WE MUST DEMAND AUTOPSIES ON THE VICTIMS!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

In LBN there is an article stating they will use mass graves. This is unacceptable. The ONLY justification for not citing CAUSE OF DEATH and TIME OF DEATH is that the federal government does NOT WANT YOU TO KNOW that many of these people survived until this weekend or later.

[Cooley Hurd]

1. They went to great lengths to identify even the smallest bone fragments

...from the rich bankers that died on 9/11!!!

(I know that wasn't your point, NSMA, but the callousness of it all has me in a fucking FIT!):grr:

On edit: NOMINATED!!!!!!!:kick:

[liberal N proud]

8. Great point Cooley

Why do the poor of NOLA not deserve the same treatment.

[Misunderestimator]

2. You've got to be kidding... This is for real? Mass graves?

That is totally unacceptable! Of COURSE they will try to cover up WHEN these poor people died.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

10. here's the link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4659944&mesg_id=4659944

[Jackpine Radical]

43. Mass graves...mass graves...That phrase rings a bell.

Now, where did I hear about it before? Something about a despotic leader burying his own people in mass graves?...Hmmm.

[SmokingJacket]

3. It's VERY important we know how many died from drowning, and

how many from dehydration, and how many from dysentary, and how many from gunshot wounds if we're ever going to learn anything about how to handle a disaster like this again.

[me b zola]

16. I fear that the families will have no legal recourse without autopsies

When these families find out that aid was deliberately withheld from them all holy hell will break out.

These people continue to be spit on by this criminal administration :grr:

[livetohike]

4. Nominated NSMA

I am sure that enough qualified people can get down to NO to help with the autopsies. This is a major issue, imo.

[lostnfound]

21. They refused offers from coroners to come to the city. nt

[rsmith6621]

5. Where do we get the $$$$$

Where Do we get enough ME.......

The Government is broke...its all in those around shrub bank accounts.

[progmom]

6. mass graves.

words fail me.
this is america?

[meganmonkey]

7. Can you link to the LBN thread or the article saying this?

I am curious who said it and in what context. I can't find it in there.

Thanks

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

12. here you go

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4659944&mesg_id=4659944

[meganmonkey]

15. Thanks!

[Mizmoon]

9. Who wants to volunteer to collect these bodies?

we're talking about 10,000 bloated, rotten, bug-riddled, disease carrying bodies.

[JimmyJazz]

13. We NEED to know who died as a result of tragedy (drowning)

and who died as a result of the criminal acts of the government. Otherwise, this will be whitewashed by the government, the anger of the people will abate and history will not be honest in its assessment of what really happened.

[Midlodemocrat]

22. We not only NEED to know, we have a RIGHT to know.

Fascist fucks.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

14. So what?

[Thtwudbeme]

17. ummm this isn't a "volunteer position," like handing out donuts. This is

a job that people get paid for.

I was a paramedic; I don't remember anyone asking me to "volunteer" to go to something really ugly when I was ON THE CLOCK.

[Tanuki]

19. Please

These are American citizens who became bloated bodies through no fault of their own. If one bloated body turned up mysteriously in the river near your town, I'm sure it would be autopsied for cause and circumstances of death, so why should any of these citizens, whom the Bush administration has already failed so miserably and fatally, receive any less?

[Cooley Hurd]

20. There was no shortage of volunteers willing to go to Ground Zero...

...and dig thru the rubble for burned and mutilated corpses.

[Pacifist Patriot]

23. The same volunteers who collected blown to bits body parts...

that were bug-riddled and disease-carrying by the time they were all collected at the Trade Center?

I don't know why, but I've talked to people about this and they seem to have some weird idea that Ground Zero would have been somehow "cleaner." Fewer bodies, yes but many of the same risks. The stench and carnage was horrible.

[Spazito]

46. Actually, you are talking about surviving victims' loved ones

mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, grandmothers and grandfathers. To write them off as "bloated, rotten, bug-riddled, disease carrying bodies" is grossly offensive, imo.

