Will The N.O. Flood Walls Fail Again?

[KerryOn]

This is a question for all you civil engineers out there.

The storm surge of water from lake Pontchartrain is what caused the flood walls to fail. With water on both sides of the flood wall the pressure on the walls would be equalized. Now that they have started pumping water back into the lake, the flood walls will now see all the pressure on one side of the wall again.

If the wall was weakened I think there may be a good possibility that the flood walls could fail in another location. This would be a catastrophe in of its self, with all the rescue workers in New Orleans. (Kind of like the towers falling on rescue workers.)

What do you think? Anyone have an opinion?

[jody]

1. "Will The N.O. Flood Walls Fail Again?" YES! n/t

[whistle]

2. Maybe Dennis Hasterd has a point, maybe New Orleans can't

...be repaired. I hate to concede anything to the republicans, especially that huge tub of guts, but if the levees walls have been compromised it may be useless to try to hold that much water back using the old system.

[DoYouEverWonder]

3. The water is going out

the walls appear to be holding.

Plus it will be much easier to make repairs now that the water is going down and they aren't in the middle of a hurricane.

Don't believe everything the landgrabbers tell you.

They also said it would take 8 weeks to get ride of all the water. Now it's looking like two weeks.

[jody]

5. But the water is being pumped uphill. Why should taxpayers subsidize

rebuilding NO in a disaster prone area?

[Bridget Burke]

7. If we can pay for the war in Iraq....

We can afford to rebuild New Orleans. Many areas are disaster prone.

[jody]

13. Iraq aside, I don't support subsidizing rebuilding on disaster prone areas

If individuals want to gamble with their money and rebuild NO, OK but don't use taxes from people on minimum wage.

[DoYouEverWonder]

19. Spoken like a true Republican

Maybe we should build everything in the middle of Utah? Don't want to take any chances now do you?

[jody]

22. No, like a true Democrat who is very protective of taxes paid by the

working poor.

[DoYouEverWonder]

26. Oh that's a good excuse

Why don't we just cut out the tax breaks for the rich and then we won't have to tax the working poor?

[jody]

27. I'll go along with most of that as would most Dems I know. n/t

[DoYouEverWonder]

29. So then why don't you like spending money helping rebuild NO

About a million people call NO their home. Where else are they suppose to go? Group camps scattered around the country?

[jody]

32. IMO, the real estate developers will control rebuilding NO so that

most of the flood prone areas are rezoned for no housing, enough old buildings will be rebuilt to make it a viable tourist trap, and enough housing for the poor will be built on the fringes to provide servants, etc. for the wealthy.

Don't misunderstand, my wife and I loved NO, particularly such restaurants as Commanders Palace. I'm so sad that what I remember is gone forever. I just can't support using taxes from the poor to subsidize another tourist trap.

[DoYouEverWonder]

33. No building in the flood prone area?

Well that will cover most of the populated parts of the US.

Please get off it. Goodbye. You're wasting my time. Nice talking to you.

[jody]

34. The feeling is mutual.

:hi:

[FloridaPat]

8. When every citizen who is in a disaster prone area is moved out,

then I'll agree with you. Most of the country is in a disaster prone area.

[jody]

15. I agree and its time to stop subsidizing wealthy people with federal

storm and flood insurance to build on barrier islands and other disaster prone areas.

Any way you divide the bill, people on minimum wage subsidize the vacation retreats of the obscenely wealthy.

[El Supremo]

4. I'm a geologist not an engineer, but...

I really don't think the flood walls failed until they were overtopped. They then were eroded. The steel plates at the top were knocked out. The lake rose at least 20 ft. It is down to near sea level now. The city's water isn't that deep to cause a release of pressure when pumped out. Any other weakeness would not fail until another storm surge happened.

[FloridaPat]

10. That's correct. It was mentioned once, but everyone knew what a levee

was and no one knew what a flood wall was.

[KerryOn]

24. What you have said make perfect sense...

And the cities water level is low enough that it would not add that much more pressure to the flood wall on the lake side.

[karlrschneider]

28. Well, I'm an engineer, not a geologist and know that there's another

~62 pounds per square inch of pressure on the levee for every foot differential. They are simply earthen dams, with some steel reinforcement in any case. They do not have a stellar history over the last couple of centuries.

[KerryOn]

31. So then we are not talking about ....

... all that much more pressure. If the water was down on the containment side by 5 to 6 feet, then the additional pressure when the city is pumped out is not all that much, in comparisson to what it is probably designed for.

[karlrschneider]

40. Um, well, a little quick calculation: say 5 feet in elevation times 200'

long, that's 1000 ft^2, x 144 in^2 = about 144000 x 62 = ~9 million pounds of force. About 4500 tons. That is a constant 'push' combined with the effects of erosion which I have no way to calculate.

We shall see.

[bloom]

6. Of course it is "us" - liberals - who are saying

that Hurricanes are likely to increase in number and intensity because of global warming. So it doesn't seem all that great to build below sea level.

My idea - save all of the Historic buildings/areas - keep it as an historic town. And build a new "New Orleans" either upriver - above sea level - or on the north side of Lake Ponchartrain or both.

Another idea - if rebuilding New Orleans where it is - build it up - create an underground out of the current level a 'la Seattle - and build the street level higher.

[Bridget Burke]

9. This liberal says that New Orleans must be rebuilt.

After the Great Storm of 1900, the people of Galveston built a seawall & raised the whole city. Buildings, utilities, everything--raised on jacks while slush (sand & water) were pumped in.

[slackmaster]

12. You beat me to it by one minute

Great minds...

