recording star!

edited for sp.

[charlie]

49. Even cooler

We can relive the old flame wars just by cutting and pasting from the forum archives. Internecine warfare has never been easier!

[Dastard Stepchild]

53. oh yeah :)

Man.. starting a war has never been so easy! Hopefully Bush won't learn how to start a war on the down low during his presidency.

[nosmokes]

44. but i voted for the levees before i voted against them...n/t

;)

[Marr]

52. By the way- you do understand that you don't own the green vote, yeah?

If the Dems want it, they can fucking earn it.

[LoZoccolo]

65. And if you vote that way...

...you can eat the criticism, because it has consequences, and you're gonna hear them.

[GreenPartyVoter]

71. And you can eat criticism for not offering decent candidates.. can ya

take it?

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[LoZoccolo]

96. You act like some central authority decides our candidates.

They don't. People vote for them in primaries and caucuses. Oh, and Kucinich got less than 3% or something.

[GreenPartyVoter]

102. Yeah.. the frontloaded -most- money -takes -all-no-ranked-voting primaries

...what a friggin joke. A travesty of democracy.

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[LoZoccolo]

106. Ask her what she thinks of your ranked voting. (WARNING - GRAPHIC)

Oops, sorry, you can't because she's dead.

[GreenPartyVoter]

110. Ask her why you won't fight against DIEBOLD or voter suppression?

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[LoZoccolo]

119. This isn't about that so you don't know that I won't. n/t

[GreenPartyVoter]

136. It isn't about that?! Are you crazy?!

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[LoZoccolo]

140. No I'm not, you changed the subject. n/t

[Karmakaze]

157. True - more Dems voted for BUSH than Kucinich...

But that is the Greens fault right?

Dont blame the Dems and indepenents who voted for Nader, blame the DEMS who voted FOR BUSH. They did far more damage.

Here is an interesting statistic that all the Nader haters ignore:

Party ID             Bush        Kerry         Nader

Democrat (37%)       11%         89%           0%
Republican (37%)     93%         6%            0%
Independent (26%)    48%         49%           1%

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

Notice anything DAMNING about those figures? Like maybe it was the Dems who voted for Bush rather than the Dems or Independents that voted for Nader that won Bush the election?

So quit blaming Nader, and the people who voted for him - they did NOTHING in comparison to the Dems who voted for Bush.

[Obamarama]

72. Damn LoZocco....you despise the Naderites ever more than I!

:toast: I should buy you a beer at the Billy Goat Tavern when I'm in Chitown next weekend!

[LoZoccolo]

166. Ha, thanks, but that won't be necessary.

I've been at this for a loooong time. :toast:

The funny thing is, I was thinking of voting for Nader in 2000, and my dad just said casually "well, you know a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush", and even though it still wouldn't have mattered here I was like, "well, that's right" and that was all it took! And then we have these people still at it after all this Bush stuff!

[GreenPartyVoter]

174. Too bad your old man didn't explain to you that the system needs to be

overhauled.

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[Marr]

80. You can critique my voting habits however you like. I think *you*

enable a bunch of Lieberman-esque, pro-war, anti-labor sellouts. So I guess we've both got some consequences to list, don't we?

[GreenPartyVoter]

82. Truth!

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[LoZoccolo]

91. Maybe.

But yours are worse.

[Marr]

121. Here's the thing.

If your dream comes true and we get DLC candidates sprinkled all through the government. What happens? Basically the Republican agenda, watered down a little. Clinton gave us NAFTA, GATT, the Telecom Act... not the actions of a populist, and all these things contributed in no small way to the situation the middle class is in today.

At best, the DLC offers a slow, downward spiral into the corporatist agenda, rather than the all-out race for it that the Republicans want.

A pyrrhic victory at best. And then of course, there's the other problem. Dems have been running DLC candidates for years and THEY LOSE. Even with alot of Green support- they LOSE.

[LoZoccolo]

135. If we get DLC candidates...

...it would have been because people voted for them in the primary and general, which for some reason people forget. If people don't want DLC candidates, they will have to not vote for them in the primaries.

