CNN Breaking: "No Autopsies on Victims of Katrina"

[TahitiNut]

Right now, CNN is reportying that 'officials' are seeking a large plot of land to bury the bodies of victims of Katrina, at least initially. They have decided to forego any autopsies whatsoever, except in instances of obvious violence (gunshot wounds, etc.). The reason will be given as "storm-related."

Well, that takes care of any assessment of "cause of death," folks. The Bushoilini Regime dodges another bullet of truth. :grr:

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. How very Saddam-like. Be sure to mention it to all RWers you cross paths

with.

------------------------------------------------------
Save the Gulf:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=106&topic_id=22507&mesg_id=22507

Then save the nation!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm

[Historic NY]

81. Compare & contrast...................

Iraq.


US.



Will this be N.O. victims....

[Junkdrawer]

2. Are they going to try to identify the bodies?

:shrug:

[expatriot]

12. they'll probably take pictures, dental impressions and DNA samples

and catalogue them for later identification or something to that effect.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

24. Pictures of what, exactly? The bodies will be pretty badly decomposed....

...and may be completely unrecognizable, even to family and friends.

[leftchick]

13. It does not sound like it

This is an outrage and Nagin should be screaming his head off about it. Time to Yell again!

[TahitiNut]

16. An earlier report indicated that retrieval teams were documenting ...

... things like location of body and attendant identification. The hue and cry of relatives would be cacophonous if they couldn't even match the 'missing' with the bodies.

[Junkdrawer]

33. So, no differentiation between "drowning" and "dehydration/starvation"...

:shrug:

[TahitiNut]

38. Correct. Not even a time of death, as far as I could understand.

Perhaps the visual examination might be documented/recorded. I don't know. The CNN reporter did specify, however, the the cause of death would be recorded as "storm-related" -- which is a clear indication to me that time, manner, and cause will be ignored.

[Junkdrawer]

42. How about a statistical sampling? Anyway to do a statistically revelant...

sampling? :shrug:

[TahitiNut]

48. Assuming the ME human resources are available, I suppose so.

I'm somewhat dubious that anyone would consider this. I think they're making decisions based on a very large dose of politics.

[endarkenment]

66. If the resources are not available:

make them available. WTF? This is total bullshit. This is an insult to the dead and to the families of the dead and to every citizen of this nation. We are just dogs to be dumped in a pit when dead.

[TahitiNut]

67. I agree fully. It's (yet) another abomination.

This regime treats human beings as a discardable and disposable commodity. It's morally bankrupt.

[wakeme2008]

3. I would agree with this...

There is just too many bodies and I think the current estimate is low :cry:

[endarkenment]

61. nonsense.

But I'll tell you what: how about we examine the first 10,000 dead and see what they died from, and then if there are too many more dead people to handle, we can stop there?

At a minimum dental records, fingerprints, photographs, and dna samples have to be taken of each person. While you are there, an ME could easily determine if the cause of death is drowning. Autopsies could be triaged to all those who did NOT die from drowning. Aren't you even mildly curious how many people were killed by criminal negligence?

[Modem Butterfly]

4. I don't think autopsies are practical with the sheer number of dead...

...and the condition of the bodies.

[ohio_liberal]

11. I heard on TV (don't remember which network)

that the NO great metro area had a morgue set up that could only 'process' 140 bodies per day.

[endarkenment]

53. I saw on tv a field morgue that was up and running and

was reported to be capable of handling 5,000 bodies. The army has this equipment. FEMA has this equipment. If they need more: fly it the fuck in and set it the fuck up. This is criminal behavior.

[Clark2008]

62. The condition of the body doesn't matter.

Skilled Medical Examiners can still determine time and manner of death in most of these cases. For example, an ME can look into the fluid of the eye and the condition of the lungs to determine whether someone was dead before they fell into the water, which, of course, would mean they died of something other than drowning - like starvation or lack of water.

I know people like Dr. William Bass, a leading forensic anthropolgist from the University of Tennessee and curator of The Body Farm (you can Goolge this), could determine the cause of death in, I'm guessing, about 90 to 95 percent of these victims. It's amazing what is done in autopsies now days.

What this smacks of to me is that the administration doesn't want people to know that many - too many - of these people died well after the intial hurricane and subsequent levee breaches because of lack of care.

[Walt Starr]

5. "He buried his own people in mass graves"

Where have I heard about mass graves before?