[Helga Scow Stern]

11. I heard last night on CNN or MSNBC that some autopsies were

being performed. There was a tent set up with refrigerator trucks where they expected to be processing thousands of bodies.

[babylonsister]

18. Confirming mass graves; just heard on CNN. nt

[peekaloo]

24. Exactly. While phoning your reps & Senators today make this known!

:kick:

[Sydnie]

25. This is unacceptable - H had better not hear ONE of them say another

word about Saddam and his mass graves EVER AGAIN!

I agree with the thought posted up thread - they did dna tests on fingers and toes in NY, why should these poeple be any different? Those with insurance will be kept from filing claims because they will not be able to prove the death of their loved ones. Just as there were some scam artists that filed false claims after 9/11, there will be insurance companies that will refuse to honor the policies saying that these people might still be alive somewhere because there is no proof. Haven't these people been through enough?

FEMA is for land owners and businesses. FEMA won't give you a penny just because someone is missing and presumed dead. If there are people out there with policies, even the barest of face values, why should they be denied that relief?

[Barack_America]

26. To be honest, I don't see how autopsies on all these victims...

...could be done. I'm not sure that the signs of drowning vs. starvation could be determined with all of these bodies floating and decomposing in water for so long.

I don't want to be gruesome, but as a medical student, I'm afraid that the subtle physical findings that could distinguish between starvation and drowning will be lost.

What DOES need to be done is careful documentation of where these bodies are found (floating in streets vs. in attics). Not only is that the best clue regarding cause of death that we have, but probably the key to relatives learning of their fate. Not everyone will have dental records to compare to, but it's pretty obvious who that person is if they were found in their home.

[Barack_America]

27. Let me add that either way, the government is still responsible...

...for their deaths. It is the government's fault that the levees were not properly maintained, that there was no plan to evacuate those who could not evacuate themselves, and that aid arrived so late.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

28. Not true. Lung tissue would easily distinguish drowning

brain tissue could easily distinguish dehydration as could heart tissue. I've been in forensic medicine for 25 years on the legal end...

[Barack_America]

29. But is this true weeks after decomposition sets in??

I understand that this is what you look for normally, but are these findings reliable after this length of time with the conditions these bodies are sitting in?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

31. It's only one week as of yesterday..and some of these people

didn't die until Friday or Saturday

[Spazito]

48. Yes, they can definitively determine whether death occurred by

drowning or otherwise for a lengthy time after the death. It is called forensic science.

[sinkingfeeling]

30. This is not acceptable. Every person has the right to be identified

and it should be determined if they died directly from the storm or from Bush's neglience!! How do we stop this?

[McCamy Taylor]

32. Agree. * is scared to admit how many he killed through delay.

[Coventina]

33. NSMA, is there some sort of legal suit that could be brought?

An injunction? Anything to stop this before it happens?

This is like a Stalinist scheme. Unbelievable.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

40. I am not sure if anything can be done emergently

[smartvoter]

34. You are absolutely right. Nominated. nt

[Junkdrawer]

35. At the very least, autopsies of a statistically revelant sampling...

We need to know:

1.) Time of death

2.) Cause (drowning, starvation/dehydration, lack of medications) etc.

3.) Location of death

4.) Circumstances of death

[CountAllVotes]

52. 2.) Cause (drowning, starvation/dehydration, lack of medications) etc.

CAUSE yes, CAUSE .... any specific dieseases we might be trying to not care to admit to that might exist and might be communicable?

:kick:

[Hell Hath No Fury]

36. I agree completely....

A coroner would be able to tell if a person had drowned in the Katrina storm surge or had died later.

I want to know how many of those folks died waiting for help!!

[smartvoter]

37. I wonder how $$$ liability factors in to all of this. nt

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

39. I'm sure it was the driving force

It's cheaper to let people die than to rehabilitate them from injury and disease

[smartvoter]

42. Or give the families of victims legal ammo. nt

[mopinko]

38. how many will be weighted down and pushed out to sea?

that's what i want to know. my answer? all the ones who were shot by "law enforcement" whatever the hell that means any more.