[GreenPartyVoter]

149. Too bad the primaries so badly structured so as to be pointless

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[GettysbergII]

68. I didn't vote for Nader either of last two elections but putting that

on him is a bunch of bullshit. The fact is that if Democratic Party wasn't damn near as bankrupt and sold out to the corporations as the Republican Party, both elections would have been run away victories for the Democrats. Also both Gore and Kerry were wishy, washy assholes that didn't inspire much confidence in the working people of this country. Had either shown the spine of a Feingold or a Dean or a Nader, they would have won going away. Finally the 'two party system' of Bad (the Globalist boy) and Worse (the Military Industrial Complexes boy) needs to go. If the Dems don't have someone better than Gore or Kerry running next time I'd vote for Nader in a New York minute.

[Obamarama]

75. Then shame on you. n/t

[GreenPartyVoter]

81. Shame for wanting better?!? Jeez it's like calling an abused woman out

for wanting to leave her hubby for a decent guy.

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[U4ikLefty]

178. Shame on you for trotting out a loser campaign.

[Karmakaze]

76. I have far more contempt for the Dems...

who voted FOR BUSH.

[GreenPartyVoter]

Man, I hope they didn't do it twice.

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[Obamarama]

84. They are on equal footing with the Naderite vote wasters.

Both groups are equally as responsible for this fiasco we are stuck with. The only group that trumps them is the Not So Grand Party itself.

[GreenPartyVoter]

85. Um.. NO. Nader voters supported their own guy.. Dem crossovers

were sellouts.

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[JVS]

89. I would say they are more responsible

they not only took one stone from the dems' pile, but they added one to bush's pile

[Karmakaze]

188. Exactly

Nader took votes out of play - but the Dems who VOTED FOR BUSH made their vote count AGAINST the left.

Yet how often do you hear people demanding they be purged?


In fact we keep hearing about how Dems should move even FURTHER right to win them back. So its screw the Nader people who are on OUR SIDE and praise the Bush people who aren't.

That makes a WHOLE lot of sense. :eyes:

[GreenPartyVoter]

194. It doesn't matter to these people that I did everything I could to get

Greens and indies to vote for Kerry this last time. Not in the least.

No matter how much I tell them that they just keep on screaming at me.

And yet, I feel pretty sure that if I asked them to vote Green in a race where the Green seemed likely to win... they wouldn't do it.

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[Karmakaze]

202. Well I know at least six million Dems definately wouldn't

they prefer Bush...

[LeftyMom]

83. If you want to attack people for wasted votes

Please start with the eligible voters who couldn't be bothered to cast a ballot.

[renaissanceguy]

95. You know, I STILL know people who didn't even vote in '04.

Amazing but true. I don't even want to HEAR their complaints.

[LeftyMom]

108. Can I give you a suggestion?

Call them, bug them, pick them up and drive them to vote if you have to. It works. I worked a polling place in November and one young man came in four times over the course of the day, bringing his siblings, parents and neighbors to make sure they cast thier ballots.

[renaissanceguy]

118. Oh, I don't let them forget it!

;-) And believe me, it's caused some people to stop answering my calls--I don't let them forget, not during a single conversation.

[Q]

87. Not a fucking word about election fraud or illegal SC decisions?

It seems that you're actually helping the Bushies get away with some of the most serious crimes ever committed against our country and people.

[Q]

88. Not a fucking word about election fraud or illegal SC decisions?

It seems that you're actually helping the Bushies get away with some of the most serious crimes ever committed against our country and people.

Nader is 'guilty' of running for president in a Democracy. The Bushies are guilty of treason and worse.

Your priorities are really fucked up.

[GreenPartyVoter]

93. Some people will not open their eyes to the fraud and cronyism.

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[mandyky]

94. Ahem - what frigging Dems have we heard from

other than the CBC? Naderites, as you call Nader voters, were disgusted with Gore's campaign.

I voted for Kerry in 04, but that also was a dud. When Dems act like Dems, maybe Nader and other 3rd parties won't get so many votes.

As for hell and purgatory, I don't believe in either, but it was a pretty low blow. About as bad as blaming gays and feminists for disasters!

[renaissanceguy]

101. and just as bad as blaming them for losing elections.

Like another poster said, people quickly forget that Gore WON the popular vote, but the election was hijacked by the SCOTUS. And Kerry won the '04 election but Diebold took care of that.