[lostnfound]

39. My goodness Walt..

I used to wonder about you!! Lately you are sounding radical. Guess you've reached your boiling point,eh?
:hi:
:applause:

[Iris]

57. "while he played golf."

[expatriot]

6. They should "poll" the victims with random sampling.

I understand how they wouldn't have the resources to do a thorough autopsy on all the dead, but they should give autopsies to a random sampling of the dead.

[peekaloo]

7. Mass graves?

oh my.

[malaise]

I wonder who will count them? n/t

[TahitiNut]

46. The reporter DID NOT say 'mass graves'!

She reported that 'authorities were seeking out a large plot of land in Louisiana for burial of victims of Katrina, at least temporarily.' There was nothing in the report to indicate "mass graves" - and nothing to guarantee individual graves, either ... except for the qualifier that burials could be "temporary", I CANNOT resolve the option of a 'temporary burial' with a 'mass burial.' I therefore assume, with some rational reason, that "mass burial" is not (yet?) the announced policy or intention.

[endarkenment]

54. it is still unacceptable bullshit.

And by the way, ought we to wait until they have finished destroying the evidence of their crimes against humanity until we ask questions, demand answers and protest their actions?

[defiant1]

8. I'd have to agree....

Just doesn't seem logistically possible.

[endarkenment]

55. wrong.

There are already field morgues set up with refrigeration capabilities. I saw one on TV last night that was reported to have a 5,000 body capacity. Two of those ought to do it, right? What's the rush? Huh?

[MuseRider]

9. Autopsy "obvious violence"?

Why if it is obvious do they need to autopsy it? If they are in such a hurry to cover up their crimes why would they take out the obvious deaths? What about DNA testing so relatives can know what happened to their loved ones? It would take a lot less time to get samples than to do autopsies.

[TahitiNut]

58. Because it'd be EVIDENCIARY ... but the "culprit" not politically TEFLON.

Clearly, an autopsy on a victim of violence not directly related to the storm is rationalized for reasons of criminal prosecution, even though we may never know who did the crime.

It's fascinating. In the case where we DO KNOW who the culprits are (Smirk and company), they're specifically AVOIDING the collection of evidence!!!

That's what it means to be wealthy and powerful, I guess.

[MuseRider]

75. Yes, it just seems so obvious

but I guess not to everyone. Actually, almost every death can be attributed to the Chimp and his cronies.

[prolesunited]

10. They don't want any assessment

of who survived the storm and who died later from slow response. My guess, more people died because of the incompetence, neglect that diesd in the actual storm.

[TahitiNut]

19. Yep. It'll be forever unknown. Another cover-up.

:grr:

[me b zola]

23. That is what I strongly suspect

Can you imaging the class action law suit? With everyone's cause of death being listed as storm related I don't believe they will have any legal recourse.

If my loved one died in front of me from dehydration because the idiot king refused to let aid get to us, I would not rest until justice was done.


There will be hell to pay when these people learn that help was intentionally denied to them.

There will be hell to pay.

[HEyHEY]

88. Good point at first I thought it was the right thing... but yeah that make

sense

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

14. They don't want people to know the time of death

Afterall, if they survived til September 5, it looks bad

[tx_dem41]

18. My guess is that after a few weeks submerged in water...

they wouldn't get an accurate read on that anyway (give or take a few days). Just a guess though.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

29. Nope. they can.

I work with forensic specialists. They can get an approxiamte time of death.

[endarkenment]

50. and an approximat ecause and they can rule out drowning.

This is bullshit in the extreme.

[Cooley Hurd]

15. Fucking MASS GRAVES??????? In AMERICA?!?!?!?!?!?

They could set up a DNA database from relatives of the missing (ones not killed in the flood - there MUST be some out-of-state relatives of the missing!) - they did it for all the rich bankers killed on 9/11!!!

FUCK!!! AAARRGH!!!!:grr::mad::grr::mad:

[MuseRider]

22. I don't think

there is much alternative to the grave situation since these bodies will be huge sources for disease. I wonder if they will take a sample from each however so families can find out it their loved one was buried there.

It is one more thing, that there were so many dead, that GWB had to bury his own people in mass graves. There should never have been that many left to die.