[SOteric]

41. Propose this in the activism forum, NSMA

I'm sure you can rally some of us to write our congresscritters, maybe the Admins will even choose this as an official action.

[melody]

44. I know it's horrific, but...

We're talking tens of thousands of dead people. In the case of 9/11, the bodies were incinerated - there was no threat of disease. With this many dead people, authorities will be forced to use mass graves and possibly even cremation. That said, there's no reason they can't (and every reason that they should) take a represenative number of bodies (holy Christ, what a thing to have to say) and preserve them for a "thumbnail" of the causes of death.

[tedzbear]

45. They don't want to spend $ doing this because most victims were poor!

AND black. I hope the NAACP goes ballistic with this. The thought of mass graves is disgusting.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Peace Patriot]

49. What a rotten thing to say, William769! n/t

[Peace Patriot]

50. Reason for autopsies:

1. To establish criminal negligence, of which there is already considerable evidence. Death by storm? Death in the aftermath, of gov't neglect or other causes? If it is established that the Bush regime deliberately delayed aid, to strongarm Gov. Blanco into martial law (and for related purposes--greed is my guess), or if there were any other unjustifiable delays, then individuals should be prosecuted, and this is important evidence. (There was a doctor on Ophra today who spoke about dying people being taken to a morgue TO die--people dying IN the morgue, as deliberate policy--with no care, with no one to comfort them. TIME and PLACE of death should be chronicled, for this and other reasons.)

2. To assist families with insurance claims--the survivors are people who have lost everything--this is one of the few things they might be entitled to, that could help them recover. (--mass graves could be an insurance company plot, done for their benefit).

3. To establish if other crimes were committed, including murder and rape--by authorities or civilians. Mass graves could be covering up numerous crimes. The Bushites were the ones yakking about armed gangs and looters and chaos. If they think crimes were committed, how can they permit mass graves?

4. To comfort the survivors--so they know how their loved ones died, and IF they died, so they can have a funeral or closure of some kind.

5. For humanitarian reasons, and to show the compassion of the nation. Our country let many of these people die of dehydration, starvation, disease, injury, stress and by neglect of infrastructure. We owe each one of them a funeral.

-----

**Idea for the Sept. 24 protest. The thousand coffins were a very effective Iraq War protest (in New York, at the RNC). If they won't give them cause of death autopsies, and proper funerals and interment, then we should do it symbolically, to honor them, to apologize to their spirits, and to comfort the living.**

-----

Why mass graves? Why not cremation? Mass graves is such a horrible indignity, a final insult--seeming to equate with the Bushite attitude towards the poor, that they are negligible, of no account, not human. Cremation is not ideal, but is somewhat better--as a last rite. At least there would be no little parentless children imagining their parents' rotting remains amidst a mass of other decaying bodies underground. Cremation is more of a purification. --after the autopsies, of course.

[Misunderestimator]

51. ...

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

53. Yes. Autopsies for all, death certificates for all identified.

In another thread a DUer reported hearing (source uncited) that DNA samples would be collected from every person who died. I hope this is true for the sake of their survivors, but autopsies must be performed.

[Barack_America]

54. Remember, autopsy and identification are different...

One can be identified without a full autopsy.

I'm still researching how long the signs of drowning vs. starvation can be detected in a corpse (in response to replies above)

But again I would like to say that I hold the federal government accountable for all deaths whether by drowning or starvation!

[Bluebear]

55. KICK AND NOMINATED

[kdmorris]

56. Seen on CNN at 8:45 PM, but no link

Louisiana Governor Blanco will not allow mass graves. The spokesperson said there is NO WAY they will allow that to happen to Louisiana citizens. I think the person talking was the chief medical examiner. He was on the Paula Zahn show.