[NNadir]

97. Sure they do. They're a lot like Bushies.

[renaissanceguy]

104. One more point

This thread is arguing about the '00 election.

But what about 2004? Nader2000 voters voted overwhelmingly for Kerry in '04 in hopes to get Bush out. Not to mention, Gore WON in 2000, but the SCOTUS changed that.

Do you folks STILL blame the Nader voters now??

[GreenPartyVoter]

105. Of course they do.. They refuse to hear about SCOTUS or DIEBOLD

so who is left to blame?

I helped dismantle my own party trying to get people to vote for Kerry.. but it doesn't matter. I still get reamed out by some perfectionists on here.

*sigh*

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[renaissanceguy]

115. Well, I for one, am grateful for your efforts.

I'm shocked at how some DEMOCRATS on here our acting. By their Darwinist talk, you'd think they were REPUBLICANS.

[GreenPartyVoter]

123. Thanks :^) I am actually not a party loyalist to the point that

I could never vote for someone outside my party. I vote progressive, period.

I think it is very doubtful that certain other people in this conversation could say they have voted for a Green.
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[renaissanceguy]

128. I consider myself an independent, really.

I don't care WHERE the idea comes from...if it's a good idea, I'll support that politician 100%. 2008 should be interesting. If we're stuck with Hillary, I don't know what I'll do. I fear it will be 2000 all over again.

[GreenPartyVoter]

142. I worry too.... At this point I am sick over the DIEBOLD factor. They are

in more states now.. We can look for me Chambliss/Cleland matches I think. :mad:

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[Autonomy]

152. That's an interesting choice of words: "Darwinist"

You state it as though you have some sort of religious aversion of the concept. This is politics, not a religion. We're not trying to get to heaven; we're trying to win elections, not at "any cost", but certainly with the recognition of the price it takes to make some gains.

[renaissanceguy]

203. First of all, what does Darwin have to do with religion?

I'm talking about Social Darwinism--survival of the fittest--cutting off the "weakest link" to succeed.

[Autonomy]

218. Hmm. What was "second of all"?

Just kidding. What does Darwin have to do with religion? Ask the Creationists. The reality of natural selection is inconvenient to the far Right and the far Left. The Right doesn't want it taught, and the Left doesn't want it practiced.

Yeah, I'm being a little bit flippant. I used it as a segue to what seems to me to be a "purity" hangup in the typical Green Party voter.

Btw, natural selection does not necessarily mean "cutting of the weakest link to succeed". It more often means simply outcompeting the other guy. Clinton was the fittest, and he never had to cut anyone off to succeed.

[Autonomy]

134. Yep.

Mind you, no one group gets ALL the blame. There's plenty to go around. But the Greens stood up and loudly claimed their fair share of the ignominy that is Bush. The fact that they didn't ask for a second helping is, obviously, irrelvent; they got it anyway.

[demodonkey]

113. Nader did NOT cause Al Gore to lose because AL GORE won. We wuz robbed.

If the whole state of FL had been properly recounted in 2000, ** would never have been Pretzeldint.

Get a grip people and look at what these paperless electronic voting systems are taking us. You really trust DIEBOLD to count your vote?? Hmmmm????

Under the Help America Vote Act, every county in the USA is supposed to choose new voting systems by 1/1/06. May will choose paperless electronic boxes which are not recountable or auditable; just trust in whatever Corporate whore that made them to count for you.

You want to keep Bushco from happening again, go to your County Board of Elections TOMORROW and see what they are planning to buy with your county's HAVA money. Get involved NOW and put pressure on your county to get a machine that is auditable and recountable. The best choice is precinct-count optical scan, which has a Voter Verified Paper Ballot as an integral part of its system. The next best is a machine (touchscreen, etc) which has the ability to produce a Voter Verified Paper Record. In any system, the key words are VOTER-VERIFIED and PAPER. The worst thing your county could get is a computerized machine that never lets you see your vote on paper.

If you want more info, please see national sites www.VoteTrustUSA.org , www.VerifiedVoting.org , or www.VotersUnite.org . See the movie at www.votergate.tv

Wake up and help fight this, before it is too late.

[LoZoccolo]

126. The question is not who should have won.

The question is whether or not it's irresponsible to vote for Nader.