[TahitiNut]

51. STOP JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS, PLEASE!

See my post #46 above.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4659944&mesg_id=4660467

[Cooley Hurd]

59. MY post was #15, yours was #46...

...and you're wondering why I jumped to that conclusion?:shrug: Your OP said "large plot of land" and said nothing about "temporary," so don't yell at me, okay?

[TahitiNut]

65. There's NOTHING in my OM to infer "mass graves."

Indeed, the report of "burial, at least temporarily" would CERTAINLY be contraindicative of a "mass grave."

I personally put no limits on the depths of depravity of this regime. I would NOT BE SURPRISED (shocked? yes. surprised? no.) if there were mass burials. There is NOT yet, however, reason to jump to that conclusion.

The STORY is about the avoidance of performing autopsies!

[Cooley Hurd]

68. "Temporarily" is not in the OP...

"Initially" and "Temporarily" can have two different meanings.

I understand what you mean now, with the clarification.:thumbsup:

[TahitiNut]

73. Right. "at least initially" is a quote. "temporarily" is a paraphrase.

In composing the post, I made an effort to quote the reporter's language as closely, completely, and succinctly as possible for me.

[Mizmoon]

17. I don't see any other alternative

they will have to make some legal exceptions for people to collect life insurance and whatnot if there's no legal proof of death, though.

[endarkenment]

47. The alternative is that you put the bodies

in a field morgue (they already have one set up) and you perform an autopsy on each one to determine the cause and time of death. Anything else is criminal behavior.

[Zynx]

87. You do realize that would take years with the numbers we are talking?

[smurfygirl]

20. I think they should try to contact the families

if they have an id on the body. First they should contact and see if they want the body for burial. Family's can pay for their own autopsy. I have seen this done before.

If they can't id them or contact family then burying them is probably the proper thing to do although I don't know if a mass grave is the best choice for this.

[WiseButAngrySara]

21. CAUSE OF DEATH: Criminal Negligence; MASS HOMICIDE.....n/t

[WiseButAngrySara]

32. MANNER (not cause as I stated aboove) Of Death: Mass Homicide

due to criminal negligence

COD: Drowning, or starvation, or dehydration etc.

This is MASS MURDER, IMO; NOT ACCIDENTAL

[Catchawave]

25. So we'll never know if they "didn't evacuate" because of

health issues? Or starvation? Or floated out of their wheel chairs, so they can just tally numbers and blame the Mayor ?

This is GOD DAMN AMERICA, damnit, damnit, damnit ! I think this just pushed me over the edge, and I'm mad as hell and am not going to take this anymore!!!!!

Who are these GOD DAMN "officials" anyhow??? Certainly not Schiavo supporters either :eyes:

Sorry for the rant guys...:grouphug:

[TahitiNut]

34. I agree with the rant. It DISHONORS the suffering and dying moments ...

... of the victims. It's seems to me that if I were one of these victims, I'd want people to know WHY and HOW I died! Was I not able to get insulin? Was I not able to get water? Was I injured and trapped, and left undetected all alone? At a very minimum, time of death should be estimated. Forensic medical science is advanced enough to assess this based on blood coagulation, tissue morbidity, and parasitology examinations. Medical examiners across the nation should be brought in, imho.

[coffeenap]

26. Any links yet? I want to send it to on air radio people. thanks.

[JimmyJazz]

27. That is just unbelievable! This is becoming too much to bear!

:mad:

They will do anything to keep people from knowing the truth.

[KyndCulture]

36. I agree...it's becoming too much! What the fuck can we even do!

they won't be held accountable...

:nuke:

[Richard Steele]

28. HIDE the cause of death & HIDE the numbers of dead.

Autopsy could tell whether someone died
of drowning as opposed to dehydration/starvation...
B*shCabalInc.™ can't allow those numbers to come out.

Their CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE killed more people than Katrina did.

And you better believe they are gonna have
people with guns keeping cameras away from that
entire mass-grave operation.

They CAN'T let people see the REAL results of B*sh:
Piles of AMERICANS shoved into mass graves by bulldozers.

THAT is B*sh's real legacy for the ages.

[madokie]

30. Trying to hide something no doubt. n/t

[meganmonkey]

31. What 'officials'? Is this actually going to happen or is it just

some agency wishful thinking out loud?

[Triana]

35. Can you say "mass graves"

First bu$hit drowns, starves, and leaves his own people to rot in a devastaed area for days, then he buries them in mass graves.