[slackmaster]

11. I think Galveston would be a better model than Seattle

They need to fill in all the parts of NO that are below sea level, bring them up to 15 feet or so.

They can use New Jersey as the source of fill dirt.

[bloom]

16. The interesting thing about Seattle

is being able to walk around in the underground as it is preserved.

I don't think Galveston's "underground" is. Of course - that would only be interesting in the more historic areas. Some areas could just be filled in.

OF course - It would be something to think about BEFORE carting off any extra fill that might be around.

[DoYouEverWonder]

20. It's not up to us, what to do with New Orleans

I do believe that should be up to the people of Lousiana. So much for States' rights?

[DELUSIONAL]

14. Holland knows how to do this -- maybe we should ask them.

[KerryOn]

17. I heard that the Netherlands....

... have offered to show us the correct way to build the flood walls and levees. They offered this is part of their disaster relief.

[amandabeech]

18. New Orleans and the area north to Baton Rouge is our biggest port

by tonnage. Half of our grain exports go through New Orleans, among other things. We import metal ores, bananas and coffee, as well as perhaps 20% of our imported oil by the LOOP offshore port and Port Fourchon. There many refineries, gas processing plants and important petrochemical plants in the area. Of course, Louisiana and the Gulf off its coast are major oil and gas producing areas--20% of our natural gas comes from there.

I'm among those who would like to see us drastically cut our oil and gas consumption, but I don't think that we are ready to get along now without New Orleans and Louisiana production.

Even without oil and gas, we need a port at or near the mouth of the Mississippi in order to take advantage of the energy-efficient water transport on the Mississippi River.

In order to support the port and oil and gas industries, workers must be present.

I would support downsizing southern Louisiana and New Orleans to that needed for the port, oil and gas industry and historic districts, and heavily protecting that.

[jody]

21. Rebuilding the port is a far cry from rebuilding a tourist trap called

the New-Old Orleans.

I don't see why people on minimum wage should have their taxes spent on rebuilding a tourist trap.

[bloom]

35. Some people appreciate History

That is why stuff is preserved in Greece and Rome and the Roman Wall in England, the Great Wall in China.

It's why Jamestown in preserved - the actual place where the buildings were as well as a simulated version. Of course there is Williamsburg.

Quebec City - the old part is awesome. I was just up there. It also could be called a "tourist trap".

The French Quarter could have been (could still be) called a tourist trap.

You don't have to go.


I don't think people making minimum wage pay much tax - but I am sure they appreciate your concern.

[jody]

37. But, but, I love the French Quarter particularly the "Court of Two Sisters

If rebuilt, I will surely go. Still I don't believe it should be done with government grants.

[bloom]

42. I think it is in the people's interest

to have significant historical places saved. Just like having National Parks.

And yes - using tax money. And being a place for everybody.

It's also why I would make the Gulfcoast that got wiped out into a National Park with few buildings. The shore would be for everybody's enjoyment. Not just the rich.

But also for the rest of us - and the crabs.


Your ideas sound very Libertarian.

[jody]

44. If you want to preserve significant historical sites and leave the rest

for some sort of National Park, then you have my support. What I object to is IMO the almost certainty that a few developers will use federal grants to develop a tinsel and glitter tourist trap.

My family has been in the U.S. for a long time and I treasure places that my ancestors and relatives frequented. I just don't like to see such places made into tourist traps.
:shrug:

[elare]

38. Anyone who calls New Orleans a "tourist trap"

has quite obviously never been there.

[jody]

39. I've been there many, many times and I stand by my opinion. n/t

[Just Me]

23. We are the richest, most resourceful, most powerful nation on earth.

Right? :shrug: Or WRONG?

[KerryOn]

25. Well....

Resourceful - Yes
Powerful - Yes
Richest - NO (We are in dept up to OUR EYEBALLS, thanks to Bush!)

[karlrschneider]

30. I'm not even sure about the first two any more...

We don't seem to have the resources (the sort you refer to...I understand that) to keep our jobs in country. There are NO consumer electronics manufactured here nowadays, other than a handful of niche products, and as to "powerful"?...well, we can't seem to 'defeat' the 'insurgents' in Iraq (where we're only about 100 away from losing 2,000 troops.)

[ForrestGump]

36. New Orleans wasn't always below sea level

It sank as a result of human activity -- draining the swamps, basically. Yep, same old story. Like Florida, southern Louisiana has long been an environmental catastrophe.

So perhaps we shouldn't build in its low-lying areas, at least not residences...those places are history now, anyway, so build anew on higher ground. The French Quarter and other areas of tourist or historic significance seem mostly intact so why build neighborhoods again below sea level when the whole reason for those areas being so low was directly anthropogenic?

The bigger worry is who is going to do the rebuilding, where they're going to do it, who they're going to 'let in' and what the hell are the massive numbers of (widely dispersed, for now) displaced people supposed to do in the years before rebuilding is complete. The people who lived there -- many, and perhaps most -- have lost everything. They're not going home any time soon, so will they be forgotten by an uncaring country as life goes on over the next couple of years? They've got to find jobs and homes elsewhere, for now...is it really likely that they'll be back, or even able to afford the cost of buying back into a brand-spanking new residential New Orleans? It's horrible beyond comprehension, the possible fate of these people who once were part of a community, and a fairly unique one at that.

[karlrschneider]

41. And who is going to pay for the insurance on the rebuilt structures?

Maybe all of us.
:eyes:

[jody]

43. FEMA's "National Flood Insurance Program"?

"National Flood Insurance Program"