[GreenPartyVoter]

130. The question is whether or not you believe in democracy. I say you don't

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[LoZoccolo]

138. Oh no, what will I do now. n/t

[GreenPartyVoter]

143. See? You refuse to answer questions about election integrity and

democratic principles. You don't want to talk about rescuing the system.. you just want a scapegoat to beat up on.

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[LoZoccolo]

151. Because it's a distraction and I don't necessarily oppose it.

If your ranked vanity vote system would allow people to vote for who they want to tell their friends they voted for first and the candidate who will defeat the Republicans second, then I wouldn't mind having it. But I will not tolerate the idea of pretending we don't have a two-party system, and acting accordingly, for as long as it actually remains in place in reality.

[GreenPartyVoter]

153. You think it's all about vanity?

If people choose a candidate that you don't approve of, it's vanity?

Tell me, who's the real snob here?

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[LoZoccolo]

155. Yes, when you do something you know won't work, it's vanity.

That's like, the definition of vanity.

[GreenPartyVoter]

163. And my point is you don't want to change it so that it will work

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[LoZoccolo]

175. And my point is you don't know that and I'm not talking about that. n/t

[GreenPartyVoter]

179. Of course you don't want to talk about it. That would be

productive and a whole lot less fun than slamming people.

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[LoZoccolo]

181. Nope and I've already explained why. n/t

[GreenPartyVoter]

184. If by explained you mean telling me that ranked voting isn't

good enough for you.

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[LoZoccolo]

192. No. n/t

[demodonkey]

165. The "responsible" thing to do is for each to vote his or her conscience.

:-)

[Obamarama]

161. And the answer for the last two elections has been YES

[Brightmore]

120. I don't blame the ones who voted for Nader in 2000

It's the idiots who voted for him in 2004 that I can't stand.

[GreenPartyVoter]

129. There were really so few of them though... Those who voted for him would

never have voted Dem had he not run. Kerry got all of us who would consider voting Dem.

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[LittleClarkie]

125. A vote cast is not a wasted vote

And exersizing one's right to vote doesn't condemn one to hell, or even heck.

I may think Nader is a clown, esp. now.

But those who voted for him are not to blame. Ever.

I call bullshit.

[renaissanceguy]

137. A voice of reason! n/t

[Obamarama]

141. Wow...I see Republicans aren't the only ones drinking Kool-Aid these days.

[LittleClarkie]

156. You don't take it well when people disagree with you, do you.

I find your entire attitude of blame to be abhorent.

[Obamarama]

169. I find the irresponsible apologist attitudes of Naderites abhorent.

So I guess that makes us even?

[U4ikLefty]

185. Don't you have some hurricane victims to blame?!?

[Obamarama]

196. That's a pretty sick comment. FYI....

I'm jus not allowing ANYONE remotely responsible for enabling the installation of the Bush Administration get a "pass" any longer.
They should all hang their empty heads in complete shame.

[GreenPartyVoter]

199. So you wrote to Gore and chewed him out for giving up, I take it?

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[LittleClarkie]

201. Ooh. Koolade drinker, apologist... dat all you got?

Let me help.

How about sychophant.

Bot maybe?

It's amazing how those words get wheeled out when someone has run out of real arguements.

[Drewskie]

150. those who voted are'nt to blame

I'd agree as the general populace is gullible and can be persuaded to vote for most anyone. The guy running, however, has to think about why he is running(chance to win? No. Platform? Sort of liberal anyways.), and what the ramifications are for his running. Claims he took votes from Bush as opposed to Gore/Kerry are what are really ludicrous.

[Drewskie]

132. Nader took 90,000 votes in Florida 2000...

No way in hell they(the neo cons) could have snaked and weaseled out a phoney victory with that kind of margin. Nader should feel some guilt... no doubt about it.

[GreenPartyVoter]

145. You really trust the numbers that they give us? Really, truly?

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[demodonkey]

177. "They" can make 9000 into 90,000 or 900,000 if "they" want to on those...

paperless machines.

YOU will NEVER on God's green earth be able to definitively prove fraud or "machine failure" or anything without a meaningful audit or recount. And when there's NOTHING there but some electrons on a computer chip to audit or recount, well.... Good luck!