How Saddaam of him!

[underpants]

37. Aside from obvious cases I don't see the need to

I posted this last week-there are all kinds of scores being settled but aside from poisonings if there isn't an obvious sign of anything other than drowning and the like why would they need to do autopsies?

[TahitiNut]

40. Unless the cost in lives of delays to respond are assessed ...

... how can we ever know, empirically, the accurate justification for demanding quick response?? This isn't JUST about blame; this is about making a public welfare case for IMMEDIATE disaster recovery. Like it or not, lives ARE denominated in dollars ... and the review and assessment, just of the TIME of death, offers an important measure of cost/benefit. It seems to me that they die in even more vain if we don't learn from them.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

41. Time of death

all the victims that survived past Monday or Tuesday are a POX on this admin's response to catastrophe

[gollygee]

44. I want to know how many people died during the storm

and how many people died after the storm when no one came to help them. I want to know how many people died because of negligence.

[endarkenment]

49. death from dehydration/malnutrition/lack of medicine

is a direct result of the negligence of the federal government and is a crime.

[underpants]

60. Oh sorry I forgot about that part

I apologize.

[Betsy Ross]

43. Eliminating heart attacks, strokes, etc.,

will actually increase the number of deaths listed as "storm-related." Of course, that assumes * ever lets the statistics released.

[endarkenment]

45. We are now officially in the coverup phase of the crime.

This is deliberate destruction of evidence and it is a felony. No law enforcement offical should participate in the felonious destruction of the evidence of the thousands of negligent homicide deaths that the Cabal has committed.

[arwalden]

52. So How Will We Tell Who Died WAITING FOR HELP...

and which ones died as a result of DROWNING... and which ones died because of the storm's violent fury itself (collapsed house, etc.)

Not to be too ghoulish about it... but it's important to know how many COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED and not to merge them in with the ones that could NOT have been saved.

[Cairycat]

56. wouldn't it be possible to autopsy a portion

of the victims? If they do 1000 autopsies and 950 have no water in their lungs, it would certainly appear that the 950 died of dehydration, etc. and would indicate though not prove that 95% of the other 9000 also died from causes other than flooding. Or am I way off base?

Don't know if it will do any good but I wrote my Dem. senator to try to stop this.

[leftchick]

63. Do you suppose they did this in Indonesia

after the Tsunami?

[Zynx]

86. Um, yeah, they did. Totally impossilbe to deal with that many bodies.

[McCamy Taylor]

64. Want to cover up how many died of exposure waiting for aid.

[Don Claybrook]

69. Which 'officials'? City, State, or Federal? n/t

[TahitiNut]

72. She didn't specify, as I recall. She was reporting from outside ...

... some building/facility where she'd learned this. (You know, our "news" people don't pay much attention to that "journalism" stuff like Who, What, Where, When, Why and How.)

[kestrel91316]

70. Somebody needs to declare NOLA a CRIME SCENE ........

so they will have to use forensic medicine to determine cause of death like with 9/11. Then they will be forced to document cause of death of everybody they find.

[kestrel91316]

71. The "crime" being CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT HOM:ICIDE>

[Silverhair]

74. Take of the tinfoil hat.

It takes time to do an autopsy and there are thousands of bodies being recovered. There just isn't the time. And what would all of those autopsies show? Are you looking for anything other than the obvious - drowning or thrist?

Nobody is dodging any truth.

That tinfoil hat is making the rest of us look silly.

[endarkenment]

77. bullshit

The effort to sort out the dead-by-drowning from the dead from other causes is pretty easy to do as a first pass while the processing of the dead for dental, fingerprint, dna, and photographic records is being done. I'm no expert but I do believe that the determination of death by drowning is fairly easy to do. So worst case: triage the autopsies to those who did not drown. Right?

There is simply no reason to use mass graves, unless the number of dead exceeds the field morgue capability. As I have stated here repeatedly, I saw on tv last night one such field morgue, in place, up and running, with a reported capacity of 5,000. So we need just two of those to handle the only reported estimate I've seen: 10,000 dead.

And thanks for insulting every last one of us with the tinfoil label. Just what level of criminal behavior by this administration will lead you to join us with your hat on?

[Zynx]

85. Morgue != autopsy lab and autopsy team

It takes several hours to do an autopsy, clean up, and move on to the next. With, say, 20,000 bodies and assuming three hours per body, and assuming you have five labs running 24/7 doing nothing else, you could process 40 bodies a day.

That's FIVE HUNDRED DAYS, just to process the hurricane victims. This once again assumes that surviving autopsy labs around the NO area have nothing better to do.

[Nikki Stone 1]

76. They don't want to find DEHYDRATION and STARVATION

That would mean FEMA and the Feds--and maybe Bush personally--could be sued.

[TahitiNut]

78. I doubt there was starvation. That takes far longer.

Clearly, however, many would die from dehydration and exposure. That might only take a few days for some -- infants, elderly. Those who were unable to obtain their medications (e.g. diabetis) or essential care (e.g. dialysis) would be among the most revelatory, imho. Anyone who was bed-ridden or in at-home care of various kinds whould be important to identify. I'm actually somewhat skeptical that very many died of drowning - except for those unable to escape being entrapped in a house that was submerged. Those'd mostly be the infirm, very young and very old. I think those'd be less than 50%, with the remainder due to causes listed above or by the trauma of wind-blown projectiles or collapsing structures. I guess we'll never know. :grr:

[mogster]

79. Mass graves?

How about the relatives wondering where their loved ones are? Are they not to get an answer?

Norway has offered specialists in the forensic area - they have plenty of experience from the tsunami, worked in Thailand for months.

There should be some closure for the people left behind. Not to mention authopsies to determine the cause of death - it's just as important.

A shame! Every Norwegian lost in the tsunami was attempted found and identified. It's a minimum any citizen are to expect from the government.

[TahitiNut]

80. Autopsies ARE being performed on Mississippi's dead

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4661766

[Zynx]

89. Mississippi has a lot less dead

[TahitiNut]

91. Relief resources should be allocated uniformly by NEED.

It's unacceptable that FEMA would allocate more per capita resources where the NEED is less! The average household net worth in Mississippi's devastated areas is clearly higher than that of New Orleans' ... and probably Louisiana's devastated area. I'd suggest this might have far more to do with the allocation of resources -- and perhaps the political party of the Governor! Perhaps. (Yeah. Perhaps.)

[spuddonna]

82. Yeah, if there were victims of chemical spills or disease...

...no one needs to know that!

Having a decent burial for your loved ones... what's that all about?

These people... swear words do not do them justice... I have sworn more this week than I have in my entire life...

[Zynx]

83. Will the chicken littles please do the math? Autopsy = several hours each

Number of bodies = 10,000+ at least.

Massive waste of resources.

[moondust]

93. Random sampling is the least they could do. eom

[TahitiNut]

94. "Massive waste of resources."?? Nonsense!

Compare it to cleaning up the streets. Are streets more important than victims?? Compare it to the resources that'll be devoted to a plethora of other property-related tasks. Are all these more important than human victims??

If there are 10,000 fatalities then it calls for 10,000 autopsies, imho.

If that requires twenty mobile autopsy labs (doesn't a city the size of New Orleans have at least 20 medical facilities in which autopsies were performed??) then devote twenty autopsy labs to the tas. If it requires fifty, then make fifty available.

If all else fails, ask Cuba to do it! They have the personnel! They might like the training opportunity.

[tedzbear]

84. The chimp doesn't want to spend the $ to do autopsies...

He prefers the Saddam Hussein technique of quick burials in mass graves. I hope the commentators blast him for this new insult/atrocity.

[G_j]

90. that is criminal!

more cover up. Did they die of thirst, hunger, exposure, lack of meds, drowning?
We need to know.

Sounds like Chernobyl, or worse?

[Karmadillo]

92. Wait until Leading Democrats get hold of this! nt

nt

[TahitiNut]

95. CUBA COULD DO IT FOR US! (They offered assistance, right?)

This is merely one response to those who claim it'd take too many resources. Nonfuckingsense! When we can turn down assistance, we aren't "lacking resources"!

[genieroze]

96. The reason will be given as "storm-related."? Try Neglect CNN ass-wipes.

[stevedeshazer]

97. I'm just white-hot pissed right now. I'm rarely at a loss for words, but.

Good God, man. :grr:

[Karenina]

98. AHHHH! I see!

No one wants to know who was poisoned, drowned, dehydrated, starved, traumatized, or just damn tired of the shit. They just want to count the victims of "Nigras runnin' wild and loose in the streets." Klasse!