[Kitsune]

144. My wasted vote for John Kerry wasn't worth it.

Like hell he had my back when it fucking counted.

[mandyky]

147. The only reason I am still a Democrat is

because of Howard Dean. We see how the party machinery treated him. He was the only candidate speaking out that had a snowball's chance.

[JackDragna]

162. How about contempt for the International World Worker's Party?

How about contempt for Al Gore, who ran an extremely weak, ineffective campaign? How about contempt for the general direction of the Democratic Party through the 90's, which became increasingly hostile to advancing the causes of the poor and downtrodden in favor of taking pro-business stands? How about the tendency for Democrats to become socially conservative, with an increasing number of pro-life, anti-gay candidates? Oh, I'm sorry. I'm supposed to vote for "the opposition party" no matter how far from my values their agenda swings. The blame for the loss in '00 rests solely on Gore, his campaign advisors and the Democratic party in general.

Bottom line: GOOD main party candidates win despite the existence of populist third-party candidates.

[LoZoccolo]

180. Nader had the most visible campaign of political pedophilia and terrorism.

Political pedophilia as in, preying on impressionable college students with the notion that there is no difference between the candidates.

Terrorism as in threatening to make things worse if he doesn't get his way.

[GreenPartyVoter]

182. Ah, so you admit that it is the media's fault.

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[LoZoccolo]

187. What? No. Is this another joke? n/t

[GreenPartyVoter]

190. So tell me. Are the Dems and the Greens exactly the same?

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[LoZoccolo]

191. No. n/t

[GreenPartyVoter]

195. Are their platforms different?

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[JackDragna]

205. Yes, impressionable college students..

..and anyone else who thought Gore defended the general public with the same zeal of an 8-year-old told to go clean his room. As for the pedophilia and terrorism..give me a break. Are your argumentative skills really that weak you have to bust out emotional buzzwords to defend your arguments?

[Inland]

209. So you are pleased Bush won in 2000.

After all, the fact that so-called democrats and democratic leaners didn't vote for Gore proves him weak.

However the fact Bush won despite the existence of a third party proves him to be a good candidate.

Well, whatever. You and every other person, including GOP and International World Workers' Party members, have to live with the fact that you could have prevented the worst president this country has ever had and didn't. But you live.

Too fucking bad for the Americans that didn't survive it and can't hear you blaming everyone else for the idiotic belief that someone else is to blame for their votes, huh? Too FUCKING bad for them!

[JackDragna]

215. Nice strawman fallacy.

Nice try, though. Bush was not a good candidate in terms of his policies, but he certainly rallied the Republicans around their base. He did his job. It's a shame Gore couldn't do that. I wonder why Gore didn't do that so well. Oh, yeah. Because he and the rest of the Democrats treated his base like crap.

And no, we don't have to live with that at all. The blame for the loss in 2000 rests solely with Al Gore and the Democratic party. Did Nader make Gore look impatient and unpracticed in the debates? Was he the one who sat idly by as Gore did nothing against the ridiculous personal attacks made against him? No. It was Gore's fault. Period. End of story, end of discussion.

And I see you've thrown in another nice strawman at the end there. I certainly don't blame Gore's voters for his failures. As far as "the ones that survived it", I'd assume you mean "it" was the hurricane. Let me tell you something, friend: I live here in Louisiana and I can't find a single Democrat among the many I know who hold Ralph Nader responsible in any way. That's not to say they're not out there, but it indicates to me you're simply playing an emotional card you have no business playing. Nice try, though. Thank you, drive through.

[Blue_Tires]

186. in '00 i voted Nader

in a state that bush won by 30 points (approx. 65-35 in KS)....please tell me why i'm to blame and how a solitary Gore vote would have turned the entire state blue

[HEyHEY]

211. And awaaay we go!

:popcorn:

[stevedeshazer]

217. You really should get out more.

You're in need of some fresh air.

I'd be banned if I said what I really think about your pitiful post.

[Obamarama]

220. Wow...I guess the truth really DOES hurt.

[JackDragna]

222. If the truth hurts..

..then the previous poster is enjoying life, as there's not a centilla of it in anything you Nader-bashers have to offer.

[Moderator]

223. Locking.

This thread has become too heated.